Is Increasing Driving Distance Ruining the Pro Tours? (***CONTENTS UNDER MOD REVIEW***)

[new2g0lf]

 

I don't think it would ever be beneficial unless your distance control is so bad you are racing putts more than 5 or 6 feet by on stimp 10 greens. On the stimp 12+ tour greens that would be even more by the hole. The pros aren't very good, but they aren't that bad. ;)

 

My assumption on this rule change is to speed up play. Stick it close, tap in, pull your ball out of the cup and move on.

I think that is the USGA intent, but some folks believe keeping the pin in is a scoring benefit.

 

Most good golfers evaluate a putt from both sides, so for those that do that, it doesn't save any time as you have to walk past the flag, it's a stupid rule.

 

I'm talking walk up with a simple 2 footer. You know, a tap in. In some cases ready golf. There's been more than one occasion of a playing partner skulling a chip shot across the green. The guy who's 50 feet out can putt up while the other guy takes the walk of shame to the other side of the green.

 

In a foursome, golfers will be asking to have the flag put back in or taken out depending on their preference and distance from the hole. I don't see how this rule speeds up play for anyone but singles.

[heavy_hitter]

The ball is not hurting the USGA's ability to play older courses. What hurts older courses is the infrastructure. Parking, Shuttle Buses, Ranges that are long enough, being able to set up stands and seating, being able to set up corporate tents. Older Courses weren't set up to hold or host events today. Changing the ball is hogwash.

[farmer]

I wonder, in real life, how easy it is to make a golf ball that will perform as normal for an average golfer, yet restrict how far a high ss player can hit that same golf ball? The magic ball would also have to be affordable for the vast, vast majority of players who have to buy their own balls. Forcing a massive industry reset to accommodate a tiny subset of golf courses and to punish a tiny subset of golfers is so foolish that it makes my head hurt.

[rangersgoalie]

I wonder, in real life, how easy it is to make a golf ball that will perform as normal for an average golfer, yet restrict how far a high ss player can hit that same golf ball? The magic ball would also have to be affordable for the vast, vast majority of players who have to buy their own balls. Forcing a massive industry reset to accommodate a tiny subset of golf courses and to punish a tiny subset of golfers is so foolish that it makes my head hurt.

 

So, this has been mentioned previously, a magic ball that basically works less effectively at higher clubhead speeds

 

In effect, punishing higher speed players only, so everyone else feels ok?

[heavy_hitter]

I wonder, in real life, how easy it is to make a golf ball that will perform as normal for an average golfer, yet restrict how far a high ss player can hit that same golf ball? The magic ball would also have to be affordable for the vast, vast majority of players who have to buy their own balls. Forcing a massive industry reset to accommodate a tiny subset of golf courses and to punish a tiny subset of golfers is so foolish that it makes my head hurt.

 

So, this has been mentioned previously, a magic ball that basically works less effectively at higher clubhead speeds

 

In effect, punishing higher speed players only, so everyone else feels ok?

 

This entire debate is over 1% of the players. USGA has no idea what they are doing.

[farmer]

I wonder, in real life, how easy it is to make a golf ball that will perform as normal for an average golfer, yet restrict how far a high ss player can hit that same golf ball? The magic ball would also have to be affordable for the vast, vast majority of players who have to buy their own balls. Forcing a massive industry reset to accommodate a tiny subset of golf courses and to punish a tiny subset of golfers is so foolish that it makes my head hurt.

 

So, this has been mentioned previously, a magic ball that basically works less effectively at higher clubhead speeds

 

In effect, punishing higher speed players only, so everyone else feels ok?

This is what I have understood, from reading the rollback arguments and, yes, the ball has been touted The only evidence I have seen of this ball is the anecdotal conversation between Bob Ford and Mike Davis, which may be more apocryphal than factual.

[Shilgy]

I wonder, in real life, how easy it is to make a golf ball that will perform as normal for an average golfer, yet restrict how far a high ss player can hit that same golf ball? The magic ball would also have to be affordable for the vast, vast majority of players who have to buy their own balls. Forcing a massive industry reset to accommodate a tiny subset of golf courses and to punish a tiny subset of golfers is so foolish that it makes my head hurt.

