Rory Calls Muirfield Decision "Obscene...."

[widow-maker]

Men and women should be able to have their own clubs if that's what they wish.

 

The R&A has the right to award their Championship as they see fit. I have no problem with them doing what they did.

 

I hardly think that because Augusta has 2 female members and a black member that they somehow magically become better and more inclusive than they were before. It's a sham, but I don't think they should have been forced into it to begin with.

 

There are plenty of clubs that are family oriented and welcome female members. To have a few clubs that are men only or female only just isn't that big of a deal to me. I don't see it as a major problem in a world that is full of major problems.

[nbg352]

To me, men and women often need a refuge from each other. Private, gender only clubs would normally fit the bill here. But, while I believe women can successfully have private gender only clubs without attracting the ire of the opposite and excluded sex, that is because I believe women form women's only clubs for exactly the reason I stated above. As refuge, a place to be among their own gender. It's not about equality or lack therein. It is about being able to take a break when needed.

Offer gender only clubs to men, however and I believe it does come down to equality, exclusion, power, all the things men are known for when left to their own devices.

As such, I don't think that Men's Only clubs can work on a wide scale. If the barn doors are opened too wide then the jackass gets out with the rest of the horses and it is that jackass that will form an exclusive men's only club for all the wrong reasons. Can the same thing occur in private women's clubs? Absolutely. The difference is, there aren't as many jackasses in the barn.......

[Disco Dave]

This has nothing to do with preventing the formation of exclusionary groups. It has everything to do with trying to give all females the feeling that they are fully invited to play the game of golf.

 

You can form whatever group you want. But don't expect global golf associations - with a goal to make golf appealing to anyone who might be interested in the game they promote - to publicly support you.

[caniac6]

I agree that private clubs have rights to accept who they want as members. Saying that, I would never be a member, nor play a club that discriminated based on sex, race, or religion. I never heard Rory say anything about ANGC, and I'm not sure if they allowed women members when he first started playing there. He might not be happy in the process, but, at least, the vote finally passed. If he feels that strongly, just don't play there.

[bscinstnct]

I think this is one of the first times I haven't agreed with you Richard!

 

Without getting too deep into it, I don't think there is a reason to exclude people based on gender, race, religion, and /or sexual preference. I think that people that are in a traditional position of 'power and privilege' should be open to welcoming people with less.

I agree 100% on Race, Religion and sexual orientation and in fact felt the sting of this in two of these categories when I went for a "shoo in" at the club across the street to pulling my name because my religion became an issue at the 11:55 minute, and also with race when I was 11(1971) at the State Woman's Am at a private club and I had to go to the bathroom and the security officer on the club house porch pointed me in the direction of the rest room in the clubhouse but looked at my Step-Grandfather(A Black Man) and told him that "there was a tree on the course" and he could wait for me. My Grandfather wanted me to go on but I refused and took his hand and we left(he said that he found a tree away from people so I could go, lol) and I wanted to leave the course however he would not as he was there for my Grandmother but when he made her aware of what occurred, she WD'd that evening.

 

She would have to wait one more year to win her 5th Title. I do not equate male/female with the other categories because male/female separation can be done without demeaning the other group, be it a female club or a male club however to exclude some based on race, religion or sexual preference usually brings with it very negative and demeaning side effects.

 

If there were not woman only clubs and organizations my feelings might be different however I can understand others not sharing my views-

 

Thanks much for taking the time to respond Bro and I hope that you're well-

 

Your Mizzy hat is my favorite and most worn hat!!

 

My Best,

Richard

 

It's equally demeaning to discriminate against a woman.Let's say you have 2 potential members.

 

One is an ethnic minority, the other a woman. Both are Fortune 500 CEO with great track records in private sector and personally.You don't think it's just as demeaning to tell the woman,

 

"Sorry, honey, no women".

 

As

 

"Sorry, buddy, no minorities"?

