Clubhouse Grille (*** NO LIV DISCUSSIONS ***) (*** NO POLITICS/RELIGION ***)

[Divot License]

6 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

I do not read or post in I&A period--- Growing up with my old man running a course I have seen all kinds of different swings and methods especially on weekends and holidays being a starter on the 1st tee sometimes. Being around hustlers and the Mini Tours I have seen all kinds of swings and methods. That goes for equipment choices too. I developed my opinion at an early age about the golf swing one of the reasons I never wanted to teach when I was a class A. Equipment was always my thing anyhow.

I have to admit I did some teaching back in the PGA days but majority of customers were beginners so it was fundamentals work. Back then however I was more invested in the idea of correct positions and appearances where as now I'm much more about face and path only and doing what a player needs to do to make them work. 

 

I have a lesson tomorrow with my wife's Pro, I've not had a lesson with him before but know him well as I've helped out the junior section and spend time playing with his son.  I'm excited to see what he says about my game as he isn't as position based as many but more result based. 

[nitram]

3 hours ago, BIG STU said:

I will add this. For the short game it does not necessarly have to be a wedge. I know guys that are just as effective with the 8 and 9 irons and not bumping or running either. One guy I know plays 5 or 6 hybrids and he is deadly any time around the green with his 40* hybrid. He can fly one in high and make it check up or he can bump and run it. This guy was pretty consistant shooting his age ( 78 at the time) from the super senior ( over 70) tees. He never took up the game until he moved here at age 65. Basically he is self taught. Have not seen him since they closed my former home course. But in a nutshell you have to find and practice what works for you there is no one etched in stone way to properly play this game. IMHO the short game is a stroke saver and will take pressure off the longer approach game. 

 

I agree 1000%. That's why I end up in arguments with folks about "I can become scratch by working on the driving range". No you can't!!! You can become a good ball striker but that's only 1/3 of the equation. You have to be able to get it up and down (short game and putting) which is roughly another 1/3 and finally you have to "figure out how to get the ball in the hole". This is the final 1/3 and IMHO is worth more than that, but for brevity's sake I'll stick with it. To me, this is why most guys who have a decent game can't score any better than they do. They can be scratch or better on a few holes but when something isn't right this particular day, they can't figure out how to get the ball in the hole with what they have right now. This leads to tinkering with their swing or stroke mid-round and that works out well about as often as driving through Atlanta during rush hour traffic.

[Conrad1953]

1 hour ago, nitram said:

 

I agree 1000%. That's why I end up in arguments with folks about "I can become scratch by working on the driving range". No you can't!!! You can become a good ball striker but that's only 1/3 of the equation. You have to be able to get it up and down (short game and putting) which is roughly another 1/3 and finally you have to "figure out how to get the ball in the hole". This is the final 1/3 and IMHO is worth more than that, but for brevity's sake I'll stick with it. To me, this is why most guys who have a decent game can't score any better than they do. They can be scratch or better on a few holes but when something isn't right this particular day, they can't figure out how to get the ball in the hole with what they have right now. This leads to tinkering with their swing or stroke mid-round and that works out well about as often as driving through Atlanta during rush hour traffic.

 

Ya, I can vouch.....Atlanta during rush hour.........very very very bad🙂

 

That last 1/3.....perhaps 15/19 as you alluded..........remember when Jordan was the new

guy having great success back in the 2013-2015 time frame? WRX people were picking

apart his swing like crows picking at road kill but they were overlooking his uncanny

knack for getting the ball in the hole. 

[scomac2002]

Total dumpster fire this morning!  Couldn't do anything right.  Tried turning the brain off and that was comical what ensued following that.  I guess I better get that lesson set up and maybe not play as much and think about getting back to the range.  It's beyond figuring out on my own.

[billh17]

Beautiful day in the Ohio valley ! Temps low 80's and humidity not bad ! I was playing with our regular group and i had what i consider to be a really great day !

I encountered no crazy issues and created none ! THAT , for me, makes it a nice round !

Temps are in the mid 90's every day next week, so i may take the week off.