 

So, this has been mentioned previously, a magic ball that basically works less effectively at higher clubhead speeds

 

In effect, punishing higher speed players only, so everyone else feels ok?

This is what I have understood, from reading the rollback arguments and, yes, the ball has been touted The only evidence I have seen of this ball is the anecdotal conversation between Bob Ford and Mike Davis, which may be more apocryphal than factual.

I think the magic ball is just wishful, hmm maybe wistful would be better, thinking. How to rein in the long guys Champ DJ Rory, Kokrak etc without affecting us at home. Problem is that a ball as discussed would also not affect the likes of Kuchar or Furyk.

 

Oh joy! DJ has a dozen more mph clubhead speed than Kuch but hits it shorter. Yeah, that seems equitable.

[airjammer]

That ball won’t ever get used. The powers that be want Rory to still be longer than pretty much everyone else just 20 yards further back. As with most things it’s a pure money driven move. More courses available to be used as tour stops could equal more events in places that brings in more beer sales.

[smashdn]

Long courses reward long driving. Shorter courses the reward for long driving is somewhat nullified or at least not as great.

 

320 yard hole. So long driver guy hits it 320 but just off the green somewhere. Short knocker hits it 280 and has a 40 yard pitch. Both have about the same probability/ability to get it close enough to get a birdie. (LD guy sticks driver on the green he has a shot at eagle and after hitting a great shot he has his just reward.)

 

470 yard par four. Long driver guy gets it out there 320 and has 150 left, probably a hard PW or smooth 9i for him. Short knocker has 190 left, more in the ball park of a 6 or 5i. That is a big difference.

[heavy_hitter]

That ball won't ever get used. The powers that be want Rory to still be longer than pretty much everyone else just 20 yards further back. As with most things it's a pure money driven move. More courses available to be used as tour stops could equal more events in places that brings in more beer sales.

 

The USGA wants Rory to be 20 yards back. The PGA and no one else really cares.

[bladehunter]

Anyone that thinks face tech and distance is capped needs to hit the new offering from a certain epic club company. I saw 4mph average pickup over my current driver , same shaft yesterday in a sneak peek. New face tech coming. That’s using a

Rediculous super computer to simulate scenarios and build. 4 mph is huge with no other changes.

 

I am still on the fence in ways with the whole debate. But after the pga show when it comes out. It will put the “ distance is capped “ argument to bed. It’s isnt. Not unless they change the test . From CT to what I don’t know.

[radiman]

Anyone that thinks face tech and distance is capped needs to hit the new offering from a certain epic club company. I saw 4mph average pickup over my current driver , same shaft yesterday in a sneak peek. New face tech coming. That's using a

Rediculous super computer to simulate scenarios and build. 4 mph is huge with no other changes.

 

I am still on the fence in ways with the whole debate. But after the pga show when it comes out. It will put the " distance is capped " argument to bed. It's isnt. Not unless they change the test . From CT to what I don't know.

 

Are you talking on centered contact? Do you know what the smash factor numbers were? To get those type of gains, it would have to be over the 1.5 right? Same swing speed?

 

Edit: This is also a scenario where I think they need to better enforce their current limits. If the CT test is being exploited to get around the COR limits, then the USGA needs to step up with a better method of testing.

 

Edit #2 Or, the conspiracy theorist in me thinks maybe there's a chance the USGA can let these things slide and accomplish their agenda of an overall distance rollback of some sort.

[bladehunter]

Anyone that thinks face tech and distance is capped needs to hit the new offering from a certain epic club company. I saw 4mph average pickup over my current driver , same shaft yesterday in a sneak peek. New face tech coming. That's using a

Rediculous super computer to simulate scenarios and build. 4 mph is huge with no other changes.

 

I am still on the fence in ways with the whole debate. But after the pga show when it comes out. It will put the " distance is capped " argument to bed. It's isnt. Not unless they change the test . From CT to what I don't know.

 

Are you talking on centered contact? Do you know what the smash factor numbers were? To get those type of gains, it would have to be over the 1.5 right? Same swing speed?

 

Edit: This is also a scenario where I think they need to better enforce their current limits. If the CT test is being exploited to get around the COR limits, then the USGA needs to step up with a better method of testing.

