Scratch versus Top-20 in the World Pro

[CCTxGolf]

Yeah it's gotta be crazy nerve jolting the first couple times with a famous pro! I would prob have trouble getting a ball on a tee! Lol I'm assuming all of you guys are as financially secure as Phil because that would wreck my game too.

 

Regarding your last statement: uhhhh ... No. LOL

 

Then huge advantage Phil. I'd be thinking about getting reemed by my wife, going on food stamps, divorce lawyers, skid row, kids tuition, and Obama care premiums! Lol

[idriveahonda]

I would bet my entire retirement the following:

---------------------------

1) The 2017 US junior amateur champion could wax every single golfwrx member giving 3 shots a side…

2) The 2017 US amateur champion would win giving them 6 shots a side…

3) Someone who is top 20 in the world could beat a scratch wrxer giving them 9 shots aside...

----------------------------

None of these matches would be close.

 

-Chris

 

I'll take the second bet all day long, and I'm playing to a garbage 1. I shoot 76, dude still has to shoot 64...

 

Agree though, there is a wide variety of "scratch" golfers. Short/Long Course, Par/Birdie Machine, etc.

[Jwin323]

Regarding pressure: You are correct, of course—but only the first couple times. As a guy who has now played with top-level Tour players many, many times, I can tell you that the first time or two you do it, nerves are absolutely a contributing factor that will simply not allow you to play your best. For me at least.

 

I played god awful the first time I played a money match against the resident Champions Tour stud at our club. After the second time, all I thought about was how to beat him.

 

Golf is no different than any other endeavor: regardless of skill, the more you do something, the more comfortable you are.

 

This particular amateur buddy has played tons of golf now with Tour pros, and this was probably his fifth or sixth time playing with/against Phil. So nerves, while always there in a big money match against anyone, and more so against a Tour pro—let alone Phil—were only a minor factor in this match. My buddy simply didn't bring anywhere near his best game.

 

Obee, I'm going to say something here I think you might understand. I have a number of friends who are tour pros an have and continue to play with them. I have 2 cousins who have won on tour. My late uncle is one of the top 100 of all time. I have never felt any pressure playing golf with them. Nor do I feel any playing weekly money games. Golf is fun, not stressful.

 

The only time I have ever felt pressure is in TeamPlay matches. If you lose, you're letting down 15 other guys you've gone to battle with. That feeling is worse than any amount of money I've ever lost. Disappointing your friends sucks.

[MMB1500]

Disappointing your friends sucks.

 

That's one of the reasons I don't have any.

[DavePelz4]

Regarding pressure: You are correct, of course—but only the first couple times. As a guy who has now played with top-level Tour players many, many times, I can tell you that the first time or two you do it, nerves are absolutely a contributing factor that will simply not allow you to play your best. For me at least.

 

I played god awful the first time I played a money match against the resident Champions Tour stud at our club. After the second time, all I thought about was how to beat him.

 

Golf is no different than any other endeavor: regardless of skill, the more you do something, the more comfortable you are.

 

This particular amateur buddy has played tons of golf now with Tour pros, and this was probably his fifth or sixth time playing with/against Phil. So nerves, while always there in a big money match against anyone, and more so against a Tour pro—let alone Phil—were only a minor factor in this match. My buddy simply didn't bring anywhere near his best game.

 

Obee, I'm going to say something here I think you might understand. I have a number of friends who are tour pros an have and continue to play with them. I have 2 cousins who have won on tour. My late uncle is one of the top 100 of all time. I have never felt any pressure playing golf with them. Nor do I feel any playing weekly money games. Golf is fun, not stressful.

 

The only time I have ever felt pressure is in TeamPlay matches. If you lose, you're letting down 15 other guys you've gone to battle with. That feeling is worse than any amount of money I've ever lost. Disappointing your friends sucks.

 

The Byrum brothers???

[2bGood]

If you are a mature player with a few bucks, I don't see why the scratch player is going to feel any more pressure than the pro. I am close to being eligible for the seniors tour, and if I was given the chance to play Phil for $5K (A number that is way more than I want to lose, but way less than I can afford to lose), I would be thinking I have won before we even started. Paying $5K in order to play a match against Phil seems like a bargain. The upside, I actually have a chance to win money doing it.

