I’m giving up Blades... sort of...

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,820 ✭✭
    All depends on rough. South Carolina Bermuda during a wet July or August will change that mindset. And I can power it out with anyone.
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  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,205 ✭✭
    balls_deep wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:

    balls_deep wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:


    "Fact is being closer to the green (in general) is going to mean lower scores and more GIRs. "



    ​And that's done off the tee and in most cases with a Driver, or fairway metal, not an iron. Also the mentality of bomb and recover that is so ever present even on the Tour is highly flawed especially if you play wooded and crooked tracks. Pro's bomb it big but the ones who win find the proper side of fairway and leave the ball at a good angle and on a good lie.




    Obviously I'm not advocating trying to bomb it on tracks like that. My inlaws own a house at a very tricky course in Florida that you have to be extremely defensive on. OB everywhere and tee shots so tight that you are forced to hit iron even if it leaves you a long club in. My friend who plays mini tours down there came to play and had to fight just to break 80. It's obviously course dependant but I think it's pretty flawed to say FIR = GIR. It just isn't the case. As per the video I'd rather hit driver (if it's safe to) to have a wedge or 9 iron in from the rough rather than take the safe option and hit a 5 iron from the fairway. I don't go with that theory when I'm playing the above course though as you'll be OB or in water if you do that.




    I track my GIR and FIR, if I'm in the right quadrant of fairway after tee shot, my GIR percentage is like 75%, goes way down if I'm out of position in the rough or leave myself a funky lie. Average 8 GIR's can & have been double digits on a course that leave driver in bag till 8th hole and that can be safely used on 6 holes tops. 3W, 5W & 3i get the call on rest (outside of 3 par3's). The 3i is the most reliable of those. So I'll agree to disagree.




    Yeah but I'm not comparing a 7 iron from the fairway to a 7 iron from the rough or funky lie. Driver vs 3 iron (hole dependant of course) could mean you're hitting PW instead of 7 iron. That's a big difference. 3 wood vs driver ending up in hitting 6 iron vs 7 iron I'd take the safer play all day. I don't think we disagree as much as you think. I'm not advocating playing recklessly. I'm just saying your statistical analysis is not considering 120 yards from the rough to 165 yards from the fairway. I'm take 120 from the rough all day.




    I green light longest club by risk & reward, if you think I'm talking hitting 3i on a wide open Par 5,that's no where near what I'm saying. I'll take 140 from fairway over 120 from rough any day, all day especially if it's the right angle of approach to the hole.
  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 560 ✭✭
    Agree on 140 vs 120.
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  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 New EnglandMembers Posts: 730 ✭✭


    For anyone doubting the importance of turf interaction. Read this thread. Many much smarter folks posting with thoughts and proof , showing how the myth that the ball is long gone and uneffected by how the club goes through the ground or off a mat , isn't really as cut and dry as the old wives tale claims.



    http://www.golfwrx.c...0#entry18695770




    To that point, I think something that's overly "taught" in golf is the perpetuated idea of hitting ball then ground. This is very overdone which leads to thin shots that are too low on the club face in an extreme effort to hit ball first.



    If you go on YouTube a look up as many slow mo golf impacts as you can (driver not applicable) you'll find in these Tour Pro impacts that the club is actually coming into contact with the ground just before the ball, and it's the impact of the club into the ball that deflects the head down lower into the turf to make a divot. It's super eye opening.



    If anyone is a fan of Mark Crossfield too, he talks a lot in his videos about how the club actually touches the ground first then the ball.
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  • jecarnljecarnl Members Posts: 94 ✭✭
    balls_deep wrote:

    jecarnl wrote:


    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.




    If you believe in scientific studies then it does on mishits.




    If only a human was a robot.
  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 774 ✭✭
    BiggErn wrote:

    playa wrote:
    Opposite here.



