Kuchar/El Tucan caddie controversy (NO POLITICS)

[The General]

it's all Steinbergs fault. He is the one that could have fixed everything - but since he is complete utter garbage - his client looks like crap, even though he thinks all should be cool.

 

FYI, it was steinbergs idea to have TW do that super awkward press conference after the cheating scandal - which was an awful decision.

[gripandrip]

Actually I like both answers. First of all a contract is a contract. The world falls apart when that no longer applies. Kuchar fulfilled his agreed to obligations and even gave a bonus.

Having said that I would have given the guy more. That's just me. But I would never presume to tell someone else what to do with his money. Every pro golfer has worked insanely hard and dedicated their live to get their rewards...which are not guaranteed by any means. A gun for hire, 1 week caddie, is paid to show up, keep up, and shut up. Hired unskilled labor. That's it. The caddie doen't know English so he gave minimal help. We don't know the situation at all. For all we know he could have been a complete dick all week. Publicly demanding more after the fact is pretty sketch in my book. One thing is for sure. Neither guy comes out of this looking great. But the caddie looks worse in my eyes.

 

Is it a "contract" if it's not fully executed?

 

 

 

No but it was so why ask a dumb question? Oh my bad I know the answer to that...

 

Really? According to who?

 

One party claims a completely different agreement/lack of agreement.

 

You see any proof provided the contract was executed?

 

You can argue that Kuch stated the terms. But, Tuc's statements indicate he never agreed to them.

 

So, call it what you will, but I don't see any evidence of something that can be called an executed contract.

 

You can argue that Kuch stated the terms. But, Tuc's statements indicate he never agreed to them.

 

So why was he on the bag? If he didn't agree to the terms why are we even having this discussion?

[Superbrit]

There's another point here. By being such a cheapskate Kuchar has done serious damage to the image of golf,and the professional game in particular.

 

Really?? what absolute garbage no he hasnt

[SkiSchoolPro]

I met all of my goals last year and my bonus was way less than El Toucan got as a percentage of my employers profits.

 

I got somewhere in the range of 0.00244% bonus on my companies profit. El Tucan got a bonus that was about 100 times bigger than mine and he only worked for 5 or 6 days when I worked for 40-50 times the amount of time that he did. Should I complain?

 

Also I'm comparing my companies profits to Kuchars winnings (revenue). If we looked at revenue based bonus from my company (like you are looking at for kuch) I'm even worse off then.

 

Quick what is the number for a good labor lawyer?

If the company had only two employees total and you were one of them, I suspect you'd be pretty pissed about it.

 

No I negotiate salary (including bonus structure) before I accept a job. I'm not dumb enough to think I'm owed anything outside of my salary. It's sad to see many people on here are that dumb though.

Lots of jobs don't really allow you to do that and rely on people's generosity ...imagine if your waitress came up to the table and said that she is paid minimum wage and will only bring your food if you tip at least 15%.

 

Caddies are very used to agreeing to work for a minimum, but most clients end up paying more than that (especially when they have a good day/tournament). Legally, Kuchar may not have been obligated to pay more than 3 or 4 K, but if he wants a reputation as a nice and generous guy, then he should have paid more than 5 K.

 

OTOH, El Tucan over played his hand by turning down the additional 15 k offered (much later?) by Kuchar's agent. I suspect that he would have happily accepted this the week following the tournament and Kuchar's rep would still be intact as 20 k total comp would have been a non-story.

[soap1984]

This contract is a contract thing is ridiculous. I am guessing none of you tip at restaurants? The contract wasnt some written agreement that everyone had ILA on.

 

This is not exactly an equal situation. Kuchar totally took advantage of the situation he was in, knowing he could screw the guy then he took total advantage of it when he won. Kuchar is a scum bag.

 

At some point before he gave the caddie the money he must have thought about how he was saving $125,000 by not having his normal caddie there (really probably closer to $70k since he would write off what he pays his caddie, which makes this even more reprehensible).

 

You can't defend it. One also might assume that if you helped a guy win after 4 years of not winning, he might give you something in the realm of what is reasonable based on what he would have paid his normal caddie. That assumption is based on also assuming kuchar is not an entitled, cheap, out of touch d bag. Turns out he is so El tucan got burned.

 

I am 100% rooting against kuchar now his behaviour is not that of someone I would want to cheer for. Kuchar has no concept that what he did is wrong and makes him look bad the guy must be a complete idiot.

