The Member-Member Tournament --an old fart's complaint

[SeaIsland]

I'm nearly 66 (a 5HC) and my partner is 72 (a 12HC). We got into our club's member/member playoff today based on having the second best wildcard score --and we nearly pulled it off. But it was a miracle that we got that far, and that's the point of this post.

 

I hit my drives 230-250. My partner hits his drives 170-190. We were playing against guys who were hitting the ball 280-320. And we were playing them from the same tees. My point is, it was the first time in my golfing life that I genuinely felt like my team was at an obvious, unfair disadvantage. While tournament staff are finally starting to address the problem by offering tee box-based solutions that close the gap for the 70+ year old guys who can still move the ball versus their more elderly peers who no longer can, what about the rest of us?

 

We only offered a 5900 and 6200 yard option for this tournament. Why just two options? And why not a more meaningful length difference? You couldn't even exercise the 5900 yard option unless your age and HC index exceeded a threshold that in practice, only qualified a handful of players. Surely some enlightened club has figured this out? If leveling the playing field for older guys makes sense, then why not younger guys too, especially when old and young are playing each other.

 

When I'm playing guys who are hitting driver/7 iron into Par 5s, I have to scratch my head. Is it sour grapes to complain and/or am I wrong to suggest that the HC system should normalize for significant age discrepancies? If not in the HC system, should club pros who are setting up member events take matters into their own hands?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by SeaIsland

[jvincent]

What format are you playing? Two-man BB or something else? Do you use full handicaps?

 

In theory handicaps are supposed to take care of this since course ratings/slope are predominantly based on course length. 

 

At our club member/member events there's usually a battle between a few teams made up of the youngsters (+ indexes) and some old fart teams.

[StudentGolfer4]

As stated above, handicaps should make up for the difference in skill. How far a golfer hits it shouldn’t play into the decision for an event like this. It should be based on handicap. (If you are given a choice of tees than how far you hit it definitely matters. I’m referring to course setup and rules.). 
 

The two clubs I am most familiar with address this in 2 very different ways.
 

Club A has a rule stating if your combined age and handicap are over 75 you may move up to the white tees at 6k yards. Everyone else plays the member tees at 6600. 

 

Club B allows you to play from 6400 or 6100. If you’re over 65 you may play the set at 5600. Handicaps are determined based on tee position for the event. Some guys move back to get an extra stroke or two. But there are also a couple of older guys around scratch that move up to the forward tees and sacrifice 1-2 strokes. 

[Augster]

Unless it’s a scramble, or scratch, I don’t understand the complaint. 2-man handicapped best ball? Your cap is your cap. Their cap is their cap. 
 

If you move up a box, your cap goes down. If you move back a box, your cap goes up. Your standard deviations from your mean score will be tighter the further up you go, because the course is easier. 
 

IMO, there isn’t a more fair game than everyone playing the same tees, with USGA cap recommendations for the form of play. 
 

2-stroke penalty for whining. 

[Colin L]

4 hours ago, SeaIsland said:

I'm nearly 66 (a 5HC) and my partner is 72 (a 12HC). We got into our club's member/member playoff today based on having the second best wildcard score --and we nearly pulled it off. But it was a miracle that we got that far, and that's the point of this post.

 

I hit my drives 230-250. My partner hits his drives 170-190. We were playing against guys who were hitting the ball 280-320. And we were playing them from the same tees. My point is, it was the first time in my golfing life that I genuinely felt like my team was at an obvious, unfair disadvantage. While tournament staff are finally starting to address the problem by offering tee box-based solutions that close the gap for the 70+ year old guys who can still move the ball versus their more elderly peers who no longer can, what about the rest of us?

 

We only offered a 5900 and 6200 yard option for this tournament. Why just two options? And why not a more meaningful length difference? You couldn't even exercise the 5900 yard option unless your age and HC index exceeded a threshold that in practice, only qualified a handful of players. Surely some enlightened club has figured this out? If leveling the playing field for older guys makes sense, then why not younger guys too, especially when old and young are playing each other.

 

When I'm playing guys who are hitting driver/7 iron into Par 5s, I have to scratch my head. Is it sour grapes to complain and/or am I wrong to suggest that the HC system should normalize for significant age discrepancies? If not in the HC system, should club pros who are setting up member events take matters into their own hands?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thats's what handicaps are for.

[SeaIsland]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

Unless it’s a scramble, or scratch, I don’t understand the complaint. 2-man handicapped best ball? Your cap is your cap. Their cap is their cap. 
 

If you move up a box, your cap goes down. If you move back a box, your cap goes up. Your standard deviations from your mean score will be tighter the further up you go, because the course is easier. 
 

