Do all pros use the bounce when chipping?

[ANimz]

I have seen Xander teach an AM to use the leading edge.  Phil's chipping 101 is all leading edge.  I don't think either method is the end all be all.  There are situations where you will want to use the leading edge, and others where using bounce is better.  Personally, I use bounce any chance I get.  I changed that 2 years ago, and watched my handicap drastically drop.  But there are still times that I will use the leading edge.   

[Valtiel]

16 minutes ago, jomatty said:

I appreciate it.  In the bunkers I’m much more comfortable with low hands.  I was speaking more about chips and pitches.  Not really an issue, as I can get the ball up plenty quick and have good results with how I do it, but was curious about others and how low they keep their hands.  Thanks

Sure thing. It's not for every shot IMO and it generally feels like the best approach with longer swings and mid to higher lofted chips/pitches. Bump and runs and lower chips I play with higher hands, up to the ones where you even use your putting grip and stand quite close to the ball. 

[GolfTurkey]

Spieth has a very low bounce wedge and claims he doesn't use the bounce on any shot, and that this simplifies playing on different grasses for him. Would be nice to have his talent...

[ChaosTheory]

10 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

Spieth has a very low bounce wedge and claims he doesn't use the bounce on any shot, and that this simplifies playing on different grasses for him. Would be nice to have his talent...

That could be a Texas thing, due to the grass.  I loved to use the bounce, until I got to Texas.  I still like it but I have to determine if the grass condition is right for it.  After a while it seems easier to stop trying to use it.  JS probably is in that camp.

[llewol007]

Go play some old hogans and see what no bounce gets you. Even the top pros have at least 5 degrees of bounce on their wedges. Even though you are striking down on the ball, that little delay of the leading edge catching make a big difference in terms of chunking the ball.

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, Krt22 said:

The core element of using the bounce is a very shallow strike (with minimal shaft lean). With the right technique it will skid along the path, not bounce off it. It will bounce if you are too steep

 

 

Joe Kwok and I were chipping off the thin carpet covered concrete in his shop after he added heel relief to my low bounce K-Grind which i've loved. The technique that works off that surface is useful almost everywhere. 

 

2 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Spieth has a very low bounce wedge and claims he doesn't use the bounce on any shot, and that this simplifies playing on different grasses for him. Would be nice to have his talent...

 

Spieth is an interesting one as he tends to be more stabby/handle dragg-y than most, but is surely know for his short game. No universal answers!

[jomatty]

Jordan and Phil definitely seem to do it different than most.  Cam Smith seems to do it a little different as well.  

[Pastit]

6 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Spieth has a very low bounce wedge and claims he doesn't use the bounce on any shot, and that this simplifies playing on different grasses for him. Would be nice to have his talent...

This works for me. I hate catching up the sole on parkland lies when using the bounce. The slightest grass contact ruins the shot. Using shaft lean doesn’t dig in, so I must be a sweeper on chips, just like my irons. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Pastit

[indianagolf2]

From what I know....might not be accurate.  Tiger and Spieth do not.  True or false ?Roger Cleveland said mist pros don't understand it fully 

[Double Mocha Man]

1 hour ago, dave458 said:

...even the ball was airborne before the strike...

 

Now I get it. The ball has to "bounce". 😁

[getitdaily]

12 hours ago, Cwebb said:

It depends on what your definition is for "using the bounce"

This is my primary thought. A few personal thoughts...

 

1. I specifically "use the bounce" in rough. Open the face just a but and hit it like a bunker shot. 

2. I personally believe everyone "uses the bounce" naturally for a square face shot. You don't do anything special, you just square up, swing, and let the bounce do it's thing (keep the leading edge out of the turf)

3. As an element of #2...I think it's better to ask if any (or many) tour pros "use the leading edge". Bounce is there regardless of whether you use super low or super high bounce. 

