Are blades really “punishing” or do people swing too hard?

[Billfitz]

As has often been said, timing is everything. Some people have the ability to speed up their swing while keeping the synchronization of their body parts, starting with the hands, ending up at the feet. This allows consistent contact at any speed. Most of us don't have this ability. As we speed up our swing the various body parts get out of sync. Timing is off and the result is a mishit. High MOI clubs tend to smooth out the synchronization of body parts. The worse your ability to synchronize those body parts the more assistance you'll get from high MOI clubs. OTOH the better your ability to repeat your swing at any speed the less benefit you'll get from a high MOI club.

[Pars or Doubles]

Interesting thread.  Was a 7 when I bought my blades 20 years ago.  Took the last 15 years off of golf for the most part and have come back this summer to the game.  I still prefer the blades to my Titleist 990 irons.  Swinging hard doesn't make me miss.  What makes me miss is trying to hit the ball instead of merely letting it get in the way of my swing.  Most of the time, that is what happens when I try to "crush" one, so I probably fit the quote.  I'm not "balanced" when I try to kill the golf ball.  I find that focusing on making a good swing and trusting the shot is what's required.  I probably have to change my swing to hit it farther...

 

So, yeah, people swing too hard.  That doesn't make them miss only with blades, BTW.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Pars or Doubles

[Striker Ace]

Smooth is fast and fast is smooth. I may try blades one of these days, still working on the swing.

[alittleoverpar]

I grew up playing blades, that was pretty much the only choice, and I've played them virtually all of my golfing journey.  I understand the concept behind cavity backs, I just choose to play what I am comfortable with and what looks good to me behind the ball.  I do find that if I swing at what feels like about 80%, I can strike the center of the club most of the time.  As my swing speed goes up, the percentage goes down. 

 

My one swing thought is 80%.

 

[DevilDog]

I still play old Mizuno MP33 blades. Don’t hit any modern club better. Might get more distance with a modern club due to less loft but loft for loft I am within a couple of yards. 
 

I have tried all sorts of cavity backs. They are good clubs but don’t work for me. Don’t like the turf interaction of wider soles for instance. 
 

everyone has their preference and I have mine. Play what works best 

[Conrad1953]

I've often wondered about the 80% swing.......so, if my 100% swing is 100 mph then I should slow

it down to 80 mph so I can hit the sweet spot of a blade? I'd rather just grab an SGI iron and swing

it 100% and take my chances.

[Zena]

16 minutes ago, Conrad1953 said:

I've often wondered about the 80% swing.......so, if my 100% swing is 100 mph then I should slow

it down to 80 mph so I can hit the sweet spot of a blade? I'd rather just grab an SGI iron and swing

it 100% and take my chances.

 

The way I have always interpreted the “80% swing” is that 80% isn’t actually 80%. Just another thing people like to throw it around cuz it’s more than 3/4 and not quite 90%. And if it’s a good swing thought for you, then it’s good. But it’s not really 80%.
 

Take driver for instance. If you held a driver, slowly brought it to end of backswing, and just guided it back to the ball, 1% effort (in terms of force), and it wasn’t a mishit, it would likely go somewhere 50-100yd, maybe up to 150yd. That’s certainly not 1% of your max distance.

 

80% is less about the number and more about controlled, and very much personal. For me, personally, 80% is the “I’m putting pace on it but I’m very much controlled, and can put more on if I need to.” 80% is the speed at which you can hit 100 balls, play a round, and then hit another 100.

 

For me, that’s a Driver swing speed of 110. My range Driver is 112, and on a good day going all out, I can peak at 116.ish. At 110, I am calm, measured, requires a modicum of effort, and know exactly where it’s going and how it’s getting there. At 112 I am starting to push the limits of my coordination, hoping it flies well and at 116, I am all out swinging out of my shoes and ready to yell fore lol. 110 is definitely not 80% of 116, it’s 95%. It might be closer to 80% if you set zero at 150yd, but for me that still only drops it to 89%.

 

So yea, to me 80% is a swing feel, not the absolute truth. Swing strong, but stable. You should very rarely mishit badly at this speed. And this is the swing you bring out to the course.

[Andygolderson]

swing as hard as you can as long as you hit center face .... whut 🤪

 

I've also heard Tiger reapeat this advice back throuht videos, but i don't believe it can stand true until..you ca 100% of the time hit center face.