IMO, there isn’t a more fair game than everyone playing the same tees, with USGA cap recommendations for the form of play. 
 

2-stroke penalty for whining. 

OK... I'll take that. Just can't help wondering if there isn't a better way to incorporate 30 year age differences as a dimension of HC. Wishful thinking.

[Bonneville85308]

As a short hitter who isn't eligible to collect social security yet, one of my pet peeves is when an a club or event uses age as a requirement in determining what tee you can play from.

[bluedot]

I’m 71, and my 74 yr old partner and I won our club’s Member-Member this year; oldest team ever to win.  I played from 6000 yds, and my partner played from 5600; every player in the tournament got to pick the tees they would play from.  The beauty of the handicap system is that you simply get an adjustment to the strokes.

 

That said, the format matters, too.  We played five 9 hole matches in flights by handicap (NOT age!) at 80% of our indexes.  That means that not many strokes are being given; one or two at the most.  The shootout was true alternate shot, and the first three holes, which eliminated all but two teams, weren’t stroke holes.  The last hole was, and we actually had to give a shot to our opponents each of the three times we played the hole; they yanked a tee shot OB the third time.

 

[dmecca2]

Golf is really an amazing sport. Where else do you guys get the opportunity to compete against 20 and 30 something year olds..... and WIN. You made the shootout, congrats!

[szaino]

At my club, you declare your tournament tees which are then used for handicapped events run by the club. When playing friendly matches for money, this is a separate negotiation as to which tee you play from and how many strokes you get. This year, I moved up a tee to a 124 slope. My competitive amateur tournament days are over and I just want to compete on a fun level.    

 

As mentioned above, the handicapping system levels out the competition regardless of which tee you are playing from.

 

For me, being 70 and a single digit, I can understand how the OP feels. I enjoy all playing aspects of golf, but there is an intangible aspect that can beat you down when you have to hit long irons ( 6 and >) or hybrids for 2nd shots into par 4's. You need to have more balance where you are hitting wedges to 7 irons into par 4's. This just seems to make it more fun and less taxing on my body. 

 

[SNIPERBBB]

Just remember if you move up to the up tees, youll surrender a lot of strokes compared to the regular tees depending on your course. My course youd lose 5 strokes.

 

Side note, i despise playing split tees because your literally not playing the same course anymore.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, SeaIsland said:

OK... I'll take that. Just can't help wondering if there isn't a better way to incorporate 30 year age differences as a dimension of HC. Wishful thinking.

 

Your age doesn't matter. Your scores do.

[david.c.w]

Is there not a handicap allocation in the shootout?  I bet if you had a pop against the youngsters you would not be complaining.

 

We have done it several ways, with no clear best way.

 

Old way - Everyone goes to 14 and we play in to 18 eliminating teams along the way.  Full and 1/2 stroke allocations are in play.  Generally favors higher handicaps.  Also takes an eternity.

 

New way - Flight winners and wildcards are split into 3 pods of 4, no strokes.  Winners of pods play each other as weird par 3, no strokes.  Hole is ~150 yards:  10 tee to 18 green.  Generally favors lower handicaps.  This is fun because we can watch pod winners from the 19th hole.

 

I have also seen us do a modified shootout where flight winners play into 18 as a par 3 from different distances.  Pod 1 plays from 170, pod 2 from 150, pod 3 from 130.  No strokes, repeat as necessary.

 

 

[Colin L]

6 hours ago, SeaIsland said:

OK... I'll take that. Just can't help wondering if there isn't a better way to incorporate 30 year age differences as a dimension of HC. Wishful thinking.

Why should there be?  Age has nothing to do with it.  Handicaps are calculated solely on the number of strokes taken to go round.a golf course.    

[kiwigolf72]

At the club I play at they like to push players back in the summer to the blue tees (1 up from the tips) for members comps.

Some of the older guys and higher HC players complain that the course is too long, and they have trouble reaching the longer holes in regulation. If you are a higher HC player, then you don't need to hit every green in regulation to compete.

These are all HC games, and we don't play spilt tees for the same comp.

[davep043]

I'm waiting for the first time someone will say 

"This format (handicap system, tee selection, whatever)  is way too biased in my favor"

 

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I'm waiting for the first time someone will say 

"This format (handicap system, tee selection, whatever)  is way too biased in my favor"

 

As you know… One-on-one, it generally favors the lower handicappers. In a group, it generally favors the higher handicappers.

 

But people only complain when they're on the wrong side of those generalities. 😄 

[davep043]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

But people only complain when they're on the wrong side of those generalities.

