Interesting development - $3000 pay to caddy from a $1.3 million winners check? (MOD EDIT - NO POLIT

[Krt22]

Bingo. The whole notion that the very wealthy should give disproportionately large tips "because they can afford it" or "it won't make a difference to them" isn't something I've ever bought into. How much someone can afford and how much they should pay for something shouldn't be linked

 

The 10% tour caddies get is part of their contract. Unless they are friends or family members, let's not forget how many years most those guys have been on a bag to even get the chance to be a full time caddy for a top 50 player who has a chance to win and reap that big pay day.

 

With that being said, how much kuch tipped this looper for the week isn't my business and I don't think any less of him if he didn't meet the internet's expectations of what is "fair" just because he won.

 

 

 

 

[lowheel]

Matt Kuchar might have thought he was being very smart but this has turned around and bit him on the a** . It is very bad publicity for him and something that will stick for a while if not forever .

You can be cheap but you cannot be down right mean .

 

Hes made 47 million playing pro golf.think about that for a second. He doesnt lose a wink of sleep over any of this. Social media mobs dont have any power over you or your actions unless you give it to them.

 

Maybe, they all go on about "their brand" and in this case the guy has spent his career working the happy go lucky nice guy routine (like Phil it may be all natural). Does it hurt his earning power in the future, it may be neutral but its not a positive.

 

Im sure all that sexy bridgestone and skechers money disappears now because of this....

[lowheel]

I haven't posted in this today because there's so only so much one can go in circles....but did we actually find out anything new?

 

No other then the same people doubling down and using buzzwords like "fair", "appropriate" & "common sense" & so on.. you get the idea...

 

And the other side doubling down with useless, irrelevant "logic" like "$5,000 is a lot for anyone" and "what if Kuchar had missed the cut?".

 

I know, narrative busters are tough to answer.Right? or is my comment not "fair" ;)

[CasualLie]

Tucan had quite a week. He caddied at the qualifier and his guy made it in the field. So Tucan ditched him for Kuchar???

 

Anyway, as it turns out $5k was all the cash Matt could muster. He had to get it from his wife Sybi who made $5k caddying for Zach Johnson for four holes. ;)

[rangersgoalie]

Again one of the top players in the world offers you a 3-4 weeks salary ($3,000) to carry his bag for 4 days. Who are you to say no? Kuch knew it was a cheap move and then bumped it to $5,000 when he won......

 

Seems pretty obvious to me that he screwed the guy.

 

Should have made it right when he won (and I bet as said before that $30,000 and no one says diddly.

 

1) IF they agreed on 3g and Kuch gave him 5g that’s a nice % increase (alternate view)

2) no way if he paid 30g an it came out that some of the same people wouldn’t be saying he screwed the caddy by not giving 10%

 

I think you've been closer to the situation than anybody and have unique perspective.

 

What would you give in the guy and what, in your estimation, would most players have given in this exact situation?

 

I’m a different generation, so not fair to say what most players would do.

I’d like to think I’d pay what we agreed to at beginning of the week and a bonus.

Probably 5% or so in that type of purse

 

But I mentioned earlier in this thread my experience in Asia....at that time I really didn’t know what to. Paid a bonus I wasn’t sure was enough and our host club thought was way too much....caddies reaction was positive I felt.

 

In a tour event after all my experiences for years, I definitely would have worked a deal out prior though, and would have used the local people for the correct/proper thing to pay for the week.

 

I was always struggling to keep status most years, so was probably a low to middle pay player, I just didn’t have a lot for most of my career.

But I had no problem, paying going rates for a great caddy, but it took a lot back then for me to call someone a great caddy, and when I had one, I was a joy.......a few guys that were great friends and great caddies

 

 

[OldTomMorris]

Its universally understood caddies get a slice of a win. This guy was a one-off caddy so nobody should think he's entitled to 10% but even 1% would have been a decent earner.

 

We are told caddies at PGA Tour level, even with these vast sums of money involved, don't have any formal written agreements so the yardstick has to be the "norm".

 

IF the rumours have foundation then the caddy was stiffed.