[Divot License]

15 hours ago, nitram said:

 

I agree 1000%. That's why I end up in arguments with folks about "I can become scratch by working on the driving range". No you can't!!! You can become a good ball striker but that's only 1/3 of the equation. You have to be able to get it up and down (short game and putting) which is roughly another 1/3 and finally you have to "figure out how to get the ball in the hole". This is the final 1/3 and IMHO is worth more than that, but for brevity's sake I'll stick with it. To me, this is why most guys who have a decent game can't score any better than they do. They can be scratch or better on a few holes but when something isn't right this particular day, they can't figure out how to get the ball in the hole with what they have right now. This leads to tinkering with their swing or stroke mid-round and that works out well about as often as driving through Atlanta during rush hour traffic.

This is why I think I managed to put together a half way decent score at the weekend despite my terrible day controlling the golf ball. I grew up on the golf course, not the range so learnt early how to get the ball in the hole rather than play pretty.

 

When asked by members what I think of either their game or others I will often say, "he hits a good ball but needs to learn to play golf". This usually gets a funny look but most don't realize that hitting a ball and putting a score together are different things. You can play golf swing or play golf as my dad told me once and he was told  that by Lee Trevino, so I take it as gospel. 

[Divot License]

15 hours ago, nitram said:

This leads to tinkering with their swing or stroke mid-round and that works out well about as often as driving through Atlanta during rush hour traffic.

Reminds me of one of the guys at our club (he's a good mid single player) but I've counted 6 different variations of a putting grip used during one round before. 🤯 

[Fellaheen51]

Have to be very careful with making on-the-fly adjustments when things go squirrelly.  Often a recipe for really becoming confused and unhinged.  Swing mechanics stuff that I don't really understand.  Better off with a less is more approach.  Take care of basic things like stance, setup and alignment.  Stuff I can forget about once the swing starts.  Then forget everything I've read, heard, absorbed about swing and employ Big Stu's advice of just "hit the damn ball".  Which is another way of saying "swing your swing".  Whatever it may be.   

 

Likely worthless and unsubstantiated opinion for those more accomplished.  That need to understand their swing faults and how to proceed with correcting them.  But in my golf world, absent practice and instruction, about the only thing I can hang my hat on to self correct.  Don't think, let it flow.  

[Fellaheen51]

I never venture into I & A.  When I have, don't understand what's being discussed about 85.637% of the time.  Or the participants are arguing about stupid stuff.  That I don't understand.  What's the point?  With swing discussions and/or tutorials, gotta be able to remember what the points being made.  Without going back to revisit.  Have a file folder filled with "how to" videos.  Bits and pieces of swing verbiage advice.  That I cannot remember what they were about.  

 

All part of parcel of why I'll never be a better golfer than what I am now.  I don't spend any time working on playing better.  I just play golf, for better or worse.  It is what it is.  And I'm mostly OK with that.  

______________________________

 

Played Wednesday.  Shot a 43/46,  breaking 90.  Got sloppy with some shots the last couple holes.   Was mostly happy.  Made a birdie on the par 4 5th when I flushed a 6 iron from ~150 yards to 6' pin high.  When it decides to occur , the perfectly struck golf shot is a unique experience.  Then promptly carded a 7 on the next hole after a quality drive, but pushed a 9 wood right into a trap.  The sand shot was short, into thick grass bordering the green.  Time to see if the chipping "practice" from Monday offered improvement.  Nope.  Bladed it across the green.  Three putts latter.  Not happy.  

 

Made a rare for me par on this hole, the #1 handicap on the course.  Mostly due to length (plays 415'ish).  Tricky drive.  Left side has trees and a slope that kicks the ball further left.  Short of a miracle, OB for sure.  Right has a wetland area, plus a big oak tree (center right) that interferes with the second shot.  Nutted the drive straight down the middle.  Second shot, a 5 wood, was marginally Ok.  Hit it thick, but straight to ~ 75 yards.  Then dropped a SW shot in tight and made the putt.  Boom.  Par is like a birdie on this one.  Rationalizing.  Have had more than my share of exploded scores on this hole by not getting off the tee into position.   Lots of trouble the entire length, if one gets off kilter.  Golf is fun.  

