SIM2 Predictions - Where will this driver stand in TMs history?

[jll62]

9 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

First tm driver without moveable weight since....?

 

The r5 dual would be my guess. But remember that the "forgiving" driver each year almost never has moveable weights. Everyone's gold standard, the 2016 M2, didn't have moveable weights. If moveable weights are a key factor for people, the SIM2 isn't for them. And that's okay.Perhaps we see moveable weights back next year. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

What I'm saying is this release feels like a full on redesign of the entire club to create a platform upon which they can build features going forward. I'm in the software industry and this seems like a refactoring of code to improve the internal architecture so that features can be more easily implemented, or so you can increase scale, etc. Sometimes you have to make the tough call to kick out a feature (e.g., MWT) until a future release because you need to completely reimplement it in the new design. That's what this feels like to me.

Edited January 21, 2021 by jll62

[MysteryV]

3 hours ago, Red4282 said:

No,  but if we are talking comparing sim to sim 2, or 410 to 425... it wont be much if at all. You would HAVE to do it on an iron byron, because in human testing, there is no way to control speed, loft delivered, face angle, AOA, etc. In actuality, the newer models might actually test WORSE. Thats why no OEM does this, even though they easily could. There would be nothing to sell.  Even if there were some differences, they would be extremely small. 

 

You write "there won't be much difference" as though it's fact, however there's no measurements, math, or comparative testing.

 

There's no need for special equipment beyond the standard launch monitor.  You only need a sufficiently large sample size and rudimentary database.

[elwhippy]

It is just another marketing job. Make zilch difference to 95% of players. 

[bogeypro]

15 hours ago, puttingmatt said:

Where it will rank? Are you kidding?

TM rolls through driver cycles every six months ,lols

That really hasn't been true for a couple years now.  They've been on a yearly cycle just like everyone else since the original M series.  

[GarretG]

I think next years will be a substantial jump. I think this one will be meh in history. 

[Red4282]

7 hours ago, MysteryV said:

 

You write "there won't be much difference" as though it's fact, however there's no measurements, math, or comparative testing.

 

There's no need for special equipment beyond the standard launch monitor.  You only need a sufficiently large sample size and rudimentary database.

Then go for it

[Red4282]

6 hours ago, bogeypro said:

That really hasn't been true for a couple years now.  They've been on a yearly cycle just like everyone else since the original M series.  

Pretty sure that was sarcasm

[Skhacker]

I didn’t know they served Kool-Aid in the golf store. 
J/K. Get fitted. Every driver made now is a bomber with the proper setup and ball. 

[BlkNGld]

On 1/21/2021 at 8:49 AM, jll62 said:

 

The r5 dual would be my guess. But remember that the "forgiving" driver each year almost never has moveable weights. Everyone's gold standard, the 2016 M2, didn't have moveable weights. If moveable weights are a key factor for people, the SIM2 isn't for them. And that's okay.Perhaps we see moveable weights back next year. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

What I'm saying is this release feels like a full on redesign of the entire club to create a platform upon which they can build features going forward. I'm in the software industry and this seems like a refactoring of code to improve the internal architecture so that features can be more easily implemented, or so you can increase scale, etc. Sometimes you have to make the tough call to kick out a feature (e.g., MWT) until a future release because you need to completely reimplement it in the new design. That's what this feels like to me.

 

I thought of the same analogy.

 

What really makes me feel that way is that this go round has no moveable weight.   That's obviously been a TM hallmark over the years.   I suspect that there are some tradeoffs that couldn't be overcome in the timeline they needed so they went with this while continuing work on the moveable weight challenges.

 

 

[puttingmatt]

On 1/20/2021 at 10:30 PM, gibbiesmalls said:

Got any original material? 

 

This take has gotten so old and stale .... and wouldn't be funny even if it were true (which it's not).

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Since I picked up the Sim 3 wood in May of 2020, and the Sim2 is out in January 2021,  it doesn't get any more original than that, some product cycle life, 

9 months.

[gibbiesmalls]

20 minutes ago, puttingmatt said:

Yeah, Since I picked up the Sim 3 wood in May of 2020, and the Sim2 is out in January 2021,  it doesn't get any more original than that, some product cycle life, 

9 months.

Ohhh, I get it...

 

You'd like OEMs to stop selling all equipment for a period of time to eliminate the possibility of someone (like yourself) buying a club right before the new 2 year release cycle.

 

Be right back, let me call my car dealership..

 

 

 

 

[BostonWRX]

40 minutes ago, puttingmatt said:

Yeah, Since I picked up the Sim 3 wood in May of 2020, and the Sim2 is out in January 2021,  it doesn't get any more original than that, some product cycle life, 

9 months.

Originally SIM hit stores 2/27/20

SIM 2 hits store 2/17/21

 

[NoFancyUsername.]

TM has to have the best marketing team. They got to pay the big boys their $$$.

They pull out the fairy floss machine and start the spinning....and the amateur golfer stands there with his mouth wide open willing to part the big $$ every 6 months on a driver..but won't have lessons to cure the real ill.

