Pin Placement

Forgive me if this in the wrong section, we acquired a new Superintendent for the first time in many years and he seems to have a more demented view on pins than anywhere I've ever played? Is there a guideline for not placing pins in the middle or upper 2/3 of significant slopes? We have a few pins where it's our actual ball buster pin and you putt up to the pin and it rolls back 10' every time until you make it, and that's in our local am tournament. Is this copacetic or should I seek a way to approach the SI and address the pins in a polite and courteous manner? (this is noted by many of the men's golf association)

Thanks for helping navigate these murky waters,

Edit: I am fine with tough but fair pins, but not looking to play mini golf essentially either.

There are no actual rules regarding pin placements but you may want to suggest he brush up on the USGA guidelines: https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=143&Rule=16

Be sure you approach the situation realizing and communicating that USGA has only guidelines and no set rules or requirements on pin positions. Don't go in yelling about rules and such as there are none. In this situation, pace of play could be brought up.

Thank you both for your input, pace of play would be a good tactic to use.

Does the super actually place the pins or does he delegate it to one of the crew?

Pace of play is a good point to make but somebody in authority (Pro or GM) should have the talk with the super to give him some guidelines (no slopes, distance from edges, etc). Mistakes happen every once in a while, remember they are doing this early in the AM, but if it's a consistent issue then it needs to be addressed.

when i was a kid my buddy and i were cutting cups for the day and really only had a 1,2,3 front middle , back green sheet. Well this day was the club championship and we cut the cup on top of a bowl cap on 18. The boss comes in and says you two better hope the championship doesnt come down to 18. we paid closer attention after that.

We had a hole last week that was same..

If you are not putting uphill, it will roll 15 feet down the slope no matter what..

My group was not happy 3 putting from 4 feet away..

ROFL, sometimes the green doesn't give you much.

Back in HS, I set cups for the local private. On hole 4, 400 yard par 4, the only "fair" area on the green was front left, maybe 20% of the green. The rest of the green was sloped enough that you almost guaranteed a 15 cap a 3 putt if they were above the hole.

One day, I decided to put the pin on the slope. Later, I got a two putt par, no issue. The next day, the GM/Pro told me to never do that again as a pro had four putted the green and let him know about it. I said, "Steve, what's the problem? I got a two putt par." He didn't or couldn't say anything.

10 years later, the 4 putt pro became my swing coach for a few years. He didn't recall the 4 putt when I brought it up to him, LOL.

Short memory...

On a course I used play league at there is a green where it is supposedly "grandfathered" in to the "new" green slope guidelines (no idea about when or what these guidelines are). The prudent play was to leave you approach short and chip up. A down hill putt was guaranteed a 10 to 15 footer.

What kind of club is it?

Private mention it to the green committee and the chair for them to bring it up at the next meeting.

Public go to pro shop (head pro or GM) .

Depending on the person you could shoot them an email/call/visit (but not unannounced) but personally (which means if it was me) I don’t wanna hear about it from just anyone out of the blue if that makes. Plus I would reckon he’s normally out by 1530 so lest you go in early, which he’s probably busy.

How long has it been? I’ve been at my place a month and had some trouble setting some pins (best way to get a feel for your new greens though is setup everyday for a couple weeks). There’s subtle slopes that you don’t know about or can’t really see until you’ve been around a few times and understand the property a bit better. And I’ve been doing this for 25 years, and play to a plus 3.8 so I understand golf a little bit. My old club in Jupiter I could tell you the average grade, perc rate, salinity index, VWC%, average soil temperature, and square footage of every green on the course, now not so much. So it takes a little time is all. Hope it gets better.

Setting cups can be difficult on some greens, but you should never have a ball get to the hole and roll backwards. If this is truly happening you should talk to your head pro. This is the correct avenue because now the pro can go out and check the location to see if it is truly unfair. The pro will then relay that to the super who can then fix the situation.