 

***Now, this said, a private club can discriminate in any way they like. **

 

Nonetheless, discrimination against the woman is as demeaning as any other group.

[widow-maker]

I agree that private clubs have rights to accept who they want as members. Saying that, I would never be a member, nor play a club that discriminated based on sex, race, or religion. I never heard Rory say anything about ANGC, and I'm not sure if they allowed women members when he first started playing there. He might not be happy in the process, but, at least, the vote finally passed. If he feels that strongly, just don't play there.

I agree that if Rory is really a man of his convictions, then he should skip the Open when they play at Muirfield and he should probably skip Augusta every year, too. He's talking the talk, but he's not walking the walk. Richard related that his grandmother withdrew from a tournament she was playing in because the club was discriminatory to her husband. That's backing up your convictions with your actions. If you're not willing to do that, then you're just making noise and not really making a stand.

[born4golf77]

I think this is one of the first times I haven't agreed with you Richard!

 

Without getting too deep into it, I don't think there is a reason to exclude people based on gender, race, religion, and /or sexual preference. I think that people that are in a traditional position of 'power and privilege' should be open to welcoming people with less.

I agree 100% on Race, Religion and sexual orientation and in fact felt the sting of this in two of these categories when I went for a "shoo in" at the club across the street to pulling my name because my religion became an issue at the 11:55 minute, and also with race when I was 11(1971) at the State Woman's Am at a private club and I had to go to the bathroom and the security officer on the club house porch pointed me in the direction of the rest room in the clubhouse but looked at my Step-Grandfather(A Black Man) and told him that "there was a tree on the course" and he could wait for me. My Grandfather wanted me to go on but I refused and took his hand and we left(he said that he found a tree away from people so I could go, lol) and I wanted to leave the course however he would not as he was there for my Grandmother but when he made her aware of what occurred, she WD'd that evening.

 

She would have to wait one more year to win her 5th Title. I do not equate male/female with the other categories because male/female separation can be done without demeaning the other group, be it a female club or a male club however to exclude some based on race, religion or sexual preference usually brings with it very negative and demeaning side effects.

 

If there were not woman only clubs and organizations my feelings might be different however I can understand others not sharing my views-

 

Thanks much for taking the time to respond Bro and I hope that you're well-

 

Your Mizzy hat is my favorite and most worn hat!!

 

My Best,

Richard

 

It's equally demeaning to discriminate against a woman.Let's say you have 2 potential members.

 

One is an ethnic minority, the other a woman. Both are Fortune 500 CEO with great track records in private sector and personally.You don't think it's just as demeaning to tell the woman,

 

"Sorry, honey, no women".

 

As

 

"Sorry, buddy, no minorities"?

 

***Now, this said, a private club can discriminate in any way they like. **

 

Nonetheless, discrimination against the woman is as demeaning as any other group.

 

It seems unfair to simply pick the one form of discrimination/segregation/separation you happen to tolerate (based on sex) and place it in a separate category than the the others (race, religion, etc).

 

Therefore if you agree that men and women can have separate clubs then you should agree that Jews, whites and blacks should be able to have their own clubs. If you don't then your argument for male/female segregation loses merit based on your individual subjective viewpoint.

 

The onus of inclusion (whether right or wrong) typically (in a society seeking both equality and equity) falls on the more powerful, prestigious or "higher" class/status. Therefore there are various social mores to consider when approaching what has become a sensitive subject in America.

 

Eventually society as a whole decides collectively what is or is not acceptable. Then the influence of the masses effects the actions of others or pressures legislators into enacting subsequent laws/ordinances.

 

I would imagine that over the course of human history no group has been more oppressed and openly discriminated against than women.

 

Richard, from your perspective, what makes the male only/female only club acceptable but not a whites only or blacks only club?

 

[pappaf2]

Rory is the same guy who said he got into golf to win, not grow the game: http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/mcilroy-got-golf-win-not-grow-game/ , yet says he agrees with Arnies comment that he now "has an opportunity to give back to the game" in a letter he received from Arnie after winning the 2011 US Open: http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/rory-tweets-post-us-open-letter-arnie/

Maybe the guy should just stick to golf.