    Sick of sloppy inconsistent results with GI shovels, I've decided to go back to my roots. Went to a second hand shop without any real expectations as I have the unusual preference for regular shafts in the irons. Saw a set of Cleveland CG1 tours in mint condition. Pulled one out expecting to see the customary S300 sticker on the shaft, but to my surprise they had R300s. Closer inspection revealed 1/2 inch long and new mid size Pure grips. These could have been custom made for me. Anyway there was no net so I couldn't hit them, but $250 lafter I'm the proud owner of a mint set of combo CB/blades.




    How much does shaft flex have to do with a perfect strike?


    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.
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  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 774 ✭✭


    All depends on rough. South Carolina Bermuda during a wet July or August will change that mindset. And I can power it out with anyone.


    It's another interesting aspect of the strokes gained data/implied strategy. Unconditionally (i.e. without knowing the exact rough condition, pin, etc), I'd rather have wedge than 8 iron, as I think less can go wrong with the shorter club/shot and there's usually enough loft to manage even a crappy lie. But I've never been as sure with 6-iron in the rough vs. hybrid from the fairway. I think Broadie's data, even for hackers, said your still better off closer, but it's become less obvious to me, as I need a decent lie in the rough to be able to do something useful with the ball with the lower lofted clubs.



    In contrast, the pros have enough speed to hack it out the rough with ease (most courses they play).
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  • dciccorittidciccoritti An inch an hour, 2 feet a day Toronto, CanadaMembers Posts: 1,568 ✭✭
    balls_deep wrote:
    jecarnl wrote:
    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.
    If you believe in scientific studies then it does on mishits.




    Scientific studies? You've come across and read some scientific studies? Can you please pass me the links because I've been looking for some to read but can't seem to find them anywhere. Really looking forward to see how these tests were constructed and the results. Thanks in advance - David :-)

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,820 ✭✭

    balls_deep wrote:
    jecarnl wrote:
    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.
    If you believe in scientific studies then it does on mishits.




    Scientific studies? You've come across and read some scientific studies? Can you please pass me the links because I've been looking for some to read but can't seem to find them anywhere. Really looking forward to see how these tests were constructed and the results. Thanks in advance - David :-)




    lol. Nobody hold their breathe. We don’t want to lose anyone here. You’ll sooner see the Easter bunny hop by.
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  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Allez Allez Allez Minnesota, USAMembers Posts: 6,277 ✭✭


    balls_deep wrote:
    jecarnl wrote:
    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.
    If you believe in scientific studies then it does on mishits.




    Scientific studies? You've come across and read some scientific studies? Can you please pass me the links because I've been looking for some to read but can't seem to find them anywhere. Really looking forward to see how these tests were constructed and the results. Thanks in advance - David :-)




    lol. Nobody hold their breathe. We don't want to lose anyone here. You'll sooner see the Easter bunny hop by.






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  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,205 ✭✭
    agolf1 wrote:

    BiggErn wrote:

    playa wrote:
    Opposite here.



    Sick of sloppy inconsistent results with GI shovels, I've decided to go back to my roots. Went to a second hand shop without any real expectations as I have the unusual preference for regular shafts in the irons. Saw a set of Cleveland CG1 tours in mint condition. Pulled one out expecting to see the customary S300 sticker on the shaft, but to my surprise they had R300s. Closer inspection revealed 1/2 inch long and new mid size Pure grips. These could have been custom made for me. Anyway there was no net so I couldn't hit them, but $250 lafter I'm the proud owner of a mint set of combo CB/blades.




    How much does shaft flex have to do with a perfect strike?


    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.




    The irony is that DG maybe the Chevy small block of shafts and super wide in use but they are probably the "blades" of shafts. They are some of most difficult sticks to live up to their true design intent. Pointed criticism abounds for MB's, but nobody in blog world blinks an eye at that or or that much lampooning is done by ones carrying 3-4 Vokey wedges to handle scoring range of a 140 yards in. 'Blade guy' is the nut though, lol.
  • bub72ckbub72ck Members Posts: 2,456 ✭✭
    Nard_S wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:

    BiggErn wrote:

    playa wrote:
    Opposite here.



