Kuchar/El Tucan caddie controversy (NO POLITICS)

[jasonfish11]

Actually I like both answers. First of all a contract is a contract. The world falls apart when that no longer applies. Kuchar fulfilled his agreed to obligations and even gave a bonus.

Having said that I would have given the guy more. That's just me. But I would never presume to tell someone else what to do with his money. Every pro golfer has worked insanely hard and dedicated their live to get their rewards...which are not guaranteed by any means. A gun for hire, 1 week caddie, is paid to show up, keep up, and shut up. Hired unskilled labor. That's it. The caddie doen't know English so he gave minimal help. We don't know the situation at all. For all we know he could have been a complete dick all week. Publicly demanding more after the fact is pretty sketch in my book. One thing is for sure. Neither guy comes out of this looking great. But the caddie looks worse in my eyes.

 

Is it a "contract" if it's not fully executed?

 

 

 

No but the contract was executed, so why ask a dumb question? Oh my bad I know the answer to that...

[jasonfish11]

I met all of my goals last year and my bonus was way less than El Toucan got as a percentage of my employers profits.

 

I got somewhere in the range of 0.00244% bonus on my companies profit. El Tucan got a bonus that was about 100 times bigger than mine and he only worked for 5 or 6 days when I worked for 40-50 times the amount of time that he did. Should I complain?

 

Also I'm comparing my companies profits to Kuchars winnings (revenue). If we looked at revenue based bonus from my company (like you are looking at for kuch) I'm even worse off then.

 

Quick what is the number for a good labor lawyer?

If the company had only two employees total and you were one of them, I suspect you'd be pretty pissed about it.

 

No I negotiate salary (including bonus structure) before I accept a job. I'm not dumb enough to think I'm owed anything outside of my salary. It's sad to see many people on here are that dumb though.

You negotiated a 0.00244% bonus structure before taking the job???

 

My bonus isn't based on company revenue. Mine is a % of my salary if I meet my goals. So if we are comparing apples to apples then El Toucan received a 25% bonus ($1k bonus for $4k salary), which again is larger than mine.

[bscinstnct]

Actually I like both answers. First of all a contract is a contract. The world falls apart when that no longer applies. Kuchar fulfilled his agreed to obligations and even gave a bonus.

Having said that I would have given the guy more. That's just me. But I would never presume to tell someone else what to do with his money. Every pro golfer has worked insanely hard and dedicated their live to get their rewards...which are not guaranteed by any means. A gun for hire, 1 week caddie, is paid to show up, keep up, and shut up. Hired unskilled labor. That's it. The caddie doen't know English so he gave minimal help. We don't know the situation at all. For all we know he could have been a complete dick all week. Publicly demanding more after the fact is pretty sketch in my book. One thing is for sure. Neither guy comes out of this looking great. But the caddie looks worse in my eyes.

 

Is it a "contract" if it's not fully executed?

 

 

 

No but it was so why ask a dumb question? Oh my bad I know the answer to that...

 

Really? According to who?

 

One party claims a completely different agreement/lack of agreement.

 

You see any proof provided the contract was executed?

 

You can argue that Kuch stated the terms. But, Tuc's statements indicate he never agreed to them.

 

So, call it what you will, but I don't see any evidence of something that can be called an executed contract.

[Oldboy]

I met all of my goals last year and my bonus was way less than El Toucan got as a percentage of my employers profits.

 

I got somewhere in the range of 0.00244% bonus on my companies profit. El Tucan got a bonus that was about 100 times bigger than mine and he only worked for 5 or 6 days when I worked for 40-50 times the amount of time that he did. Should I complain?

 

Also I'm comparing my companies profits to Kuchars winnings (revenue). If we looked at revenue based bonus from my company (like you are looking at for kuch) I'm even worse off then.

 

Quick what is the number for a good labor lawyer?

If the company had only two employees total and you were one of them, I suspect you'd be pretty pissed about it.