 

 

[Mob]

I think this dialogue just shows that there are a lot of different ways to do it.  I think it is also important to remind ourselves that most of us amateurs, cannot replicate the precision that these pros have with a golf club in their hands.  Their contact points are so precise.  They practice short game several hours almost every day.  Very few amateurs put this kind of time into their short game.  Teaching a technique for an amateur should be about what is the most "forgiving" method of achieving the shot and reducing the "miss" as much as possible.  I like when a pro is teaching a technique to take the bigger miss out of play.  That means they understand the difference between us and them.  Bounce, when used properly and with the right turf conditions, is about forgiveness and reducing the big miss (chunk or scull).  If you have a great short game, you may not need it very much, but I clearly do.

[ThinkingPlus]

All bounce is not created equally.  Leading edge height matters greatly.  Using a wedge with a high leading edge, regardless of amount of bounce, will be challenging from very firm or hardpan lies.

[Barfolomew]

13 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Spieth has a very low bounce wedge and claims he doesn't use the bounce on any shot, and that this simplifies playing on different grasses for him. Would be nice to have his talent...

 

2nd person to answer my Original post with an actual pro.  I see Spieth take a bunch of divots and Zalatoris

 

Feels like using the bounce is a way to play it safe IF you dont trust yourself to catch it clean.... not that it doesn't have it's place obviously...... in certain spots for good chippers and in more spots for less great chippers....

 

Folks defending playin the bounce like I slapped their mama 🤣 maybe cause I called it a cop out and they dont like to be seen wearing training wheels.... just not needed 100%..... prob why I used to have the bounce sanded way down also cause I like to open it up and be able to under that sucka 🦖

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Barfolomew

[Barfolomew]

18 hours ago, Jim Waldron said:

No.

 

Using the bounce method is actually closer to classic pitching technique than classic chipping.

 

Plenty of pros still use classic chipping, whenever they can as it is way simpler and easier to execute than what I call a "chip-pitch", a hybrid shot that has aspects of both chipping and pitching.

 

In chip-pitching where you use the bounce to "dent" the turf just behind and under the ball to create space for leading edge to get under the bottom half of the ball, you have to create about a 1/4 wrist c0ck, which is then released just prior to impact.

 

It takes a lot of practice and feel awareness to be good at that shot because of the timing involved in achieving that tiny release.

 

Classical chipping gets a bad wrap due to poor concept, ie way too much forward shaft lean. No shaft lean bounce technique is an over-reaction to that wrong mental concept of classical chipping. In other words, all or nothing or binary thinking, very common in golf instruction.

 

Why not just learn to achieve moderate shaft lean, 4-6", which is the ideal amount. But classical chipping will not work in all lies - in the rough and in very tight hard lies, it can be tough to pull off unless your technique is exceptional.

 

I teach and use both classical chipping and chip-pitch bounce technique, but will always use classical chipping as first option whenever I can.

 

So Classic Chipping doesn't use bounce?  So older gen wasn't playing bounce as much? Thanks for great response 🫖🍪

[ChaosTheory]

2 hours ago, Mob said:

I think this dialogue just shows that there are a lot of different ways to do it.  I think it is also important to remind ourselves that most of us amateurs, cannot replicate the precision that these pros have with a golf club in their hands.  Their contact points are so precise.  They practice short game several hours almost every day.  Very few amateurs put this kind of time into their short game.  Teaching a technique for an amateur should be about what is the most "forgiving" method of achieving the shot and reducing the "miss" as much as possible.  I like when a pro is teaching a technique to take the bigger miss out of play.  That means they understand the difference between us and them.  Bounce, when used properly and with the right turf conditions, is about forgiveness and reducing the big miss (chunk or scull).  If you have a great short game, you may not need it very much, but I clearly do.

No, you’re right.  Using the bounce is the most forgiving way, as long as the conditions work for that.  As people like to say about chippers, it’s like cheating.

[Krt22]

19 minutes ago, Barfolomew said:

 

2nd person to answer my Original post with an actual pro.  I see Spieth take a bunch of divots and Zalatoris

 

Feels like using the bounce is a way to play it safe IF you dont trust yourself to catch it clean.... not that it doesn't have it's place obviously...... in certain spots for good chippers and in more spots for less great chippers....