 

 

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, puttingmatt said:

Yeah, Since I picked up the Sim 3 wood in May of 2020, and the Sim2 is out in January 2021,  it doesn't get any more original than that, some product cycle life, 

9 months.

You must be a big deal if the market considers the product cycle to start only when you have made your purchase. 😆

[grm24]

On 1/21/2021 at 11:39 AM, Red4282 said:

First tm driver without moveable weight since....? I guess 2015. Id call that a step back, or at the very least lateral movement.

2015. Really? Multiple TM drivers since 2015 w/o moveable weights. Easy information to find.

 

2020 Sim Max and Sim Max D no moveable weights. Same as M6, M6-D, Original One Driver, M4, M2 & M2 Type D (2016 and 2017 (type D)), 2016 & 2020 M-Gloire Drivers, Aeroburner (2015). Many others before 2015 as well.

[Red4282]

7 hours ago, grm24 said:

2015. Really? Multiple TM drivers since 2015 w/o moveable weights. Easy information to find.

 

2020 Sim Max and Sim Max D no moveable weights. Same as M6, M6-D, Original One Driver, M4, M2 & M2 Type D (2016 and 2017 (type D)), 2016 & 2020 M-Gloire Drivers, Aeroburner (2015). Many others before 2015 as well.

Im pretty sure you knew what i meant but ill clarify. First year, taylormade has offered a lineup of drivers without at least one that had moveable weights. You had SIM, M5, M3, M1. Have to go back to 2015 with aeroburner to when it wasnt an option.

[joostin]

On 1/21/2021 at 11:49 AM, jll62 said:

 

The r5 dual would be my guess. But remember that the "forgiving" driver each year almost never has moveable weights. Everyone's gold standard, the 2016 M2, didn't have moveable weights. If moveable weights are a key factor for people, the SIM2 isn't for them. And that's okay.Perhaps we see moveable weights back next year. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

What I'm saying is this release feels like a full on redesign of the entire club to create a platform upon which they can build features going forward. I'm in the software industry and this seems like a refactoring of code to improve the internal architecture so that features can be more easily implemented, or so you can increase scale, etc. Sometimes you have to make the tough call to kick out a feature (e.g., MWT) until a future release because you need to completely reimplement it in the new design. That's what this feels like to me.

Yeah, from an engineering point of view I like what they're doing - rid of bodyweight for more efficient localized weights (low rear).  Nice structure to build upon, and they have movable weights to reintroduce as the next logical step.  Can't show all their cards at once!  At the same time, I might agree with the skeptic posts:  All drivers have been so good that for actual performance in the picky hands of picky people, we might not notice real life differences.

Since everyone's been capped on COR and MOI, we know the best anyone can do is improve speed retention on off-center hits, max out MOI, and keep spin in check.  For max MOI, low spin, and speed retention, the goal is a lightweight, aerodynamic, rigid body with a low rear CG, and a face that flexes pretty evenly all over.  Carbon fiber and aluminum are lower in density than titanium, so if they keep those materials pretty thin, the more they use on the body the more it allows for efficient localized weight over a heavier titanium build.  Everyone's already doing low rear weight, this just makes it easier to manipulate CG.  It can also help locate draw and fade bias weights farther back to keep MOI up.  They just need to keep the CF and aluminum weight down to benefit over thin titanium.

As far as speed retention on off-center hits, they check the boxes:  removing welds, going with a cup face, variable face thicknesses, flexible sole slot.  If/when Callaway joins in on the carbon fiber sole, they might have even more potential with their AI face and jailbreak that gives more body rigidity behind the flexible face.

Performance, feel, look, how it holds up to damage, ability to close the face, who knows, and everyone's got their own needs and abilities.  But great design from TM on SIM2 👍👍.  The materials game is strong.  The future will be lighter and thinner like integrating graphene to the body.  Once everyone maxes out MOI at 5900 g-cm^2, maybe they'll have more face and slot advancements and start going smaller like 400 cc while maintaining max MOI.  Everyone's got to get there first.

[DaRiz]

2 hours ago, joostin said:

Yeah, from an engineering point of view I like what they're doing - rid of bodyweight for more efficient localized weights (low rear).  Nice structure to build upon, and they have movable weights to reintroduce as the next logical step.  Can't show all their cards at once!  At the same time, I might agree with the skeptic posts:  All drivers have been so good that for actual performance in the picky hands of picky people, we might not notice real life differences.

Since everyone's been capped on COR and MOI, we know the best anyone can do is improve speed retention on off-center hits, max out MOI, and keep spin in check.  For max MOI, low spin, and speed retention, the goal is a lightweight, aerodynamic, rigid body with a low rear CG, and a face that flexes pretty evenly all over.  Carbon fiber and aluminum are lower in density than titanium, so if they keep those materials pretty thin, the more they use on the body the more it allows for efficient localized weight over a heavier titanium build.  Everyone's already doing low rear weight, this just makes it easier to manipulate CG.  It can also help locate draw and fade bias weights farther back to keep MOI up.  They just need to keep the CF and aluminum weight down to benefit over thin titanium.