 

 

Never remember to take a pic other than from a tee box.  To busy thinking about hitting a second shot I suppose.  

 

 

[scomac2002]

Wise counsel my friend.  That's why I'm going to undertake a lesson or two with a fellow I have a history with.  He has always provided me with a fix.  Whether I retained it or not is another matter, but at this point I know that I'm not feeling comfortable a lot of the time.  No doubt there are unconscious compensations going on that are making matters even worse when I attempt to swing my swing. 

 

I was wondering this morning if I've got a bit of what @BIG STU was going through earlier when he permanently benched the  modernist clubs and went back to the proven performers.  I thought that I had adapted to the light graphites pretty well, but maybe not so much.  Going back to the older R flex steel shafted clubs and see if the additional weight helps slot the swing better.  As you might recall my first experience with those clubs after I got them last year was nothing short of awful.  Seemed to be a repeat performance of that experience yesterday. 😕

 

Congrats on the well played round.  I'm glad that one of us has something positive to talk about.  Your description of how penal the pictured hole can be is somewhat reminiscent of my current woes; failing to get off the tee without incident from which the problems compound.  Now that I'm feeling healed it's probably a good time to get serious in trying to correct my swing problems.

[billh17]

1 hour ago, Fellaheen51 said:

I never venture into I & A.  When I have, don't understand what's being discussed about 85.637% of the time.  Or the participants are arguing about stupid stuff.  That I don't understand.  What's the point?  With swing discussions and/or tutorials, gotta be able to remember what the points being made.  Without going back to revisit.  Have a file folder filled with "how to" videos.  Bits and pieces of swing verbiage advice.  That I cannot remember what they were about.  

 

All part of parcel of why I'll never be a better golfer than what I am now.  I don't spend any time working on playing better.  I just play golf, for better or worse.  It is what it is.  And I'm mostly OK with that.  

______________________________

 

Played Wednesday.  Shot a 43/46,  breaking 90.  Got sloppy with some shots the last couple holes.   Was mostly happy.  Made a birdie on the par 4 5th when I flushed a 6 iron from ~150 yards to 6' pin high.  When it decides to occur , the perfectly struck golf shot is a unique experience.  Then promptly carded a 7 on the next hole after a quality drive, but pushed a 9 wood right into a trap.  The sand shot was short, into thick grass bordering the green.  Time to see if the chipping "practice" from Monday offered improvement.  Nope.  Bladed it across the green.  Three putts latter.  Not happy.  

 

Made a rare for me par on this hole, the #1 handicap on the course.  Mostly due to length (plays 415'ish).  Tricky drive.  Left side has trees and a slope that kicks the ball further left.  Short of a miracle, OB for sure.  Right has a wetland area, plus a big oak tree (center right) that interferes with the second shot.  Nutted the drive straight down the middle.  Second shot, a 5 wood, was marginally Ok.  Hit it thick, but straight to ~ 75 yards.  Then dropped a SW shot in tight and made the putt.  Boom.  Par is like a birdie on this one.  Rationalizing.  Have had more than my share of exploded scores on this hole by not getting off the tee into position.   Lots of trouble the entire length, if one gets off kilter.  Golf is fun.  

 

 

Never remember to take a pic other than from a tee box.  To busy thinking about hitting a second shot I suppose.  

 

 

And we golfers must never forget that we are in our so called Golden Years !  Been there, done that, 

Fella, and i bought the tee-shirt !  Your course looks like mine, which also punishes me when i

start thinking I know what I'm doing !

[Divot License]

2 hours ago, Fellaheen51 said:

Likely worthless and unsubstantiated opinion for those more accomplished.  That need to understand their swing faults and how to proceed with correcting them.  But in my golf world, absent practice and instruction, about the only thing I can hang my hat on to self correct.  Don't think, let it flow.  

I don't deem anything worthless and unsubstantiated. 

 

As the saying goes there are different strokes for different folks. 