    Sick of sloppy inconsistent results with GI shovels, I've decided to go back to my roots. Went to a second hand shop without any real expectations as I have the unusual preference for regular shafts in the irons. Saw a set of Cleveland CG1 tours in mint condition. Pulled one out expecting to see the customary S300 sticker on the shaft, but to my surprise they had R300s. Closer inspection revealed 1/2 inch long and new mid size Pure grips. These could have been custom made for me. Anyway there was no net so I couldn't hit them, but $250 lafter I'm the proud owner of a mint set of combo CB/blades.




    How much does shaft flex have to do with a perfect strike?


    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.




    The irony is that DG maybe the Chevy small block of shafts and super wide in use but they are probably the "blades" of shafts. They are some of most difficult sticks to live up to their true design intent. Pointed criticism abounds for MB's, but nobody in blog world blinks an eye at that or or that much lampooning is done by ones carrying 3-4 Vokey wedges to handle scoring range of a 140 yards in. 'Blade guy' is the nut though, lol.




    What do you mean by that statement?
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  • cliffhangercliffhanger spruce grove albertaClubWRX Posts: 1,753 ClubWRX
    Nard_S wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:

    BiggErn wrote:

    playa wrote:
    Opposite here.



    Sick of sloppy inconsistent results with GI shovels, I've decided to go back to my roots. Went to a second hand shop without any real expectations as I have the unusual preference for regular shafts in the irons. Saw a set of Cleveland CG1 tours in mint condition. Pulled one out expecting to see the customary S300 sticker on the shaft, but to my surprise they had R300s. Closer inspection revealed 1/2 inch long and new mid size Pure grips. These could have been custom made for me. Anyway there was no net so I couldn't hit them, but $250 lafter I'm the proud owner of a mint set of combo CB/blades.




    How much does shaft flex have to do with a perfect strike?


    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.




    The irony is that DG maybe the Chevy small block of shafts and super wide in use but they are probably the "blades" of shafts. They are some of most difficult sticks to live up to their true design intent. Pointed criticism abounds for MB's, but nobody in blog world blinks an eye at that or or that much lampooning is done by ones carrying 3-4 Vokey wedges to handle scoring range of a 140 yards in. 'Blade guy' is the nut though, lol.
    I can say this based on my experience. I was a DG player for a long time. When i went through the fitting process with the MP-18 MB's, the difference between that club with the DG's and the PX LZ's was profound. The LZ's gave me increased launch, improved spin through the entire set, a better strike pattern, and ultimately better dispersion. If the LZ shaft was not an option and it was the DG's or nothing, i would not have played those MB's last year at all.


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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,820 ✭✭
    bub72ck wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:

    BiggErn wrote:

    playa wrote:
    Opposite here.



    Sick of sloppy inconsistent results with GI shovels, I've decided to go back to my roots. Went to a second hand shop without any real expectations as I have the unusual preference for regular shafts in the irons. Saw a set of Cleveland CG1 tours in mint condition. Pulled one out expecting to see the customary S300 sticker on the shaft, but to my surprise they had R300s. Closer inspection revealed 1/2 inch long and new mid size Pure grips. These could have been custom made for me. Anyway there was no net so I couldn't hit them, but $250 lafter I'm the proud owner of a mint set of combo CB/blades.




    How much does shaft flex have to do with a perfect strike?


    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.




    The irony is that DG maybe the Chevy small block of shafts and super wide in use but they are probably the "blades" of shafts. They are some of most difficult sticks to live up to their true design intent. Pointed criticism abounds for MB's, but nobody in blog world blinks an eye at that or or that much lampooning is done by ones carrying 3-4 Vokey wedges to handle scoring range of a 140 yards in. 'Blade guy' is the nut though, lol.




    What do you mean by that statement?




    He’s saying that the shaft is rarely considered. And it’s easily as equal as clubhead to overalll fit and usefulness of a club to someone.



    And next that fact that soo many 12-20 handicappers carry 4 wedges and yet you hear the fear in their voice of an mb iron is mentioned.

