Chamblee: Every player should leave flagstick in

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolina 28592Members Posts: 28,592
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    probably true too... But still... has the rule effected sandbagging ? no.... so no real point in my opinion ... i have 3 solo 9s this week that wold lower my handicap because it would kick off 2 terrible T scores i hanging from the mid summer... but cant post them .
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  • ObeeObee  3905ClubWRX Posts: 3,905
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    probably true too... But still... has the rule effected sandbagging ? no.... so no real point in my opinion ... i have 3 solo 9s this week that wold lower my handicap because it would kick off 2 terrible T scores i hanging from the mid summer... but cant post them .




    I would actually say that it will make it a bit harder on sandbaggers. If you take away one of their avenues for 'bagging, that's a good thing.



    The reality, though, is that most clubs have no way of policing whether or not you are posting rounds you shouldn't, so it won't have much affect. And with the ability to post online, it's a losing battle to try to police sandbaggers.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolina 28592Members Posts: 28,592
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    Obee wrote:



    probably true too... But still... has the rule effected sandbagging ? no.... so no real point in my opinion ... i have 3 solo 9s this week that wold lower my handicap because it would kick off 2 terrible T scores i hanging from the mid summer... but cant post them .




    I would actually say that it will make it a bit harder on sandbaggers. If you take away one of their avenues for 'bagging, that's a good thing.



    The reality, though, is that most clubs have no way of policing whether or not you are posting rounds you shouldn't, so it won't have much affect. And with the ability to post online, it's a losing battle to try to police sandbaggers.




    Agree there. Allowing self posting anywhere is the root. issue.
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user Florida 6045Members Posts: 6,045
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    probably true too... But still... has the rule effected sandbagging ? no....




    Seriously my brother, how could you possibly KNOW that ?!?!?!
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  • soregongolfersoregongolfer Roseburg, OR 1444Members Posts: 1,444
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    Sandbaggers can make up a score and post it online. Showing up to the course is optional. Sandbagging is rampant at my club and the owners stated, "If you can't beat them, join them." It's seriously a wink wink, nudge nudge situation.
    Posted:
  • daegyudaegyu  236Members Posts: 236
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    I absolutely LOVE the sound of a ball clinking around in the cup after it's been holed. I absolutely HATE the sound of a ball clanking off a flagstick, make or miss. The visual doesn't bother me as much as I thought it would but I don't think I will ever get used to the sound. Like most things in life, the hole is better naked.
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user Florida 6045Members Posts: 6,045
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    Sandbaggers can make up a score and post it online. Showing up to the course is optional. Sandbagging is rampant at my club and the owners stated, "If you can't beat them, join them." It's seriously a wink wink, nudge nudge situation.




    Hopefully that will stop, or at least be slowed down a bit next Jan 1 with the beginning of the new World Handicapping System. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolina 28592Members Posts: 28,592
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    nsxguy wrote:



    probably true too... But still... has the rule effected sandbagging ? no....




    Seriously my brother, how could you possibly KNOW that ?!?!?!




    Well. I get what you’re saying.



    But here’s how I look at it. I don’t “ know “ anything except what I see myself. I myself have met a few more this summer , and the same old ones are still doing it. Can’t see any decline.



    There’s really no way to know . Some clubs are good and people think sandbagging is rare. A lot of clubs let it go on to keep membership majority happy , and the honest players think everyone is a bagger. In each world both are true.



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  • soregongolfersoregongolfer Roseburg, OR 1444Members Posts: 1,444
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    nsxguy wrote:



    Sandbaggers can make up a score and post it online. Showing up to the course is optional. Sandbagging is rampant at my club and the owners stated, "If you can't beat them, join them." It's seriously a wink wink, nudge nudge situation.