[80sFredriksson]

In before players start having caddies sign NDAs about their pay so they can stiff them without breaking a sweat.

 

Ok on a serious note we the audience and golfers are what makes the pros make as much money as they do, I personally think if the story is true it is disgraceful and not something we should approve of, the pga tour and european tour should lead the way and have some rules related to minimum caddy bonuses

[Krt22]

In before players start having caddies sign NDAs about their pay so they can stiff them without breaking a sweat.

 

Ok on a serious note we the audience and golfers are what makes the pros make as much money as they do, I personally think if the story is true it is disgraceful and not something we should approve of, the pga tour and european tour should lead the way and have some rules related to minimum caddy bonuses

. That won't happen. The players are independent contractors, as are the caddies. No one is forcing them to enter the tournaments or pick up the bags.

[80sFredriksson]

In before players start having caddies sign NDAs about their pay so they can stiff them without breaking a sweat.

 

Ok on a serious note we the audience and golfers are what makes the pros make as much money as they do, I personally think if the story is true it is disgraceful and not something we should approve of, the pga tour and european tour should lead the way and have some rules related to minimum caddy bonuses

. That won't happen. The players are independent contractors, as are the caddies. No one is forcing them to enter the tournaments or pick up the bags.

 

So you think they would stop entering tournaments if they had to pay say a minimum bonus of 2% of the winnings for a top 10 to get a share of the purse, lol, its just not a good look for the tours

[rangersgoalie]

What a lot of pga tour caddies likely do NOT want is for people to really know what they earn each year

 

Shhhhhh

 

Everything is fine

[Mr. Grumpy]

Most of the rich people I know are stingy with their money, unless you're a charity.

It's fun watching/reading this, I don't think less of Kuchar, nor does it cloud my view of the wealthy.

 

I do however want to shame the Boston native/visitor who walked off with my new brown Outdoor Research gloves! You #%@*^#&!

[Holy Moses]

Gillis said he had an unimpeachable source tell him that Ortiz only got $3k. Well, his source was wrong. $5k is still a little cheap, but Gillis came across pretty bad.

[jj9000]

In before players start having caddies sign NDAs about their pay so they can stiff them without breaking a sweat.

 

In before someone brings up the notion that these players are really really good at golf...and can compete at the highest level with a resort Caddie and language barrier.

 

Could these guys/gals on Tour compete at the highest level without a Caddie?

 

How experienced was Justine Reed when she carried Patrick's bag? They seem to have done just fine.

 

The Tour caddies likely want this type of story to go away. It certainly doesn't bolster their case for better wages...and Tom Gillis is doing more harm to the value of caddies than he's doing good.

 

In other words...if I can win with a resort Caddie...why do I need to fork over 10% week-in and week-out? I'll just pull John/Jane Doe out of the crowd and pay them a flat fee to carry my bag.

[golfandfishing]

Here’s a twist, and I heard it from a source close to the banco teller:

 

Kuchar gave the guy all the cash he had on him- about $3k. He promised to wire him $25k, and did via western union. When the caddie went to claim it, the teller gave him $2,500 and pocketed the rest.

 

El fin.

[Rangeballz]

Most of the rich people I know are stingy with their money......

 

I have found this to be true as well, with very few exceptions.

[jmck]

If I was a fill in caddie and my guy paid me $5k on $1.3 million I’d be PISSED.

 

I mean come on! That’s gone in like 10 minutes on the BST!

 

What if he paid you 3k and he missed the cut? why would you be pissed if thats the # you agreed to on wednesday?

 

'Twas a joke my friend. I've been trying to keep my comments few and lighthearted on this one. This is one of those topics where your view is entirely informed by how you view everything else in life. Everyone's going to have an opinion, and no one is going to change anyone else's mind. Hence it's not worth getting worked up about, one way or the other.

 

Anyway, here's my serious take on it, FWIW (nothing):

 

Don't want some rando calling you out for being a cheapskate? Don't be a cheapskate.

 

There are way too many people shooting the messenger here, and way too many people mistaking the court of public opinion for a court of law.