 

One guys at our club has shot a 67 then 68 (5 and 4 under) in his last two rounds, he doesn't have a swing thought, doesn't understand even basic swing mechanics. His understanding of HIS golf swing is it feels like this and as long as I do that I shot good scores.

 

I remember spending about 20 mins explaining gear effect to him with absolutely no success other than he grasped the idea that it had something to do with strike. This is an intelligent guy, MD to a decent size company but his golf theory IQ is super low but his golf playing IQ is super high. 

 

Personally, I'm very much trying to forget a lot of the technical stuff I know and simplify my knowledge to what only relates to me. 

[Divot License]

1 hour ago, Fellaheen51 said:

 

Never remember to take a pic other than from a tee box.  To busy thinking about hitting a second shot I suppose.  

 

 

That hole looks super tight up on the corner near that tree that sticks out the right hand side.  Awesome Par. 

[nitram]

1 hour ago, Fellaheen51 said:

I never venture into I & A.  When I have, don't understand what's being discussed about 85.637% of the time.  Or the participants are arguing about stupid stuff.  That I don't understand.  What's the point?  With swing discussions and/or tutorials, gotta be able to remember what the points being made.  Without going back to revisit.  Have a file folder filled with "how to" videos.  Bits and pieces of swing verbiage advice.  That I cannot remember what they were about.  

 

All part of parcel of why I'll never be a better golfer than what I am now.  I don't spend any time working on playing better.  I just play golf, for better or worse.  It is what it is.  And I'm mostly OK with that.  

______________________________

 

 

This brings to mind the Ken'l Ration dog food commercial from years ago. "My dog's better than your dog..." and debating swings and instruction has (for the most part) become like modern science, in that anyone who questions it is an idiot or worse. There have been some really good instructors and pros, guys I know personally who have teed it up as Tour Pros and elite Ams who have been chastised and brow-beaten by the modern swing crowd until they finally said adios. I have nothing against modern instruction but some of the old ways obviously worked pretty well for better than a hundred years.

 

More folks would be happier if they would reduce expectations and just play. I struggle with this but have to constantly remind myself of Toby Keith. "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was".

 

Congrats on the par :beers:. That's the kind of stuff that keeps us coming back for more.

[Fellaheen51]

@scomac2002  Good luck with the lessons and you are able get things sorted out.  Half the battle with us recreational golfers is minimally to get to some level of confidence that we can hit the ball.  Might not know where it's headed sometimes, we may loose it for a hole or two, the evident able good days and bad days.  But at least have the basic fundamentals to allow us to muddle through somehow.  

 

I speculate that 50% (maybe more) of how one receives instruction from an individual is having a comfort level with their approach.  Through past experience or a vibe one gets of their persona.  I sure there are lots of capable golf instructors, but their message gets lost with how it's presented.  I'm very self-conscious with how my golf game appears to those I don't know.  Gives me the grips.  One of the main reasons why I've not sought out lessons.  Irrational, but real.  

 

The once private, now public course I mentioned awhile back has a local guy as the pro (and head of all golf operations).   The Mrs. has taken three lessons from him and they've helped her immensely with improving basic ball striking.  Talked to him about lessons, getting a good vibe, but haven't gotten around to booking a set of 3 yet.  Now, well the season is running on, don't know if it would be worth it at this stage.  I'd have to practice what I was instructed.  Thought maybe, but reluctance still lingers.  

___________________________

 

Not sure if it does me any favors, but also not sure if it makes any difference.  Continue to switch back and forth between the steel shafted ISI's and the graphite shafted TS-1's.   I've had good (relative) iron play with the steel, the heft feels good, hit some decent shots.  Two weeks ago.  Then for no reason other than it feels like a graphite day, I bag the Maltby's.  Like yesterday.  And I make some decent iron shots.  IDK why.  They're the same length and swing weight, and the same grip.  Overall club weight  quite different.  Again IDK, but likely will continue to play two different set of irons for no other reason than I feel like it.  Even changed the putter utilized yesterday (Ping SS B60) from the regular.  Something different from the familiar.  Seemed to work Ok.  When your'e decidedly average, does provide certain latitudes in what goes in the bag.  Making changes based on whim and fancy isn't a traumatic event.  