    Hopefully that will stop, or at least be slowed down a bit next Jan 1 with the beginning of the new World Handicapping System. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />




    I'm frustrated with it and it has really shown up in my scores. I've gone for a 3 to a 13. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
    Posted:
  • fairways4lifefairways4life  1556Members Posts: 1,556
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    daegyu wrote:


    I absolutely LOVE the sound of a ball clinking around in the cup after it's been holed. I absolutely HATE the sound of a ball clanking off a flagstick, make or miss. The visual doesn't bother me as much as I thought it would but I don't think I will ever get used to the sound. Like most things in life, the hole is better naked.




    Fox has been putting microphones in the cups during the US Open to capture the sound of the ball falling in and blasting it through the audio (although I secretly suspect that the sounds are artificial and triggered by the push of a button. But I'm a conspiracy theorist). It's very "video game" sounding on the broadcast and each one sounds suspiciously the same. So we'll see what it sounds like this year at Pebble when someone holes one with the flag in. The Fox producers will now need two buttons -- a flag in and a flag out -- to make their little sound effects lol.
    Posted:
  • mds5062mds5062  78Members Posts: 78
    Joined:  edited Jan 10, 2019 10:15am #192
    I've been playing with the flag in for every casual round after work due to laziness and continue to plan on doing so now in my money/official rounds. The main thing I found was there putts that used to dip in and roll out no longer do so, they get wedged and your putt is in. The occasional rocket putt from far away helps to, of course when it doesn't hit the pin and bounce out. The only time I found it distracting was when it was very windy and it was moving more than usual in my peripheral vision. Other than that, it is a big advantage in my opinion but I don't really see the time saver considering it takes a total of 10 seconds to pull it and put it back in.
    Posted:
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  • GolfChannelGolfChannel Orlando, Florida 2234Members Posts: 2,234
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    Most of the statistics generated that would be important would largely be dependant on the particular golfer. Really, anything we see statistically is just an indication of whether or not you should test the method yourself.



    I know that I always leave the pin in the hole. I have for the last few months. I have no concern about deflection because my speed control is quite good. As others have said above, I have holed more putts mainly because of that burn the edge and out putt which now more often than not gets caught by the flag and now counts as a made putt.
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  • 20six20six  572Members Posts: 572
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    Chamblee might very well be correct, but I doubt that many tour pros follow his advice on much of anything.
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  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99  4444Members Posts: 4,444
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    20six wrote:


    Chamblee might very well be correct, but I doubt that many tour pros follow his advice on much of anything.




    They still have their caddie trend the pin.
    Posted:
  • goinlow67goinlow67  29Members Posts: 29
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    RMGC_NV wrote:


    There's a clip on GC where Chamblee says he did "the research" and concluded that every player should leave the flagstick in. Naturally there is no mention or explanation as to what research he is actually referring to. Anyone know?
    Posted:
  • goinlow67goinlow67  29Members Posts: 29
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    Iowa here, but I played last weekend because we had decent weather. I liked leaving the flag in mainly because it seems to make the hole and putt more three dimensional. I like the look and hope the players I’m paired with choose to leave it in because it certainly has the possibility of speeding up play.
    Posted:
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  • BarfolomewBarfolomew #worstWRXer  1668Members Posts: 1,668
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    Chamblee love train wrecks
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  • andrueandrue  1372Members Posts: 1,372
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    Obee wrote:


    First round today with the new rules. We played with the flag IN on pretty much all first putts outside 30 feet. It absolutely sped play up. By how much, I don't know. But there were at least 6 or 7 times during our round where I was the first to reach a green, no one was there yet to take the flag, and I putted. It was pretty great, actually. Then, when we were all closer to the hole, we took it out.
    My mate and I have been doing that for years. Usually we arrive at the green together but if one of us has to walk around to get to their ball the other will often putt with the flag in. I have also left the flag in when playing solo for years out of sheer laziness.