 

I saw several 1.52. Which I know isn’t supposed to be possible. Compared to 1.50 with perfect strikes on my current combo. Saw a couple 1.48 on really bad hit toe misses. Same swing speed. Swapping shaft from one head to another.

 

I hit some stinkers too. But those best ones were magic. This head has a additional mass placed on the back of the face. It’s mkre so high toeside. Looks like a glob or putty. I don’t understand the science. Neither did the rep. Lol. But his exact words were “ it’s a end around of the CT test. And for a guy who hits it high toe for a miss. It’s revolutionary “.

[radiman]

Anyone that thinks face tech and distance is capped needs to hit the new offering from a certain epic club company. I saw 4mph average pickup over my current driver , same shaft yesterday in a sneak peek. New face tech coming. That's using a

Rediculous super computer to simulate scenarios and build. 4 mph is huge with no other changes.

 

I am still on the fence in ways with the whole debate. But after the pga show when it comes out. It will put the " distance is capped " argument to bed. It's isnt. Not unless they change the test . From CT to what I don't know.

 

Are you talking on centered contact? Do you know what the smash factor numbers were? To get those type of gains, it would have to be over the 1.5 right? Same swing speed?

 

Edit: This is also a scenario where I think they need to better enforce their current limits. If the CT test is being exploited to get around the COR limits, then the USGA needs to step up with a better method of testing.

 

I saw several 1.52. Which I know isn't supposed to be possible. Compared to 1.50 with perfect strikes on my current combo. Saw a couple 1.48 on really bad hit toe misses. Same swing speed. Swapping shaft from one head to another.

 

I hit some stinkers too. But those best ones were magic. This head has a additional mass placed on the back of the face. It's mkre so high toeside. Looks like a glob or putty. I don't understand the science. Neither did the rep. Lol. But his exact words were " it's a end around of the CT test. And for a guy who hits it high toe for a miss. It's revolutionary ".

 

Aside from the distance debate, how did the shape of the head look compared to the Rogue? Do you play the standard version or SZ? I don't visually care much for the Rogue, much more of a fan of the Epic.

[bladehunter]

Anyone that thinks face tech and distance is capped needs to hit the new offering from a certain epic club company. I saw 4mph average pickup over my current driver , same shaft yesterday in a sneak peek. New face tech coming. That's using a

Rediculous super computer to simulate scenarios and build. 4 mph is huge with no other changes.

 

I am still on the fence in ways with the whole debate. But after the pga show when it comes out. It will put the " distance is capped " argument to bed. It's isnt. Not unless they change the test . From CT to what I don't know.

 

Are you talking on centered contact? Do you know what the smash factor numbers were? To get those type of gains, it would have to be over the 1.5 right? Same swing speed?

 

Edit: This is also a scenario where I think they need to better enforce their current limits. If the CT test is being exploited to get around the COR limits, then the USGA needs to step up with a better method of testing.

 

I saw several 1.52. Which I know isn't supposed to be possible. Compared to 1.50 with perfect strikes on my current combo. Saw a couple 1.48 on really bad hit toe misses. Same swing speed. Swapping shaft from one head to another.

 

I hit some stinkers too. But those best ones were magic. This head has a additional mass placed on the back of the face. It's mkre so high toeside. Looks like a glob or putty. I don't understand the science. Neither did the rep. Lol. But his exact words were " it's a end around of the CT test. And for a guy who hits it high toe for a miss. It's revolutionary ".

 

Aside from the distance debate, how did the shape of the head look compared to the Rogue? Do you play the standard version or SZ? I don't visually care much for the Rogue, much more of a fan of the Epic.

 

She’s a beauty ! Rounder head. Deeper face. Kind of like a GBB with gloss black top. I play the standard Rogue. I don’t mind the rogue. But it is a bit flat and longer looking head. New one wasn’t like that.

[radiman]

Anyone that thinks face tech and distance is capped needs to hit the new offering from a certain epic club company. I saw 4mph average pickup over my current driver , same shaft yesterday in a sneak peek. New face tech coming. That's using a

Rediculous super computer to simulate scenarios and build. 4 mph is huge with no other changes.

 

I am still on the fence in ways with the whole debate. But after the pga show when it comes out. It will put the " distance is capped " argument to bed. It's isnt. Not unless they change the test . From CT to what I don't know.