[Divot License]

22 minutes ago, nitram said:

This brings to mind the Ken'l Ration dog food commercial from years ago. "My dog's better than your dog..." and debating swings and instruction has (for the most part) become like modern science, in that anyone who questions it is an idiot or worse. There have been some really good instructors and pros, guys I know personally who have teed it up as Tour Pros and elite Ams who have been chastised and brow-beaten by the modern swing crowd until they finally said adios. I have nothing against modern instruction but some of the old ways obviously worked pretty well for better than a hundred years.

 

More folks would be happier if they would reduce expectations and just play. I struggle with this but have to constantly remind myself of Toby Keith. "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was".

 

Congrats on the par :beers:. That's the kind of stuff that keeps us coming back for more.

When I hear the name Toby Keith all I can think is 
 

 

[Fellaheen51]

43 minutes ago, billh17 said:

And we golfers must never forget that we are in our so called Golden Years !  Been there, done that, 

Fella, and i bought the tee-shirt !  Your course looks like mine, which also punishes me when i

start thinking I know what I'm doing !

 

Invariably, when I start getting cocky about my play, the game has a way of providing reminders.  "Your not good enough to start acting all full of yourself.  Here's a 9 for 'ya."  

[Fellaheen51]

21 minutes ago, Divot License said:

When I hear the name Toby Keith all I can think is 
 

 

 

Ha, Ha!!  That's great, never seen that vid before.  Two thumbs up.  Put me down for a 5 the new Grille mantra, no matter how we hit 'em.  

Edited August 6, 2021 by Fellaheen51

[BIG STU]

12 hours ago, Divot License said:

This is why I think I managed to put together a half way decent score at the weekend despite my terrible day controlling the golf ball. I grew up on the golf course, not the range so learnt early how to get the ball in the hole rather than play pretty.

 

When asked by members what I think of either their game or others I will often say, "he hits a good ball but needs to learn to play golf". This usually gets a funny look but most don't realize that hitting a ball and putting a score together are different things. You can play golf swing or play golf as my dad told me once and he was told  that by Lee Trevino, so I take it as gospel. 

The old timers in my area called it "Knowing How to Golf Your Ball" Yep I have seen more than a few "Driving range pros" guys with beautiful swings that can not break 90 on a course especially in a stipulated event.

 

[scomac2002]

Pretty funny thread going on over in the General Golf Forum.  There's a guy asking about the decline in your game due to age.  He's 33...  It started out as a serious inquiry, but it's getting a little comical.  A couple of the Grille regulars have chimed in.  😉

[BIG STU]

4 hours ago, scomac2002 said:

Pretty funny thread going on over in the General Golf Forum.  There's a guy asking about the decline in your game due to age.  He's 33...  It started out as a serious inquiry, but it's getting a little comical.  A couple of the Grille regulars have chimed in.  😉

NO NO NO I aint going down that rabbit hole

[billh17]

3 hours ago, BIG STU said:

NO NO NO I aint going down that rabbit hole

looked for it, couldn't find it. Sounds like it will be a good one

[scomac2002]

2 hours ago, billh17 said:

looked for it, couldn't find it. Sounds like it will be a good one

 

They moved it to the I&A forum.  Didn't bother to leave a forwarding link in the original forum.🙄

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1827946-when-did-you-start-to-see-a-“decline”-in-your-game/

[billh17]

16 minutes ago, scomac2002 said:

 

They moved it to the I&A forum.  Didn't bother to leave a forwarding link in the original forum.🙄

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1827946-when-did-you-start-to-see-a-“decline”-in-your-game/

i found it, thanks

[Fellaheen51]

Following Sco's "decline" link, ventured into I & A.  While perusing through the topics, began briefing through the 50 page Monte S. No Turn - Cast thread.  Asking myself, "What's this all about"?  Didn't understand snapshot jargon (ex. Cast A v. Cast B).  Thought casting was bad.  But most comments read as being very favorable.  