 

Of course he did. No young kids are getting into playing competitive golf so they can help grow the game.

[Man_O_War]

During his Presser yesterday, Rory gave his opinion on the Members' vote for the admission of Ladies as full members at Muirfield. The Tour let it be known that if Ladies were not given full membership privileges, Muirfield would be dropped from the Open Championship rotation.

 

http://www.golfchann...sdayNL_20170316

 

I dssagree-

 

One, This has absolutely nothing to do with a Female/Lady being "worthy," competent enough or deserving of full membership, as Rory and others try to position this issue by his stating all of the female Leaders in the business world-

 

This is not even on the table as THE two most competent Individuls, and they are Super Stars, not Stars, that I have ever worked with, and one I am fortunate enough to be working with one presently, are females.

 

Simply put, from my perspective and experience, a Woman knows better than a man when to bury her ego for the good of the group, engagement or the greater good.

 

They have teeth, can get edgy when appropriate and know how and more importantly when to use those teeth and edges, better than most men that I've ever met, including and especially Male Super Stars.

 

For me it is about having a place that a bunch of guys want to go and be around other guys-

 

There are Women only Clubs and organizations and this is their right to have these just as I see it as a Guy's right to have a "Male Only" Club if they so choose.

 

There is a caveat here-

 

While I agree with Men Only Clubs, I do not agree with and would not tolerate business being conducted in these clubs.

 

Now I understand that just because one does not bring a brief case, cell phone or discuss business matters in the Men's Card Room or whatever the 19th hole is called or anywhere else on the club grounds for that matter, that just the fact that I am able to invite a potential client to my club while a female competition does not have this option(they actually do at every Top-Tier Club in town) is a potential advantage that a female may not have, however I do not discuss business at the club and I and the other leaders in our club also do not tolerate someone breaking this rule.

 

I just don't agree with framing the issue as "if one is not permitted to apply and enjoy full membership privileges then they are looked at as inferior."

 

For me and most of the guys that I know who agree with me, this never ever comes in to Play-

 

We just think that is a guy wants to go to a place where there are only other guys, or a women wants to go to a club or organization that is female only, that's ok-

 

#2, I have never ever responddd well to threats or "do this or......," LMAO

 

When this ocurs, simply put, I become a dick :)

 

Please do me one favor guys-

 

You're welcome to state your thoughts and opinions on either this issue or on Rory's comments, however PLEASE keep your comments on the issue(s) and do not try to be witty, a silver knight or dick and attack another member personally because I will shut this thread down quicker than a female vote at Muirfiels if we cannot act as decent adult males :)

 

Thanks much for dropping in

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends,

RP

 

 

why stop there?

 

what would be wrong with the PGA having a Caucasian only clause as it used to have? It would be a simple tour for Caucasian's only to hang out? what's wrong with that?

Other minorities could have their own tours?

Or Augusta or That course in Alabama, Shoal Creek I think having a non-whites barred policy?

 

At face value the above would seem very different from a male /female argument, but that's never reality. So no discrimination, better than some discrimination with a wink wink idea.

 

Remember...Muirfield could still keep the all Male policy..just not do that and continue to hold THE OPEN championship there.

[mizuno player]

A private club has the right to make their own rules. People have the right to disagree with them. Organizations have the right to not do business with those clubs whose rules they disagree with it.

 

I live close to one of the more high profile men's only clubs. This club does not allow women on property at all,except. The only time they can is Christmas eve to buy something from the pro shop for their husband. They can not go anywhere else in the clubhouse. The former PGA commissioner is a member. Make your own judgement about this club. When I told my fiance about that club as we drove past it she said F**k them. That's her right to say. I agree with her by the way. If you want to to.join however knock your socks off.

