Mini drivers the next hot trend???

[Fairway14]

22 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Adding to all this....

 

I'm not interested in mini drivers as a 2 wood, or 3 wood with better tee game potential.  I only see these as a possible driver, replacing a 460cc club in the bag.

 

 

Yes, and 300CC is a driver. But, OEM's want to continue pushing jumbo 460CC heads so they name and promote the 270CC to 300CC heads as something other than a primary driver club.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Fairway14

[J13]

I can't count the number of players that use 3wood off the tee because they can control it whereas driver is off the planet.  Shorter length and more spin help many players control the ball so mini drivers make sense in that regard.  I've tried 43.5" driver builds with 460cc heads and it's just odd looking and never worked out long term.  If you start getting up above 44" then it works well. 

[Fairway14]

13 minutes ago, J13 said:

I can't count the number of players that use 3wood off the tee because they can control it whereas driver is off the planet.  Shorter length and more spin help many players control the ball so mini drivers make sense in that regard.  I've tried 43.5" driver builds with 460cc heads and it's just odd looking and never worked out long term.  If you start getting up above 44" then it works well. 

 

My observation is that most every player above about a 5 handicap index mishits driver all day long. But the 460CC driver heads allow a ball hit out on the toe , towards the heel, a bit low or high on the face etc...to still get decent looking playable shot results.

When 260CC drivers were the industry standard players seem to strike square-solid shots more often tan they do a 460CC head, but the dispersion was greater from mishit shots.

Players who swing lots of 3-woods from tee boxes I think do so because the 3-wood's relatively small head and 43" shaft make it easier to square at impact than a 460CC head, and it's fun to hit consistently square-solid shots. Also, when a 3-wood is mishit the 15* loft keeps the dispersion relatively small (compared to the old 260CC size driver heads with 9* of loft).

Edited July 10, 2021 by Fairway14

[SlicerMcGee]

I consider myself a relatively strong 3 wood player. I’ve used the TM OO and definitely is much more controllable than a driver but was only about 10 yards on average longer than my 15 degree 3 wood. 
 

I also don’t know about the argument of making more consistent contact with a mini driver. Smaller face led to more toe hooks and high face strikes than a driver and 3 wood. Toe hooks I believe to be from easier closing of face. 

[RobotDoctor]

2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

My observation is that most every player above about a 5 handicap index mishits driver all day long. But the 460CC driver heads allow a ball hit out on the toe , towards the heel, a bit low or high on the face etc...to still get decent looking playable shot results.

When 260CC drivers were the industry standard players seem to strike square-solid shots more often tan they do a 460CC head, but the dispersion was greater from mishit shots.

Players who swing lots of 3-woods from tee boxes I think do so because the 3-wood's relatively small head and 43" shaft make it easier to square at impact than a 460CC head, and it's fun to hit consistently square-solid shots. Also, when a 3-wood is mishit the 15* loft keeps the dispersion relatively small (compared to the old 260CC size driver heads with 9* of loft).

I wonder how many people who are negative about the 300 Mini, or any smaller headed driver, has actually put one in play for a significant amount of time.  The mentality of bomb and gouge has taken over this game and many believe the DeChambeau strategy IS the only way of playing the game.  I am in the other camp where better swing and contact and the ability to work the ball is the way to play the game.  I’m not in the DeChambeau camp but am more in the camp of Hogan/Nicklaus/Azinger/Pavin.  The ability for shotmaking is the correct path in lower scoring.  I’ve been an advocate for smaller cc drivers for some time as I believe 460cc is excessive.  I’d rather hone my swing so that it is fundamentally right and I make contact precisely every time.  Like swinging a hammer on nail.  Those who are against the smaller headed can keep playing the 460cc behemoths.  I’m intrigued with the smaller headed driver and the ability to work the ball to fit the shot.  
 

To each their own is what I say.  

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by RobotDoctor
Correcting misspelling

[uglande]

11 hours ago, PEI_Golfer said:

 

What you gave for examples hardly counts as "around for 20 years" (one was a fairway wood and one never even existed)...  The 983K isn't even 20 years old...  The 975D was still in play and only 260 cc's in '01.  

 

This is like a 7 year old phenomenon and even then, no one was "craving" the return of a 2 wood other than on here.

 

Lastly, people buy things all the time that don't serve a purpose just to fill egos or vanity needs...  

