PXG sues Taylor Made

[Hot Rod 71]

The search function here sucks Word not allowed.

 

For best results click on the gear to the right of the search box. Enter your search words and then choose "search in topics". This usually yields better results.

 

I usually go to google and enter something like "PXG sues TaylorMade GolfWRX". Much easier than the search function here.

[bogeypro]

Yes. Let's divide by zero.

 

The limit is undefined...

[OffTheDole]

Interesting twist I saw coming a mile away: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/taylormade-now-going-after-pxg-in-patent-infringement-dispute

 

I'd bet $1 that TaylorMade wouldn't have sued PXG if PXG hadn't taken it to the courts first. And as TaylorMade's initial response to PXG's suit over the P790s showed, its patent portfolio is *very* strong and has a lot of technology and techniques that PXG is using now, only TM was granted those patents years before PXG even existed.

[Holy Moses]

Interesting twist I saw coming a mile away: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/taylormade-now-going-after-pxg-in-patent-infringement-dispute

 

I'd bet $1 that TaylorMade wouldn't have sued PXG if PXG hadn't taken it to the courts first. And as TaylorMade's initial response to PXG's suit over the P790s showed, its patent portfolio is *very* strong and has a lot of technology and techniques that PXG is using now, only TM was granted those patents years before PXG even existed.

 

“PXG subsequently has brought in new lawyers for its case and its original lawyers withdrew in October. The new PXG lawyers include Brian Lacorte, an intellectual property lawyer with the Ballard Spahr firm based in Phoenix.”

 

PXG’s lawyers withdrew? Hmmmm...

 

[jdcadkin]

I wouldn't read much into PXG changing counsel at this early stage of the case. They just dropped their local counsel which looked duplicative given they are bringing in a bigger firm -- Ballard Spahr -- who also has people on the ground in Arizona to assist.

 

Presumably -- or hopefully -- PXG was informed that TM counterclaiming for infringement stood at a 99.99% likelihood. This is pretty standard tactic for these types of disputes and -- regardless of the strength of TM's patent portfolio or merits of their infringement read -- will put real and immediate financial pressure on the much smaller PXG.

[new2g0lf]

I wouldn't read much into PXG changing counsel at this early stage of the case. They just dropped their local counsel which looked duplicative given they are bringing in a bigger firm -- Ballard Spahr -- who also has people on the ground in Arizona to assist.

 

Presumably -- or hopefully -- PXG was informed that TM counterclaiming for infringement stood at a 99.99% likelihood. This is pretty standard tactic for these types of disputes and -- regardless of the strength of TM's patent portfolio or merits of their infringement read -- will put real and immediate financial pressure on the much smaller PXG.

 

Agreed, nothing really new or earth shattering, the fact they hired a bigger firm shows greater commitment to winning.

[OffTheDole]

Agreed, nothing really new or earth shattering, the fact they hired a bigger firm shows greater commitment to winning.

 

With the counterclaim, "winning" might not be what PXG hired the big firm for as much as surviving this fallout from what appears to be a quixotic lawsuit*.

 

The newly-acquired TaylorMade -- for only $425 million to a private equity firm -- showed in its initial response that it's got patents and as I mentioned way earlier in the thread, I think TM is actually the smaller fish from a cash on hand perspective compared to Bob Parsons. Private equity is pot committed to protect its sizable investment, and may take out PXG's few patents in the process.

 

There are some serious worst case scenarios for PXG, like losing its ability to sell clubs until it changes its process/tech. Again, I highly doubt TM would have made a move on PXG had Parsons not taken the P790 personally.

 

*The standard "I am not a lawyer" applies to my opinion above ;)

[new2g0lf]

Agreed, nothing really new or earth shattering, the fact they hired a bigger firm shows greater commitment to winning.

 

With the counterclaim, "winning" might not be what PXG hired the big firm for as much as surviving this fallout from what appears to be a quixotic lawsuit*.

 

The newly-acquired TaylorMade -- for only $425 million to a private equity firm -- showed in its initial response that it's got patents and as I mentioned way earlier in the thread, I think TM is actually the smaller fish from a cash on hand perspective compared to Bob Parsons. Private equity is pot committed to protect its sizable investment, and may take out PXG's few patents in the process.