 

Who don't know how much the bet was, and for everyone there is going to be a dollar figure where the match becomes more about winning and losing than having a great experience, but somehow I think the number was low enough that the money was not the biggest factor.

[mizuno player]

I really enjoy reading OB's threads.

 

A friend of mine who played D1 golf on scholarship. Played mini tours. Some Web.com events. He has one of the most text book perfect swings. Anyone that sees it says how good it is. His problem was he tried to find some extra yards off the tee and lost accuracy. Also, confidence with the putter. Never made the tour.

 

He was playing a round with a former 2 time US Open champ about 10-12 years ago. A couple holes into the back he turns and says. " Hey Mr....... I'm 3 up on you. I haven't beat you before." Well, Mr. 2 time gets serious and ends up winning 2 up!!! At the time my friend was a +2 and Mr. 2 time hardly played competitively. Crushing!!!

 

Sorry for the long winded post.

 

Deane Beman? The only other 2 time I can think of that still have heartbeats are Nicklaus and Jay Sigel. Sigel would have still been competitive 10 years ago and Nicklaus isn't likely to be filling out your friendly four ball.

US Open, not US Am. :-)

 

Correct. US Open.

 

Mr. 2 time is also a Mr. Back to Back!!!!

[Jwin323]

Regarding pressure: You are correct, of course—but only the first couple times. As a guy who has now played with top-level Tour players many, many times, I can tell you that the first time or two you do it, nerves are absolutely a contributing factor that will simply not allow you to play your best. For me at least.

 

I played god awful the first time I played a money match against the resident Champions Tour stud at our club. After the second time, all I thought about was how to beat him.

 

Golf is no different than any other endeavor: regardless of skill, the more you do something, the more comfortable you are.

 

This particular amateur buddy has played tons of golf now with Tour pros, and this was probably his fifth or sixth time playing with/against Phil. So nerves, while always there in a big money match against anyone, and more so against a Tour pro—let alone Phil—were only a minor factor in this match. My buddy simply didn't bring anywhere near his best game.

 

Obee, I'm going to say something here I think you might understand. I have a number of friends who are tour pros an have and continue to play with them. I have 2 cousins who have won on tour. My late uncle is one of the top 100 of all time. I have never felt any pressure playing golf with them. Nor do I feel any playing weekly money games. Golf is fun, not stressful.

 

The only time I have ever felt pressure is in TeamPlay matches. If you lose, you're letting down 15 other guys you've gone to battle with. That feeling is worse than any amount of money I've ever lost. Disappointing your friends sucks.

 

The Byrum brothers???

 

Yes

[widow-maker]

The scratch player gets waxed.

Yep.

Double yep!

 

Nope!

 

Another component not being mentioned is the pressure. That scratch player is not used to playing for those marbles. The PGA player relishes it.

You realize that when Phil got in trouble for insider trading it started with a lost bet on the golf course. So, it's not like Phil is undefeated playing against amateurs.

 

If you're getting 3 a side and you play pretty well the first few holes, the pressure can switch in a hurry. Phil likes to gamble. I'm sure he gave just enough strokes to make it an interesting match... or why play for money if you're Phil. It's not like he needs it. He's looking for the juice that the competition with something on the line provides. With this particular player, what evened things up was 3 a side and that probably made it a pretty even endeavor for the two of them.

[RipVan]

I guess the next thing everybody is going to want to see is ripvan and his 280 yard 3 iron beat christerone after giving him six a side at 2000 US Open Pebble Beach.

 

His driving distance was 268 yards that year and as I indicated, he flew it 245 ish but not much more. I never said 280 yard 3 iron-you made that up. I'll assume you can't read or you want to read into what you want to. I never said my swing speed was 140 mph, you made that up.

 

Durant barely reached the 10th fairway at BethPage some years after that. My poorly made point is some of these players are extraordinary despite being fairly short off the tee. The type of course matters as does the scoring pattern of the amateur. 9 shots a side to a decent Am is almost impossible to win. 4-5 a side would be a decent match against a good scratch in my opinion.

[CCTxGolf]

I guess the next thing everybody is going to want to see is ripvan and his 280 yard 3 iron beat christerone after giving him six a side at 2000 US Open Pebble Beach.