 

Folks defending playin the bounce like I slapped their mama 🤣 maybe cause I called it a cop out and they dont like to be seen wearing training wheels.... just not needed 100%..... prob why I used to have the bounce sanded way down also cause I like to open it up and be able to under that sucka 🦖

 

 

 

 

You just don't fundamentally understand the technique, just because some pros flirt with the leading edge doesn't mean its a cop out or that they are more skilled than those who don't. You can use the same technique and still clip it clean. Not to mention opening it up exposes more bounce even though you "sanded it off"

 

Here is Rory copping out. Forward in his stance, goal is to return the shaft vertical, clips it clean, no divot.

 

 

[Jim Waldron]

4 hours ago, Barfolomew said:

 

So Classic Chipping doesn't use bounce?  So older gen wasn't playing bounce as much? Thanks for great response 🫖🍪

 

 

I am saying you should question what exactly "using the bounce" means - when I was growing up this was not a "meme".  Everyone knew how to do what I now call classical chipping -there was only one basic way to do it.

 

So let's define it then: a very low trajectory shot with no backspin, that rolls out like a putt. That is the literal traditional definition of a chip shot. It is done with slightly arched wrists, to create a fairly shallow angle of attack so that you do not dig the leading edge. Same with forward shaft lean - you need some to get the leading edge under the bottom half of the ball and to hit it solidly.  But you can have too much which causes leading edge to dig. There is ZERO wrist c0ck, and no release of any slight hinge angle in the back of your trail wrist.

 

I recommend the gap wedge as primary chipping tool, although my students will also chip with 6 iron, 8 iron, sand wedge and lob wedge. On a level green, no wind, running 10 on the Stimp, my gap wedge will fly 50% of the way to the hole and then roll out the other 50%. Might get at most two feet high in the air, often less than that.

 

What most modern tour pros do most of the time is NOT classical chipping even though they will use the term "chip" - it is a hybrid shot that has elements of both  pitching and chipping. It flies higher and further than an actual chip shot, has medium spin, so thus less roll out than an actual chip shot. But that hybrid shot ("Chip-pitch") will always have some setting of wrist angles and thus release of those angles. Which is why it is WAY more difficult a shot to learn and to execute, than old school chipping. 

 

I will say this: I get contacted almost daily by golfers with severe chipping yips, and the primary reason they got the yips in the first place is because what they thought they were attempting  was chipping, but was in fact a chip-pitch. And they had neither the body feel awareness required to learn that chip-pitch shot to a high level of skill, or the overall understanding of the required mechanics. 

 

I teach three ways to execute a chip-pitch: a. slight 1/4 vertical wrist c0ck and release. b. a slight backwards hinging of the trail wrist and then releasing that hinge angle just before impact (which is the one that can indeed work on very tight lies or even concrete IF you are really good at it) and c. a blend of a and b.  

 

The lie will dictate which of those will be the best choice. A is the easiest to learn since it is a micro version of your normal  power swing release in terms of how the wrists unlock. B is a bit harder because so many golfers struggle with flipping the wrists sideways in the short game (and long game too), and this version is very much a controlled tiny micro-flip of the trail wrist, what I call "hinge-unhinge-hold" meaning you start to do the micro-flip when the clubhead is very close to the ball/impact, and then right before the strike happens you stop the flip, meaning the club head is coming into the ground on a moderately steep angle and right before impact, the clubhead moves forwards as the hinge angle releases, which is just enough to slide the leading edge under the bottom half of the ball, and not cause it to dig into the turf.

 

Takes a lot of finesse to learn how to do well.

 

C is the hardest one of all but will work from a variety of lies, especially green side rough.

 

But why on earth would anyone attempt to learn any of those three techniques when there is a far, far simpler technique that will work really well about 75% of the time when your ball is close the green? So I never teach chip-pitching until and unless the student can demonstrate proficiency in standard chipping first.

 

What Rory is demonstrating in the recent video posted in this thread is chip-pitching, not chipping.

[Barfolomew]

1 hour ago, Jim Waldron said:

 

 

I am saying you should question what exactly "using the bounce" means - when I was growing up this was not a "meme".  Everyone knew how to do what I now call classical chipping -there was only one basic way to do it.