 

 

If they receive any support from the local or federal government such as tax cuts. Well they should have to include all.

 

There are so many choice that to focus on the one club you can not join is something I don't get. Some may not agree with my stance that a private club can do as they please and that's OK and healthy. Being a white male I get I have not had to deal with adversity that others have. So it's easy for me to say Eh I'll go elsewhere.

 

All clubs have an admissions process so they are all restrictive of who they allow. If you include all you should be able to show up and plop down your cash down and join.

 

 

 

[cardoustie]

Super tough debate

 

So many clubs (golf or otherwise) are exclusionary in one way shape or form

[larrybud]

It's 2017. Discrimination of any form has no place in a modern civilised society.

 

Every decision you make is discriminatory, by definition. Choosing where to play your next round is based on factors that you eliminate courses until you reach one. You've literally discriminated against the other courses on whatever criteria you choose.

 

If you're married, you've discriminated against all of the other women that you chose not to marry.

[Man_O_War]

It's 2017. Discrimination of any form has no place in a modern civilised society.

 

Every decision you make is discriminatory, by definition. Choosing where to play your next round is based on factors that you eliminate courses until you reach one. You've literally discriminated against the other courses on whatever criteria you choose.

 

If you're married, you've discriminated against all of the other women that you chose not to marry.

 

LOL...i am waiting for the lawsuits. I will settle with one or two of them

[nikegal]

Nice thread sweetie :) I have never looked at "Male only" clubs as being discriminatory but I understand that others do not share my views and this is fine. Having Played at both Augusta(when it was all male) and Muirfield, I can say that I was treated with the utmost respect and class and in fact both clubs would be in my top-3 best golfing experiences. My two closest female friends, also Pros, agree with me on this. As Richard and others have said, I do not equate a "male only" club in the same category as a "no Catholics" or "no Blacks" but I do support one's right to belong to such a club as long as that club obides by the non-profit tax laws.

 

Should Grace Belgravia, The Women's University University Club, Verity, not to mention The Junior League, Smith along with Wellesley colleges open their doors to men???? The other thing is if a guy feels that men only clubs are wrong, that is fine but please spare women your holier than thou self righteous attitude as though you are better than those men that favor them. If you're not in favor of a male only club, fine, but it's been my experience that men who are in favor of them are very up front and matter of fact about this and they treat women with the utmost class and dignity, unlike the self righteous and PC crowd, along with those that discriminate against religion, race or sexual preferences. Sometimes men want to hang around men and me and my girl friends want to hang around women. Why do we always have to turn it into a PC issue where someone perceives themselves as better than or above another who differs with their views? I can tell by some of the responses that guys really believe this, haha. Most women can take care of themselves and while I definitely want Richard in front of me in potentially dangerous physical altercation or situation, I and my friends along with most women are fully capable of speaking up when we feel that we are being wronged. Does anyone notice that there are virtually no women's groups crying foul over this issue, especially across the pond, lol??? To disagree with this is fine but to post or think for one minute that you are better than someone or treat women better than say Richard, Pete(our Teacher) or any guy who's posted here who does not share your views is just wrong and ironic, in my viewpoint. Just take care of yourself, don't be so judgemental and don't worry about others, lol. Try disagreeing with Class and dignity before you start worrying and lecturing about how to treat a woman :) Madison

[ctmason_98]

 

If they receive any support from the local or federal government such as tax cuts...

 

Does tax-exempt status qualify?

 

All clubs have an admissions process so they are all restrictive of who they allow. If you include all you should be able to show up and plop down your cash down and join.

 

Yes but there is a difference between subjective exclusion and categorical exclusion.

[nikegal]

Super tough debate

 

So many clubs (golf or otherwise) are exclusionary in one way shape or form

HaHa, great point cardoustie :) this sort of flies under the radar. I hope that you're well :) Madison

[bscinstnct]

It's 2017. Discrimination of any form has no place in a modern civilised society.