The big problem with cup location complaints is how often someone will hit it above the hole, try to make it instead of lagging, and proceed to smash it 12 feet by and three putt. It’s a lot easier for some golfers to blame the location and not their approach. This is why you go to the pro. He will go out and putt around the pin and will also have the skill and knowledge to determine the legitimacy of the pin. The super will respect that decision much more than a golfer of unknown skill being angry about a pin placement. You just got to go through the right channels. That’s how I would approach the situation.

I’ll tell you my hole location mistake I made (I set our holes for competitions). On one hole I set the cup a few feet from a ridge and rolled balls to it from every angle. From 15-10’ I could find a speed that would kill the putt at the hole. (Or within reason).

That was all well and good, but then the wind came up and the sun came out and by the afternoon the course was dry as a bone. Meanwhile the green had been cut and rolled. I had USGA’ed myself and it was impossible to keep a ball within 10’ and 50/50 to keep it on the green. Great job me!

At our club you’d direct these things to the manager who would pass it along to the super who would pass it along to me. Then I’d go out with my putter and some balls and have a look. We really don’t take it lightly as unfair holes = unhappy golfers = they take their money elsewhere.

'An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.'

Lol. Good luck with that on the 14th at Rye Hill. The only relatively flat part of the green is the top right corner. The rest of the green slopes at twenty to thirty degrees. There's large areas of the 15th that are similar. I saw someone putt past the hole..then down the slope and over the edge into the worst bunker on the course. It took them two shots to get back on the green because they had to come out of the bunker sideways.

There have been numerous threads on this topic over the past 12 years. It's a bug-a-boo of mine as I have witnessed the carnage of bad judgment numerous times. In one of the classic threads, a member from Pinehurst posted something to the effect that the USGA was there looking at #2 for one of the Opens, and they were asked - as long as they were there - to look at one of the other courses as this course had old school greens with big back to front tilt. The USGA reported back that if they had those greens at 10'+ on the stimp they would have **zero** hole-able locations on numerous greens. You have to remember that some of these courses were designed 80-100 years ago. Ponder that. You basically have three choices:

1. Keep the greens at a reasonable speed considering the design/tilt/contours.

2. Reconstruction. (At big expense.)

3. Make 'em fast and have a clown show.

This pdf by a course architect is really good on this topic:

https://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/2000s/2008/080721.pdf

One last point - bad hole locations wreak havoc on the handicap system. The course will not play to it's rating and scores will be inflated.

> @andrue said:

> 'An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.'

>

> Lol. Good luck with that on the 14th at Rye Hill. The only relatively flat part of the green is the top right corner. The rest of the green slopes at twenty to thirty degrees. There's large areas of the 15th that are similar. I saw someone putt past the hole..then down the slope and over the edge into the worst bunker on the course. It took them two shots to get back on the green because they had to come out of the bunker sideways.

To me 20-30 degrees for majority of the green area sounds rather peculiar but I take your word for it. In such greens the only possibility is to keep stimp so low that fair playing can be provided.

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @andrue said:

> > 'An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.'

> >

> > Lol. Good luck with that on the 14th at Rye Hill. The only relatively flat part of the green is the top right corner. The rest of the green slopes at twenty to thirty degrees. There's large areas of the 15th that are similar. I saw someone putt past the hole..then down the slope and over the edge into the worst bunker on the course. It took them two shots to get back on the green because they had to come out of the bunker sideways.

>

> To me 20-30 degrees for majority of the green area sounds rather peculiar but I take your word for it. In such greens the only possibility is to keep stimp so low that fair playing can be provided.

At least it's sloping back down to front so that the green tends to catch incoming balls with low back spin. But yeah, it's an annoying green to putt on. Even a one foot putt needs to take account of the break unless you dare to give the ball a good smack and the consequences of doing that and missing the hole don't bear thinking about.

It's [the 13th](http://ryehill.w1gcms.club/player.htm "the 13th") although on that animation it looks like there's a plateau in the middle which there isn't. But once you've got through hedge gap you can see the entire length of the green because of that slope. More often than not I end up having to chip on from the right and that's no fun because I'm a bump and run merchant :-/

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @andrue said:

> > 'An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.'