 

So let's define it then: a very low trajectory shot with no backspin, that rolls out like a putt. That is the literal traditional definition of a chip shot. It is done with slightly arched wrists, to create a fairly shallow angle of attack so that you do not dig the leading edge. Same with forward shaft lean - you need some to get the leading edge under the bottom half of the ball and to hit it solidly.  But you can have too much which causes leading edge to dig. There is ZERO wrist c0ck, and no release of any slight hinge angle in the back of your trail wrist.

 

I recommend the gap wedge as primary chipping tool, although my students will also chip with 6 iron, 8 iron, sand wedge and lob wedge. On a level green, no wind, running 10 on the Stimp, my gap wedge will fly 50% of the way to the hole and then roll out the other 50%. Might get at most two feet high in the air, often less than that.

 

What most modern tour pros do most of the time is NOT classical chipping even though they will use the term "chip" - it is a hybrid shot that has elements of both  pitching and chipping. It flies higher and further than an actual chip shot, has medium spin, so thus less roll out than an actual chip shot. But that hybrid shot ("Chip-pitch") will always have some setting of wrist angles and thus release of those angles. Which is why it is WAY more difficult a shot to learn and to execute, than old school chipping. 

 

I will say this: I get contacted almost daily by golfers with severe chipping yips, and the primary reason they got the yips in the first place is because what they thought they were attempting  was chipping, but was in fact a chip-pitch. And they had neither the body feel awareness required to learn that chip-pitch shot to a high level of skill, or the overall understanding of the required mechanics. 

 

I teach three ways to execute a chip-pitch: a. slight 1/4 vertical wrist c0ck and release. b. a slight backwards hinging of the trail wrist and then releasing that hinge angle just before impact (which is the one that can indeed work on very tight lies or even concrete IF you are really good at it) and c. a blend of a and b.  

 

The lie will dictate which of those will be the best choice. A is the easiest to learn since it is a micro version of your normal  power swing release in terms of how the wrists unlock. B is a bit harder because so many golfers struggle with flipping the wrists sideways in the short game (and long game too), and this version is very much a controlled tiny micro-flip of the trail wrist, what I call "hinge-unhinge-hold" meaning you start to do the micro-flip when the clubhead is very close to the ball/impact, and then right before the strike happens you stop the flip, meaning the club head is coming into the ground on a moderately steep angle and right before impact, the clubhead moves forwards as the hinge angle releases, which is just enough to slide the leading edge under the bottom half of the ball, and not cause it to dig into the turf.

 

Takes a lot of finesse to learn how to do well.

 

C is the hardest one of all but will work from a variety of lies, especially green side rough.

 

But why on earth would anyone attempt to learn any of those three techniques when there is a far, far simpler technique that will work really well about 75% of the time when your ball is close the green? So I never teach chip-pitching until and unless the student can demonstrate proficiency in standard chipping first.

 

What Rory is demonstrating in the recent video posted in this thread is chip-pitching, not chipping.

 

Chip-pitch makes sense...

 

What do you say?... I aim to play the ball off the face like any full shot would but on a chip.... whether I take a divot or not.  I never aim to PLAY the bounce and catch it a hair fat but if I play the bounce it is not purposeful but consequential of that certain lie I had...

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Barfolomew

[Pepperturbo]

On 7/28/2022 at 2:59 PM, Barfolomew said:

I've seen plenty of pros take divots when chipping round the greens.  Does that mean they are not playin the bounce or missed their shot?

 

I've always thought playin the bounce was a cop out... a safe way to chip if you're not on your A game.  Is it?

 

Do the best players/chippers use the bounce when they are on their A game?  A downward strike leading edge first at the ball doesn't seem that hard, off hard pan or wherever when you're dialed in... 🐈

 

 

 

It may be the design of the club.  Impact may come with a divot if turf is soft.  But using bounce is individual choice.

 

I use bounce, but not all the time, depends on the shot plan, and club.  When using bounce, it hits the ground keeping the leading edge from digging. 

 

My F-52 has 12' bounce, while M-58 has 8* of bounce which is designed for opening the face flat.  If using the latter club divots are not likely unless turf is really soft and or the ball sets on a slightly uphill angle which is common design characteristic, where dropping the club head behind the ball is one technique.

