Blade users thread (NO DEBATING CLUBHEADS! NO Buy Sell Trade!)

[bladehunter]

lock it down????

 

ok, well, whatever.

 

Search "blades vs cavity backs" you will see what I mean.

[DeNinny]

Great post!

 

LOL I just about have the head pro and three assistant pros at my home course cleansed of the marketing BS that is the known "science" of "forgiveness". It is the biggest sham in golf.

 

And at the very least the lead design engineers of "forgiving" iron manufacturers know this. They know the overall dispersion and workability of a CB is worse than with a blade (all other things equal). They know the theory is true, and they have proven it statistically with robot and monitor data. LOL but they won't ever share this knowledge and data. It would undercut the "science" of "forgiveness" which is all predicated on the FALSE PREMISE that the clubhead can be treated as a free floating body at impact. And then from this false premise, comes the whole CB HALF-TRUTH "theory" of perimeter weighting and high clubhead MOI which is effectively negated given the clubhead support is provided by the shaft! There is no way or theory and law of physics that supports that the clubhead is a free floating body. And anybody making this Word not allowedumption really needs to take a physics or structural engineering class. And furthermore what makes it all ironic is that the physics of thinning the face wall is directly tied to the perimeter weighting. So the more you try to justify perimeter weighting as being "forgiving", the more the science is also making the club less workable and less precise. But again all that is presented is the beneficial physics of "twist less" which is founded on a false premise.

 

We play a carney game. Don't be the 'mark'. Play blades.

 

in theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they are not.

 

golf is not played by robots. trying to translate robotic testing to what equipment works best for a human of limited ability has a very narrow scope of usefulness. determining the best golf club for an individual falls outside of this scope.

 

further, your declaration that the clubhead is not a free floating body, but instead is stabilized by the shaft, goes against my understanding of the golf swing and ball flight. if we accept your premise as true, then the clubface would rotate open during its brief period of time it's in contact with the ball. and if that's true, we would have to strike the ball with a closed clubface to make the ball go straight, which i've never heard before.

 

all that matters is what happens during the half a millisecond the ball is in contact with the face. keep in mind that the momentum of the club and face rotation is already in the direction of the toe passing the heel. looking up the force of the head onto the ball, its in the order of thousands of pounds. i have a hard time believing that a 1.6oz golf ball has any affect on an object striking it with thousands of pounds of force.

 

yes, great....a fraction of a mm variation across the face strike to strike with a blade may result in less dispersion than the same variation with a CB or whatever, but as i said before...golfers aren't robots. scratch players aren't robots, and tour players aren't robots. how that weight is distributed in the head is important and does make a difference in the actual playing of the game.

 

The shaft is what holds the clubface square during that milliseconds of time. This is guaranteed regardless of what you may think. Without it, the clubhead would wildly spin and the ball would go nowhere. The attachment is what structurally holds it square and by impact it is already twisted a little due to acceleration of the clubhead so it is already structurally strong enough to resist impact with the ball. That is why it doesn't twist open that much from impact.

 

You can take a clubhead without a shaft attached and freely twist it with your hands without much effort. That is because a free floating clubhead has NOTHING to help support it. With a shaft attached and a golfer gripping said shaft, the clubhead can resist twisting. The physics has EVERYTHING to do with the shaft and the golfer's grip and virtually NOTHING to do with perimeter weighting. Again, to neglect the shaft is ignorance of the true physics and this has nothing to do with robots. The physics of the shaft attachment applies to golfers and robots. It is pure and practical physics.

 

FYI it takes almost zero force to twist a free floating clubhead regardless of the perimeter weighting.

 

lets go back and look at your contrarian theory....that dispersion and workability is worse with a CB than a blade. i don't think anyone would debate that workability suffers with a CB....but that's the point.

 

on dispersion, are you saying that dispersion is worse with a CB strike to strike when the impact point is the exact same (robot testing)? or are you saying that dispersion is worse with a CB in the actual real life playing of golf where the impact point varies across the face?

 

you say that it's been proven.....so proven by who and where? you've obviously seen the data, so please share it with the rest of us.

 

So for the record, before getting into the physics, I just want to say (to anyone reading) that there is no debate in what I say about golf clubhead design because I do not violate any law of physics in anything that I post. If anybody doesn't believe this and chooses to 'debate' what I post, that is not my problem. I will simply continue to discuss the physics with you until you understand it or just agree to disagree with me. I just want to state this up front since I don't see blades vs CBs as anything 'debatable' from the science perspective. It is what it is.