 

Every decision you make is discriminatory, by definition. Choosing where to play your next round is based on factors that you eliminate courses until you reach one. You've literally discriminated against the other courses on whatever criteria you choose.

 

If you're married, you've discriminated against all of the other women that you chose not to marry.

 

 

Pesto sauce will probably file a lawsuit against me; ) No pesto allowed at *my* table!

[nbg352]

Is it not possible to have gender specific clubs without bringing up race, color and creed at the same time?

Certainly it should be.

But sadly, it cannot be. Discrimination in all of it's ugly forms runs quietly yet turbulently beneath the surface. It waits for society to show it's true underbelly. which inevitably, it always does.

[larrybud]

why stop there?

 

what would be wrong with the PGA having a Caucasian only clause as it used to have? It would be a simple tour for Caucasian's only to hang out? what's wrong with that?

Other minorities could have their own tours?

Or Augusta or That course in Alabama, Shoal Creek I think having a non-whites barred policy?

 

Other minorities do have their own groups and clubs. The question is should a double-standard exist where it's only ok to have exclusionary clubs as long as you're not a white dude.

 

If we're going to talk about gender, why have a PGA and an LPGA tour? Why should the LPGA be allowed to exclude men?

[nikegal]

Is it not possible to have gender specific clubs without bringing up race, color and creed at the same time?

Certainly it should be.

But sadly, it cannot be. Discrimination in all of it's ugly forms runs quietly yet turbulently beneath the surface. It waits for society to show it's true underbelly. which inevitably, it always does.

very nicely said NB. Unfortunately, this is the society that we live in today :) Madison

[heavy_hitter]

It's 2017. Discrimination of any form has no place in a modern civilised society.

 

Every decision you make is discriminatory, by definition. Choosing where to play your next round is based on factors that you eliminate courses until you reach one. You've literally discriminated against the other courses on whatever criteria you choose.

 

If you're married, you've discriminated against all of the other women that you chose not to marry.

 

Bingo. You nailed it.

 

Clubs such as Muirfield, Augusta, etc. discriminate against me because I can't afford to be a member. Boo Hoo me. Will find another place to play.

 

I would never be a member of an all male club. Not my cup of tee. That doesn't mean I am against it. I think there is something mentally wrong with people that are crying sexist or discriminatory.

 

I have a private club at my house. It is in my man cave. No one else is allowed in. Doesn't mean I discriminate. I just want to be by myself.

[mizuno player]

 

If they receive any support from the local or federal government such as tax cuts...

 

Does tax-exempt status qualify?

 

My feeling is they should Not get tax exempt.

 

All clubs have an admissions process so they are all restrictive of who they allow. If you include all you should be able to show up and plop down your cash down and join.

 

Yes but there is a difference between subjective exclusion and categorical exclusion.

 

Agree. But one does not usually know why they've been turned down.

[Forged4ever]

LMAO, where the hell's my Man Card

 

I swear that I had it and then BOOM, I go to IV's and it's gone ?

 

I Love Ya Sweetheart, but when you said that you were going to "post a little response," well, ya sure did, lmao?

 

Oh yea, why don't you tell the guys what you'd say to me if I told ya that I was gonna join a "male only" club, lmao

 

Lovingly,

Me

[Soloman1]

I'd like to weigh in here and say that I've lost 2-1/2 waist sizes since the new year.

 

When I'm a member of the R&A, or a member of The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers, I'll have a reason to think of what I think about what Rory thinks he thinks.

[nbg352]

Is it not possible to have gender specific clubs without bringing up race, color and creed at the same time?

Certainly it should be.

But sadly, it cannot be. Discrimination in all of it's ugly forms runs quietly yet turbulently beneath the surface. It waits for society to show it's true underbelly. which inevitably, it always does.

very nicely said NB. Unfortunately, this is the society that we live in today :) Madison

Now I've gone and put us both into therapy, LOL.........

[bladehunter]

I think this is one of the first times I haven't agreed with you Richard!