> >

> > Lol. Good luck with that on the 14th at Rye Hill. The only relatively flat part of the green is the top right corner. The rest of the green slopes at twenty to thirty degrees. There's large areas of the 15th that are similar. I saw someone putt past the hole..then down the slope and over the edge into the worst bunker on the course. It took them two shots to get back on the green because they had to come out of the bunker sideways.

>

> To me 20-30 degrees for majority of the green area sounds rather peculiar but I take your word for it. In such greens the only possibility is to keep stimp so low that fair playing can be provided.

23-30 degrees wouldn't hold a ball at fairway height, let alone green surface. A 20 degree slope is a massive slope, 30 is even worse. There is no way a ball is staying anywhere on that green if that is even close to correct slope.

This is 30 degrees !!!

Was the mechanic cutting cups? That's what happened at the course I worked at, the guy cutting the cups didn't play golf so he would end up with some real goofy spots. When I cut them, I carried a ball with me and would roll it at the hole from different directions to see if it would be reasonable. Some days it is impossible if the wind comes up though. We also had a couple greens that we couldn't cut a back cup once things dried out. People would complain that the black pin was closer to the middle (shrug). At least there it would stay on the green.

For reference, the PGA Tour and LPGA Tour are unlikely to put a hole where there is a slope of 2 degrees or more. This is easily measured with a Breakmaster or with an iPhone. It's one of the guidelines that I use for selecting hole locations for competitions.

There is a chart somewhere(?) that relates green speed and slope and what combinations should not be used.

> @bigred90gt said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @andrue said:

> > > 'An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.'

> > >

> > > Lol. Good luck with that on the 14th at Rye Hill. The only relatively flat part of the green is the top right corner. The rest of the green slopes at twenty to thirty degrees. There's large areas of the 15th that are similar. I saw someone putt past the hole..then down the slope and over the edge into the worst bunker on the course. It took them two shots to get back on the green because they had to come out of the bunker sideways.

> >

> > To me 20-30 degrees for majority of the green area sounds rather peculiar but I take your word for it. In such greens the only possibility is to keep stimp so low that fair playing can be provided.

>

> 23-30 degrees wouldn't hold a ball at fairway height, let alone green surface. A 20 degree slope is a massive slope, 30 is even worse. There is no way a ball is staying anywhere on that green if that is even close to correct slope.

As I wrote, it sounds rather peculiar, but who am I to say as I have never seen the place..?

As a sidenote, I was with my family in Madeira early this spring and there are quite steep streets. In my phone there is an inclinometer and I measured some of the steepest places as well as our 'home street'. We all estimated the angle at least twice too steep in all places. I guess that is the case with andrue as well.

Thanks for all of the input, one of the trouble cups was changed by the super after receiving many complaints (was a ball buster pin location for the end of year tourney). There are still many troubling positions where players cannot get the ball to stop when putting from below the pin up to the cup and it rolls back down the slope. Pace of play has been brought up after much slower play the previous few weekends and nothing has been addressed aside from one blatantly ridiculous spot. Will take some pictures of the spot this week to give some context.

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @bigred90gt said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @andrue said:

> > > > 'An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.'

> > > >

> > > > Lol. Good luck with that on the 14th at Rye Hill. The only relatively flat part of the green is the top right corner. The rest of the green slopes at twenty to thirty degrees. There's large areas of the 15th that are similar. I saw someone putt past the hole..then down the slope and over the edge into the worst bunker on the course. It took them two shots to get back on the green because they had to come out of the bunker sideways.

> > >

> > > To me 20-30 degrees for majority of the green area sounds rather peculiar but I take your word for it. In such greens the only possibility is to keep stimp so low that fair playing can be provided.

> >

> > 23-30 degrees wouldn't hold a ball at fairway height, let alone green surface. A 20 degree slope is a massive slope, 30 is even worse. There is no way a ball is staying anywhere on that green if that is even close to correct slope.