    It’s lunacy. A guy who cannot hit an mb 7-9 iron cannot possibly control distances well enough to carry 4 wedges. The irony is what he’s pointing out. That and the fact that most wedges are an mb design. Lol. And most of those players carry a 5-6 hybrid. So somewhere from gap wedge to 7 iron we feel afraid.

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  • bub72ckbub72ck Members Posts: 2,456 ✭✭
    bub72ck wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:








    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.





    The irony is that DG maybe the Chevy small block of shafts and super wide in use but they are probably the "blades" of shafts. They are some of most difficult sticks to live up to their true design intent. Pointed criticism abounds for MB's, but nobody in blog world blinks an eye at that or or that much lampooning is done by ones carrying 3-4 Vokey wedges to handle scoring range of a 140 yards in. 'Blade guy' is the nut though, lol.




    What do you mean by that statement?




    He's saying that the shaft is rarely considered. And it's easily as equal as clubhead to overalll fit and usefulness of a club to someone.



    And next that fact that soo many 12-20 handicappers carry 4 wedges and yet you hear the fear in their voice of an mb iron is mentioned.

    It's lunacy. A guy who cannot hit an mb 7-9 iron cannot possibly control distances well enough to carry 4 wedges. The irony is what he's pointing out. That and the fact that most wedges are an mb design. Lol. And most of those players carry a 5-6 hybrid. So somewhere from gap wedge to 7 iron we feel afraid.




    I think iron shafts can make difference in performance but cost is a big inhibitor for graphite irons. That can easily add $500+ to a set of irons with graphite shafts.



    I'm on the fence about the multiple wedge debate. I carry 4 wedges because I prefer the ability to dial in distances in scoring range instead of carrying an extra long iron or wood that may rarely every be used. Looking at your WITB, you feel the same way. But, I actually would give some weight to the 7-PW being cavity vs. muscle back. A 7 iron is going to travel 160-180 yards for a lot of people. Those are tough shots for mid handicappers to get on the green so I would prefer to have the forgiveness over a MB. But that's just me.
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  • GautamaGautama Members Posts: 754 ✭✭
    This is always such an interesting discussion because there's always two separate lines of argument going on. One is the theoretical, sort of "mind experiment" dialog where theoretical concepts and ideas are being debated, and the other is the anecdotal, subjective "in my experience I play better/worse/the same with blades v CBs." What's never presented is any controlled, objective, empirical data. Personally, that no such data seems to exist in the business speaks volumes.



    I'm not a great golfer...kind of in that middle ground where when I play with bad golfers they think I'm good, and good golfers think "you're getting there" (for thirty odd years now, lol). I own or have owned every general type of club under the sun from MBs to genuine shovels and personally, subjectively, find little impact on my game with any, but my feeling is I play marginally worse at the extremes, ie with the JPX EZs and the MP 69s. And my subjective feeling is that's due primarily to how I feel when I set up to the ball with them, but I just don't see significant changes in long/short dispersion with any of them, and offline is offline period. I play an old set of JPX pros most often because the middle ground suits my eye, but have been playing MP 64 for most the past year or so with no impact to my score. Who knows.



    Thought this was interesting, anyone else check this out? Still not scientific, but kind of a cool test.





    OP, you have to promise to come back to this thread and post your own experience once you get a good number of games under your belt with the new sticks!
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,820 ✭✭
    bub72ck wrote:

    bub72ck wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:








    I think playa posted the "S300s in blades are the problem for some" in the other thread (battleground) as well. I'm a GI/SGI guy, and don't plan on changing anytime soon even if my scores get better (which are still crappy compared to others here). But I think there's a good chance what he's saying is true.



    Everyone says the shaft flex does very little to change launch by itself but weight is a key factor, and these two combined can change how people swing the club. I've never hit any of the newer blades or players CBs with say the DG105 R300 (probably don't even have a demo with this option image/rofl.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rofl:' /> ), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results are much much better than what I remember trying to hit these types of irons with S300.