 

Without getting too deep into it, I don't think there is a reason to exclude people based on gender, race, religion, and /or sexual preference. I think that people that are in a traditional position of 'power and privilege' should be open to welcoming people with less.

I agree 100% on Race, Religion and sexual orientation and in fact felt the sting of this in two of these categories when I went for a "shoo in" at the club across the street to pulling my name because my religion became an issue at the 11:55 minute, and also with race when I was 11(1971) at the State Woman's Am at a private club and I had to go to the bathroom and the security officer on the club house porch pointed me in the direction of the rest room in the clubhouse but looked at my Step-Grandfather(A Black Man) and told him that "there was a tree on the course" and he could wait for me. My Grandfather wanted me to go on but I refused and took his hand and we left(he said that he found a tree away from people so I could go, lol) and I wanted to leave the course however he would not as he was there for my Grandmother but when he made her aware of what occurred, she WD'd that evening.

 

She would have to wait one more year to win her 5th Title. I do not equate male/female with the other categories because male/female separation can be done without demeaning the other group, be it a female club or a male club however to exclude some based on race, religion or sexual preference usually brings with it very negative and demeaning side effects.

 

If there were not woman only clubs and organizations my feelings might be different however I can understand others not sharing my views-

 

Thanks much for taking the time to respond Bro and I hope that you're well-

 

Your Mizzy hat is my favorite and most worn hat!!

 

My Best,

Richard

 

It's equally demeaning to discriminate against a woman.Let's say you have 2 potential members.

 

One is an ethnic minority, the other a woman. Both are Fortune 500 CEO with great track records in private sector and personally.You don't think it's just as demeaning to tell the woman,

 

"Sorry, honey, no women".

 

As

 

"Sorry, buddy, no minorities"?

 

***Now, this said, a private club can discriminate in any way they like. **

 

Nonetheless, discrimination against the woman is as demeaning as any other group.

 

A large part of me agrees with you. BUT.... To do so 100% all women's clubs , gyms, pageants , baby showers , wth would have to be integrated.

 

I say that paying devils advocate. I do not wish to go to any of the things my wife goes to that are women only. And sometimes I'm forced into some sort of appearance anyway for one reason or another. I always feel like I don't belong. Why ? Because I don't. And I'm good with that. This is the same in my eye. I don't even like going to the ladies clothes section of a dept store. You get the stink eye more often than anywhere else if you pay attention. It's a double standard and that's most guys issue with it.

[jmck]

Super tough debate

 

So many clubs (golf or otherwise) are exclusionary in one way shape or form

Is it not possible to have gender specific clubs without bringing up race, color and creed at the same time?

Certainly it should be.

But sadly, it cannot be. Discrimination in all of it's ugly forms runs quietly yet turbulently beneath the surface. It waits for society to show it's true underbelly. which inevitably, it always does.

 

I think these two posts get to the heart of what makes this debate so tricky: how closely you have to parse the subtle differences between "exclusionary" and "discriminatory." I have zero problem with an all women's place like Smith College. Something like that is exclusionary, but IMO not discriminatory. The way I see it is if you're of a group that has a long history of being discriminated against, I have no problem with your exclusionary institutions. OTOH, if you're of a group that has a long history of doing the discriminating, then I'm going to look a lot harder at you when you say you want to hold on to your exclusionary institutions.

[larrybud]

Super tough debate

 

So many clubs (golf or otherwise) are exclusionary in one way shape or form

Is it not possible to have gender specific clubs without bringing up race, color and creed at the same time?

Certainly it should be.

But sadly, it cannot be. Discrimination in all of it's ugly forms runs quietly yet turbulently beneath the surface. It waits for society to show it's true underbelly. which inevitably, it always does.