 

I use Waldron's A, B flipping of my wrists, and combination, depends on shot plan, been doing that for over 30yrs too.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[EastTNGolfer]

I hate the chip and pitch terminology. Much prefer Seickmann's finesse wedge and distance wedge. Just makes more sense when you read his book. According to Arccos I've gone from a 10 to a 2 in short game handicap since adopting his methods. Phil's hinge and hold did a mess to my short game.

[Double Mocha Man]

22 minutes ago, EastTNGolfer said:

I hate the chip and pitch terminology. Much prefer Seickmann's finesse wedge and distance wedge. Just makes more sense when you read his book. According to Arccos I've gone from a 10 to a 2 in short game handicap since adopting his methods. Phil's hinge and hold did a mess to my short game.

 

James Seickmann is a proponent of using bounce on your chips and pitches.  I have his book, as well.  Complicated but really useful.

[Krt22]

20 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

James Seickmann is a proponent of using bounce on your chips and pitches.  I have his book, as well.  Complicated but really useful.

How about a chip-pitch?

[EastTNGolfer]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

How about a chip-pitch?

He calls it all a finesse wedge. There is something he calls a putt chip when you only need to carry the ball 7 or so yards or less.

[Double Mocha Man]

9 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

How about a chip-pitch?

 

I'll have to find that chapter...

[TheDeanAbides]

23 hours ago, jomatty said:

Jordan and Phil definitely seem to do it different than most.  Cam Smith seems to do it a little different as well.  

Phil still uses the bounce on standard shots. I recall @MonteScheinblum talking about watching Phil practice  this shot a lot at a tournament. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by TheDeanAbides

[jomatty]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Phil still uses the bounce on standard shots. I recall @MonteScheinblum talking about watching Phil practice  this shot a lot at a tournament. 

I’m sure that’s correct on many shots.  I’ve just seen him talk about his technique being similar to Jordan’s and heard him say that he drives the leading edge through.  I don’t doubt what you and Monte are saying though.  It just seems he doesn’t default to it as much as some others.

[TheDeanAbides]

6 minutes ago, jomatty said:

I’m sure that’s correct on many shots.  I’ve just seen him talk about his technique being similar to Jordan’s and heard him say that he drives the leading edge through.  I don’t doubt what you and Monte are saying though.  It just seems he doesn’t default to it as much as some others.

For sure. Using the leading edge is a valid method, but it’s just riskier because there’s no margin for error. 

[TwistedSister]

19 hours ago, Barfolomew said:

 

2nd person to answer my Original post with an actual pro.  I see Spieth take a bunch of divots and Zalatoris

 

Feels like using the bounce is a way to play it safe IF you dont trust yourself to catch it clean.... not that it doesn't have it's place obviously...... in certain spots for good chippers and in more spots for less great chippers....

 

Folks defending playin the bounce like I slapped their mama 🤣 maybe cause I called it a cop out and they dont like to be seen wearing training wheels.... just not needed 100%..... prob why I used to have the bounce sanded way down also cause I like to open it up and be able to under that sucka 🦖

 

 

 

 

Pitching and flop shots yes.  chipping NEVER.  Thats just me though.

[EastTNGolfer]

4 hours ago, dave458 said:

I gotta get you guys some vintage year scoop-dig sole wedges with leading edges like knife blades just so I can watch those knees wobble.  really now, bounce, no bounce, hinge hold, drive flip etc. they're all valid when called for.  bouncing just to bounce is silly.  

 

James Seickmann and quite a many primeir short game instructors would disagree.

 

From Seickmann's book...

 

Quote

Most players know that bounce is a design feature intended to prevent the clubhead from digging into the turf, but they aren’t really sure how to make it work for them. That’s because they incorrectly believe that they’re supposed to keep their hands ahead of the clubhead throughout the downswing. Unfortunately, this unnatural move ruins the way the club interacts with the turf, causing it to dig and creating a domino effect of other technical problems. I’m amazed at the widespread use of this technique, and the alarming number of teachers who preach it.