>

> As I wrote, it sounds rather peculiar, but who am I to say as I have never seen the place..?

>

> As a sidenote, I was with my family in Madeira early this spring and there are quite steep streets. In my phone there is an inclinometer and I measured some of the steepest places as well as our 'home street'. We all estimated the angle at least twice too steep in all places. I guess that is the case with andrue as well.

You might see that on places that have tiered greens perhaps. A 20* slop drops 9" on a 25" run. For aimpoint use s that translat s to a 36% slip so you'll have to borrow some hands.

Many courses have greens divided up into seven "7" sections. One section for each day of the week. Management rotates the pin within it's given section. Some sections don't have the kindest pin position choices. PS: if a course subscribes to satellite yardage in carts, verify with management, whether or not the yardage to the pin is nothing more than yardage to the center of a given section.

> @"mark m" said:

> There have been numerous threads on this topic over the past 12 years. It's a bug-a-boo of mine as I have witnessed the carnage of bad judgment numerous times. In one of the classic threads, a member from Pinehurst posted something to the effect that the USGA was there looking at #2 for one of the Opens, and they were asked - as long as they were there - to look at one of the other courses as this course had old school greens with big back to front tilt. The USGA reported back that if they had those greens at 10'+ on the stimp they would have **zero** hole-able locations on numerous greens. You have to remember that some of these courses were designed 80-100 years ago. Ponder that. You basically have three choices:

> 1. Keep the greens at a reasonable speed considering the design/tilt/contours.

> 2. Reconstruction. (At big expense.)

> 3. Make 'em fast and have a clown show.

> This pdf by a course architect is really good on this topic:

> https://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/2000s/2008/080721.pdf

> One last point - bad hole locations wreak havoc on the handicap system. The course will not play to it's rating and scores will be inflated.

Interesting article. Maybe members should brag on how playable their greens are rather than how fast.

OT, but BNGL, what is your new club?

See here for info

http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/2000s/2008/080721.pdf

One of my tournament leagues played a very popular daily fee course a couple of years back. I was in the 2nd group out. Standing in the fairway, waiting to hit our 2nd shots into #1, we were all wondering what was taking so long up on #1 green. Well, when we finally got there, we realized why. In my foursome, there was a 3putt (me fortunately), 2 4putts and a 5putt. The pin was cut on a side slope and stopping the ball anywhere near the hole was impossible. When we finished for the day, I went into the pro shop and said to the pro "Man, you are going to hear some complaints about the pin placement on #1". He told me he had already heard about it but there was another small tournament that went off ahead of us and by the time he knew about it...too late to do anything. Could not move it once play had started. But...everyone had to play it so one of those "it is what it is". Play and go on.

> @andrue said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @andrue said:

> > > 'An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.'

> > >

> > > Lol. Good luck with that on the 14th at Rye Hill. The only relatively flat part of the green is the top right corner. The rest of the green slopes at twenty to thirty degrees. There's large areas of the 15th that are similar. I saw someone putt past the hole..then down the slope and over the edge into the worst bunker on the course. It took them two shots to get back on the green because they had to come out of the bunker sideways.

> >

> > To me 20-30 degrees for majority of the green area sounds rather peculiar but I take your word for it. In such greens the only possibility is to keep stimp so low that fair playing can be provided.

> At least it's sloping back down to front so that the green tends to catch incoming balls with low back spin. But yeah, it's an annoying green to putt on. Even a one foot putt needs to take account of the break unless you dare to give the ball a good smack and the consequences of doing that and missing the hole don't bear thinking about.

> It's [the 13th](http://ryehill.w1gcms.club/player.htm "the 13th") although on that animation it looks like there's a plateau in the middle which there isn't. But once you've got through hedge gap you can see the entire length of the green because of that slope. More often than not I end up having to chip on from the right and that's no fun because I'm a bump and run merchant :-/

Do you have ANY idea how steep even 20* is ???

Here a protractor at 20*. Do you think there's ANY chance a ball could come to rest at that angle ?


:o