 

Are you talking on centered contact? Do you know what the smash factor numbers were? To get those type of gains, it would have to be over the 1.5 right? Same swing speed?

 

Edit: This is also a scenario where I think they need to better enforce their current limits. If the CT test is being exploited to get around the COR limits, then the USGA needs to step up with a better method of testing.

 

I saw several 1.52. Which I know isn't supposed to be possible. Compared to 1.50 with perfect strikes on my current combo. Saw a couple 1.48 on really bad hit toe misses. Same swing speed. Swapping shaft from one head to another.

 

I hit some stinkers too. But those best ones were magic. This head has a additional mass placed on the back of the face. It's mkre so high toeside. Looks like a glob or putty. I don't understand the science. Neither did the rep. Lol. But his exact words were " it's a end around of the CT test. And for a guy who hits it high toe for a miss. It's revolutionary ".

 

Aside from the distance debate, how did the shape of the head look compared to the Rogue? Do you play the standard version or SZ? I don't visually care much for the Rogue, much more of a fan of the Epic.

 

She's a beauty ! Rounder head. Deeper face. Kind of like a GBB with gloss black top. I play the standard Rogue. I don't mind the rogue. But it is a bit flat and longer looking head. New one wasn't like that.

 

Damn it. I am an absolute sucker for Callaway drivers. I forsee myself selling my current equipment soon (season all but over) and saving my pennies. Maybe the USGA will step in and make them dial it back so I can save my money :)

[bladehunter]

dont look at it unless you have the cash ready.. It looks gooood! and the fairways .....best ive seen from them yet ... the whole lineup from irons to hybrids looked good....

[radiman]

dont look at it unless you have the cash ready.. It looks gooood! and the fairways .....best ive seen from them yet ... the whole lineup from irons to hybrids looked good....

 

It'll be hard to avoid seeing it by hanging around this place :)

 

If the irons look like the Xander irons posted a while back, they have something special.

 

I may sell off the Rogue while it still has decent value. I have a G400 LST on the way for no good reason too.

[farmer]

That ball won't ever get used. The powers that be want Rory to still be longer than pretty much everyone else just 20 yards further back. As with most things it's a pure money driven move. More courses available to be used as tour stops could equal more events in places that brings in more beer sales.

There are 47 tour events, the Masters, the two Opens and the PGA. If tour events are moved, they will go to venues with more space for tents and boxes. The golden age courses are smaller, with not as much room for infrastructure, and not as much room for patrons. A reply to Smash, it's always been that way. Long hitters have always had an advantage over shorter hitters. If you pull the longest down to where everyone clusters around 290, the longer hitters are also longer with irons, so their advantage remains.

[bladehunter]

That ball won't ever get used. The powers that be want Rory to still be longer than pretty much everyone else just 20 yards further back. As with most things it's a pure money driven move. More courses available to be used as tour stops could equal more events in places that brings in more beer sales.

There are 47 tour events, the Masters, the two Opens and the PGA. If tour events are moved, they will go to venues with more space for tents and boxes. The golden age courses are smaller, with not as much room for infrastructure, and not as much room for patrons. A reply to Smash, it's always been that way. Long hitters have always had an advantage over shorter hitters. If you pull the longest down to where everyone clusters around 290, the longer hitters are also longer with irons, so their advantage remains.

 

Their advantage actually grows. Which is where I think it should be. Long guy goes from hitting pw to 8 iron. Short guy goes from hitting 8 iron to 5-6 irons.

[North Texas]

has anyone presented something new in the last 22 pages that i have stayed out of or is it more of the same??

 

No. It's the same people, who think they are smarter than everyone else, dominating the thread and saying the same thing they said the page before and the page before and the page before ad nauseam. If this thread was limited to only "original" posts, there would be less than 10 pages. And I'm being generous.

[North Texas]

Anyone that thinks face tech and distance is capped needs to hit the new offering from a certain epic club company. I saw 4mph average pickup over my current driver , same shaft yesterday in a sneak peek. New face tech coming. That's using a

Rediculous super computer to simulate scenarios and build. 4 mph is huge with no other changes.

 

I am still on the fence in ways with the whole debate. But after the pga show when it comes out. It will put the " distance is capped " argument to bed. It's isnt. Not unless they change the test . From CT to what I don't know.