 

His driving distance was 268 yards that year and as I indicated, he flew it 245 ish but not much more. I never said 280 yard 3 iron-you made that up. I'll assume you can't read or you want to read into what you want to. I never said my swing speed was 140 mph, you made that up.

 

Durant barely reached the 10th fairway at BethPage some years after that. My poorly made point is some of these players are extraordinary despite being fairly short off the tee. The type of course matters as does the scoring pattern of the amateur. 9 shots a side to a decent Am is almost impossible to win. 4-5 a side would be a decent match against a good scratch in my opinion.

 

I'll assume you can't read either because I'm clearly not the one that called you out on a 280 yard 3 iron and 140 mph swing speed. I simply made a joke about how this thread quickly turned into a pissing contest about how touring pro's are not really that good and that a "wrx scratch" could easily handle one in a big money game at a super tough players club.

[williamsnrb]

 

Yep.

Double yep!

 

Nope!

 

Another component not being mentioned is the pressure. That scratch player is not used to playing for those marbles. The PGA player relishes it.

You realize that when Phil got in trouble for insider trading it started with a lost bet on the golf course. So, it's not like Phil is undefeated playing against amateurs.

 

If you're getting 3 a side and you play pretty well the first few holes, the pressure can switch in a hurry. Phil likes to gamble. I'm sure he gave just enough strokes to make it an interesting match... or why play for money if you're Phil. It's not like he needs it. He's looking for the juice that the competition with something on the line provides. With this particular player, what evened things up was 3 a side and that probably made it a pretty even endeavor for the two of them.

 

No question about it - the reason these guys make these bets is usually because they want to recreate the adrenaline rush. It is a common trait among top athletes, doctors, business people, etc. My point is that three a side against a Top 20 pro is not enough for most scratch players to compete, especially considering the pressure and adrenaline involved. I've played my fair share of big money games and have played with several Tour pros (some of them friends of mine). There's a big difference between playing with them for fun and when there's a game on the line. I play to scratch and I'm not saying I could never win that bet, but the stars would have to align in order for me to keep up with them when they put the pedal down.

[Cool Hand Luke]

Obee, would YOU take this same bet against Phil?

[dmac4g]

Two things I have come to realize today:

 

1. Obee has some really good stories!

 

2. Never, ever, ever bet against a guy who carries a 7-hybrid!

[03SMURF]

How often do these pros have their caddies with them in these type of matches? My guess is probably not often and that has me wondering how much that affects their game. I love reading these threads and was hoping for a classic Obee hole-by-hole recap.

[Obee]

Obee, would YOU take this same bet against Phil?

 

All day, every day.

 

Figure I'd have a 30ish% chance. The negative expected value on the bet is more than made up for by playing with a Top 10 player all-time.

[Frostfield]

Scratch players come in many different iterations...the 45 year old, former college player with tons of experience will likely beat the snot out of the local yokal that still puts up an 81-82 once in every 4-5 rounds. Handicap system has some significant flaws IMO. That said, a top 20 player in the world would destroy a high percentage of scratch golfers ALL the time. An experienced scratch player might eek out 1 or 2 outta 10. Being that its match play is a HUGE help to the AM.

 

 

EDIT: Once greens speeds hit 11 or higher, golf becomes a different animal. EVERYTHING is so magnified. Thats another huge advantage to the touring pros cause that is their normal.

[Forged4ever]

So Obee gave us the results of the match like two days ago and guys are still guessing. I imagine if these guys had the ability to time travel to the future, they'd be too lazy to get the winning lottery numbers and just go back to the present and guess the wrong ones.

Bro, there's a reason that 98%+ don't consistently break 100 playin it down and in, LMAO.

 

Some peeps ya just can't give the answers to the test to??

 

Have a great week?

 

My Best,

Richard

[Peanut191]

Obee, would YOU take this same bet against Phil?

 

All day, every day.

 

Figure I'd have a 30ish% chance. The negative expected value on the bet is more than made up for by playing with a Top 10 player all-time.

 

Whoa there.... You do not want to turn it into one of those threads! :)

[playa]

Pro wins 7-8 times out of 10 imo. Can't make a call on a one off as the scratch could be playing out of his skin or the top 20 is having an off day, but over time the top 20 player wins out for sure. How many scratch players could go out first day of a tour event and be within 6 shots of the top 20 of the leaderboard? Would take a 74 or 75 on a tournament set up championship course, I don't know many scratches who could do that regularly.