    The irony is that DG maybe the Chevy small block of shafts and super wide in use but they are probably the "blades" of shafts. They are some of most difficult sticks to live up to their true design intent. Pointed criticism abounds for MB's, but nobody in blog world blinks an eye at that or or that much lampooning is done by ones carrying 3-4 Vokey wedges to handle scoring range of a 140 yards in. 'Blade guy' is the nut though, lol.




    What do you mean by that statement?




    He's saying that the shaft is rarely considered. And it's easily as equal as clubhead to overalll fit and usefulness of a club to someone.



    And next that fact that soo many 12-20 handicappers carry 4 wedges and yet you hear the fear in their voice of an mb iron is mentioned.

    It's lunacy. A guy who cannot hit an mb 7-9 iron cannot possibly control distances well enough to carry 4 wedges. The irony is what he's pointing out. That and the fact that most wedges are an mb design. Lol. And most of those players carry a 5-6 hybrid. So somewhere from gap wedge to 7 iron we feel afraid.




    I think iron shafts can make difference in performance but cost is a big inhibitor for graphite irons. That can easily add $500+ to a set of irons with graphite shafts.



    I'm on the fence about the multiple wedge debate. I carry 4 wedges because I prefer the ability to dial in distances in scoring range instead of carrying an extra long iron or wood that may rarely every be used. Looking at your WITB, you feel the same way. But, I actually would give some weight to the 7-PW being cavity vs. muscle back. A 7 iron is going to travel 160-180 yards for a lot of people. Those are tough shots for mid handicappers to get on the green so I would prefer to have the forgiveness over a MB. But that's just me.




    No. Choices are fine.



    He ( and now I ) are just pointing out the one sided ness of that argument.
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  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Allez Allez Allez Minnesota, USAMembers Posts: 6,277 ✭✭
    bub72ck wrote:


    I think iron shafts can make difference in performance but cost is a big inhibitor for graphite irons. That can easily add $500+ to a set of irons with graphite shafts.






    There are quality graphite shaft options that cost roughly the same as many steel shafts, and in some cases less. I shafted up a set of Golden Rams with NV105 shafts, which cost less than Nippon Modus3 shafts.



    Helps that I do the assembly myself. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
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  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,205 ✭✭




    No. Choices are fine.



    He ( and now I ) are just pointing out the one sided ness of that argument.




    Exactly, on both points, thank you.



    "Smart" golfer now has to master 4 different types of clubs to get to green, when it once was two. Needs buy two wedges to handle loft creep alone & hybrids for tweeners to metals. I get the logic but my body does not especially in .2 seconds, so I'll stick with two because I've done the progressive CB, flighted shaft thing and I'm way happier with KISS.
  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey Members Posts: 397 ✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 2:54pm #231
    Gautama wrote:


    What's never presented is any controlled, objective, empirical data. Personally, that no such data seems to exist in the business speaks volumes.






    And this is, ultimately, the crux of the issue. There really is no real objective data that has been published. A fair number of pseudo-tests are out there, but nothing that looks very dependable.



    Golf is somewhat unique this way. In baseball, practically anybody who can legally use an a metal or composite bat, does so. In skiing, the same true holds for shaped skis - not a single major manufacturer makes an old-school straight skinny ski anymore. In tennis, nobody plays with wood or steel or aluminum in a standard size frame anymore. Nobody racing bikes seriously is on an old lugged steel from the Italian masters.



    Why? Because it's so **** obvious - night and day obvious - what the new technology is doing for you. Are we golfers somehow unique in that some of us have some self-destructive trait (in terms of playing performance) that no other sport does? I seriously doubt it. Even in golf virtually all of us are playing with modern tech drivers (even if some think a 410cc "mini" driver from 12yrs ago is "old" -hah!) If it were so obvious and the difference were so important to playing effectively, I'd posit nobody would be playing players CBs (which are effectively blades in many cases) or actual blades. So why do we have the situation where we do?
  • uwhockey14uwhockey14 Members Posts: 258 ✭✭
    BiggErn wrote:

    uwhockey14 wrote:
    BiggErn wrote:

    uwhockey14 wrote:
    I wouldn't even know where to start to hit a cavity back iron, I was 14 and a 10 handicap the last time I played an Iron with a cavity back....