[the bishop]

The biggest mistake Kuchar made was winning. He could have had an arrangement that said $2K for Thurs/Fri if I miss the cut. $3K if I make the cut and play the weekend and a finished based bonus. If he had finished 20th and made around $95K and paid him a $2k bonus for a total of $5K we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But when he wins and then says "Hey I paid him what we agreed on and then even a little extra", if that's true he hasn't really done anything wrong but the optics are bad since he won and some think that he should pay the guy more "in the spirit of fairness".

[produff26]

This contract is a contract thing is ridiculous. I am guessing none of you tip at restaurants? The contract wasnt some written agreement that everyone had ILA on.

 

This is not exactly an equal situation. Kuchar totally took advantage of the situation he was in, knowing he could screw the guy then he took total advantage of it when he won. Kuchar is a scum bag.

 

At some point before he gave the caddie the money he must have thought about how he was saving $125,000 by not having his normal caddie there (really probably closer to $70k since he would write off what he pays his caddie, which makes this even more reprehensible).

 

You can't defend it. One also might assume that if you helped a guy win after 4 years of not winning, he might give you something in the realm of what is reasonable based on what he would have paid his normal caddie. That assumption is based on also assuming kuchar is not an entitled, cheap, out of touch d bag. Turns out he is so El tucan got burned.

 

I am 100% rooting against kuchar now his behaviour is not that of someone I would want to cheer for. Kuchar has no concept that what he did is wrong and makes him look bad the guy must be a complete idiot.

 

So I guess you also root against Tiger, Michael Jordan and the myriad of other celebs/Athletes who are notoriously cheap and non-tippers? Anyone call those guys "Out of touch db's"???

[jasonfish11]

This contract is a contract thing is ridiculous. I am guessing none of you tip at restaurants? The contract wasnt some written agreement that everyone had ILA on.

 

This is not exactly an equal situation. Kuchar totally took advantage of the situation he was in, knowing he could screw the guy then he took total advantage of it when he won. Kuchar is a scum bag.

 

At some point before he gave the caddie the money he must have thought about how he was saving $125,000 by not having his normal caddie there (really probably closer to $70k since he would write off what he pays his caddie, which makes this even more reprehensible).

 

You can't defend it. One also might assume that if you helped a guy win after 4 years of not winning, he might give you something in the realm of what is reasonable based on what he would have paid his normal caddie. That assumption is based on also assuming kuchar is not an entitled, cheap, out of touch d bag. Turns out he is so El tucan got burned.

 

I am 100% rooting against kuchar now his behaviour is not that of someone I would want to cheer for. Kuchar has no concept that what he did is wrong and makes him look bad the guy must be a complete idiot.

 

I was a server for almost 10 years.

 

The difference was I understood people leaving me a $20 tip when the bill was $100 with a $20 bottle of wine, and the next table also leaving me $20 on a $500 bill with a $420 bottle of wine. I don't tip on excessive alcohol costs, and I never expected my tables to tip me on it.

 

So no I don't expect Kuchar to go out of his way and tip based on his winnings, he bought a $420 bottle of wine and the caddie did nothing extra than what would have been done if he bought a $20 bottle of wine. They both agreed to the contract, I said I would have tipped more if I were Kuchar, but all the winning sniveling self entitled comments on this thread have made me be fully on team Kuchar now. Keep on stiffing everyone Kuchar, down with this entitlement nonsense.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

This contract is a contract thing is ridiculous. I am guessing none of you tip at restaurants? The contract wasnt some written agreement that everyone had ILA on.

 

This is not exactly an equal situation. Kuchar totally took advantage of the situation he was in, knowing he could screw the guy then he took total advantage of it when he won. Kuchar is a scum bag.

 

At some point before he gave the caddie the money he must have thought about how he was saving $125,000 by not having his normal caddie there (really probably closer to $70k since he would write off what he pays his caddie, which makes this even more reprehensible).

 

You can't defend it. One also might assume that if you helped a guy win after 4 years of not winning, he might give you something in the realm of what is reasonable based on what he would have paid his normal caddie. That assumption is based on also assuming kuchar is not an entitled, cheap, out of touch d bag. Turns out he is so El tucan got burned.

 

I am 100% rooting against kuchar now his behaviour is not that of someone I would want to cheer for. Kuchar has no concept that what he did is wrong and makes him look bad the guy must be a complete idiot.