Actually, these types of clubs go back much farther than 20 years. (See the posts from @ChipNRun on another thread https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1822789-history-of-mini-drivers/)

 

 

I was mistaken about RBZ Mini; it was the AeroBurner Mini I was thinking of (which did indeed exist).

 

Some of these were not marketed as mini-drivers (Rapture) but were in the same vein -- like the Callaway Xhot -- extra large headed fairway wood with lower loft, functioning as a 2 wood or mini driver. A more recent example is the Cobra Big Tour, but that leans more toward fairway wood than mini driver.

 

Anyway, I don't know why people are so worked about about these clubs. It's not like some technology (twist face, full-face grooves) where we could have a legitimate debate about whether they work or not. This is just a different style of club that some people like and others don't. There's nothing to discuss here. Buy one, don't buy one, whatever. TaylorMade's not putting a gun to your head.

 

 

[Fairway14]

5 minutes ago, RobotDoctor said:

I wonder how many people who are negative about the 300 Minh, or any smaller headed driver, has actually put one in play for a significant amount of time.  The mentality of bomb and gouge has taken over this game and many believe the DeChambeau strategy IS the only way of playing the game.  I am in the other cam where better swing and contact and the ability to work the ball is the way tomplT the game.  I’m not in the DeChambeau cam but am more in the camp of Hogan/Nicklaus/Azinger/Pavin.  The ability for shotmaking is the correct path in lower scoring.  I’ve been an advocate for smaller cc drivers for some time as I believe 460cc is excessive.  I’d rather hone my swing so that it is fundamentally right and I make contact precisely every time.  Like swinging a hammer on nail.  Those who are against the smaller headed can keep playing the 460cc behemoths.  I’m intrigued with the smaller headed driver and the ability to work the ball to fit the shot.  
 

To each their own is what I say.  

 

Swinging for maximum distance is what most amateurs do, and most amateurs shoot high scores. Your comments about swing technique , making consistently good square contact with the ball, using good sense strategy to play shots around the course etc... are essentially what a Tour pro or competent teaching instructor have always advocated that amateurs should try to do.

Again, most amateurs over swing using too much wasted effort and don't want to be told that's  a bad thing. DeChambeau proclaiming that he wants to hit it as far as possible, just like John Daly did 30 years ago with "grip it and rip it" , is a message that amateurs like to hear, so it sells well.

Learning and practicing fundamentally sound technique is not a message most amateurs want to hear or buy.

[ChipNRun]

On 7/9/2021 at 9:13 AM, NRJyzr said:

...one aspect of the modern mini-drivers that I feel is more important, that of the golfer looking for something other than the gigantor clubheads on the market, but with some modern tech applied.

 

In early 2000s, one of the golf magazines had a feature story on a young LPGA player. She stood 5-foot-2, and was playing one of the early large-head drivers, with a longer shaft to try to maximize distance.

 

When she asked about her driver practice routine, she said it was short: About 6 balls a day... any more than that, and the big head started messing up her visual address picture for clubs with smaller heads. Gigantor problems have been with us for a long time, I guess.

 

(I regret being unable to retrieve the article. It was a crisp one-pager, with good pictures.) 

[joostin]

On 7/1/2021 at 7:55 PM, joostin said:

If R510TP, 983K, Launcher, and others were great drivers back then and still pretty good today, I gotta believe that new designs at 400cc with today's technology would be amazing.  Forget mini driver, let's see 400cc "midsize"!

Responding to my own comment, but here's a thought:  As companies push CG lower and farther back, the 2 offerings of Max MOI and Low Spin heads get more blended together into high MOI + LS.  Make that one 460cc "Max/LS" offering, then include a 400cc "Midsize" offering.  I don't know how much demand companies can generate, but it can be marketed as more workable than 460cc but more forgiving than "mini".  Marketing people can make it work, and a few of us would be interested!

[Fairway14]

11 minutes ago, joostin said:

Responding to my own comment, but here's a thought:  As companies push CG lower and farther back, the 2 offerings of Max MOI and Low Spin heads get more blended together into high MOI + LS.  Make that one 460cc "Max/LS" offering, then include a 400cc "Midsize" offering.  I don't know how much demand companies can generate, but it can be marketed as more workable than 460cc but more forgiving than "mini".  Marketing people can make it work, and a few of us would be interested!

 

Over the years I have talked to a few Ping employees about your suggestion. Like most companies Ping employs club designers who use CAD systems which reveal the larger the head, the more forgiving for mishit shots. Talk to a club designer about which design looks best at address or is less bulky to swing or is easiest to swing-square-at-impact or is most workable and they will not care about those factors. "Forgiveness for mishit shots" is the focus of head designs, and that's what matters to them.