 

There are some serious worst case scenarios for PXG, like losing its ability to sell clubs until it changes its process/tech. Again, I highly doubt TM would have made a move on PXG had Parsons not taken the P790 personally.

 

*The standard "I am not a lawyer" applies to my opinion above ;)

Yes, but it all depends on how the patents were filed and written. I doubt Parsons initiated the lawsuit without consulting a patent attorney and feeling they had uniquely protected themselves but anything is possible.

[buckeyefl]

I wouldn't read much into PXG changing counsel at this early stage of the case. They just dropped their local counsel which looked duplicative given they are bringing in a bigger firm -- Ballard Spahr -- who also has people on the ground in Arizona to assist.

 

Presumably -- or hopefully -- PXG was informed that TM counterclaiming for infringement stood at a 99.99% likelihood. This is pretty standard tactic for these types of disputes and -- regardless of the strength of TM's patent portfolio or merits of their infringement read -- will put real and immediate financial pressure on the much smaller PXG.

 

Agreed, nothing really new or earth shattering, the fact they hired a bigger firm shows greater commitment to winning.

 

Or it shows an owner who didnt like what he was being told. Could be nothing, could be ego.

[buckeyefl]

Agreed, nothing really new or earth shattering, the fact they hired a bigger firm shows greater commitment to winning.

 

With the counterclaim, "winning" might not be what PXG hired the big firm for as much as surviving this fallout from what appears to be a quixotic lawsuit*.

 

The newly-acquired TaylorMade -- for only $425 million to a private equity firm -- showed in its initial response that it's got patents and as I mentioned way earlier in the thread, I think TM is actually the smaller fish from a cash on hand perspective compared to Bob Parsons. Private equity is pot committed to protect its sizable investment, and may take out PXG's few patents in the process.

 

There are some serious worst case scenarios for PXG, like losing its ability to sell clubs until it changes its process/tech. Again, I highly doubt TM would have made a move on PXG had Parsons not taken the P790 personally.

 

*The standard "I am not a lawyer" applies to my opinion above ;)

Yes, but it all depends on how the patents were filed and written. I doubt Parsons initiated the lawsuit without consulting a patent attorney and feeling they had uniquely protected themselves but anything is possible.

 

If you know people like him it is not wise to assume. :)

[new2g0lf]

Agreed, nothing really new or earth shattering, the fact they hired a bigger firm shows greater commitment to winning.

 

With the counterclaim, "winning" might not be what PXG hired the big firm for as much as surviving this fallout from what appears to be a quixotic lawsuit*.

 

The newly-acquired TaylorMade -- for only $425 million to a private equity firm -- showed in its initial response that it's got patents and as I mentioned way earlier in the thread, I think TM is actually the smaller fish from a cash on hand perspective compared to Bob Parsons. Private equity is pot committed to protect its sizable investment, and may take out PXG's few patents in the process.

 

There are some serious worst case scenarios for PXG, like losing its ability to sell clubs until it changes its process/tech. Again, I highly doubt TM would have made a move on PXG had Parsons not taken the P790 personally.

 

*The standard "I am not a lawyer" applies to my opinion above ;)

Yes, but it all depends on how the patents were filed and written. I doubt Parsons initiated the lawsuit without consulting a patent attorney and feeling they had uniquely protected themselves but anything is possible.

 

If you know people like him it is not wise to assume. :)

 

I don't know Parson's personally but I've met some wealthy guys that have a similar persona. Some common traits among those guys I've met is they don't like wasting money on lawyers and hate losing publicly. If Parsons loses this case it will be a huge blow to his company and ego, so again while I could be wrong I seriously doubt he went into this blind.

[buckeyefl]

Not blind but theres a good chance in anything he does that his vision is slightly impaired.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

At my club, I've seen one guy (young guy who plays with some of the better players) wearing a PXG cap. I ambled over and peeked on the back of his cart and did not spot a single PXG club in his bag. Wonder what was up with that?

I hear Parsons is suing him for being a poser ?

[sandy]

Love that Taylormade has counter sued PXG and if you read the 100+ pages they have quite a bit documentation of former patents and designs compared to PXGs weak assertions. Probably the best burn at Parsons is the data from a few sources that Taylormade planned on 45,000 sets but quickly wound up with over 100,000 orders for sets. No wonder they could not deliver by 11/22.. the downside for Taylormade is the 3 and 4 irons are problematic.

