Tiger trackman data Honda Classic

[cardoustie]

Anyone else amazed at all the guys swinging it hard and getting 180mph ball speed ? I sure am

 

I thought that was am exclusive club .. a Bubba, Rory, DJ type of thing

 

Thomas and his opponent List both hit 180mph on 18 .. Thomas is a 116-118 swinger right?

 

Re: the comments on smash over 1.5 .. wasn't that proven to happen on high toe hits due to closure rate of face .. so the swing speed est is off ??

[starsail85]

Anyone else amazed at all the guys swinging it hard and getting 180mph ball speed ? I sure am

 

I thought that was am exclusive club .. a Bubba, Rory, DJ type of thing

 

Thomas and his opponent List both hit 180mph on 18 .. Thomas is a 116-118 swinger right?

 

Re: the comments on smash over 1.5 .. wasn't that proven to happen on high toe hits due to closure rate of face .. so the swing speed est is off ??

 

List is one of the longest hitters on tour , and JT is no slouch

[jus711]

The smash factor says it all. It's over stating the clubhead speed. Do you know how bad you have to hit it to get 1.41 with a modern driver. Literally isn't going to happen with where those balls actually went. Clubhead speed data won't be accurate unless unit is directly behind the player. The launch data at times is laughably wrong.

 

 

Looking at the numbers I'd bet a good sum of money they moved the unit/tee on the weekend which is why you see the inflated clubhead speed while the ball speed stayed the same. Again radar will absolutely give bad club data when not setup behind a player.

 

Sergio averaged 119.76 clubhead speed last year with 175.13 ball speed and a smash factor of 1.46 over 65 rounds, we all know he can hit the ball off the center of the club face. So obviously something else is at work, he hits down and plays a low cut, maybe trackman doesn't accurately gauge players who hit like that, but certainly its not a fluke if those type of numbers come up consistently.

 

Again the club data measured on tour is inaccurate because of how it's measured. It will both overstate and understate clubhead depending on placement. Why you see players also get smash factors over 1.5 which isn't possible. How many different ways do you want me to tell you that the clubhead speed data is virtually worthless with how they measure it.

 

 

It's the same reason they show some players have launched a driver at 1.7* this year. The data is flawed.

 

you have shown much more patience than i would with this. i dont understand why people continue to argue after it has all been proven wrong. ! have always thought the trackman numbers shown (again for all golfers) was off for the tv broadcasts. Thank you for your supporting evidence.

 

Who’s been proven wrong? Nowhere did I argue that these numbers are gospel and I think we all understand that the devices used to measure these things are imprecise. But, this is not just one outlier sample, this was 4 drives on a hole on 4 different days and everyone was measured and he was faster than everyone. If we accept the ball speeds of 181-182 as accurate then clearly he’s swinging upwards of 120mph, that’s incredible and was my main point. But let’s not pretend that 127,128 is out of the realm of possibility, he was getting 181-182 ball speeds on 125-126 clubhead speeds while testing clubs in January, and that was with TatlorMade testing in a controlled setting with their own monitor which I’m sure they know how to set up correctly since they depend on accurate numbers for testing.

[sailfishchris]

It's all propaganda. It's an attempt to make you go out and buy the latest club so you too can achieve 180 mph ball speeds and carry 310 into a headwind -If you don't already!

[jmck]

Who’s been proven wrong? Nowhere did I argue that these numbers are gospel and I think we all understand that the devices used to measure these things are imprecise. But, this is not just one outlier sample, this was 4 drives on a hole on 4 different days and everyone was measured and he was faster than everyone. If we accept the ball speeds of 181-182 as accurate then clearly he’s swinging upwards of 120mph, that’s incredible and was my main point. But let’s not pretend that 127,128 is out of the realm of possibility, he was getting 181-182 ball speeds on 125-126 clubhead speeds while testing clubs in January, and that was with TatlorMade testing in a controlled setting with their own monitor which I’m sure they know how to set up correctly since they depend on accurate numbers for testing.