Tour players can square up 460CC heads consistently well, yet on occasion they mishit a driver shot and like that the 460 head keeps their ball from moving off line. Amateurs struggle to consistently square up-strike the ball solid with 460CC heads, and I have no doubt most amateurs would find 300C to 400CC heads easier to hit more solid shots with than 460CC.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Fairway14

[uglande]

17 minutes ago, ChipNRun said:

 

In early 2000s, one of the golf magazines had a feature story on a young LPGA player. She stood 5-foot-2, and was playing one of the early large-head drivers, with a longer shaft to try to maximize distance.

 

When she asked about her driver practice routine, she said it was short: About 6 balls a day... any more than that, and the big head started messing up her visual address picture for clubs with smaller heads. Gigantor problems have been with us for a long time, I guess.

 

(I regret being unable to retrieve the article. It was a crisp one-pager, with good pictures.) 

This speaks to me. I just ordered a 300 mini (previously had an Original One) to potentially replace my 425 LST 3 wood. I hit my LST like a rocket on the driving range. But when I'm standing on the tee, and the pressure is on, and I've been looking at my 460 driver all day and now I've got to hit a 165cc head at the end of a 43 inch shaft ... it's not confidence-inspiring. Hitting 3 wood off the tee should feel like an easy, safe option. But I'm not getting that. The big head of the mini driver offers that extra bit of reassurance/forgiveness that I want on those shots.

[me05501]

Taylor Made did just that back in the day, with the 300/320/360 model drivers. It seemed like most people opted for the larger model, though they did sell some of the the others by marketing them as the “players” version versus the max forgiveness of the bigger head. 
 

I’m guessing it was a hassle from a supply chain and retailer POV. This was before adjustable hosels, so you had to stock a bunch of clubs to have all the options available. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by me05501

[Fairway14]

26 minutes ago, uglande said:

. I hit my LST like a rocket on the driving range. But when I'm standing on the tee, and the pressure is on, and I've been looking at my 460 driver all day and now I've got to hit a 165cc head at the end of a 43 inch shaft ... it's not confidence-inspiring. Hitting 3 wood off the tee should feel like an easy, safe option. But I'm not getting that. The big head of the mini driver offers that extra bit of reassurance/forgiveness that I want on those shots.

 

You make an excellent point about the awkwardness of transitioning from driver to 3-wood. One strategy which helps that cause is to to play 3-wood from more tee boxes. In other words, if a guy swings driver from all 14 tee boxes every round , week after week, and then suddenly decided to tee up a 3-wood for a change, that 3-woodwill appear small/awkward , and not inspiring.  However if the player becomes accustomed to swinging 3-wood off at least one or two tee boxes a round he will gain comfort and confidence with that club.

[ShowMe]

Mini-driver?  Au contraire.  This is a normal sized driver.  The 460cc drivers are Maxi-Drivers.

[RobotDoctor]

I just saw the TM 300 Mini at my local course.  They look really nice and I do prefer the 11.5°.  I have scheduled a club fitting on Thursday to check the driver out and I intend to try several shaft options to maximize the performance of it.  I will also compare it to the performance of my TM M3 440cc 9.9° driver.  As far as looks go I could game the TM 300 mini as the size looks really good to me.

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, joostin said:

Responding to my own comment, but here's a thought:  As companies push CG lower and farther back, the 2 offerings of Max MOI and Low Spin heads get more blended together into high MOI + LS.  Make that one 460cc "Max/LS" offering, then include a 400cc "Midsize" offering.  I don't know how much demand companies can generate, but it can be marketed as more workable than 460cc but more forgiving than "mini".  Marketing people can make it work, and a few of us would be interested!

I think the problem is that the market doesn't seem to want this, at least not with how it was being presented. The smaller headed "tour" model sales seemed to taper off in proportion to them falling out of favor on tour. I think another round of material advancements will need to be made for the hypothetical 400cc "midsize" driver to not be the MOI compromise that it currently is. 

[winegr]

9 hours ago, North Butte said:

Is there something about a normal driver that doesn't respond well to an 80% swing for you? Does that kind of swing need more loft than a driver maybe?

 

I've known a few good players who have a little, less than full swing low cut they play with a driver to take 20-30 yards off. 