[Forged4ever]

Scratch players come in many different iterations...the 45 year old, former college player with tons of experience will likely beat the snot out of the local yokal that still puts up an 81-82 once in every 4-5 rounds. Handicap system has some significant flaws IMO. That said, a top 20 player in the world would destroy a high percentage of scratch golfers ALL the time. An experienced scratch player might eek out 1 or 2 outta 10. Being that its match play is a HUGE help to the AM.

EXACTLY Frosty!!

 

This is what I've spoken to many times when I speak of whether a scratch went "North" or "South" to arrive at scratch-

 

An example of one who travelled North that I have also mentioned myriad times is a Player out of Oakmont who currently has a .3~ cap and is a former 2-Time AA Tar Heel, Walker Cupper and had his Tour Card for 2 seasons before a swing change, Lady and life got in the way. He now runs his father's multi-million dollar business and Plays MAYBE twice a month however he had a 67 last summer at Oakmont and took some money off of one of the Tour Boys the Sunday before the Open. He is by no means a scratch in the truest sense of the word versus the guy who was a mid-cap, dropped to single digit and worked his way down to scratch and while he may or may or may not have broken Par in a money game or Tourney, he has know idea what it's like to compete at and Play at Plus-

 

You are so right about scratches coming "in many different iterations."

 

Very nicely stated!!

 

Very nice word selection with "iterations!!!"

 

I love reading Yours, Solomon's and Socrates' posts because my Grandmother said to always surround myself with intellectually superior individuals and pray for osmosis?

 

I would include KYMs though occasionally he can be a meany, LMAO

 

Excellent post!!

 

My Best,

RP

[the bishop]

I'm gonna need bigger golashes if this thread goes on any longer

[masamitsu]

Our club has a match play team style league, 4-man team 9 hole matches. I'm 5ish index. I played a guy last year that I gave 8 shots to. I didn't stand a chance - shot +1 and got waxed.

[ChillyDipper]

Scratch players come in many different iterations...the 45 year old, former college player with tons of experience will likely beat the snot out of the local yokal that still puts up an 81-82 once in every 4-5 rounds. Handicap system has some significant flaws IMO. That said, a top 20 player in the world would destroy a high percentage of scratch golfers ALL the time. An experienced scratch player might eek out 1 or 2 outta 10. Being that its match play is a HUGE help to the AM.

 

 

EDIT: Once greens speeds hit 11 or higher, golf becomes a different animal. EVERYTHING is so magnified. Thats another huge advantage to the touring pros cause that is their normal.

 

Are you referring to a scratch playing heads up with a pro, or with 6 shots given as was the premise for this thread.

[RipVan]

Having followed Seve around the course many times, I figure I'd be plus 6 if he'd hit my third shot into par 4 holes or 4th into par fives. I just could not understand his scores given the wild shots.

 

The ability to get it done inside 80 yards is what separates a pro from me.

 

Whether it is 3 or 5 shots a side, this is area of the game that a Tour Player makes me go ga-ga. Drool. Lust. Whether the teeball is 300 or 350 is irrelevant. 350 off the tee does nothing for me. A low spinner off hard pan from 50 yards to 3 feet gets me going.

 

I'm still thinking a scratch needs 5 shots a side. 3/side is death.

[the bishop]

Having followed Seve around the course many times, I figure I'd be plus 6 if he'd hit my third shot into par 4 holes or 4th into par fives. I just could not understand his scores given the wild shots.

 

The ability to get it done inside 80 yards is what separates a pro from me.

 

Whether it is 3 or 5 shots a side, this is area of the game that a Tour Player makes me go ga-ga. Drool. Lust. Whether the teeball is 300 or 350 is irrelevant. 350 off the tee does nothing for me. A low spinner off hard pan from 50 yards to 3 feet gets me going.

 

I'm still thinking a scratch needs 5 shots a side. 3/side is death.

I'm thinking on balance this is probably pretty correct. There can always be days when the scratch guy's game is on and the pro is pretty off. But those will be the outliers.

[Peanut191]

RipVan,

 

Don't know if you missed Forged4Ever's post to you earlier, but here it is below. Seems like we might be able to get a good story out of this.