    The only affect I've noticed is that on excessive overshoots hitting the pin will typically leave the ball a lot closer to the hole. But I'm a dropper and am far more likely to leave the ball short so that benefit doesn't help me much. Overall I don't think pin in or out makes any difference to me so I'll do whatever is most convenient.
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  • cfunk11cfunk11  271Members Posts: 271
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    The first question I would have has to do with having less foot traffic around the hole. If you have one less person walking to the hole to pull the flag out per group doesn't that lesson the amount of deformation around the hole. If there is 50 groups that come through a day that is 50 less sets of feet tracking across the green. Maybe it makes a difference maybe it doesn't. I think of the greens are wet and soft it might make a difference. Plus the acutual ack of pulling the the pin when it doesn't want to slide out. I seen guys jerk the pin hard enough to make me worry the cup would lip up.



    Second, can leaving the pin in be used as a visual aid, especially for lag putting. Any visual reference helps me. Instead of putting at a 3" inch hole 60' away, you have a pin to help.

    Posted:
  • callawayjaycallawayjay Goofiest Left Handed Swing Ever  1657Members Posts: 1,657
    Joined:  edited Jan 14, 2019 12:04am #201
    My 2 round test tells me to leave it in. It changes the perspective and you definitely do hit the putts firmer and if anything if changes the mindset of the putt. One of my good friends who struggles with the yips seemed to putt a lot more firm and confident with it in. We play a side game that any putt made outside the length of the flag for par or better is $10 from each player. I made 5 last round
    Posted:
  • GolfjackGolfjack All about the rotation  1262Members Posts: 1,262
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    My 2 round test tells me to leave it in. It changes the perspective and you definitely do hit the putts firmer and if anything if changes the mindset of the putt. One of my good friends who struggles with the yips seemed to putt a lot more firm and confident with it in. We play a side game that any putt made outside the length of the flag for par or better is $10 from each player. I made 5 last round




    So you took the flag out to measure it? Kidding!



    Anyway had my first 2019 round, and most of the time left it in. It's just a lot of asking do you want it in or out. I prefer it in, just a bit awkward on short putts the flag feels like it's in my face.
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  • PowerCobra98PowerCobra98  416Members Posts: 416
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    I play alone 99% of the time. I have always left the flag in as it always seemed pointless to remove it because it simply takes longer and lengthens a round. The 1% of the time I play with somebody else and they pull the flag it always bugged me because I was so used to putting with the flag in. It was always a rule I chose not to follow because it seemed pointless to remove the flag. Now I don't have to be a scofflaw anymore for not removing it. Feels good knowing I'll be a law-abiding golfer again.
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  • steve76tsteve76t  33Members Posts: 33
    Joined:  edited Jan 16, 2019 1:54pm #204
    I've read many of the posts in the thread but not all so this may have already been mentioned...



    I play nearly all of my golf on public/municipal courses. Some have much better hole conditions than others. At those "others" many flag sticks have quite a significant lean while in the hole. I do plan to leave the flag stick in more times than not. However, if that lean cannot be corrected before I putt I will be taking the flag stick out. Especially on windy days where is moving back n forth.



    Oh, with the flag stick in I like that can putt more aggressively. On short putts, anything under 10 foot, I'll just aim at the stick & hit the putt more firmly than I would have without it.
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    Take it as you will









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    Here is a screen shot of the results if link is removed or you can't view it:

    DSZebPAl.png





    I won't be taking it as gospel, but I'm going to try leaving the pin in this year. The evidence seems to point that it will at least help, and should almost never hurt.
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  • russian7russian7  2560Members Posts: 2,560
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    GMR wrote:


    The last point you have crossed out above--the flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim--would be my #1 motivating factor in doing this. I find that on the practice putting green my make % is significantly higher on shorter putts when I'm too lazy to take the flag out, and I attribute that largely to having a better more precise aiming point. That said I have no intention of being the annoying guy in the group who always asks for the flag to be put back in, but if the group I was playing in wanted to leave it in all the time I'm more than OK with that.




    U agree it gives a precise aim point an I make way more
    Posted:
  • soregongolfersoregongolfer Roseburg, OR 1444Members Posts: 1,444
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    steve76t wrote:


    I've read many of the posts in the thread but not all so this may have already been mentioned...