Contrary advice from peple saying focus on speed first, strike later.

 

Who should you believe ?

[Bye]

On 8/3/2022 at 1:47 AM, Phabs said:

Believe tigers dad said that to him, not a coach

 

Swing speed had nothing to do with contact point.  I can swing slow and hit a ball like crap,  or I can swing out of my shoes and have the same result.  

It was his dad, Tiger tells the story is his “my game” series on YouTube. 

[kiwihacker]

My 'chunky' ZX 5 irons still feel 'punishing' when I thin them. 

[rsballer10]

Would people stop with this crap already? It's not even a relevant debate anymore - back in the 90's when there was MB's for good golfers and eye2's for everyone else the performance was probably remarkably different. Nowadays - there are so many choices in between the two extremes that it's not even a binary debate anymore. I put clubs in my golf bag that perform well for me, and look good too. At the end of the day, I'm responsible for the scores I shoot. I tinker with clubs because it's fun, not because it makes me a better golfer. That's what practicing is for.

[MysteryV]

I take Tiger's sentiment as the same type of old school, pre data, "feel" that underlies things like "swing to first base" and ""speed after the ball".  "Swing as hard as you want as long as..." simply means one should put all emphasis on the qualifier.  

 

Kids want to swing hard, so they made that the carrot.  You can swing hard and I'll let you - BUT - only if you do the things I deem critical.  Seems like a reasonable approach given the equipment of the time (particularly wooden and early gen metal drivers).

 

The general sentiment still seems almost as important as ever, though less so with modern ball and driver tech.

[mogc60]

10 hours ago, rsballer10 said:

Would people stop with this crap already? It's not even a relevant debate anymore - back in the 90's when there was MB's for good golfers and eye2's for everyone else the performance was probably remarkably different. Nowadays - there are so many choices in between the two extremes that it's not even a binary debate anymore. I put clubs in my golf bag that perform well for me, and look good too. At the end of the day, I'm responsible for the scores I shoot. I tinker with clubs because it's fun, not because it makes me a better golfer. That's what practicing is for.

1989 at 17, my first year playing state junior tournaments, my set needed an update. My dad asked me what I wanted. Well dad, Ping Eye2 of course!!  Imagine my excitement as Dad pulls up and I could feel my “cool” factor rising  already…..as he hands me a nice used set of Daiwa Monodyne blades. He says, you learn to hit those you can win whatever you want the rest of your life. Well, I still hit blades. They look best, feel best and perform best for me.  Couldn’t agree with your sentiment more, they all work, find what works best through practice 

Edited August 4, 2022 by mogc60

[gents15]

Here is an excerpt from a 2021 WRX article…I just want to double check that I’m reading this right.

 

“For most golfers I’ve measured, misses with longer irons tend to range more from heel to toe, and with shorter irons those misses tend to range from low to high in the face. Because of the more consistent blade thickness from top to bottom, true blade-style short irons quite often deliver more consistent distance and ball flight than their perimeter-weighted counterparts, both with real golfers and on robotic testing.”

 

 

Is he saying that if your miss is high or low on the face, a blade is actually more forgiving than a CB?

 

Also l, if I am reading this correctly…is this common knowledge/a popular opinion/true?  

 

[RolandofGilead]

I switched to blades this year and after about 20 rounds, I think the forgiveness of CBs is overstated. Bad misses are punished about the same, and not-so-bad misses are definitely a bit shorter with blades but that’s actually an advantage when the misses are also offline - short and offline is better than pin high and offline most of the time. Combined with the significant increase in enjoyment that I get from playing blades over CBs, it’s a decision I wish I had made sooner.

[gents15]

4 minutes ago, RolandofGilead said:

I switched to blades this year and after about 20 rounds, I think the forgiveness of CBs is overstated. Bad misses are punished about the same, and not-so-bad misses are definitely a bit shorter with blades but that’s actually an advantage when the misses are also offline - short and offline is better than pin high and offline most of the time. Combined with the significant increase in enjoyment that I get from playing blades over CBs, it’s a decision I wish I had made sooner.

Nice, what blades are you playing and what was your most recent set(s) prior to switching? 

[BIG STU]

On 8/2/2022 at 8:00 PM, ChipNRun said:

 

"...as hard as you want as long as..." has been around since the 1960s, like when I was in grade school.

 

Golfers have been fed an infinite variety of dubious advice beyond the phrase "...as long as..."