Sometimes I can get in the groove of 80% drivers, but sometimes it goes badly when I try Bc it doesn’t feel as natural. I know my 3 wood is not my favorite either. So 3 wood replacement is worth a try. 

[toddyc]

6 hours ago, uglande said:

This speaks to me. I just ordered a 300 mini (previously had an Original One) to potentially replace my 425 LST 3 wood. I hit my LST like a rocket on the driving range. But when I'm standing on the tee, and the pressure is on, and I've been looking at my 460 driver all day and now I've got to hit a 165cc head at the end of a 43 inch shaft ... it's not confidence-inspiring. Hitting 3 wood off the tee should feel like an easy, safe option. But I'm not getting that. The big head of the mini driver offers that extra bit of reassurance/forgiveness that I want on those shots.

This is especially true if you rarely ever use a 3 wood off the fairway. At my skill level approaching greens from 230+ is sketchy at best and I tend to hit 5 wood and accept that I can’t reach. It’s not often im that far out anyway. 
So a traditional 3 wood is pointless. Just as well have a mini for the tee box.
Sounds enjoyable to play with regardless of whether it improves my score any

[RobotDoctor]

7 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Swinging for maximum distance is what most amateurs do, and most amateurs shoot high scores. Your comments about swing technique , making consistently good square contact with the ball, using good sense strategy to play shots around the course etc... are essentially what a Tour pro or competent teaching instructor have always advocated that amateurs should try to do.

Again, most amateurs over swing using too much wasted effort and don't want to be told that's  a bad thing. DeChambeau proclaiming that he wants to hit it as far as possible, just like John Daly did 30 years ago with "grip it and rip it" , is a message that amateurs like to hear, so it sells well.

Learning and practicing fundamentally sound technique is not a message most amateurs want to hear or buy.

Golf more suited for Top Golf instead of playing a course and scoring.  So it seems.  

[Lobby]

A Mini Driver, huh?

Should I just put my original Big Bertha back in the bag?   Or maybe I should splurge and start using the orig Great Big Bertha?

 

[Fairway14]

42 minutes ago, RobotDoctor said:

Golf more suited for Top Golf instead of playing a course and scoring.  So it seems.  

 

I don't know what Top Golf offers but for sure there is a population of golfers who focus on SIM numbers rather than playing golf courses.

For example , several prominent You Tube club reviewers post videos from jacked-up simulators reading "210 yard carry" from their 6-iron shots and "298 carry " from their driver shots. But when these same You Tubers post the rare video taken of them actually playing a golf course  it's lots of sideways 250 yard driver shots. And when they swing 6-iron from 210 the ball comes up 35 yards short of the green. I have nothing against electronic simulator golf as it looks like a fun experience, but  the shots the club review and, or, fitting videos claim are not even close  to the  carry distances these players produce while playing a golf course. It's two separate games.

[Fairway14]

53 minutes ago, Lobby said:

A Mini Driver, huh?

Should I just put my original Big Bertha back in the bag?   Or maybe I should splurge and start using the orig Great Big Bertha?

 

I do believe the epoxied shaft to the head assembly/connection has a more solid sounding (feel)  than shafts attached using  plastic adapters.

[RobotDoctor]

1 hour ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I don't know what Top Golf offers but for sure there is a population of golfers who focus on SIM numbers rather than playing golf courses.

For example , several prominent You Tube club reviewers post videos from jacked-up simulators reading "210 yard carry" from their 6-iron shots and "298 carry " from their driver shots. But when these same You Tubers post the rare video taken of them actually playing a golf course  it's lots of sideways 250 yard driver shots. And when they swing 6-iron from 210 the ball comes up 35 yards short of the green. I have nothing against electronic simulator golf as it looks like a fun experience, but  the shots the club review and, or, fitting videos claim are not even close  to the  carry distances these players produce while playing a golf course. It's two separate games.

Golf is not played on the range, on simulators or at Top Golf.  Golf is played on the course.  I have a buddy who loves the range and rarely plays.   He can't score and often gets very mad when playing.  I love beating him on the course each and every time.  

[Fairway14]

2 minutes ago, RobotDoctor said:

Golf is not played on the range, on simulators or at Top Golf.  Golf is played on the course.  I have a buddy who loves the range and rarely plays.   He can't score and often gets very mad when playing.  I love beating him on the course each and every time.  