As far as speed retention on off-center hits, they check the boxes:  removing welds, going with a cup face, variable face thicknesses, flexible sole slot.  If/when Callaway joins in on the carbon fiber sole, they might have even more potential with their AI face and jailbreak that gives more body rigidity behind the flexible face.

Performance, feel, look, how it holds up to damage, ability to close the face, who knows, and everyone's got their own needs and abilities.  But great design from TM on SIM2 👍👍.  The materials game is strong.  The future will be lighter and thinner like integrating graphene to the body.  Once everyone maxes out MOI at 5900 g-cm^2, maybe they'll have more face and slot advancements and start going smaller like 400 cc while maintaining max MOI.  Everyone's got to get there first.

That’s what I’m saying. General consensus seems to be “this is an off year” because there is no weight and not a ton of hype surrounding it. But when you look at what their engineering strategy is, this is a vast departure from their super forward CG that started back around SLDR. TM is quietly changing their entire playbook here by moving CG back and essentially trying to create what the Ping LST models have perfected, high MOI/low spin. For me, TM drivers always went the furthest but I could never control them so I have been solidly in the Ping camp for years now just because they are so stable. But if TM can out-Ping Ping and give me 5000+ MOI while keeping spin down, I think they could start to shift the trend towards stability and the SIM2 has the potential to be looked back upon as that divergence point

 

..or maybe we will all forget it ever existed like the RBZ stage 2

[evoviiiyou]

I think TM needs to market the quality of the newest SIM2 head components and it’s no weld construction. No one is ever going to see the milling and see these cool pieces being on the insides of the parts. Also, it’s the first time ever the driver is more carbon than titanium. Pretty cool stuff but tough to follow SIM OG for sure. My golf spy did a great job with their review. 
 

https://Not allowed because of spam.com/taylormade-sim-2-driver/

Edited January 24, 2021 by evoviiiyou
Spelling

[nsxguy]

"Most recent" ? (until the next version of course )

[setter02]

53 minutes ago, evoviiiyou said:

I think TM needs to market the quality of the newest SIM2 head components and it’s no weld construction. No one is ever going to see the milling and see these cool pieces being on the insides of the parts. Also, it’s the first time ever the driver is more carbon than titanium. Pretty cool stuff but tough to follow SIM OG for sure. My golf spy did a great job with their review. 
 

https://Not allowed because of spam.com/taylormade-sim-2-driver/

 

I'm fairly certain some of these will basically explode, so pics would be sure to follow.  So we would see these pieces, just likely later and followed by warranty returns.

[brutusflash]

On 1/21/2021 at 10:47 AM, cardoustie said:

i wish the old toe weights would come back like in the r5 dual etc

Adding  a tow weight would solve the draw/fade bias issue.  They could probably engineer a weight port that doubles as the speed injection site.

Flash

[Jarlaxle]

On 1/24/2021 at 3:18 PM, gwelfgulfer said:

 

I'm fairly certain some of these will basically explode, so pics would be sure to follow.  So we would see these pieces, just likely later and followed by warranty returns.

 

On what do you base such certainty?

[setter02]

58 minutes ago, Jarlaxle said:

 

On what do you base such certainty?

Because there is is always failures, regardless.  More so with a first gen full composite head.  It's basically a 100% certainty that "some" will blow up.  How many, who knows.  But it is a 100% that SOME will fail.  Really didn't think that this would be something that could be questioned...

 

I had a Ping G LST blow a toe out within 5 swings that was NIW, straight out of a fit cart when I worked at GT years ago .  Ping said they had never seen that before.  Chit happens...

Edited January 27, 2021 by setter02

[Jarlaxle]

12 hours ago, gwelfgulfer said:

Because there is is always failures, regardless.  More so with a first gen full composite head.  It's basically a 100% certainty that "some" will blow up.  How many, who knows.  But it is a 100% that SOME will fail.  Really didn't think that this would be something that could be questioned...

 

I had a Ping G LST blow a toe out within 5 swings that was NIW, straight out of a fit cart when I worked at GT years ago .  Ping said they had never seen that before.  Chit happens...

I suppose we will see.  No production method is perfect and there will always be the occasional fluke.  My reading of your post suggested something a bit more systemic. Apologies. 

[setter02]

8 minutes ago, Jarlaxle said:

I suppose we will see.  No production method is perfect and there will always be the occasional fluke.  My reading of your post suggested something a bit more systemic. Apologies. 

 

No, no.  Just looking into my plexiglass ball.

[Valtiel]

On 1/24/2021 at 11:24 AM, evoviiiyou said:

I think TM needs to market the quality of the newest SIM2 head components and it’s no weld construction. No one is ever going to see the milling and see these cool pieces being on the insides of the parts. Also, it’s the first time ever the driver is more carbon than titanium. Pretty cool stuff but tough to follow SIM OG for sure. My golf spy did a great job with their review. 
 

https://Not allowed because of spam.com/taylormade-sim-2-driver/

Agreed, perceived quality is a big deal.