 

I think these two posts get to the heart of what makes this debate so tricky: how closely you have to parse the subtle differences between "exclusionary" and "discriminatory." I have zero problem with an all women's place like Smith College. Something like that is exclusionary, but IMO not discriminatory. The way I see it is if you're of a group that has a long history of being discriminated against, I have no problem with your exclusionary institutions. OTOH, if you're of a group that has a long history of doing the discriminating, then I'm going to look a lot harder at you when you say you want to hold on to your exclusionary institutions.

 

And there's the problem. Once you have a double-standard, then you're making up different rules for different people. You can't have it both ways.

[ferrispgm]

I agree with Richard....if they can have women's clubs why not men's only clubs?

 

If they membership wants to avoid the scrutiny they should allow women but new member's must be subject to sponsorship of 4 members or subject to board approval to join....so while they technically allow women, if the board is made up of all men who want the club to remain a men's club then guess what....it's what Whisper Rock does in AZ and nobody complains about no women being members there lol.

 

Why can't there be men's, women's and mixed clubs? Obviously most will be mixed but nothing wrong with one or the other. People want a place where they can kick back. Men wouldn't want to listen to the stuff women talk about and most women don't want to hear the things guys talk about behind closed doors either. The sensitivity to this stuff has gotten way out of hand if you ask me.

[bscinstnct]

I think this is one of the first times I haven't agreed with you Richard!

 

Without getting too deep into it, I don't think there is a reason to exclude people based on gender, race, religion, and /or sexual preference. I think that people that are in a traditional position of 'power and privilege' should be open to welcoming people with less.

I agree 100% on Race, Religion and sexual orientation and in fact felt the sting of this in two of these categories when I went for a "shoo in" at the club across the street to pulling my name because my religion became an issue at the 11:55 minute, and also with race when I was 11(1971) at the State Woman's Am at a private club and I had to go to the bathroom and the security officer on the club house porch pointed me in the direction of the rest room in the clubhouse but looked at my Step-Grandfather(A Black Man) and told him that "there was a tree on the course" and he could wait for me. My Grandfather wanted me to go on but I refused and took his hand and we left(he said that he found a tree away from people so I could go, lol) and I wanted to leave the course however he would not as he was there for my Grandmother but when he made her aware of what occurred, she WD'd that evening.

 

She would have to wait one more year to win her 5th Title. I do not equate male/female with the other categories because male/female separation can be done without demeaning the other group, be it a female club or a male club however to exclude some based on race, religion or sexual preference usually brings with it very negative and demeaning side effects.

 

If there were not woman only clubs and organizations my feelings might be different however I can understand others not sharing my views-

 

Thanks much for taking the time to respond Bro and I hope that you're well-

 

Your Mizzy hat is my favorite and most worn hat!!

 

My Best,

Richard

 

It's equally demeaning to discriminate against a woman.Let's say you have 2 potential members.

 

One is an ethnic minority, the other a woman. Both are Fortune 500 CEO with great track records in private sector and personally.You don't think it's just as demeaning to tell the woman,

 

"Sorry, honey, no women".

 

As

 

"Sorry, buddy, no minorities"?

 

***Now, this said, a private club can discriminate in any way they like. **

 

Nonetheless, discrimination against the woman is as demeaning as any other group.

 

A large part of me agrees with you. BUT.... To do so 100% all women's clubs , gyms, pageants , baby showers , wth would have to be integrated.

 

I say that paying devils advocate. I do not wish to go to any of the things my wife goes to that are women only. And sometimes I'm forced into some sort of appearance anyway for one reason or another. I always feel like I don't belong. Why ? Because I don't. And I'm good with that. This is the same in my eye. I don't even like going to the ladies clothes section of a dept store. You get the stink eye more often than anywhere else if you pay attention. It's a double standard and that's most guys issue with it.

 

I actually agree that private clubs can admit whomever they choose, I said that. And I am not saying that there can't be all men's or women's clubs.

 

But,

 

When a club is primarily composed/the criteria for membership is high profile business and political leaders, particularly if it includes CEOs of *publicly traded* companies, they should not discriminate based on sex or race.