    Lol. Like any other club.




    Doesn't work that way, cavity back's are way less workable, usually have completely different turf interaction and usually a lighter swing weight.... for someone who has played muscle back blades for as long as I have, the golf swing changes when you put a cavity back iron in my hands, its unavoidable.... especially if you want to shape the ball....






    I’m sure you’re a world class ball striker that can knock down pins with every shot imaginable. Turf interaction is a preference not performance attribute. The point was the goal is to hit the center of the face like you would with any club. Why do you need to work the ball if you can hit it straight? That is unless you’re way offline and have to curve around obstacles.




    I played college golf and the mini tours in the 2000's so yes shaping the ball was and is a big part of my game! making solid contact isn't really an issue for me, at least not since I was in my teens! I can swing a club once and tell by the way it goes through the turf if its a club i'm interested in or not and usually a cavity back iron has WAY too much drag....
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  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 New EnglandMembers Posts: 730 ✭✭
    Gautama wrote:


    This is always such an interesting discussion because there's always two separate lines of argument going on. One is the theoretical, sort of "mind experiment" dialog where theoretical concepts and ideas are being debated, and the other is the anecdotal, subjective "in my experience I play better/worse/the same with blades v CBs." What's never presented is any controlled, objective, empirical data. Personally, that no such data seems to exist in the business speaks volumes.



    I'm not a great golfer...kind of in that middle ground where when I play with bad golfers they think I'm good, and good golfers think "you're getting there" (for thirty odd years now, lol). I own or have owned every general type of club under the sun from MBs to genuine shovels and personally, subjectively, find little impact on my game with any, but my feeling is I play marginally worse at the extremes, ie with the JPX EZs and the MP 69s. And my subjective feeling is that's due primarily to how I feel when I set up to the ball with them, but I just don't see significant changes in long/short dispersion with any of them, and offline is offline period. I play an old set of JPX pros most often because the middle ground suits my eye, but have been playing MP 64 for most the past year or so with no impact to my score. Who knows.



    Thought this was interesting, anyone else check this out? Still not scientific, but kind of a cool test.

    https://youtu.be/Svph4j46tg4



    OP, you have to promise to come back to this thread and post your own experience once you get a good number of games under your belt with the new sticks!




    The problem with presenting "[background=transparent]controlled, objective, empirical data" is that it would come from robot testing and there would always be that crowd who says "well humans aren't robots!" and claim the data is useless, lol.[/background]



    [background=transparent]To your last point, I definitely will keep circling back to this thread to read the latest posts and follow up with my own experience. In fact, I have 4-5 rounds coming up when I fly to Florida in mid-April, and then I have some qualifying stuff early May. I'll post back with early results after that for sure. [/background]
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  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 560 ✭✭

    @tgoodspe1991 said:

    [background=transparent]To your last point, I definitely will keep circling back to this thread to read the latest posts and follow up with my own experience. In fact, I have 4-5 rounds coming up when I fly to Florida in mid-April, and then I have some qualifying stuff early May. I'll post back with early results after that for sure. [/background]

    Looking forward to hearing how the switch goes for you

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,820 ✭✭

    @NRJyzr said:
    bladehunter wrote:


    dciccoritti wrote:


    balls_deep wrote:

    jecarnl wrote:

    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.

    If you believe in scientific studies then it does on mishits.

    Scientific studies? You've come across and read some scientific studies? Can you please pass me the links because I've been looking for some to read but can't seem to find them anywhere. Really looking forward to see how these tests were constructed and the results. Thanks in advance - David :-)

    lol. Nobody hold their breathe. We don't want to lose anyone here. You'll sooner see the Easter bunny hop by.