 

So tnord, as to you points and questions, it all starts with that shaft supporting the clubface which to the ball makes it a structure at which it comes accelerating into during impact. This is why I like how your own very challenge of one part of the incomplete physics of golf, as marketed, leads to a bigger picture DISCUSSION (not debate) of the more complete physics.

 

So anyway back to the clubface physics. So with the shaft attached, the face is a relatively rigid body with respect to the ball, in effect, accelerating into it at impact. Because it is a supported rigid body, the ball will apply a force right at the point of impact and as impact progresses, that force will continue to push into the face as it compresses against it. And so again what resists this force is the shaft which is supported AND powered by the golfer's hands, which it is proven that they do a pretty good job of keeping the clubface square as that force tries to twist the face open. But instead of twisting open, the face stays stable and so ultimately the physics at the point of impact and literal contact between ball and clubface come into play.

 

And so now, when all other things are equal, the literal clubface dimensions at impact come into play and that is where the physics differences between blade and CB matter. And mathematically, their literal thickness difference matters, as does their surrounding local structure. As per the following materials science properties of carbon steel and ALL materials, mathematically, the amount a clubface flexes inward will be roughly proportional to how thick it is...

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's_modulus

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulk_modulus

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shear_modulus

 

These factors or moduli literally dictate that the face flex is tied to the wall thickness. And because of this, the local compression AND spin on the ball changes, as will the literal face angle change. And furthermore, per the math in those links I posted, the physics SCALES LINEARLY with the force. Meaning, the physics starts applying as soon as any amount of force is applied. So clearly, based on irrefutable materials science properties and physics, the face flex between a blade and a CB is as different as the wall thicknesses are different and this will have a direct difference as to how the ball spins AND launches.

 

Furthermore by design, the CB clubhead has THICK perimeter walls and again per those moduli I posted, this makes the perimeter much LESS flexible as a blade's, AND moreover it makes the rest of the face wall VARY in flex as you move away from it. The more you move away from the thick walled perimeter, the LESS the face flexes, so with a CB face you will get, relatively speaking and all other things equal, MORE VARYING face flex based on changing the hit location. Again, this will change the shot to shot spin and launch angle MORE as compared to a blade.

 

Ultimately for both the thinner face wall and perimeter weighting, the CB clubhead design is LESS workable AND LESS precise on a shot to shot basis. And again, all of this is tied to the local head design physical shape and as supported by the shaft (which in turn is supported by the golfer's hands). So there you have almost all the science background to what I'm saying. And by the way, this applies to both the robot and random golfer. They both have some randomness and lack of precision and because the math scales, the science still applies to either scenario when you compare workability and precision between a blade and a CB. I would argue that it is more apparent to the more random hitting golfer, relatively speaking, but again all things equal the science supports that a blade is more workable and precise than a CB. It is what it is.

 

And as to data, all I'm saying is that the manufacturers likely already have all the data that proves this, whether the test subject is a robot or golfer. The precision and accuracy at which you can measure impact location, clubhead path and angle, spin, spin direction, launch velocity and acceleration (amongst many other parameters) are both good enough to discern the differences in how clubhead design impacts performance. And moreover what I'm saying is because it is detrimental to CB sales is why this data will never see the light of day. But let's not kid ourselves anymore that the manufacturers cannot prove the differences in what a head design does to both spin and launch angle. But instead all they market is some HALF-TRUTH "theory" on perimeter weighting...again based on the FALSE PREMISE of the clubhead can be treated as a free floating body.

 

As to my personal data it is clear to me gaming mp67s, mp60s, and mpFliHis with all the exact same shafts and specs for nine years straight and hitting thousands of balls and playing hundreds of comparison rounds that a blade is more workable and more precise and it just gets worse the more CG and "game improvement" you go. And I don't consider myself any different than any other golfer. The laws of physics applies to me as well as anyone else.

[3woodvt]

Did anyone else google Blades vs Cavity back irons?

 

Well here was my first blog on it. Makes sense.

 

http://www.bladegolfirons.com/guide/blade-irons-vs-cavity-back-irons

[BCULAW]

Its the game show, "is it a blade!",

 

One of these are not blades....make it fun, dont zoom in and try to look for any reflective detail. For an additional prize (honor), see if u can name the clubs too...font should maje company obvious.

 

what am i missing? The bottom one looks like you can see the cavity back edge or is that just an illusion from the picture?

Illusion i guess.

 

The better question is where you got those mint 32s?

[PeanutsDaddy]

Blade pontification at its finest. There is only one pulpit in this 'church'.

 

No room for healthy dialogue on the subject and that's truly a shame.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mallrat]

When I was in my fitting I asked the guy about selling Baby Blades and he had an interesting story.