 

You started a thread clearly rooted in the premise that those numbers are gospel, have displayed a consistent lack of understanding of how imprecise those numbers actually are and why, and your fall back position is quoting TM promotional materials which you keep assuring us are accurate.

 

Jeez man. You've been led to water. Take a drink.

[redfirebird08]

If he is consistently clocking 180+ ball speed, that's all he needs. Main thing is stay healthy. If he stays healthy I think he can win a regular tournament again.

[jus711]

Who’s been proven wrong? Nowhere did I argue that these numbers are gospel and I think we all understand that the devices used to measure these things are imprecise. But, this is not just one outlier sample, this was 4 drives on a hole on 4 different days and everyone was measured and he was faster than everyone. If we accept the ball speeds of 181-182 as accurate then clearly he’s swinging upwards of 120mph, that’s incredible and was my main point. But let’s not pretend that 127,128 is out of the realm of possibility, he was getting 181-182 ball speeds on 125-126 clubhead speeds while testing clubs in January, and that was with TatlorMade testing in a controlled setting with their own monitor which I’m sure they know how to set up correctly since they depend on accurate numbers for testing.

 

You started a thread clearly rooted in the premise that those numbers are gospel, have displayed a consistent lack of understanding of how imprecise those numbers actually are and why, and your fall back position is quoting TM promotional materials which you keep assuring us are accurate.

 

Jeez man. You've been led to water. Take a drink.

 

TM promotional materials? It was an article written by a respected writer for the pgatour.com posted to their website, he witnessed the testing session. If it’s just a lie to pump up TaylorMade products why not say he saw 125 clubhead speed and 190 ball speeds? Or 130 clubhead speed? Your argument makes no sense. Tiger averaged 125 and 182 back in 2007 and that was a sample for a full year, if you want to say that trackman artificially inflates numbers or that the entire system is flawed technology then that’s valid but to somehow argue that every reading he gets is inaccurate but somehow everyone else’s is legit makes no sense. Sergio averaged 120 last year with 175 ball speed over 65 rounds, are they putting faulty monitors out there every time for him too?

[TLUBulldogGolf]

His season long club head speed is 4th on tour and his season long smash factor is 181st on tour. Those number are based on nine--NINE!--drives. One of those drives, this 1.41 smash/128mph club head speed one, is obviously, clearly way off. Rory and DJ's numbers are based on 8 drives each. The people who have played more are around 20-25 measured drives right now. You need to get somewhere out towards 100+ drives before this data is going to be at all meaningful and the noise from bad measurements drops off.

 

You want to use somewhat meaningful data to analyze TW's driving thus far? Look at one of the stats where they count every drive. On those stats he's at 10 rounds, so figure ~140 tee shots, probably ~2/3 of those hit with driver. So now you're right around 100 actual drivers, with various FW woods and long irons in the mix as well. Counting every tee shot he's 213th in accuracy, and 146th in SG from the tee. For distance he's 29th, but that's two measurements per round so n=20 there.

 

So yeah, generally speaking he's got his speed back, but there is still work to do. There have been A LOT of things to get enthused about in how he's looked in the last month, but driving in general isn't one of them, and one specific swing that Trackman said was 128 is really really really not one of them. At 146th is SG from the tee he'll need to get better or to have a hot week with the driver if he's going to win, just the same as whoever is 146th in SG putting either needs to get better or have a hot week to win.

 

I agree that it’s a small sample, but I actually think his driving was way better this week and worth getting excited about, throw out the club head speed, even just the ball speed is elite and if he can do that with something close to 60% accuracy then he’s going to be a major factor. A lot of the fast swingers are way down on the smash factor list even if you go back and look at years with larger samples, Rory is 178th right now for instance, maybe trackman technology is flawed, maybe there’s diminishing returns the faster you swing, I’m sure it’s a combination of a lot of things.

 

It's been explained, the technology works when placed how it is designed. The nature of how it is set on a tee box means you have to take all data with a grain of salt.

 

And there isn't really a diminishing return as long as you strike it well, a 1.41 smash would indicate Tiger is basically whiffing it. I doubt he would be that low with his eyes closed. The top ball speed I saw was 184 which would indicate he's likely in the 120-122 range.