 

"Did you know Sam?

 

That's odd because one, Sam rarely rarely ever Played in Money games and two, in 40-45 rounds with him I never once saw him Play for more than $5-10 Nassaus with Ams that he did not know. He did not throw his money around and I can't count the number of times I saw him turn down Money games.

 

The most that I saw him Play for was $1500 against my former BB Partner, who was also a student of Sam's Bro Pete, and Sam told him if he beat him, Sam would back him for one year on the Fla mini circuit. This was in 1985 and Sam was six years removed from a T42in the 1979 PGA Championship and Chuckie beat Sam on the 18th with an 8' bird putt. He was only the second individual that Sam ever backed in a run at the Tour. Chuckie was a +4.8 at the time, all competitive rounds(money games or Tourneys)

 

Sam never Played in our Vegs/Birdie flips swats-

 

Not once though Pete Played a lot till he got older and couldn't Play the BoBs(Back of the Box)-

 

Actually, I think that you're too hard on yourself because one of your better decisions as a young man was not Playing Sam for money,

Head up, Your 80 at Winged Foot not withstanding-

 

I'm curious, how old was Sam when this all occurred, or what year was this?

 

I wish you a great upcoming season��️"

[Frostfield]

Scratch players come in many different iterations...the 45 year old, former college player with tons of experience will likely beat the snot out of the local yokal that still puts up an 81-82 once in every 4-5 rounds. Handicap system has some significant flaws IMO. That said, a top 20 player in the world would destroy a high percentage of scratch golfers ALL the time. An experienced scratch player might eek out 1 or 2 outta 10. Being that its match play is a HUGE help to the AM.

EXACTLY Frosty!!

 

This is what I've spoken to many times when I speak of whether a scratch went "North" or "South" to arrive at scratch-

 

An example of one who travelled North that I have also mentioned myriad times is a Player out of Oakmont who currently has a .3~ cap and is a former 2-Time AA Tar Heel, Walker Cupper and had his Tour Card for 2 seasons before a swing change, Lady and life got in the way. He now runs his father's multi-million dollar business and Plays MAYBE twice a month however he had a 67 last summer at Oakmont and took some money off of one of the Tour Boys the Sunday before the Open. He is by no means a scratch in the truest sense of the word versus the guy who was a mid-cap, dropped to single digit and worked his way down to scratch and while he may or may or may not have broken Par in a money game or Tourney, he has know idea what it's like to compete at and Play at Plus-

 

You are so right about scratches coming "in many different iterations."

 

Very nicely stated!!

 

Very nice word selection with "iterations!!!"

 

I love reading Yours, Solomon's and Socrates' posts because my Grandmother said to always surround myself with intellectually superior individuals and pray for osmosis

 

I would include KYMs though occasionally he can be a meany, LMAO

 

Excellent post!!

 

My Best,

RP

:rockon:

 

Scratch players come in many different iterations...the 45 year old, former college player with tons of experience will likely beat the snot out of the local yokal that still puts up an 81-82 once in every 4-5 rounds. Handicap system has some significant flaws IMO. That said, a top 20 player in the world would destroy a high percentage of scratch golfers ALL the time. An experienced scratch player might eek out 1 or 2 outta 10. Being that its match play is a HUGE help to the AM.

 

 

EDIT: Once greens speeds hit 11 or higher, golf becomes a different animal. EVERYTHING is so magnified. Thats another huge advantage to the touring pros cause that is their normal.

 

Are you referring to a scratch playing heads up with a pro, or with 6 shots given as was the premise for this thread.

 

Yes getting the 6 strokes. Stroke play would be worse.

[beluga99]

So Obee gave us the results of the match like two days ago and guys are still guessing. I imagine if these guys had the ability to time travel to the future, they'd be too lazy to get the winning lottery numbers and just go back to the present and guess the wrong ones.

 

Just like Biff Tannen and the 1950-2000 Gray's Sports Almanac.

[Jwin323]

Obee, would YOU take this same bet against Phil?

 

All day, every day.

 

Figure I'd have a 30ish% chance. The negative expected value on the bet is more than made up for by playing with a Top 10 player all-time.

 

Obee, no dollar amounts but did Phil give Todd odds or was the bet even?