 

Went in search of a video for some understanding.  Found an 8 minute one, dating back to 2013.  So definitely late to the party.  But what MS was demonstrating seemed very simple.  In an economy of motion sort of way.   First professional swing I thought of after viewing was the easy one of Fred Couples.  I saw a lot of bad things that I now believe are occurring within my swing.  

 

Know MS by name only.  Nothing about his instruction philosophy.  So asking those in the know about swing things (@Conrad1953, @nitram, @Divot License, @Soloman1, et. al.  Miss Reasy's input on swing discussions).  Is there merit for further exploration?   Is it an entire swing concept vs. a drill?  I'm big on the "less is more" approach to the golf swing.  AKA Keep it Simple, Stupid.  

 

This is the vid that I stumbled upon.  Seems to be a number of MS snippets on YT.  

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Fellaheen51

[miamistomp]

https://www.pgatour.com/video/2020/06/10/keys-to-success--collin-morikawa-s-lanyard-drill--.html

 

 I use this simple drill regularly

 

All of these teachers who show the wrong way first are doing the viewer a a disservice

The bad crap will stick in your head

[Soloman1]

Part I.

 

Not all people teaching golf know what they're doing. It's no different from any other work. 20% or so in any work are competent and 80% are mediocre.

 

I know Monte and he doesn't really have a method or philosophy. He teaches to the student in front of him. He's smart and thinks deeper than than the average instructor. iteach is also a smart guy.

 

Ironically, neither are PGA members, as Butch Harmon is not a PGA member. The PGA is essentially a union where people have to work as a slave-labor "apprentice" for two to three years under a PGA member. It's like the dark ages of becoming a blacksmith. It was designed when PGA members needed cheap labor and they owned the golf shop at golf courses. They owned the merchandise, the clubs (golf clubs used to sold only at "green grass facilities" and there were no retail equipment stores, except for some cheap department store brands), did club repair, owned a piece of the driving range and cart revenue.

 

In the US in the 1970's, golf pros and lawyers made about the same amount of money. That all changed, but that's a different story. The point is that being a "PGA Member" doesn't qualify you as a teacher. The PGA continued to teach the old, wrong ball-flight laws long after it was proven that they were wrong. So just because they are PGA members, doesn't make them competent teachers.

 

The problem with many golf pros is that they are stuck. They teach what they learned (right or wrong) in their first six months in the business and haven't studied more or enough to understand more or that they may be wrong. They have six months experience, but call it 20 years experience. It's just six months regurgitated for 20 years.

 

Others who are unmotivated to learn or change their minds about wrongheaded instruction find some little move in their own swing and teach it to all of their students for a month or so, even though it may have no relevance to the student.

 

Golf instruction is a pretty good example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect -  basically that confidence is inversely proportional to competence. 🙂

 

Part II later...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Soloman1

[scomac2002]

Thank you for your insight @Soloman1!👍

[nitram]

I have recommended the MS NTC video to several folks who are either lost in their golf journey and/or just beginning and can't find someone they like and/or trust to help them or their spouse. This is really a very concise (5-step) process that allows you to obtain center face contact more often than not with how he is teaching you to swing the club. Everyone I've turned-on to it says it has served them well and the few I've played with afterward have shown real improvement. IMHO it's worth the price for the video and I don't say that very often.

[Conrad1953]

3 hours ago, scomac2002 said:

Thank you for your insight @Soloman1!👍

 

A few weeks back I watched a video of Monte helping a golfer; using Sol's 3 D system.  I

do wish Reasy was around at the moment because I think he would love Sol's 3 D system.

Once all the sensors are in place, a golfer can swing and you can view his swing from any

angle you wish and get precise measurements of every move.  

 

It's not a swing video as we're used to seeing but rather the golfer is replaced by an avatar

that is performing the moves captured from his/her swing. 

 

Lesson using MySwing w/ Monte Scheinblum part 1 - YouTube

 

Lesson using MySwing w/ Monte Scheinblum Part 2 - YouTube

Edited August 8, 2021 by Conrad1953