 

There it is. My two cents. I'm a bleeding heart social justice warrior so your cut of that is a third of a penny. PM me your address and the check is in the mail :)

[Hawkeye77]

Ok, iʻve read all the postʻs, opinions for and against, the one line that jumps out at me is El Toucan saying he told Kuchar to calm down at some point late in the tournament. ET isnʻt some slug lugging bags for beer and Senorita’s, the guy is a professional caddie and undoubtedly helped Kuchar win the tourney. $3-5,000 is chump change out of the 1st place check.

Pay the man, he earned it that week.

 

Take it easy man.

 

(That will be $100 please).

[Atrayn]

So when I sell my house do I now need to give the gardener 10%? Seems so based on this thread....

Also, someone needs to investigate if Kuch is a Christian, because if he is, he needs to give the Church their share too...

You bunch of hypocrites....

[Dpavs]

 

 

True enough DP4, but if any of this is true, who was in the better position to be the guy who does the right thing. Sometimes in life it's not about the legal thing, it's not about what you can do... it's about what you should do, right?

 

Assuming everything stated is accurate, without a doubt Kuch had a chance to do the right thing if they never talked about the caddie fees. Hopefully the entire truth will come out or more importantly, that the caddie is OK with what he earned for his service.

 

I totally agree. Though to me it's not as much as with whether the guy was OK with whatever transpired, but whether he was treated fairly. That's the bottom line to me.

 

But your definition of "fairly" is irrelevant.

 

No I don't think so. Even in professional golf there is a customary or usual standard which is observed for paying caddies, subs, instructors, etc. Staying within the bounds of that standard is what I mean by fairly... not some arbitrary thing in someone's head so I think it is very relevant.

[Hawkeye77]

So when I sell my house do I now need to give the gardener 10%? Seems so based on this thread....

Also, someone needs to investigate if Kuch is a Christian, because if he is, he needs to give the Church their share too...

You bunch of hypocrites....

 

Hey, if that baby shows because those peonies were sublime and the gardener also told you to relax before the open house!

[Hawkeye77]

True enough DP4, but if any of this is true, who was in the better position to be the guy who does the right thing. Sometimes in life it's not about the legal thing, it's not about what you can do... it's about what you should do, right?

 

Assuming everything stated is accurate, without a doubt Kuch had a chance to do the right thing if they never talked about the caddie fees. Hopefully the entire truth will come out or more importantly, that the caddie is OK with what he earned for his service.

 

I totally agree. Though to me it's not as much as with whether the guy was OK with whatever transpired, but whether he was treated fairly. That's the bottom line to me.

 

But your definition of "fairly" is irrelevant.

 

No I don't think so. Even in professional golf there is a customary or usual standard which is observed for paying caddies, subs, instructors, etc. Staying within the bounds of that standard is what I mean by fairly... not some arbitrary thing in someone's head so I think it is very relevant.

 

Hmmmm, that would be the standard for using local caddies at that particular golf course? You want to use whatever you think the standard is for a PGA Tour player and a regular Tour caddie? Isn't the "standard" whatever they agree on? Standard vs. standard vs. standard - you are still injecting your subjective values into a situation you were not involved in and really, is none of your business or mine.

[Under2hours]

Don't want some rando calling you out for being a cheapskate? Don't be a cheapskate.

 

 

And that sir is exactly the point.

 

Two ways Kuchar handles it.....

 

1. He paid a lot more $3,000 and states it emphatically, without disclosing the number & confirmed by the caddy (though I'd be cynical as to whether he was coerced I admit). The fact he has given no context on the difference between $130,000 & $3,000 sealed his fate imo.

2. He says he has reflected, realizes that what he thought was a fair agreement & $2,000 bonus was not and has paid him commensurate with the going rate (be it an annuity or college fund) but not 10% as has been explained prior is very high...... And I learned a lesson and hope all have from this incident & apologize....

 

Of course #2 would never come out of an athlete's mouth...... :taunt:

[Dpavs]

 

 

 

 

But your definition of "fairly" is irrelevant.