 

No I negotiate salary (including bonus structure) before I accept a job. I'm not dumb enough to think I'm owed anything outside of my salary. It's sad to see many people on here are that dumb though.

You negotiated a 0.00244% bonus structure before taking the job???

 

My bonus isn't based on company revenue. Mine is a % of my salary if I meet my goals. So if we are comparing apples to apples then El Toucan received a 25% bonus ($1k bonus for $4k salary), which again is larger than mine.

 

He helped the guy win the tournament. I’d say goal met and beyond. Can’t do better than win it

[Danny Choo]

A smart Matt Kuchar would have stated we had a contract and it was honored, and I threw in a1K bonus at the end. The language in his latest statement will cause him some trouble and his people need to act fast before this story takes a turn for the worse. Mentioning the guy earned $200 a week and $4K is a lot of money should have never come from his mouth. The question is, if he played on US soil would he make the same offer to a sub? In the end this can cause some sponsors to pull the plug as this can cause serious ramifications for companies.

[BearQ]

It’s bad look for kuch no matter how you look at it. His continued comments and lines like “200 a day, that’s a good week for him” come off very out of touch.

 

I didn’t care about this story initially. Thought he was undeniably cheap for his pay out but that was all. After hearing more comments and views about it directly from him, it’s leaving me annoyed and put off by Kuch.

 

It’s a bad look for him and it’s noticeably affecting his public image. All of which could have easily been corrected. I think karma may collect some revenge shortly. Gotta even those scales

[Dpavs]

I am guessing this thread will also be destined for...

 

Should just be the coffin instead of the cooler because that's where threads go to die.

 

I do start to get the feeling that all that can be said, has been said... and it is doubtful that anyone is going to change anyone else's mind at this point.

[Dpavs]

Actually I like both answers. First of all a contract is a contract. The world falls apart when that no longer applies. Kuchar fulfilled his agreed to obligations and even gave a bonus.

Having said that I would have given the guy more. That's just me. But I would never presume to tell someone else what to do with his money. Every pro golfer has worked insanely hard and dedicated their live to get their rewards...which are not guaranteed by any means. A gun for hire, 1 week caddie, is paid to show up, keep up, and shut up. Hired unskilled labor. That's it. The caddie doen't know English so he gave minimal help. We don't know the situation at all. For all we know he could have been a complete dick all week. Publicly demanding more after the fact is pretty sketch in my book. One thing is for sure. Neither guy comes out of this looking great. But the caddie looks worse in my eyes.

 

Is it a "contract" if it's not fully executed?

 

 

 

Or if there was no meeting of the minds to begin with and each understood different things from the get go?

[BearQ]

Disappointed in Kuch as he continues to bury himself.. doesn’t come across well any way you slice it.

 

There is no way the headache, PR mess and reputation blow is worth not just paying a reasonable relatively minuscule amount that tucan would have accepted.

 

I’ll stay away from the debates of contracts, younger vs older generation, economics etc. He should have paid more than 5k, it’s a joke.

 

Long time Kuch fan and wasn’t just for the golf- personality, tennis player, struggled before success etc. I don’t dislike him going forward but I’m disappointed and will be hard to actively root for him

[straightshot7]

I met all of my goals last year and my bonus was way less than El Toucan got as a percentage of my employers profits.

 

I got somewhere in the range of 0.00244% bonus on my companies profit. El Tucan got a bonus that was about 100 times bigger than mine and he only worked for 5 or 6 days when I worked for 40-50 times the amount of time that he did. Should I complain?

 

Also I'm comparing my companies profits to Kuchars winnings (revenue). If we looked at revenue based bonus from my company (like you are looking at for kuch) I'm even worse off then.

 

Quick what is the number for a good labor lawyer?

If the company had only two employees total and you were one of them, I suspect you'd be pretty pissed about it.

 

No I negotiate salary (including bonus structure) before I accept a job. I'm not dumb enough to think I'm owed anything outside of my salary. It's sad to see many people on here are that dumb though.