[jus711]

His season long club head speed is 4th on tour and his season long smash factor is 181st on tour. Those number are based on nine--NINE!--drives. One of those drives, this 1.41 smash/128mph club head speed one, is obviously, clearly way off. Rory and DJ's numbers are based on 8 drives each. The people who have played more are around 20-25 measured drives right now. You need to get somewhere out towards 100+ drives before this data is going to be at all meaningful and the noise from bad measurements drops off.

 

You want to use somewhat meaningful data to analyze TW's driving thus far? Look at one of the stats where they count every drive. On those stats he's at 10 rounds, so figure ~140 tee shots, probably ~2/3 of those hit with driver. So now you're right around 100 actual drivers, with various FW woods and long irons in the mix as well. Counting every tee shot he's 213th in accuracy, and 146th in SG from the tee. For distance he's 29th, but that's two measurements per round so n=20 there.

 

So yeah, generally speaking he's got his speed back, but there is still work to do. There have been A LOT of things to get enthused about in how he's looked in the last month, but driving in general isn't one of them, and one specific swing that Trackman said was 128 is really really really not one of them. At 146th is SG from the tee he'll need to get better or to have a hot week with the driver if he's going to win, just the same as whoever is 146th in SG putting either needs to get better or have a hot week to win.

 

I agree that it’s a small sample, but I actually think his driving was way better this week and worth getting excited about, throw out the club head speed, even just the ball speed is elite and if he can do that with something close to 60% accuracy then he’s going to be a major factor. A lot of the fast swingers are way down on the smash factor list even if you go back and look at years with larger samples, Rory is 178th right now for instance, maybe trackman technology is flawed, maybe there’s diminishing returns the faster you swing, I’m sure it’s a combination of a lot of things.

 

It's been explained, the technology works when placed how it is designed. The nature of how it is set on a tee box means you have to take all data with a grain of salt.

 

And there isn't really a diminishing return as long as you strike it well, a 1.41 smash would indicate Tiger is basically whiffing it. I doubt he would be that low with his eyes closed. The top ball speed I saw was 184 which would indicate he's likely in the 120-122 range.

 

I understand the relationship between clubhead speed and ball speed theoretically, but real world they don’t always hold true which is why we all tinker and try different shaft/head/ball combos. Just because you should get a certain number doesn’t mean you will even if you’re someone who hits the center every time. Tiger averaged 125 in 2007 and “only” got 182 ball speed from it, Sergio averaged 120 last year and “only” got 175 ball speed from it, Henrik Stenson averaged 122 club speed in 2015 and only got 177 ball speed from it, this is data from an entire year of samples for each player. Perhaps the pga tour doesn’t know how to accurately set up or calibrate their monitors, I don’t know but I do know it’s the same for everyone and no one else got to 128 last week in fact only one person has beat that all year. Tiger is pounding it.

[farmer]

I was somewhat alarmed by Tiger saying he's got to back in the gym. He's healthy, has plenty of golf strength, his back is what it is. If he gets back into a heavy workout routine, along with golf, no rest days, he'll be hurt again. He's a young man, but he's not 25 anymore.

[redfirebird08]

I understand the relationship between clubhead speed and ball speed theoretically, but real world they don't always hold true which is why we all tinker and try different shaft/head/ball combos. Just because you should get a certain number doesn't mean you will even if you're someone who hits the center every time. Tiger averaged 125 in 2007 and "only" got 182 ball speed from it, Sergio averaged 120 last year and "only" got 175 ball speed from it, Henrik Stenson averaged 122 club speed in 2015 and only got 177 ball speed from it, this is data from an entire year of samples for each player. Perhaps the pga tour doesn't know how to accurately set up or calibrate their monitors, I don't know but I do know it's the same for everyone and no one else got to 128 last week in fact only one person has beat that all year. Tiger is pounding it.

 

At the end of the day, his power isn't going to be the issue for him. Zach Johnson and Matt Kuchar are pretty competitive on Tour with a ball speed in the low 160's. Tiger just needs to stay healthy and work on sharpening other elements of his game. Staying healthy is a huge "IF" for him at this point of his career.