 

No I don't think so. Even in professional golf there is a customary or usual standard which is observed for paying caddies, subs, instructors, etc. Staying within the bounds of that standard is what I mean by fairly... not some arbitrary thing in someone's head so I think it is very relevant.

 

Hmmmm, that would be the standard for using local caddies at that particular golf course? You want to use whatever you think the standard is for a PGA Tour player and a regular Tour caddie? Isn't the "standard" whatever they agree on? Standard vs. standard vs. standard - you are still injecting your subjective values into a situation you were not involved in and really, is none of your business or mine.

 

Actually no it is not. There is a much different standard in Professional golf during a tournament than a round of play by the average Joe at a club. Standards in the sense I referred to them are what is is customary within the industry (in this case PGA golf is the industry). Industry standards are not subjective they are established by what is generally acceptable within the industry itself ... I am not sure of your reasoning why they would be subjective unless you mean in relation to the industry, then yes in that sense they are, but they are not subjective in relation to a single individual.

[Ghostwedge]

Ok, iʻve read all the postʻs, opinions for and against, the one line that jumps out at me is El Toucan saying he told Kuchar to calm down at some point late in the tournament. ET isnʻt some slug lugging bags for beer and Senorita’s, the guy is a professional caddie and undoubtedly helped Kuchar win the tourney. $3-5,000 is chump change out of the 1st place check.

Pay the man, he earned it that week.

 

Take it easy man.

 

(That will be $100 please).Props for The Eagles reference and if the Hawkeyes make the Final 4, iʻll wing you a C note.

[Atrayn]

Well....based on this thread it's crystal clear now that the PGA Tour needs to step in and establish "official" caddy pay standards for all types of caddies... :russian_roulette:

[jj9000]

Well....based on this thread it's crystal clear now that the PGA Tour needs to step in and establish "official" caddy pay standards for all types of caddies... :russian_roulette:

 

Nah.

 

It's more of a "don't tell me how to spend my money based on your value system...which...may or may not differ from my value system."

 

I'm a big boy and can handle my personal financial interests without someone (or entity) regulating what they think should come out of my pocket.

 

My money = My business

 

Your money = Your business

 

 

(using "your" here in a broad context...not to point a finger at you personally)

[jmck]

Well....based on this thread it's crystal clear now that the PGA Tour needs to step in and establish "official" caddy pay standards for all types of caddies... :russian_roulette:

 

It might surprise you to know that the caddies themselves established a professional "association," which is basically a union by another name. Their main beefs are not with the players or compensation though, their beef is with the PGA tour itself, and the people running individual tournaments. They've gotten the PGA tour to chip in for their health care, and tournament organizers to give them sandwiches in the clubhouse, rather than a bag of chips in the parking lot.

[Atrayn]

Well....based on this thread it's crystal clear now that the PGA Tour needs to step in and establish "official" caddy pay standards for all types of caddies... :russian_roulette:

 

Nah.

 

It's more of a "don't tell me how to spend my money based on your value system...which...may or may not differ from my value system."

 

I'm a big boy and can handle my personal financial interests without someone (or entity) regulating what they think should come out of my pocket.

 

My money = My business

 

Your money = Your business

 

 

(using "your" here in a broad context...not to point a finger at you personally)

 

Thanks for the clarification because I was about to freaking reach through the screen and punch you in the face (kidding)...lol and I agree

[Frostfield]

Some people are very cheap regardless of their financial situation. Some of them wear it like a badge with pride. I can’t stand those people. Nothing worse than a cheapskate. *waits patiently for the cheapskates on the board to attack *

[DavePelz4]

Its universally understood caddies get a slice of a win. This guy was a one-off caddy so nobody should think he's entitled to 10% but even 1% would have been a decent earner.

 

We are told caddies at PGA Tour level, even with these vast sums of money involved, don't have any formal written agreements so the yardstick has to be the "norm".

 

IF the rumours have foundation then the caddy was stiffed.

 

Wondering how much Mickelson paid his caddie when he won the 1991 Northern Telecom Open.