 

The Sheriff has identified where most golfers are. It takes a certain amount of clubhead speed to launch blades, and athletically talented golfers don't seem to realize this.

 

Mostly, I see remarks like this as a bid by golf's self-appointed real amateurs to demean double-digit HDCPers at happy hour.

It does take a certain amount of clubhead speed to launch blades by design. Now you can trick them up some by soft stepping and adding weight down low. I am still playing blades but will admit with my age and injuries I do not launch them as high any more. I have mine sorta tricked up since I build and tune my own stuff but now days I have the 7 & 9 woods on the top end. When I play strictly vintage I still carry and hit the 2&3 irons. I will admit I do not launch them as high or as far any more. But right or wrong it is what I have played most of my golfing life and will continue to do so.

[RolandofGilead]

51 minutes ago, gents15 said:

Nice, what blades are you playing and what was your most recent set(s) prior to switching? 

I played a set of Titleist 735CM irons for over a decade before replacing those with a set of New Level 902 irons. Both pure forged CBs (with some blades in the Titleist set) and pretty tough to beat in that market IMO.

 

I had a quick test run with some Ben Hogan Apex channelback blades, decided I was all in, and am now playing the 1999 Apex model. Most agree the '99s are on the short list of best modern blades. I bought the heads and built them up myself and that journey is definitely part of the enjoyment. I also just like hitting them so much that I practice more now.

 

[BIG STU]

4 hours ago, RolandofGilead said:

I played a set of Titleist 735CM irons for over a decade before replacing those with a set of New Level 902 irons. Both pure forged CBs (with some blades in the Titleist set) and pretty tough to beat in that market IMO.

 

I had a quick test run with some Ben Hogan Apex channelback blades, decided I was all in, and am now playing the 1999 Apex model. Most agree the '99s are on the short list of best modern blades. I bought the heads and built them up myself and that journey is definitely part of the enjoyment. I also just like hitting them so much that I practice more now.

 

Believe it of not I ran into a tourist golfer playing a set of 99 Apex irons Wednesday at my course. I was in the bag drop area shooting the breeze when he walked up. And he was not a old coot like me. He was a younger guy like say late 20s. I spotted them when he was walking up. I told the guys "there is a man who knows a good set of irons". He laughed and we started up a conversation. His Dad had bought them new and gave them to him around 2010 or so and they have been in his bag ever since. Then he looked in my bag and saw the Muirfields and said "Wow now I know now why you know" It did my heart good to see another classic blade player and he being younger to boot

[MachineHack]

1 hour ago, BIG STU said:

Believe it of not I ran into a tourist golfer playing a set of 99 Apex irons Wednesday at my course. I was in the bag drop area shooting the breeze when he walked up. And he was not a old coot like me. He was a younger guy like say late 20s. I spotted them when he was walking up. I told the guys "there is a man who knows a good set of irons". He laughed and we started up a conversation. His Dad had bought them new and gave them to him around 2010 or so and they have been in his bag ever since. Then he looked in my bag and saw the Muirfields and said "Wow now I know now why you know" It did my heart good to see another classic blade player and he being younger to boot

don’t worry big stu, us younger classic blade lovers are around…. I don’t have a club newer than 2004

[MachineHack]

5 hours ago, RolandofGilead said:

I played a set of Titleist 735CM irons for over a decade before replacing those with a set of New Level 902 irons. Both pure forged CBs (with some blades in the Titleist set) and pretty tough to beat in that market IMO.

 

I had a quick test run with some Ben Hogan Apex channelback blades, decided I was all in, and am now playing the 1999 Apex model. Most agree the '99s are on the short list of best modern blades. I bought the heads and built them up myself and that journey is definitely part of the enjoyment. I also just like hitting them so much that I practice more now.

 

beautiful set of irons, another set of apex’s is on my buy list when the wife’s not paying attention 

[Feelingofgreatness]

On 8/2/2022 at 8:24 PM, roundersmitty said:

I can’t hit the centre of the face every time with a 3 foot putt…..

Post of the year! 😂 

I'm in the same camp. 