[tbowles411]

I was somewhat alarmed by Tiger saying he's got to back in the gym. He's healthy, has plenty of golf strength, his back is what it is. If he gets back into a heavy workout routine, along with golf, no rest days, he'll be hurt again. He's a young man, but he's not 25 anymore.

In fairness, LaCava said he got tired in the middle of that back nine. So personally, I'm not too concerned with going back to the gym because we have no idea of what he'd do, or be able to do. I'm sure cardio would be his main focus. he's got plenty of power. I'm virtually positive he'd work on endurance.

[Fairways_and_Greens]

1.45 smash factor. Those TM Twistfaces must be giving away distance. Should at least be 186 ballspeed ;)

[PowderedToastMan]

I understand the relationship between clubhead speed and ball speed theoretically, but real world they don't always hold true which is why we all tinker and try different shaft/head/ball combos. Just because you should get a certain number doesn't mean you will even if you're someone who hits the center every time. Tiger averaged 125 in 2007 and "only" got 182 ball speed from it, Sergio averaged 120 last year and "only" got 175 ball speed from it, Henrik Stenson averaged 122 club speed in 2015 and only got 177 ball speed from it, this is data from an entire year of samples for each player. Perhaps the pga tour doesn't know how to accurately set up or calibrate their monitors, I don't know but I do know it's the same for everyone and no one else got to 128 last week in fact only one person has beat that all year. Tiger is pounding it.

 

At the end of the day, his power isn't going to be the issue for him. Zach Johnson and Matt Kuchar are pretty competitive on Tour with a ball speed in the low 160's. Tiger just needs to stay healthy and work on sharpening other elements of his game. Staying healthy is a huge "IF" for him at this point of his career.

Short and crooked isn't a recipe for success.

[farmer]

I was somewhat alarmed by Tiger saying he's got to back in the gym. He's healthy, has plenty of golf strength, his back is what it is. If he gets back into a heavy workout routine, along with golf, no rest days, he'll be hurt again. He's a young man, but he's not 25 anymore.

In fairness, LaCava said he got tired in the middle of that back nine. So personally, I'm not too concerned with going back to the gym because we have no idea of what he'd do, or be able to do. I'm sure cardio would be his main focus. he's got plenty of power. I'm virtually positive he'd work on endurance.

He said he needs to get stronger. That implies that he's going to be lifting, and he may try to get back to his 20's routine. I don't trust his judgement. As an aside, we would welcome you to Texas. And if you could bring Belen, well ...

[RobertBaron]

I was somewhat alarmed by Tiger saying he's got to back in the gym. He's healthy, has plenty of golf strength, his back is what it is. If he gets back into a heavy workout routine, along with golf, no rest days, he'll be hurt again. He's a young man, but he's not 25 anymore.

 

yea pretty sure at this point it's just for the mental edge for him.

 

I'm not a doctor, but if he's doing anything other than swimming or a moderate lifting program, then he'll be in trouble again.

[Marco]

I was somewhat alarmed by Tiger saying he's got to back in the gym. He's healthy, has plenty of golf strength, his back is what it is. If he gets back into a heavy workout routine, along with golf, no rest days, he'll be hurt again. He's a young man, but he's not 25 anymore.

 

You just don't understand how the body works, stronger = more stable and less injury.

 

Stretching would be bad in his case, because more mobility = less stability.

 

His injuries are mainly a result of poor motor patterns/posture which are highlighted by overuse.

[Santiago Golf]

CBS showed a stat that Tiger was 2nd in distance off the tee for the week. That is incredible.

Particularly since he seemed to hit driving iron off most tees!

Thats not how the stat works

[DON SVO]

Iteachgolf, all things considered with the different angles of tee box TrackMan (I’ve wondered about that affecting the numbers as well, thanks for verifying), is ball speed at least accurate?

[iteachgolf]

Iteachgolf, all things considered with the different angles of tee box TrackMan (I’ve wondered about that affecting the numbers as well, thanks for verifying), is ball speed at least accurate?

 

I’d assume so. It’s the easiest thing to measure and get correct.