You negotiated a 0.00244% bonus structure before taking the job???

 

My bonus isn't based on company revenue. Mine is a % of my salary if I meet my goals. So if we are comparing apples to apples then El Toucan received a 25% bonus ($1k bonus for $4k salary), which again is larger than mine.

 

The problem is, your comparisons to your own compensation are the definition of apples to oranges.

 

Caddies have a unique bonus structure that has been what it is for decades.

 

The full time caddie gets 10% bonus usually on a win. El Tucan got a .10-.15% bonus or so on this win. Not even 1%. Some people feel it wasn't enough. Most feel that even a temporary fill in should have gotten 2-3% at least. Even PGA Tour pros have said what Kuchar paid is embarrassing.

 

So, sorry but your comparisons to your own salary are totally irrelevant. We have much more applicable standards to compare this to, such as what other players paid their fill-in caddies in the past. Which again was much higher than what El Tucan got.

[Lagavulin62]

I thought this was all an oral agreement? Where is this contract coming from?

 

I think he should have been paid more, even though it’s up to Kucher to decide what that amount is. I don’t think negotiating a tip amount beforehand(above the set 5000) applies to a fill in caddie because he is pretty much at the mercy of the golfer. Kucher didn’t have to take him on and I’m sure El Tucan understood that well. Thats prob why he didn’t push the added bonus beforehand and was just hoping Kucher would take care of him to his satisfaction. That was very naive thinking on El Tucan’s part. So when the offer came fir an additiinal 15,000 he should have grabbed it and learned something.

 

Back to Kucher, he was not obligated to pay more. But just like at a restaurant I can leave a 10c tip if I want, it just doesn’t make me look good.

[PaulCar65]

So how much is $5000 grand?

I know it was 5 grand, but 5,000 grand seems like a lot of money.

[Jc0]

Actually I like both answers. First of all a contract is a contract. The world falls apart when that no longer applies. Kuchar fulfilled his agreed to obligations and even gave a bonus.

Having said that I would have given the guy more. That's just me. But I would never presume to tell someone else what to do with his money. Every pro golfer has worked insanely hard and dedicated their live to get their rewards...which are not guaranteed by any means. A gun for hire, 1 week caddie, is paid to show up, keep up, and shut up. Hired unskilled labor. That's it. The caddie doen't know English so he gave minimal help. We don't know the situation at all. For all we know he could have been a complete dick all week. Publicly demanding more after the fact is pretty sketch in my book. One thing is for sure. Neither guy comes out of this looking great. But the caddie looks worse in my eyes.

 

Is it a "contract" if it's not fully executed?

 

 

 

Or if there was no meeting of the minds to begin with and each understood different things from the get go?

 

It was clear. Bleacher report had an a piece stating that he was to be paid $4000 for a top 10 finish. At first I was on the caddie side, but the more I think about it I agree with Kutcher. The caddie was expected at most to get $4000. A top 10 was worth $165,000, so he already knew he would get a tiny cut if Kutcher did well. At that point anything Kutcher puts on top of that is a nice bonus. This guy literally just carried his bag for 4 days, did not give help (he stated the only part he contributed was a telling him to calm down at one point), and got paid above his agreed amount. It no other place would people be screaming for the boss to give him more money. If you saved your company 1 million dollars maybe they give you a few hundred bonus. Patrik Mahoms just got the Chiefs to the NFC championship but no one is screaming at the chiefs to pay him 15 million tomorrow like the other QBs that were. This is the crappy part about signing a contract that we experience every day, but for some reason in this situation it's Kutcher's fault for not providing a bonus above and beyond the expect pay.

[Jackhammer993]

Happy to see the media not just bypassing this story and that it’s getting some notice outside of golf circles. I hope Kuchar feels some heat from this no matter how well he sleeps.

[vanillafunk616]

Everyone has very flexible morality when it comes to their own bank account.