    I play nearly all of my golf on public/municipal courses. Some have much better hole conditions than others. At those "others" many flag sticks have quite a significant lean while in the hole. I do plan to leave the flag stick in more times than not. However, if that lean cannot be corrected before I putt I will be taking the flag stick out. Especially on windy days where is moving back n forth.



    Oh, with the flag stick in I like that can putt more aggressively. On short putts, anything under 10 foot, I'll just aim at the stick & hit the putt more firmly than I would have without it.




    You make a good point. At my local goat track, the pins all have a big lean thanks to a storm we had a few weeks ago. The part of the cup where the pins go in were stretched out and I'm sure they'll remain that way until they change them (which could be years.)
    Posted:
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  • OldTomMorrisOldTomMorris Edinburgh, Scotland 3093Members Posts: 3,093
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    When interviewed yesterday after his round on the ET Lee Westwood make an interesting point when asked about putting with the flag in. He said he will use it as a depth perception aid on long putts but otherwise its as before. He pointed out players remove the flag for a short-range "makable" chip so why now start putting with the flag in. I see his logic but I also note the data from the experiments.
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  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker  2331Members Posts: 2,331
    Joined:  edited Jan 17, 2019 5:01am #209
    I feel like as an aim point it will be good, but I will lose touch/sensation for proper make speeds at shorter lengths. The less capable I am of dying the ball into the hole at proper speed, the tougher putting on break near the hole will be. Not only that, you've gotta hit the hole for this data to work. Would you rather hit the hole for guaranteed make, running the chance for a 9' comebacker, or try for the hole and leave yourself a makeable second?



    I'd also like to see data for green speeds that stimp like 8' for those runout footages, the ball's gonna be going a lot faster nearer the hole. On slow greens you'd have to be a clown to run the ball 9' by. Pin in on slow greens might be a hindrance. Long range yes, short range rely on putting skill, not ram-jam tactics.
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  • MattP66MattP66 ENGLAND 32Members Posts: 32
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    it may be different here in the UK but the general view seems to be that if u would have had the pin attended then we can just leave it in, same for the times when its 50/50 between leaving it in and having it out, now its mostly just left in. but from what I've seen most people still pull it out same as they would have done before.

    with the new handicap system and cheating or sandbagging, in the uk only at the moment only competition scores can qualify for handicapping however this is due to change with the new world handicap system so I can see this kind of thing becoming more prevalent, compared to now where it is very difficult to sandbag because on the present system you have to throw away 20 winning chances for every one chance you can gain from it.
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user Florida 6045Members Posts: 6,045
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    MattP66 wrote:


    it may be different here in the UK but the general view seems to be that if u would have had the pin attended then we can just leave it in, same for the times when its 50/50 between leaving it in and having it out, now its mostly just left in. but from what I've seen most people still pull it out same as they would have done before.




    I've played 5 or 6 rounds under the new flagstick rule and people are slow to change. They pretty much do what they're used to doing and "automatically" pull the flag.



    If the flag's in at the time I'm leaving it in pretty much all the time except when it's leaning towards me. But on shorter putts, if the flag's already been taken out for someone else's putt, I'll often just leave it out to save a little time unless it's a slick downhill breaker - then I'll have it put back in.



    As an aside, as we well know, people can be pretty impressionable and I think a lot of higher handicappers may follow the lead of the lower handicapper(s). If the lower guys leave it in, I believe in a lot of cases, the higher guys are more likely to leave it in. They may even feel "silly" asking for it to be taken out when a better player just leaves it in.



    And certainly, if the guy who is putting first (furthest away) is ready to go and the flag's still in, even if he's a "Please take it out" guy he'll more than likely putt before someone asks if he wants it out.



    Once he starts doing that he's likely to leave it in for closer distances.



    In the groups I play nowadays in I'm often the low 'capper and this is what I've been seeing so far. image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />
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