    Did you know the Easter Bunny is a Wilson Staff player? Button backs. /pimp.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':pimp:' />

    I hope he brings me a set ! Lol. Those and the ping blueprint are on the radar.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,820 ✭✭
    edited Mar 24, 2019 7:40pm #236

    Ex> @dubbelbogey said:

    Gautama wrote:

    What's never presented is any controlled, objective, empirical data. Personally, that no such data seems to exist in the business speaks volumes.

    And this is, ultimately, the crux of the issue. There really is no real objective data that has been published. A fair number of pseudo-tests are out there, but nothing that looks very dependable.

    Golf is somewhat unique this way. In baseball, practically anybody who can legally use an a metal or composite bat, does so. In skiing, the same true holds for shaped skis - not a single major manufacturer makes an old-school straight skinny ski anymore. In tennis, nobody plays with wood or steel or aluminum in a standard size frame anymore. Nobody racing bikes seriously is on an old lugged steel from the Italian masters.

    Why? Because it's so **** obvious - night and day obvious - what the new technology is doing for you. Are we golfers somehow unique in that some of us have some self-destructive trait (in terms of playing performance) that no other sport does? I seriously doubt it. Even in golf virtually all of us are playing with modern tech drivers (even if some think a 410cc "mini" driver from 12yrs ago is "old" -hah!) If it were so obvious and the difference were so important to playing effectively, I'd posit nobody would be playing players CBs (which are effectively blades in many cases) or actual blades. So why do we have the situation where we do?

    Extremely intelligent post. I’ve had this same thought before. And never anyone who will try to answer it. I’ve even argued with myself over it.

    There’s a couple mindsets I can get into playing this game. Sometimes to bludgeon the game with a big hammer. But sometimes I prefer that surgical type approach. My lowest rounds to date are the surgical ones. The ones where I never once felt like I swung hard. To me the big irons ,8 wedges and mallet putters do not fit that type game.

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  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey Members Posts: 397 ✭✭

    I suspect some statistically significant data actually does exist - both within the confines of R&D departments and also within the years of ShotLink data that now exists for those who have access. While MB players may be in the minority on tour, I'd suspect that another minority is playing high-MOI "GI" or "SGI" irons. There's likely enough data out there to make some meaningful correlations between club type and player performance. Again, nothing published. All we get is pure opinion and anecdotes.

  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,205 ✭✭

    There is Iron Byron data and it can be Googled. But what's the point? You either swing with R&T and some sense of connection or you don't. You execute or you don't. Game improvement begins and end at the toes and tips of fingers and most often goes awol between the ears. You can do all of it with newest SGI or your grandpa's Hogan's. I can hit like **** and figure it out w/ MB's but cannot say the same for my tech laden Ti metals. It's obfuscation of reality, a head fake to get all anal about the MOI at the end of a shaft. Might be helping the 'between the ears' thing more than anything, and if so, that's fine. That's part of the real game, the tech not so much.

  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,592 ✭✭

    @Nard_S said:
    There is Iron Byron data and it can be Googled. But what's the point? You either swing with R&T and some sense of connection or you don't. You execute or you don't. Game improvement begins and end at the toes and tips of fingers and most often goes awol between the ears. You can do all of it with newest SGI or your grandpa's Hogan's. I can hit like **** and figure it out w/ MB's but cannot say the same for my tech laden Ti metals. It's obfuscation of reality, a head fake to get all anal about the MOI at the end of a shaft. Might be helping the 'between the ears' thing more than anything, and if so, that's fine. That's part of the real game, the tech not so much.

    No, you're (one of those who) obfuscates reality. The REALITY is that at least 90% of those who play golf either do not have the time, talent, or both, to get that good to where the so called better(?) feedback of blades would DO them any good, if, in fact, they actually DO you any good.

    The REALITY is the benefits of perimeter weighting can NOT be denied. Tennis players played with "blades" in the distant past. Then racket technology allowed them to be built larger, lighter, more forgiving and more powerful, ALL due to perimeter weighting. When the rackets got "too" big they then became useful to only older players who need the additional power of the extra large rackets at the expense of some control. The youngsters didn't need all that power and in fact it was a detriment.