 

Butch Harmon's father, the legendary teacher Claude Harmon, was adamant that his students play shots at the driving range. Each swing should have a target and include visualizing the trajectory and shape of the shot. In other words, when using the range simulate the shots you will be playing on the golf course .Mindlessly making swings without a focus of target is not helpful to scoring.

Ricky Fowler admitted last week that he had gotten into the habit of "playing swing" rather than playing the golf course, and he was trying to go back to playing shots rather than thinking about his swing technique.

[Bad9]

Lots of mentions of the TM mini drivers in this thread. Any love for the Big Bertha Mini 1.5?

[LuxUnit]

All I know is im seeing a lot of buzz

[joostin]

16 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I think the problem is that the market doesn't seem to want this, at least not with how it was being presented. The smaller headed "tour" model sales seemed to taper off in proportion to them falling out of favor on tour. I think another round of material advancements will need to be made for the hypothetical 400cc "midsize" driver to not be the MOI compromise that it currently is. 

True, unfortunately the tours aren't helping the dream!  That brings an interesting point:  The demand from pros may be for a 3W replacement, but the demand from ams is probably moreso for a driver replacement.  It seems pros wouldn't give up 460cc because they can get it to work, but some ams just can't.  Pros would also be more able than ams to make a smaller driver work off the deck.  For this reason maybe the mini driver makes more sense for them than adding a 400cc "midsize" 2nd driver.

 

Maybe if more pros start adopting the 2 driver setup, the midsize idea will have a slim chance. 🤞

 

As far as MOI it would be nice to see mgs' CG and MOI report on the latest clubheads including minis.  But yes, if designs can get the same MOI as today's drivers with smaller heads that would be a great option.

[Highlander 24]

On 7/10/2021 at 10:26 AM, uglande said:

Actually, these types of clubs go back much farther than 20 years. (See the posts from @ChipNRun on another thread https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1822789-history-of-mini-drivers/)

 

 

I was mistaken about RBZ Mini; it was the AeroBurner Mini I was thinking of (which did indeed exist).

 

Some of these were not marketed as mini-drivers (Rapture) but were in the same vein -- like the Callaway Xhot -- extra large headed fairway wood with lower loft, functioning as a 2 wood or mini driver. A more recent example is the Cobra Big Tour, but that leans more toward fairway wood than mini driver.

 

Anyway, I don't know why people are so worked about about these clubs. It's not like some technology (twist face, full-face grooves) where we could have a legitimate debate about whether they work or not. This is just a different style of club that some people like and others don't. There's nothing to discuss here. Buy one, don't buy one, whatever. TaylorMade's not putting a gun to your head.

 

 

Had the Aeroburner mini driver and absolutely loved it. Head cracked on the range and never replaced it but I could really use it right now. Just don't want to pay the $$$ for a new one

[GBBM]

The Japanese market has relatively late model 380-440cc driver heads. Everything from simple forged titanium glued hosel models to high tech/multi material/adjustable/moveable weight models. Many can be found used at fair prices on yahoo Japan.
 

I have an S Yard t.388 9.5 shafted with a Fubuki 3 wood shaft playing at 43.75” at D2 and it’s a great fairway finder for my narrow parkland course with thousands of trees.
 

The difference for me with the mini drivers (I had great luck with the OO)  versus a shortened 460cc driver is being able to tee the ball lower and still hit the middle of the face. With most 460cc drivers the ball needs to be teed higher which seems to subconsciously change the way I swing. 

[cmatthews77]

On 7/10/2021 at 7:29 PM, Bad9 said:

Lots of mentions of the TM mini drivers in this thread. Any love for the Big Bertha Mini 1.5?

 

I had a Bertha Mini 1.5 for a while and loved it.  It was fun on the range but again it just didn't serve much purpose on the golf course so it eventually was pulled for a traditional 3wood setup. 

 

Again, I'm repeating but I don't think mini-driver makes any since UNLESS you are re-thinking driver as a whole. Phil Mickelson committed to playing a driver at 47.75" long in 2021.  His AOA is now +5 at that length and thus the loft is 5 degrees.  He uses that to try to MAX distance ("bombs").  Maybe to carry a hazard at 315+.

 

So the "mini driver" is essentially just a modernized driver from 20 years ago that he remembers how to use.  10.5 loft and smaller head probably about 44" long that he uses for the majority of his tee shots giving him more control and 90% of the distance.

 

So to the OP "trend" ?  I think ONLY if amateurs start to experiment with crazy long drivers and essentially carry 2 drivers because a mini-driver is not a fairway wood replacement.