[Dpavs]

Actually I like both answers. First of all a contract is a contract. The world falls apart when that no longer applies. Kuchar fulfilled his agreed to obligations and even gave a bonus.

Having said that I would have given the guy more. That's just me. But I would never presume to tell someone else what to do with his money. Every pro golfer has worked insanely hard and dedicated their live to get their rewards...which are not guaranteed by any means. A gun for hire, 1 week caddie, is paid to show up, keep up, and shut up. Hired unskilled labor. That's it. The caddie doen't know English so he gave minimal help. We don't know the situation at all. For all we know he could have been a complete dick all week. Publicly demanding more after the fact is pretty sketch in my book. One thing is for sure. Neither guy comes out of this looking great. But the caddie looks worse in my eyes.

 

Is it a "contract" if it's not fully executed?

 

 

 

Or if there was no meeting of the minds to begin with and each understood different things from the get go?

 

It was clear. Bleacher report had an a piece stating that he was to be paid $4000 for a top 10 finish. At first I was on the caddie side, but the more I think about it I agree with Kutcher. The caddie was expected at most to get $4000. A top 10 was worth $165,000, so he already knew he would get a tiny cut if Kutcher did well. At that point anything Kutcher puts on top of that is a nice bonus. This guy literally just carried his bag for 4 days, did not give help (he stated the only part he contributed was a telling him to calm down at one point), and got paid above his agreed amount. It no other place would people be screaming for the boss to give him more money. If you saved your company 1 million dollars maybe they give you a few hundred bonus. Patrik Mahoms just got the Chiefs to the NFC championship but no one is screaming at the chiefs to pay him 15 million tomorrow like the other QBs that were. This is the crappy part about signing a contract that we experience every day, but for some reason in this situation it's Kutcher's fault for not providing a bonus above and beyond the expect pay.

 

I don't see anything in Bleacher reports article that even suggest what you indicated. Despite that every report I have read which talks about a 4K sum is solely based Kuchar's statements... the caddie never confirmed that was their agreement. If you see something else please share a link with us.

[RochesterGuy]

I understand that a deal is a deal. But this deal make KUCH look like el Cheapo.

 

He should send the guy a check for 50K and be done with it. He will lose more than that in endorsements if this goes on.

 

Being cheap is a bad look for a guy with that much money.

[isaacbm]

I just don’t understand why people think Caddy’s should be paid so much. There is an enormous supply and a tiny demand. Hell, I’d be willing to pay Kuchar $1000 to let me come caddy for him for a week ! Inside the ropes while playing with undoubtably two other top 20 players in the world? Where do I sign!

 

It’s carrying luggage people! The fact that the guy didn’t even speak the same language is even more proof of how little role a caddy plays!

Langer win with his daughter on the bag this week. She’s had 2 other weeks experience carrying a bag.

 

You telling me most guys in this site wouldn’t PAY to carry kuchars bag for a week?!

 

None of any of our business !

 

 

[dcfas]

I am guessing this thread will also be destined for...

 

I’m digging that cooler.

 

This all would probably not be an issue if Kooch didn’t win over a million. The caddie is not a PGA tour caddie. Those guys are away from family, living in hotel rooms, making a living that is never certain as to how much they will earn week to week. They function as psychologists, coaches, parents, and best buds. Then they have to make sure there are enough balls in the bag and dry gloves in the pocket. El Toucan is not a tour caddie.

 

But, we are talking about a million bucks. He was a part of that win. 50k seems right to me.

[Z1ggy16]

Saw a link or something while surfing some social media app today I think saying Kuch was quoted, and paraphrasing that "a guy who makes $200 a day should be happy with a $5k payday".

 

I'm sorry but Kuch is just digging his hole deeper. That's such a horrible reason to short change a guy... Because he makes some amount you deem very low, you also must pay him low and tell him he should feel lucky just to get that? Kuch tipped him .1% of his winnings... That's insulting. 3-5% would have been appropriate.