In my experience, people complain even when they have an advantage.

[rogolf]

23 minutes ago, davep043 said:

In my experience, people complain even when they have an advantage.

Because they don't think it's a big enough advantage? 🙃

[PJE]

Power has always been an advantage.  I think it’s best to rely on the handicap system as the vehicle for fairness in this instance. Otherwise, isn’t  negating your opponent’s power in the name of equality creating a potential disadvantage or inequality for your opponent? 
We would not have any memorable underdog upsets or David vs Goliath moments if instrinic advantages were normalized. 

[Nickb333]

I’m of the option that handicap events should be flighted whenever possible. Much easier for sandbaggers to operate successfully with 15+ index. 
 

To the op, I agree with most everyone above. The handicap is the best way. If you’re the high guy, take the strokes and run. 

[SeaIsland]

I appreciate all the responses, especially the "2 shot penalty for whining..."  You're right, we did well and actually beat most of the guys who were air mailing our drives... What's the difference between us beating them versus them beating themselves? I suppose it's foolish pride. I may have had one too many non-alcohol beers when I whined.

[mark m]

8 hours ago, SeaIsland said:

I appreciate all the responses, especially the "2 shot penalty for whining..."  You're right, we did well and actually beat most of the guys who were air mailing our drives... What's the difference between us beating them versus them beating themselves? I suppose it's foolish pride. I may have had one too many non-alcohol beers when I whined.

jvincent asked what the format of play was in the first reply above. I don’t believe you responded. What is a “wildcard” score? What was the format? And was it different in the playoff? Thanks 

[SeaIsland]

2 hours ago, mark m said:

jvincent asked what the format of play was in the first reply above. I don’t believe you responded. What is a “wildcard” score? What was the format? And was it different in the playoff? Thanks 

The Wildcard is the best team score that didn't win its flight. We managed to score 35 points which is a lot of points to not win with, which probably contributed to my whining. Anyway, 35 points was good enough to get the wildcard. That's how we got into the playoffs and had a shot at winning. The format was traditional: five 9 hole matches with 1 point per hole (win), 1/2 point (tie) and 0 points (loss). The winner of the match would also receive a 1 point bonus. You got 80% of your HC. In the shoot out, everyone other than the first two flights got a shot on the hole, which was definitely an advantage for the higher HCs. For perspective, the highest cumulative HC in the first two flights was 8, so there were a lot of good players in this event. If there wasn't a winner on the playoff hole, the remaining teams would have done a "chip off."  I suppose you could look at it like this: The low HC teams got screwed on the playoff hole. But rewarded if they survived and went to the chip-off (the assumption being that lower HCs are better chippers... which isn't necessarily a safe assumption when I think about it).

[mark m]

13 minutes ago, SeaIsland said:

The Wildcard is the best team score that didn't win its flight. We managed to score 35 points which is a lot of points to not win with, which probably contributed to my whining. Anyway, 35 points was good enough to get the wildcard. That's how we got into the playoffs and had a shot at winning. The format was traditional: five 9 hole matches with 1 point per hole (win), 1/2 point (tie) and 0 points (loss). The winner of the match would also receive a 1 point bonus. You got 80% of your HC. In the shoot out, everyone other than the first two flights got a shot on the hole, which was definitely an advantage for the higher HCs. For perspective, the highest cumulative HC in the first two flights was 8, so there were a lot of good players in this event. If there wasn't a winner on the playoff hole, the remaining teams would have done a "chip off."  I suppose you could look at it like this: The low HC teams got screwed on the playoff hole. But rewarded if they survived and went to the chip-off (the assumption being that lower HCs are better chippers... which isn't necessarily a safe assumption when I think about it).

 

So the nine hole matches were Fourball match play? Or what? And the playoff/shoot-out the same? (Some use an alternative shot format in the playoff/shootout.)

 

And as a low handicap I am familiar with these types of formats and I typically avoid them. It depends on the details. Thank you.

[SeaIsland]

12 minutes ago, mark m said:

 

So the nine hole matches were Fourball match play? Or what? And the playoff/shoot-out the same? (Some use an alternative shot format in the playoff/shootout.)

 

And as a low handicap I am familiar with these types of formats and I typically avoid them. It depends on the details. Thank you.

Low net/best ball match play. Playoff was alternative shot. Good catch.

12 minutes ago, mark m said:

 

So the nine hole matches were Fourball match play? Or what? And the playoff/shoot-out the same? (Some use an alternative shot format in the playoff/shootout.)

 

And as a low handicap I am familiar with these types of formats and I typically avoid them. It depends on the details. Thank you.