[OffTheDole]

Love that Taylormade has counter sued PXG and if you read the 100+ pages they have quite a bit documentation of former patents and designs compared to PXGs weak assertions. Probably the best burn at Parsons is the data from a few sources that Taylormade planned on 45,000 sets but quickly wound up with over 100,000 orders for sets. No wonder they could not deliver by 11/22.. the downside for Taylormade is the 3 and 4 irons are problematic.

 

The TM 3 and 4 irons are problematic how? Is it because they go too far (because they do)?

 

I was laughing like a lunatic when I was hitting 190 yard 7 irons with like 3000-4000 rpm spin. Buying a set of P790s would mean I'd need to get another two wedges to cover the gaps left by the ridiculous distance they produce.

[SwingMan]

Love that Taylormade has counter sued PXG and if you read the 100+ pages they have quite a bit documentation of former patents and designs compared to PXGs weak assertions. Probably the best burn at Parsons is the data from a few sources that Taylormade planned on 45,000 sets but quickly wound up with over 100,000 orders for sets. No wonder they could not deliver by 11/22.. the downside for Taylormade is the 3 and 4 irons are problematic.

 

The suit is a ploy by TM to get PXG to settle with them - nothing more. You can read all that legal mumbo jumbo but it's simply a strategy to settle.

[arbeck]

The suit is a ploy by TM to get PXG to settle with them - nothing more. You can read all that legal mumbo jumbo but it's simply a strategy to settle.

 

Generally it's a good strategy and one of the big reasons you rarely see patent disputes get to court when both parties actually make product (patent trolls are another issue all together). Both companies probably have enough patents that are overly broad, and probably not enforceable if scrutinized enough; but the cost of litigating all of them would quickly get out of control. Both companies end up signing a cross licensing deal and a little money changes hands.

 

What will be interesting is if one of the larger companies goes under or gets out of equipment totally and sells off their patents. I believe Ping bought the Nike IP, but if a troll had bought them, you could have seen a lot of the OEM's sued.

[new2g0lf]

Love that Taylormade has counter sued PXG and if you read the 100+ pages they have quite a bit documentation of former patents and designs compared to PXGs weak assertions. Probably the best burn at Parsons is the data from a few sources that Taylormade planned on 45,000 sets but quickly wound up with over 100,000 orders for sets. No wonder they could not deliver by 11/22.. the downside for Taylormade is the 3 and 4 irons are problematic.

 

The suit is a ploy by TM to get PXG to settle with them - nothing more. You can read all that legal mumbo jumbo but it's simply a strategy to settle.

 

Exactly, you file a counter claim to increase the risk of your opposition and discourage them from wanting to go to court. Once you're in court, anything can happen, now both sides have skin in the game.

[Man_O_War]

kaboom..oh.oh..lawsuit..

[Jordan Speeth]

If PXG has the same success in court that they have on tour I'd say Taylormade will be just fine...

 

You mean the Women's US Open, the Senior PGA Championship, 7 PGA Tour victories, 4 LPGA victories, and a playoff loss in the Tour Championship kind of "no success" within three years of the company's founding? Can't let you get away with that one bro.

[Belmont148]

If PXG has the same success in court that they have on tour I'd say Taylormade will be just fine...

 

You mean the Women's US Open, the Senior PGA Championship, 7 PGA Tour victories, 4 LPGA victories, and a playoff loss in the Tour Championship kind of "no success" within three years of the company's founding? Can't let you get away with that one bro.

 

They have about the same tour success as Cobra, and every other day a thread about them closing up shop keeps popping up. I wouldn’t read too much into JS comment.

[xjohnx]

If PXG has the same success in court that they have on tour I'd say Taylormade will be just fine...

 

You mean the Women's US Open, the Senior PGA Championship, 7 PGA Tour victories, 4 LPGA victories, and a playoff loss in the Tour Championship kind of "no success" within three years of the company's founding? Can't let you get away with that one bro.

 

They have about the same tour success as Cobra, and every other day a thread about them closing up shop keeps popping up. I wouldn’t read too much into JS comment.

 

I've barely read this thread at all but, judging whether or not a company stays in business based on wins is stupid and meaningless. I think you guys know that. It's a business and a business must remain profitable. That is in no way directly related to tour victories. If that were the case I believe Nike would still be making golf clubs.