 

Bladehunter gets it. Increased driving distances will continue.

[DFS PFD]

The immortal thread.

[Roadking2003]

That ball won't ever get used. The powers that be want Rory to still be longer than pretty much everyone else just 20 yards further back. As with most things it's a pure money driven move. More courses available to be used as tour stops could equal more events in places that brings in more beer sales.

There are 47 tour events, the Masters, the two Opens and the PGA. If tour events are moved, they will go to venues with more space for tents and boxes. The golden age courses are smaller, with not as much room for infrastructure, and not as much room for patrons. A reply to Smash, it's always been that way. Long hitters have always had an advantage over shorter hitters. If you pull the longest down to where everyone clusters around 290, the longer hitters are also longer with irons, so their advantage remains.

 

Their advantage actually grows. Which is where I think it should be. Long guy goes from hitting pw to 8 iron. Short guy goes from hitting 8 iron to 5-6 irons.

 

The number on the club is meaningless.

[bladehunter]

That ball won't ever get used. The powers that be want Rory to still be longer than pretty much everyone else just 20 yards further back. As with most things it's a pure money driven move. More courses available to be used as tour stops could equal more events in places that brings in more beer sales.

There are 47 tour events, the Masters, the two Opens and the PGA. If tour events are moved, they will go to venues with more space for tents and boxes. The golden age courses are smaller, with not as much room for infrastructure, and not as much room for patrons. A reply to Smash, it's always been that way. Long hitters have always had an advantage over shorter hitters. If you pull the longest down to where everyone clusters around 290, the longer hitters are also longer with irons, so their advantage remains.

 

Their advantage actually grows. Which is where I think it should be. Long guy goes from hitting pw to 8 iron. Short guy goes from hitting 8 iron to 5-6 irons.

 

The number on the club is meaningless.

 

Lol. Ok. So you’d play someone of your exact skill level and allow them 2 clubs less into every green ? We both know it matters.

 

I’m not talking jacked lofts vs not. I’m saying a long hitter gets more advantage by putting a mid iron into the short hitters hand. The game now allows most hitters to get a lot of wedges into greens. Which takes the long hitters advantage away.

 

Todays equipment is a way of handicapping the game to allow the short guy more scorin opportunity.

 

I’m not even arguing right or wrong on that point. But the idea that rolling back equipment , be it ball or clubs or both is taking the long hitters advanatage away is backwards thinking. Long hitters are long because of their ability. Short hitters are average because of equipment.

 

 

All you have to do to prove that is compare how long they carry Driver to how long they carry full wedge shots. Plenty of short guys hit Driver 250 total and a sand wedge 90 yards or less. Those two figures don’t match.

[gvogel]

That ball won't ever get used. The powers that be want Rory to still be longer than pretty much everyone else just 20 yards further back. As with most things it's a pure money driven move. More courses available to be used as tour stops could equal more events in places that brings in more beer sales.

There are 47 tour events, the Masters, the two Opens and the PGA. If tour events are moved, they will go to venues with more space for tents and boxes. The golden age courses are smaller, with not as much room for infrastructure, and not as much room for patrons. A reply to Smash, it's always been that way. Long hitters have always had an advantage over shorter hitters. If you pull the longest down to where everyone clusters around 290, the longer hitters are also longer with irons, so their advantage remains.

 

Their advantage actually grows. Which is where I think it should be. Long guy goes from hitting pw to 8 iron. Short guy goes from hitting 8 iron to 5-6 irons.

 

The number on the club is meaningless.

 

REally?

 

How about you go out and hit 20 8-iron shots to a green, and report your average dispersion from the target.

 

Then go back to 5-iron distance and hit 20 shots, and report your results from there.

 

Sure, you might be the one guy in 1,000 who hits your 5-iron more accurately than your 8-iron, but I know which club I would rather be hitting into the green.

[smashdn]

A reply to Smash, it's always been that way. Long hitters have always had an advantage over shorter hitters. If you pull the longest down to where everyone clusters around 290, the longer hitters are also longer with irons, so their advantage remains.