So what is the right amount and why? Quantify.

 

Also the restaurant tipping model is apples and oranges.

[sigmapete1]

I really wanted to believe that maybe his agent or something told him to only give $5k and give Kutcher the benefit of the doubt. But as soon as he uttered the words, “For a guy who makes $200 a day...” he lost me. There’s nothing positive that could have come after that.

[jmvargas]

to all who defended MK he just admitted his mistake and decided to pay the difference as just announced in the TV coverage of the Genesis Open..

 

good for David Ortiz but still doesn't excuse Matt Kuchar's earlier behavior..

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Again while I support Matt's right to be cheap, his words “For a guy who makes $200 a day...” were offensive.

[nikegal]

http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/26005383/matt-kuchar-apologize-caddie-pay-full-50000

 

Im glad that he did the right thing cuz after my Tour Bud spoke of him, and he’s in his late 40’s, he said that he’s one of the good guys on Tour and he said that he would bet he’s make it right.

 

All’s well that ends well?

 

Cheers?

RP

 

**Richard is using my iPad as he misplaced his phone and forgot his PW and can only get into his account from his phone, hahaha :) M

[MK7Golf21]

And to all those defending what Kuchar did all I gave to say is Matt even realizes he was wrong. Where does that leave you??

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/PGATOURComms/status/1096524302738968579

[MtlJeff]

And to all those defending what Kuchar did all I gave to say is Matt even realizes he was wrong. Where does that leave you??

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/PGATOURComms/status/1096524302738968579

 

I think most people, whether they defended Matt Kuchar's standing by his original payment, or whether they called him a cheap #*#*#, I would imagine mostly agree that it's unlikely Kuchar changed his actual position on the matter, and most likely did this for PR either at the request of the tour, his agents or getting boo'd worse after his statement

[Matt J]

http://www.espn.com/...-pay-full-50000

 

Im glad that he did the right thing cuz after my Tour Bud spoke of him, and he's in his late 40's, he said that he's one of the good guys on Tour and he said that he would bet he's make it right.

 

All's well that ends well

 

Cheers

RP

 

Richard, I think you know that I have a lot of respect for you. But, I couldn't agree less. IMO, Kuch was better off keeping his money and taking the hit. At this point, he's lost so much face, that admitting wrong only reinforces how wrong he actually was. Perhaps just a misstep, but I really hope it's a wake up call for Matt. There are bigger underlying issues when you behave this way.

[flip flappy]

http://www.espn.com/...-pay-full-50000

 

Im glad that he did the right thing cuz after my Tour Bud spoke of him, and he's in his late 40's, he said that he's one of the good guys on Tour and he said that he would bet he's make it right.

 

All's well that ends well��

 

Cheers��

RP

 

Richard, I think you know that I have a lot of respect for you. But, I couldn't agree less. IMO, Kuch was better off keeping his money and taking the hit. At this point, he's lost so much face, that admitting wrong only reinforces how wrong he actually was. Perhaps just a misstep, but I really hope it's a wake up call for Matt. There are bigger underlying issues when you behave this way.

So even though Kuchar screwed up, he shouldn't own up to it? I personally believe when one does something wrong they should swallow their pride and own up to it and move forward. Denial really doesn't work when trying to put a wrong in the past.

[SwooshLT]

http://www.espn.com/...-pay-full-50000

 

Im glad that he did the right thing cuz after my Tour Bud spoke of him, and he's in his late 40's, he said that he's one of the good guys on Tour and he said that he would bet he's make it right.

 

All's well that ends well��

 

Cheers��

RP

 

Richard, I think you know that I have a lot of respect for you. But, I couldn't agree less. IMO, Kuch was better off keeping his money and taking the hit. At this point, he's lost so much face, that admitting wrong only reinforces how wrong he actually was. Perhaps just a misstep, but I really hope it's a wake up call for Matt. There are bigger underlying issues when you behave this way.

 

I see it like this.....I beat Matt down for stiffing the caddy Ortiz....I'm now willing to forgive AND forget because he has made it somewhat palatable with the 50k even if it took a browbeating to get the money.....if it happens again, then no mercy!

[Komarms]

http://www.espn.com/...-pay-full-50000

 

Im glad that he did the right thing cuz after my Tour Bud spoke of him, and he's in his late 40's, he said that he's one of the good guys on Tour and he said that he would bet he's make it right.