[Holy Moses]

If PXG has the same success in court that they have on tour I'd say Taylormade will be just fine...

 

You mean the Women's US Open, the Senior PGA Championship, 7 PGA Tour victories, 4 LPGA victories, and a playoff loss in the Tour Championship kind of "no success" within three years of the company's founding? Can't let you get away with that one bro.

 

They have about the same tour success as Cobra, and every other day a thread about them closing up shop keeps popping up. I wouldn’t read too much into JS comment.

 

I've barely read this thread at all but, judging whether or not a company stays in business based on wins is stupid and meaningless. I think you guys know that. It's a business and a business must remain profitable. That is in no way directly related to tour victories. If that were the case I believe Nike would still be making golf clubs.

 

Nike Golf died because Tiger wasn’t playing and winning.

 

[new2g0lf]

If PXG has the same success in court that they have on tour I'd say Taylormade will be just fine...

 

You mean the Women's US Open, the Senior PGA Championship, 7 PGA Tour victories, 4 LPGA victories, and a playoff loss in the Tour Championship kind of "no success" within three years of the company's founding? Can't let you get away with that one bro.

 

They have about the same tour success as Cobra, and every other day a thread about them closing up shop keeps popping up. I wouldn’t read too much into JS comment.

 

Cobra has been around a lot longer and has the power of Puma behind them. PXG has made good to great inroads on the professional tours, especially for a company that's 3 years old. If you don't like their clubs or owner that's fine but failing to acknowledge their success in such a short period of time is what gets people labeled as haters.

[bogeypro]

If PXG has the same success in court that they have on tour I'd say Taylormade will be just fine...

 

You mean the Women's US Open, the Senior PGA Championship, 7 PGA Tour victories, 4 LPGA victories, and a playoff loss in the Tour Championship kind of "no success" within three years of the company's founding? Can't let you get away with that one bro.

 

They have about the same tour success as Cobra, and every other day a thread about them closing up shop keeps popping up. I wouldn't read too much into JS comment.

 

I've barely read this thread at all but, judging whether or not a company stays in business based on wins is stupid and meaningless. I think you guys know that. It's a business and a business must remain profitable. That is in no way directly related to tour victories. If that were the case I believe Nike would still be making golf clubs.

 

Nike Golf died because Tiger wasn't playing and winning.

 

Nike had a huge stable of big name horses that were winning. Nike died because profits on clubs across the whole industry were slowly going down at the time. They bailed before it started costing them money.

[Kid Bro Sweets]

yep Nike never made a profit in any year making equipment even when Tiger was at his prime. But in the end it was probably still a good move as it let them enter in the softgoods part of the business where they make real margins.

[Holy Moses]

yep Nike never made a profit in any year making equipment even when Tiger was at his prime. But in the end it was probably still a good move as it let them enter in the softgoods part of the business where they make real margins.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.golf.com/tour-news/2017/06/29/what-tiger-effect-nike-lost-money-two-decades-golf-business-accorinding-co-founder-phil-knight

[North Butte]

There was a widely quoted comment from a Nike executive of some kind or another, at the point when they exited the equipment business. They never managed to turn a profit, on the clubs and balls. Not even at Tiger's peak of popularity.

[Holy Moses]

There was a widely quoted comment from a Nike executive of some kind or another, at the point when they exited the equipment business. They never managed to turn a profit, on the clubs and balls. Not even at Tiger's peak of popularity.

 

That was Phil Knight. I linked the story above. By “turn a profit” did he mean turn a typical Nike profit, or just any profit.

[QuickFeet]

yep Nike never made a profit in any year making equipment even when Tiger was at his prime. But in the end it was probably still a good move as it let them enter in the softgoods part of the business where they make real margins.

 

Unless you were on the inside of Nike Leadership, it's hard to know who to believe.

 

When Cindy Davis retired and left Nike Golf in 2014, I found the press released that NIKE issued.

 

In the release Jayme Martin, vice president and general manager, global categories, Nike Inc., says,

"We thank Cindy for her leadership throughout the years as she has led the development and growth of Nike's golf business worldwide. Under Cindy's direction, Nike Golf has steadily delivered profitable growth year after year since 2009."

 

If this statement is correct, they were profitable for at least 5 years. Now that "profitable growth" may have not met NIKE targets and goals which may have been unrealistic when looking at the industry as a whole.