 

My point wasn't so much related to rolling back equipment or even equipment in general. More that the way to keep the shorter guys competitive is to place a greater reward on ball striking and putting, aspects of the game that the advances in equipment have impacted less than what they have on distance.

 

The courses that a Zach Johnson or Jim Furyk or Corey Pavin were/could be competitive on are shorter courses that place a premium on shot placement and less on distance. But few people are lining up to buy tickets to see DJ lay up off the tee.

 

If chicks still dig the long ball the Tour is looking for places that put the big dog in their hands 14/18 times. That takes the shorter hitters out of contention as the more weighted reward is distance.

 

 

 

As far as always an advantage, I would be curious to see what a distribution looks like from shortest average drivers to longest from say 1990 compared to 2017. Is the 2017 graph steeper? More spread? Normally distributed? I assume the data is out there I just don't know where it hides to do the analysis. Broadie?

 

^My point there is that if there is a more concentrated distribution from shortest to longest (less difference) more people are contenders. If it is more heavily distributed to the long end of the scale or spread farther or even a fewer number but more spread to the longest end then the advantage is not proportionally divied among the players. The advantage in driving distance outweighs the advantage a good putter or good ball striker has on the field.

[new2g0lf]

That ball won't ever get used. The powers that be want Rory to still be longer than pretty much everyone else just 20 yards further back. As with most things it's a pure money driven move. More courses available to be used as tour stops could equal more events in places that brings in more beer sales.

There are 47 tour events, the Masters, the two Opens and the PGA. If tour events are moved, they will go to venues with more space for tents and boxes. The golden age courses are smaller, with not as much room for infrastructure, and not as much room for patrons. A reply to Smash, it's always been that way. Long hitters have always had an advantage over shorter hitters. If you pull the longest down to where everyone clusters around 290, the longer hitters are also longer with irons, so their advantage remains.

 

Their advantage actually grows. Which is where I think it should be. Long guy goes from hitting pw to 8 iron. Short guy goes from hitting 8 iron to 5-6 irons.

 

The number on the club is meaningless.

 

REally?

 

How about you go out and hit 20 8-iron shots to a green, and report your average dispersion from the target.

 

Then go back to 5-iron distance and hit 20 shots, and report your results from there.

 

Sure, you might be the one guy in 1,000 who hits your 5-iron more accurately than your 8-iron, but I know which club I would rather be hitting into the green.

 

The number on the bottom of the club is meaningless, a pros 8 iron is not the same as our 8 iron, you can't compare what they hit to what what the average golfer hits.

[bladehunter]

 

How so ? Until very recently my 8 iron was from a set based off a 49 degree pw.

 

And you’re missing the point. I’m not comparing pros to ams. I’m comparing short hitters to long. You can think am or pro in that scenario. Not am vs pro

[bladehunter]

Anyone catch morning drive this morning ? 5 guys on set took the usga quiz question that asks you to allocate a percentage to 7 components that contribute to modern distance. 4 of the 5 cited ball and Driver with highest percentage. Only 1 guy ( I don’t know his name wasn’t a regular like the other 4 ) cited fitness as the higher percentage. And he contradicted himself by saying he hit less ball speed from modern equipment and had gone back to a 2003 Driver which he hit farther. And said “ maybe I was just fit for the perfect combo for me then “. Which doesn’t work because what tour player is going to still fit the same combo 15 years later ? Especially after he says he’s 20 mph in ball speed slower than he was back then on tour. Math doesn’t work.

 

Each cited the course setup at a mere 5% of the pie and Charlie Rymer claimed to have just found 20 yards in a head swap alone. And also followed that up by saying he’s certainly much longer now than his tour days. And his fitness is no where near what he once was.

 

They did go on to have mixed feelings on an actual rollback. Much like me. But there is no denying what they feel is the cause of the gains. These are former tour players , and reporters who’ve followed tour players for years. Surely they know a little bit ?

 

I could agree that a rollback would be overall a s*** show. But. I cannot agree with folks who deny that the gains are mostly equipment related. It isn’t fitness. Thefast guys are born fast. Period. Double period. It’s the ball and the big Driver. In theback of everyone’s mind they know it. If we could agree there then the debate could move to the actual question.

 

Is it good or not to roll it back ? And to answer that we need to know the actual scenarios. As in how ? I guess we wait for that info to come down.