 

He had a client who is and engineer at Intel. He was looking for new irons and he came in asking for baby blades. During the fitting he asked him why he chose the BB's and he said they were the most forgiving irons made. He couldn't believe it and asked what makes you say that. The guy went to his car and came back with a 10 page something or rather. He used some crazy equations and what not and in going through fittings of GI and CB clubs he started to do his own research. He basically ran numbers based on head weight and specs for 100's of clubs and came across BB's and the equations and all the other cr@p spit out that the BB's were the most forgiving.

 

He was an 18 cap at the time.

[Darth Leverage]

Nike VR pro II on their way. Following up on my VR I's. Not really a nike fan but got bored afew years back at the range and tried them. Surprised how buttery. Much nicer than the titlest 710 (I think) I had at the time.

 

Anyway I'm as much of a forged guy as I am blades, so the collection now will be taylormade 300 series forged (really nice can't let them go) the above two sets, Wilson fg-17, hogan redlines (oddly graphite shafts, impulse)

 

 

[Kingcat990]

 

He had a client who is an engineer

 

Oh boy. Here we go :D

 

[duffer987]

Blade pontification at its finest. There is only one pulpit in this 'church'.

 

No room for healthy dialogue on the subject and that's truly a shame.

 

When you're trying to discuss something with someone wearing a tinfoil hat and yammering on about conspiracies telling us the earth is round, when no the earth is completely flat, because he's sailed out to the end and looked over the edge, what chance do you have ;)

 

Fortunately BH, 3 Jack, OP, Mahonie, NYJ, KC, and many others redeem this thread, even if it takes multiple clicks to get through the pages of spam. I've bought (and sold) many sets from reading about various bits and bobs in this thread, it's another work week diversion like the site itself... heck now I'm thinking about some Ft. Worths. I already had a set in my eBay watchlist, maybe I should just go ahead and click BIN :)

[DeNinny]

Blade pontification at its finest. There is only one pulpit in this 'church'.

 

No room for healthy dialogue on the subject and that's truly a shame.

 

The reason there is no room is simply because there are only one set of laws of physics that define golf physics. There is no shame nor emotion in science. You call it pontification and a shame, I call it the simple facts.

 

The real shame is the HALF-TRUTH marketed "physics" of "forgiveness" and what it does to the psyche of golfers with an irrational fear of blades. A crying shame at that.

[DeNinny]

Blade pontification at its finest. There is only one pulpit in this 'church'.

 

No room for healthy dialogue on the subject and that's truly a shame.

 

When you're trying to discuss something with someone wearing a tinfoil hat and yammering on about conspiracies telling us the earth is round, when no the earth is completely flat, because he's sailed out to the end and looked over the edge, what chance do you have ;)

 

Fortunately BH, 3 Jack, OP, Mahonie, NYJ, KC, and many others redeem this thread, even if it takes multiple clicks to get through the pages of spam. I've bought (and sold) many sets from reading about various bits and bobs in this thread, it's another work week diversion like the site itself... heck now I'm thinking about some Ft. Worths. I already had a set in my eBay watchlist, maybe I should just go ahead and click BIN :)

 

And when you can do nothing with the laws of science to refute anything that I've stated, you are left with posts like this to "further" the blades discussion. Feel free to quote me on anything that contradicts the laws of physics. That would be a much healthier discussion than this post.

[MJisGOAT]

When I was in my fitting I asked the guy about selling Baby Blades and he had an interesting story.

 

He had a client who is and engineer at Intel. He was looking for new irons and he came in asking for baby blades. During the fitting he asked him why he chose the BB's and he said they were the most forgiving irons made. He couldn't believe it and asked what makes you say that. The guy went to his car and came back with a 10 page something or rather. He used some crazy equations and what not and in going through fittings of GI and CB clubs he started to do his own research. He basically ran numbers based on head weight and specs for 100's of clubs and came across BB's and the equations and all the other cr@p spit out that the BB's were the most forgiving.

 

He was an 18 cap at the time.

 

Interesting tale!

[mahonie]

Blade pontification at its finest. There is only one pulpit in this 'church'.

 

No room for healthy dialogue on the subject and that's truly a shame.