[vietnameeh]

I wonder what kind of warm welcome he's going to get at the WGC-Mexico event

[Retsdon]

There's another point here. By being such a cheapskate Kuchar has done serious damage to the image of golf,and the professional game in particular.

[qtlaw]

Whatever the deal was, if Kuchar is sticking to the contract,that's fine but he's got to know that if it wasn't exactly spelled out, he's going to get heat for it. Someone should have told him, if he didn't know it already, "isn't paying $50k or even $75k worth it to avoid being called a cheapskate fraud for the rest of his career?" The court of public opinion doesn't care about the fine print. Kuchar looks horrible for this and continues to look worse and worse as this goes on; he should have just shut it down, especially when the $50k was requested.

[MooJersey]

PR nightmare that Kuchar won’t recover from any time soon. Gotta blame his agents a bit on this one as well. Anyone with any sense of public opinion should have advised him better.

 

Situation is poorly handled and Kuch should be firing someone on his team. I could be wrong, but I doubt that Matt Kuchar is the guy who actually writes the check.

[Jackhammer993]

Discussing this topic with people I work with many of whom are casual golfers they feel like this adds to the feeling that golfers for the most part are people with noses up in the air that look down on service industry types and consider them to be lesser than themselves. It is unfortunate with golf trying to make efforts to improve their image that something like this happens. With that being said I hope this does not turn into a situation where Matt is on the course and is getting bombarded by negative comments or shout outs. I know the tournaments try and do their best to minimize things like this so hopefully nothing unruly occurs. Time to move ahead

[produff26]

You dont pay US wages to a Mexican worker. Just like you wouldn't pay Mexican wages to a US worker. This whole thing is between Kuchar and the caddy.

[bulls9999]

I'm sorry, but I can't buy or defend Kuchar's line on this. So, because the guy agreed to a substandard fee for caddying, it's OK. Much the same kind of thinking that goes into payment of undocumented immigrants....substandard because of their situation. $5000 on $1.296 million = 0.38% !!

 

I'm sorry, but tipping someone 0.38% because you catch them in an awkward situation and they agree to it doesn't make it any more acceptable, legally perhaps, but not ethically. Sorry Kuch, but you're one cheap sob. This week end, I got a haircut and asked for #7.0 shears.....after the older gal went over the top of my head, I looked at the mirror and said, "you sure those are #7's?, it looks awful short", and she said "well, let me get my glasses and check" (that's when I knew it was going to be bad), and she put them on and says "oh, my, they're #2's.....oh my....I'll pay for it, I won't charge you". I told her to finish the job, that I never had the courage to pull the trigger on something that short. Well, I could have gotten off the hook for the haircut, which I said that's OK, and paid the full price + 20% tip (my usual).

[MK7Golf21]

Was a cheapskate move on Kuchars part, he knows he’s wrong now and just trying to defend

[Danny Choo]

The whole controversy can go away with an apology and a check. I agree with the last post about public opinion, it matters. This looks like a clear taking advantage of a local. The fact that his agent offered 15K shows the PR nightmare Steinberg was trying to avoid. Cut a check, that is less taxes he will have to pay. Kuchar's image is already damaged because of this and he is making it worse by prolonging it. The deal he offered the guy is a total disgrace. El Tucan helped him sealed the win, that is what caddies do, provide course knowledge and advice.

 

If Matt Kuchar remain firm on his decision, it will be unforgivable sin in the case of public opinion.

 

[Tone-NY]

While an agreement is an agreement. Caddie expenses are a business deduction? If so why wouldn't he want to defer some of his winnings to the caddie. If a $1,000 is a tip on top of the of the $4,000 is in his mind more than adequate, then that is his opinion.

 

I'm not defending him and in hindsight he probably regrets the way he has handled the situation. This will cost him in the court of pubic opinion, as I'm sure his sponsors have been aware of the negative publicity