 

[Pepperturbo]

Sounds like the OP was in the wrong tournament.  IMO 5900yd and 6200yd tees are by definition, short yardages.   I am 70+ and my buddy is 77 with 18 handi, and maybe 200yds off the tee; I hit 2i further.  When we play, he chooses to play blue tees with me, even though it's tough for him.  Often times people forget, everything in golf relies on good judgement and choice.

 

My reference point goes back to my 10–12 years of pvt club Interclub Match play events.  I was a -2 or 3, often playing against guys much younger or older with much higher or lower handicaps.  Some of the high-cap guys voiced their displeasure playing against a -2, yet they were playing shorter tees than me.  I wasn't complaining about their advantage using shorter tees.   

 

A few weeks back, I played a game with a 48/50-year-old, 10 handi friend.  We played his choice of longer tees.  Again, I am 70+ and still beat him, though he was 20-40yds longer than me off the tee and got strokes...before we teed off, he thought that was fair, after not so much. 

 

The other fact here is there are seldom enough golfers in every age and handicap category to fill fields for events.  The cost of adding tee boxes is almost prohibitive today, even for financially healthy clubs.  Back then, often times, I played against scratch or + players, and played the same tees.  If someone has issues playing younger and or more skilled opponents, and longer tees, they shouldn't play in events where that is liable to happen.  Handicaps and different tee boxes are supposed to be the leveling agent, but psychologically those are not enough for people that want unicorn fairness.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[david.c.w]

1 hour ago, SeaIsland said:

The Wildcard is the best team score that didn't win its flight. We managed to score 35 points which is a lot of points to not win with, which probably contributed to my whining. Anyway, 35 points was good enough to get the wildcard. That's how we got into the playoffs and had a shot at winning. The format was traditional: five 9 hole matches with 1 point per hole (win), 1/2 point (tie) and 0 points (loss). The winner of the match would also receive a 1 point bonus. You got 80% of your HC. In the shoot out, everyone other than the first two flights got a shot on the hole, which was definitely an advantage for the higher HCs. For perspective, the highest cumulative HC in the first two flights was 8, so there were a lot of good players in this event. If there wasn't a winner on the playoff hole, the remaining teams would have done a "chip off."  I suppose you could look at it like this: The low HC teams got screwed on the playoff hole. But rewarded if they survived and went to the chip-off (the assumption being that lower HCs are better chippers... which isn't necessarily a safe assumption when I think about it).

 

35 points and you did not win your flight?  I would not be complaining about "longer hitters".  The other 4 teams in your flight are currently complaining about both you and the flight winner's handicaps.  Your complaint is WAY down the list. 

 

Edit:  I played in a MG this summer.  Flight above us had a team get 34 points.  The team had to actually withdraw from the shootout before it started due to the backlash.  

Edited November 7, 2023 by david.c.w

[dmecca2]

20 hours ago, david.c.w said:

 

35 points and you did not win your flight?  I would not be complaining about "longer hitters".  The other 4 teams in your flight are currently complaining about both you and the flight winner's handicaps.  Your complaint is WAY down the list. 

 

Edit:  I played in a MG this summer.  Flight above us had a team get 34 points.  The team had to actually withdraw from the shootout before it started due to the backlash.  

Missed that little bit. Unless there was an extra 9 holes, I don't think I've seen 2 teams get over 30 points in a flight. Did the other teams even win a hole? There are only 45 points possible per team and that's if you win every single hole.... You're telling us that you guys got 35 and the other team had over 35? I'm not sure this is even possible because you have to play each other too. You would have to win every other match 8-1 or 9-0....

 

Edit: I now see there was a bonus point for winning a match. So 50 total points available per team. Still insanity in that flight.

Edited November 8, 2023 by dmecca2

[SeaIsland]

On 11/8/2023 at 11:43 AM, dmecca2 said:

Missed that little bit. Unless there was an extra 9 holes, I don't think I've seen 2 teams get over 30 points in a flight. Did the other teams even win a hole? There are only 45 points possible per team and that's if you win every single hole.... You're telling us that you guys got 35 and the other team had over 35? I'm not sure this is even possible because you have to play each other too. You would have to win every other match 8-1 or 9-0....

 

Edit: I now see there was a bonus point for winning a match. So 50 total points available per team. Still insanity in that flight.

First match: 6.5/3/5; Second match: 7/3; Third match: 4/6; Fourth match: 5/5; Fifth match: 6.5/3.5;  "Make up Final --where 1 plays 2; 3 plays 4 and 5 plays 6; 6/4

 

All told equals 35. I wasn't clear about the "make up matches."