 

When you're trying to discuss something with someone wearing a tinfoil hat and yammering on about conspiracies telling us the earth is round, when no the earth is completely flat, because he's sailed out to the end and looked over the edge, what chance do you have ;)

 

Fortunately BH, 3 Jack, OP, Mahonie, NYJ, KC, and many others redeem this thread, even if it takes multiple clicks to get through the pages of spam. I've bought (and sold) many sets from reading about various bits and bobs in this thread, it's another work week diversion like the site itself... heck now I'm thinking about some Ft. Worths. I already had a set in my eBay watchlist, maybe I should just go ahead and click BIN :)

 

For anyone considering the Ft Worths, I've said it before and I'll say it again, (and I'm not that keen on Shiels) you have to check out this review:

 

 

Best club review I've seen :-)

[Nard_S]

Blade pontification at its finest. There is only one pulpit in this 'church'.

 

No room for healthy dialogue on the subject and that's truly a shame.

 

When in Sturgis, you talk bikes. Sturgis is not a place to ask why you ride, if you had to ask that, you probably drove in on something else..............

[duffer987]

Fortunately BH, 3 Jack, OP, Mahonie, NYJ, KC, and many others redeem this thread, even if it takes multiple clicks to get through the pages of spam. I've bought (and sold) many sets from reading about various bits and bobs in this thread, it's another work week diversion like the site itself... heck now I'm thinking about some Ft. Worths. I already had a set in my eBay watchlist, maybe I should just go ahead and click BIN :)

 

For anyone considering the Ft Worths, I've said it before and I'll say it again, (and I'm not that keen on Shiels) you have to check out this review:

 

 

Best club review I've seen :-)

 

Ha! I was watching those last night during halftime of SOU/TOT. Not making that up either, when the Ft. Worth bug attacked. I felt bad for his mate trying to put a swing on them with those KBS 120 X shafts, in one of the other vids. There's an eBay seller shifting loads of 'mint'/display sets at the moment which got me interested.

 

I just bought some FG Tour F5s and X-Forged '13s though, that I haven't even gotten on course, to go along with the other six seven sets I currently own though darnit.

[Nard_S]

well that's fair....it just irk'd me for somebody to come here touting a contrarian position as absolute fact without backing it up. very trump-y.

 

so.....can anybody tell me who does the forgings for the new hogans? i've been interested to try them for a while.

 

I read it on the interweb, so it must be true.......,.......Hogan FW are cold forged (6 step) in China (at and in) the same way that Scratch clubs were done.

[PeanutsDaddy]

If this year teaches me anything it's that we shouldn't let facts get in the way of a good story ; )

[mallrat]

well that's fair....it just irk'd me for somebody to come here touting a contrarian position as absolute fact without backing it up. very trump-y.

 

so.....can anybody tell me who does the forgings for the new hogans? i've been interested to try them for a while.

 

I read it on the interweb, so it must be true.......,.......Hogan FW are cold forged (6 step) in China (at and in) the same way that Scratch clubs were done.

 

I thought he said they were forged in the US but I may be mistaken.

[Nard_S]

well that's fair....it just irk'd me for somebody to come here touting a contrarian position as absolute fact without backing it up. very trump-y.

 

so.....can anybody tell me who does the forgings for the new hogans? i've been interested to try them for a while.

 

I read it on the interweb, so it must be true.......,.......Hogan FW are cold forged (6 step) in China (at and in) the same way that Scratch clubs were done.

 

I thought he said they were forged in the US but I may be mistaken.

 

Kind of but not really. Heads are cold forged in China, then they are shipped to Texas where they are finished ground, lofted and stamped. Say they have "5-iron" forging, club can be finished to 26 or 27 or 28 degree specification. This is how they can offer every degree of loft and not go bankrupt on molds alone.

[Kingcat990]

Pretty ingenious concept really. I don't think it will catch on abroad. Much like the Honma #10 iron instead of "PW".

[Bigmean]

Blade pontification at its finest. There is only one pulpit in this 'church'.

 

No room for healthy dialogue on the subject and that's truly a shame.

 

This is not the case at all peanuts. Please understand, that is NOT the attitude here at all. I personally and not as much as deninny and others would love to dialogue all day long about it. The truth of the matter is that the powers that be, and because things always escalated so I am not blaming them, locked thread after thread after 500 threads or so, to the point that you couldn't even talk about blades on this site without it being locked. Because of that, I started this thread, and titled it as such and self policed it as such to date so that we simply could have a thread to talk blades without a healthy dialogue question like what was posed, turn into yet another locked thread. I may be exaggerating 500, but I am not exaggerating the fact there was a time here when a blades thread didn't last more than 2 weeks and 2 days was more the norm.

 

So please, do not buy into the "bladeinati" and "no free speech" perception of this thread/group, it is NOT at all what we are about, but it is what we have been forced to follow in order to have a healthy and functioning thread without the risk of something marginal being determined by the powers that be as reason enough to shut it down, and trust me, there was a time and still may be where very vanilla debates on the subject was locked in a heartbeat.