 

All's well that ends well😊
 

Cheers🍻

RP

 

Richard, I think you know that I have a lot of respect for you. But, I couldn't agree less. IMO, Kuch was better off keeping his money and taking the hit. At this point, he's lost so much face, that admitting wrong only reinforces how wrong he actually was. Perhaps just a misstep, but I really hope it's a wake up call for Matt. There are bigger underlying issues when you behave this way.

 

I agree as well. I believe it’s too late now. He had several opportunities to save face but failed to do so. Now it’s an attempted damage control situation that unfortunately will be overlooked by a lot of golf fans.

[jmvargas]

There's another point here. By being such a cheapskate Kuchar has done serious damage to the image of golf,and the professional game in particular.

 

Really?? what absolute garbage no he hasnt

 

the only damage he has done is to himself..

[mukster]

When you could have done something right initially and saved yourself significant ridicule and loss of face.

 

Kuchar looks even worse in my books now.

 

In a previous forum some years ago, one could quite quickly work out who you would be happy to tee it up with by reading people’s posts. As it was a smaller forum, you usually got to play with a lot of them and those opinions were usually correct.

 

103° fever, time for drugs and bed and dream of a sunny golf course somewhere.

[lowheel]

http://www.espn.com/...-pay-full-50000

 

Im glad that he did the right thing cuz after my Tour Bud spoke of him, and he's in his late 40's, he said that he's one of the good guys on Tour and he said that he would bet he's make it right.

 

All's well that ends well��

 

Cheers��

RP

 

Richard, I think you know that I have a lot of respect for you. But, I couldn't agree less. IMO, Kuch was better off keeping his money and taking the hit. At this point, he's lost so much face, that admitting wrong only reinforces how wrong he actually was. Perhaps just a misstep, but I really hope it's a wake up call for Matt. There are bigger underlying issues when you behave this way.

 

My god man is this a serious post? its beyond parody.

[produff26]

Again while I support Matt's right to be cheap, his words “For a guy who makes $200 a day...” were offensive.

 

I agree. Dont think for a second that the PGA didnt put out all the PR stops on this.

 

Bottom line is the situation is resolved and El Tucan is now a full time dry cleaner/part-time caddy! LOL

[randywildman]

It turned into a publicity nightmare for team Kuchar, so he paid up.

 

Karma is not done with either of these men...

[Pat du Golf]

I think Mark Steinberg added fuel to this mess. As an agent, he should have predicted the negative impact of this scandal.

A good PR should have been be his first priority but he allegedly told the sub caddy “ I am out of the country. What Matt has offered is fair.” That’s not a winning move at all.

Credit to Mr. Gillis for bringing this topic up

[Long Shot]

Good for him that he made it right. II will give him credit for whatever reason he chose to do it. I have made mistakes in dealing with people both in my profession and personal life, and it was ultimately the fact that I didn’t show respect for that person.. That said the real issue wasn’t purely about

The money it was respect, especially since El Tucson turned down the 15k, I think the respect piece was part of that. I hope both parties move on and have no lasting negative impacts, other than learning from it.

[NoFancyUsername.]

Is Matt such a nice guy that he was so naive? Who knows. In the end the caddie had been paid, and Kuch will have to wear whatever for a time. Tiger has come out smelling like roses. Time does that.

[RhytmEarl]

At first I thought Kuchar, aka Mr Pink, was a bigoted skinflint who used his leverage to screw a caddie out of a deserved pay check. Now that he's relented I think he's a flip-flopping, cowardly, bigoted, skinflint who was told by his manager that he stands to lose much more than $50K in endorsements.

 

Like I said earlier, "What would Arnold Palmer do?".

[dciccoritti]

So when the offer came fir an additiinal 15,000 he should have grabbed it and learned something.

 

Guess what? He got his 50 and it was Kucher that 'learned something'. ;-)

[Jackhammer993]

In life it is important to have a good support group around you. Someone in Matt’s camp whether it be his wife, parents, agent needed to step in at some point and give him some direction on this. He should never have been allowed to make the statements he made without someone close to him advising him first. These kind of stories never fully go away. If he corrected things in Hawaii or shortly after it would not have escalated but unfortunately he didn’t and it did. I hope people leave him alone. Not clapping is fine but hope he doesn’t have to endure to much brow beating while on the course. I will never be a supporter of his going forward but also not looking for him to be publicly exiled.