[jorvidas]

Iteachgolf, all things considered with the different angles of tee box TrackMan (I've wondered about that affecting the numbers as well, thanks for verifying), is ball speed at least accurate?

 

I don't have any insider knowledge how Trackman works but know the basics of how Radar, the Doppler Effect, and Object Tracking. Based only on the doppler effect and using the horizontal launch angle as a measure of misalignment, you'd expect the measurement to be 0.5% low in ball speed. You'd never expect the doppler effect to over report ball speed, only under report (although any measurement and/or calculations done by the hard/software could result in over estimation).

[callawayjay]

Are we really not going to talk about how fast Tiger was swinging it this week or how incredible that is for someone his age on tour with his injury history? It even woke Brandel up, he looked like ghost talking about it. My mind is blown that he can still move it that fast, he's now tied for 4th on tour in clubbed speed and thats ahead of Rory, DJ, and JB and Bubba.

 

His smash factor isn’t wrx worthy

[ebrasmus21]

Are we really not going to talk about how fast Tiger was swinging it this week or how incredible that is for someone his age on tour with his injury history? It even woke Brandel up, he looked like ghost talking about it. My mind is blown that he can still move it that fast, he's now tied for 4th on tour in clubbed speed and thats ahead of Rory, DJ, and JB and Bubba.

 

His smash factor isn't wrx worthy

 

It's a process. More reps.

[suprfli6]

Iteachgolf, all things considered with the different angles of tee box TrackMan (I’ve wondered about that affecting the numbers as well, thanks for verifying), is ball speed at least accurate?

 

I’d assume so. It’s the easiest thing to measure and get correct.

I was curious about this too. They showed 176 ball speed on one of Tiger's tee shots with a 3 wood, I found that more impressive than any of his shots with his driver.

[tbowles411]

I was somewhat alarmed by Tiger saying he's got to back in the gym. He's healthy, has plenty of golf strength, his back is what it is. If he gets back into a heavy workout routine, along with golf, no rest days, he'll be hurt again. He's a young man, but he's not 25 anymore.

In fairness, LaCava said he got tired in the middle of that back nine. So personally, I'm not too concerned with going back to the gym because we have no idea of what he'd do, or be able to do. I'm sure cardio would be his main focus. he's got plenty of power. I'm virtually positive he'd work on endurance.

He said he needs to get stronger. That implies that he's going to be lifting, and he may try to get back to his 20's routine. I don't trust his judgement. As an aside, we would welcome you to Texas. And if you could bring Belen, well ...

My best friend lives in Dallas. I'm there every chance I get. About bringing Belen, my own Latina would have issues with that... ;)

[Christosterone]

Here’s a tiger and Phil from over 10 years ago if y’all are curious...

 

They were paired together Thursday and Friday and at the height of their powers...

 

Tiger was hitting stinger drivers due to wind....it was awesome

 

-Chris

[RobertBaron]

Here's a tiger and Phil from over 10 years ago if y'all are curious...

 

They were paired together Thursday and Friday and at the height of their powers...

 

Tiger was hitting stinger drivers due to wind....it was awesome

 

-Chris

 

Must've been some wind!.. 119 clubhead speed, 249 carry. youch.

 

Surprised Phil only got 5 more yards of carry (assuming same hole and conditions) than that first photo of TW. Seems like his launch conditions would have meant greater carry than just 5 yards.

[tgreenwood11]

Tiger is the all time leader in the stat 'proximity to the ho'.......

[Frostfield]

Agree with those saying the SS is skewed. The smash factor proves it because most of those drives were flushed. SS likely 119-121 ish. Still astounding.

[redfirebird08]

Here's a tiger and Phil from over 10 years ago if y'all are curious...

 

They were paired together Thursday and Friday and at the height of their powers...

 

Tiger was hitting stinger drivers due to wind....it was awesome

 

-Chris

 

Phil's ball speed this year is 173 mph, so he has lost about 10 mph from his prime. But Spieth is winning a bunch of tournaments with ball speed around 169 mph, so Phil can do it too. I would love to see Tiger and Phil both play well at Augusta.