[PeanutsDaddy]

I've been around long enough to understand the culture of the blade vs. cb universe Bigmean.

 

I think you travel down a scary path when the 'think tank' allows the views of one to be expressed over, and over, and over, but immediately jumps on an individual who challenges those views.

 

I'd hate to believe this thread is simply a haven for those who wish to attack the 'Carney game' (as it's been presented). These views would be ripped apart in the general forums (and have been) so why are they being given a constant voice in this thread?

 

The end result is less engagement among the membership.

[PeanutsDaddy]

Traveled to JR Golf today. A local fitter who carries Miura, Wishon, and a host of other products. Held a set of Tournament blades for the first time. What a stunning iron. The pictures don't tell the full story of this club head. At address the profile of the head reminds me of my FG59's. I'm heading back with a selection of clubs to engage in a partial fitting and alter a few specs. I'm slated to hit a few Miura's upon my return. I simply want to see, feel and hear what the discussion is all about.

[Sir edward of putternut]

A while ago i posted how i was having trouble hitting the hogan pc irons. For christmas my wife got me $400 in range keys and i didnt want to use the mp5s on 36 degree hard ground, so i pulled them out, begrudingly...sooo glad i did. The set is 2-pw and i was just puring it, even the 2 iron was working once i got rid of the late slice...what amazing irons! Crispier than mizuno and other recent forgings, but a nice full sound on impact and man do they cut through the turf.

[NRJyzr]

Hogans were generally thought of as crisper than Mizunos. Or Wilson Staffs/MacGregors, which were likely the pre-Mizuno softness winners. Such as that's a category. lol

 

Palmer Standards were in that crowd as well.

 

Random thought of the moment :)

[Bigmean]

I've been around long enough to understand the culture of the blade vs. cb universe Bigmean.

 

I think you travel down a scary path when the 'think tank' allows the views of one to be expressed over, and over, and over, but immediately jumps on an individual who challenges those views.

 

I'd hate to believe this thread is simply a haven for those who wish to attack the 'Carney game' (as it's been presented). These views would be ripped apart in the general forums (and have been) so why are they being given a constant voice in this thread?

 

The end result is less engagement among the membership.

 

I don't understand why you are trolling this? The "scary path" is what has been dictated to us. The "jumping on" is because of the enforcements here and precedent that has been set. I understand how it looks, and You may have been around long enough for culture of the b v CB universe, but maybe you haven't been a part of 15 threads locked because of how you intelligently shared your unpopular thoughts, or maybe your account hasn't been suspended for getting too heated from just trying defend your point of view as you have experienced as your reality.

 

This ENTIRE site, 99% of all threads is a new product promoting, forgiveness promomotimg, technology promoting community. There is ONE thread that we have worked hard to not have locked despite early efforts by others where a 14 handicap can say they really feel like they play better with blades and not be called a poser, someone fooling themself, someone that somehow is an idiot because they should be playing more "forgiving" clubs regardless of the fact it won't change their card....... ONE thread, where the trade offs between CB and blade are understood and some choose the unpopular trade offs and many choose both and understand both. 'These views would be ripped apart in the general forum".......... yes, I couldn't agree more

 

I apologize if our one thread of open mindedness to the fact clubs have tradoffs and there is no right decision in your choice of trade offs, and that bad swings give bad shots, not clubs give good or bad shots, in the sea of forgiveness threads and advice is seen as "less engagement among the membership" by you. The good news is that you can actually start a topic and engage the membership in whatever dialogue you would like to have, please do, I will happily constructively share my view on it. If there is a post about a 15 cap who loves the look and feel of his steelhead 3 wood it would be nothing but praises to use it, not people telling him he isn't a pro and needs the m2 or whatever 3wood that is bigger and more forgiving and farther and better, but if you substitute irons for 3 woods, oh boy. This isn't a "safe haven" to discuss some kind of fallacy, it is a safe haven for people who believe something that can't even be proven incorrect, or correct for that matter, to not be berated because it is the less marketed and less popular opinion on this unprovable equipment thought.

[Sean2]

If this year teaches me anything it's that we shouldn't let facts get in the way of a good story ; )

 

You got that right PD.

[JDLA]

Golds factory mb. Pure gold. Copper underlay of course.

[Kingcat990]

Golds factory mb. Pure gold. Copper underlay of course.

 

Photos or you're a boner in sweatpants

[Sir Slicealot]

Golds factory mb. Pure gold. Copper underlay of course.

 

Photos or you're a boner in sweatpants

In an old folks home that's a popular guy!?