[rsballer10]

6 hours ago, BIG STU said:

Believe it of not I ran into a tourist golfer playing a set of 99 Apex irons Wednesday at my course. I was in the bag drop area shooting the breeze when he walked up. And he was not a old coot like me. He was a younger guy like say late 20s. I spotted them when he was walking up. I told the guys "there is a man who knows a good set of irons". He laughed and we started up a conversation. His Dad had bought them new and gave them to him around 2010 or so and they have been in his bag ever since. Then he looked in my bag and saw the Muirfields and said "Wow now I know now why you know" It did my heart good to see another classic blade player and he being younger to boot

 

Back in college I played with TM tour preferred T-D iron's I built myself. They aren't necessarily the most desirable older irons, but they were still fun as heck to play. I still miss them. Considering how far tech has come, still managed some good scores with them.

[ShowMe]

Blades are very punishing if you don't hit the center of the club no matter how hard you swing.

[dmeeksDC]

On 8/3/2022 at 10:06 PM, Conrad1953 said:

I've often wondered about the 80% swing.......so, if my 100% swing is 100 mph then I should slow

it down to 80 mph so I can hit the sweet spot of a blade? I'd rather just grab an SGI iron and swing

it 100% and take my chances.

Ha. I get your point but it is not about mph. The percentages refer to exertion and it really is true. More exertion usually means less ball speed. 
 

The way it was explained to me is 80 percent “perceived effort” gets you 100 percent of your speed because your technique is better, better pressure shifts, and the club head accelerates through the ball. The club shaft releases at the right point. 
 

But 100 percent exertion usually means all arms — when people think effort it is usually the upper body they focus on — and an underused lower body, so the club is hitting peak speed too soon, the shaft has released and is actually slowing down at impact (very common) and you get 75 percent of the distance you should get, plus inaccuracy because you probably won’t center it. 
 

The only speed that matters is ball speed and swinging hard with the arms will be the slower ball speed swing. My ball speed jumps considerably if I get my sequencing right and it is not about effort, but flow and using the ground. 

[Conrad1953]

1 hour ago, dmeeksDC said:

Ha. I get your point but it is not about mph. The percentages refer to exertion and it really is true. More exertion usually means less ball speed. 
 

The way it was explained to me is 80 percent “perceived effort” gets you 100 percent of your speed because your technique is better, better pressure shifts, and the club head accelerates through the ball. The club shaft releases at the right point. 
 

But 100 percent exertion usually means all arms — when people think effort it is usually the upper body they focus on — and an underused lower body, so the club is hitting peak speed too soon, the shaft has released and is actually slowing down at impact (very common) and you get 75 percent of the distance you should get, plus inaccuracy because you probably won’t center it. 
 

The only speed that matters is ball speed and swinging hard with the arms will be the slower ball speed swing. My ball speed jumps considerably if I get my sequencing right and it is not about effort, but flow and using the ground. 

 

Interesting discussion here

 

 

[dmeeksDC]

8 minutes ago, Conrad1953 said:

 

Interesting discussion here

 

 

He’s correct. My pro says what I perceive as 80 is really my best shot to get 100 percent of my speed. It is not really 80, just a thought that helps me focus on flow and sequence. You get way more ball speed when you sequence correctly.

 

I don’t agree with the “swing hard” advice as I would say it is “swing fast.” When you tell most people to swing hard it usually creates huge strike patterns. The first thing to go is their sequencing and they become mostly arms and it is not all that fast. But when I rotate hard — as opposed to swing hard — the club whips through much faster. 

[Roejye]

I have found that when I try to manufacture a low, soft shot or a shot where I club up and try to hit a soft one that my timing gets messed up and the result is terrible. I read on another forum about conservative targets with aggressive swings. I think the problem starts with trying to be too aggressive. I find I hit it best when I commit to the shot and swing hard, but not out of my shoes, I guess it would be 95%. 

 

As far as blades vs cb's, just play what you want. Yes cavity backs are more forgiving, but if you put a such a terrible swing on it that you hit it so far out of the toe you miss the grooves with an open clubface and terribly ott, no amount of tech can save you.

[NightTrain]

If you play to like a 10 or less, it's worth finding that set of blades that just feels right (for me it's the Callaway Razr X MBs).  Once you find that set, stick with it and you'll be comfortable hitting so many different types of shots.  

[tatertot]

6 minutes ago, NightTrain said:

If you play to like a 10 or less, it's worth finding that set of blades that just feels right (for me it's the Callaway Razr X MBs).  Once you find that set, stick with it and you'll be comfortable hitting so many different types of shots.  

I play to less than a 4, and I ain't finding no blades. I'm happy with my AP1s. I'll take my misses that go 95% of the distance and fairly straight.