    Although I don't watch (or play) tennis anymore, I'd bet NOT ONE player, of ANY skill level, plays the old (wooden) "blade" racket anymore except for the same reasons some golfers play wood heads and shafts,,,,,, for the novelty/nostalgia of it. And i doubt older rackets are even made anymore. All there are now are mid-sized and over-size rackets.

    As for golf, more and more PROS are moving to player's CBs, presumably the best of both worlds and mirroring the tennis players' move to mid-size. Soon they may have no choice unless they get a custom builder to build them.

    Can't think of a single Tour Pro anymore that uses a blade putter with the sole exception of Corey Pavin still using his "trusty" Bullseye. Anybody (else) wonder why that is ? With a 3 inch to maybe 2 foot backstroke ??? Such a short stroke the pros need forgiveness ????? In a putter ?????

    And who here still plays the SLDR, one of the most unforgiving drivers ever made. Not many I imagine. Wonder how many pros after playing unforgiving drivers ? Not many I imagine.

    Even the WRX "God of Blades" once said "MBs are more workable, CBs are more forgiving".

    Play whatever you want. It's still a semi-free country.


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  • BottleCapBottleCap Members Posts: 1,318 ✭✭

    @nsxguy said:

    @Nard_S said:
    There is Iron Byron data and it can be Googled. But what's the point? You either swing with R&T and some sense of connection or you don't. You execute or you don't. Game improvement begins and end at the toes and tips of fingers and most often goes awol between the ears. You can do all of it with newest SGI or your grandpa's Hogan's. I can hit like **** and figure it out w/ MB's but cannot say the same for my tech laden Ti metals. It's obfuscation of reality, a head fake to get all anal about the MOI at the end of a shaft. Might be helping the 'between the ears' thing more than anything, and if so, that's fine. That's part of the real game, the tech not so much.

    No, you're (one of those who) obfuscates reality. The REALITY is that at least 90% of those who play golf either do not have the time, talent, or both, to get that good to where the so called better(?) feedback of blades would DO them any good, if, in fact, they actually DO you any good.

    The REALITY is the benefits of perimeter weighting can NOT be denied. Tennis players played with "blades" in the distant past. Then racket technology allowed them to be built larger, lighter, more forgiving and more powerful, ALL due to perimeter weighting. When the rackets got "too" big they then became useful to only older players who need the additional power of the extra large rackets at the expense of some control. The youngsters didn't need all that power and in fact it was a detriment.

    Although I don't watch (or play) tennis anymore, I'd bet NOT ONE player, of ANY skill level, plays the old (wooden) "blade" racket anymore except for the same reasons some golfers play wood heads and shafts,,,,,, for the novelty/nostalgia of it. And i doubt older rackets are even made anymore. All there are now are mid-sized and over-size rackets.

    As for golf, more and more PROS are moving to player's CBs, presumably the best of both worlds and mirroring the tennis players' move to mid-size. Soon they may have no choice unless they get a custom builder to build them.

    Can't think of a single Tour Pro anymore that uses a blade putter with the sole exception of Corey Pavin still using his "trusty" Bullseye. Anybody (else) wonder why that is ? With a 3 inch to maybe 2 foot backstroke ??? Such a short stroke the pros need forgiveness ????? In a putter ?????

    And who here still plays the SLDR, one of the most unforgiving drivers ever made. Not many I imagine. Wonder how many pros after playing unforgiving drivers ? Not many I imagine.

    Even the WRX "God of Blades" once said "MBs are more workable, CBs are more forgiving".

    Play whatever you want. It's still a semi-free country.

    I disagree, I think it's the wide soles on game improvement irons that help bad golfers.
    Most bad golfers have an off plane swing and don't even know how to take the club straight back and tend to hit fat shots.
    So wide soles on irons and hybrids help the club from digging in too much.

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  • jshuffjshuff Members Posts: 103 ✭✭

    I suspect after my experiment I’m about to start with a set of raw Callaway Apex MBs that I’ll be pulling the ones longer than a 7 or 8 iron from my bag.

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