Will the college admissions scam hit the Tour PLAYERS?

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  • Ashley SchaefferAshley Schaeffer Members Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    lowheel wrote:


    MtlJeff wrote:



    This whole thing has me questioning everything about my past. Did I gain admission to a lower tier NAIA school just because my dad bought the assistant golf coach two Coors Lights and a Slim Jim in the pro shop? I'll never know . . .




    Crap, lightbulb just went off in my head too....I attended the second most prestigious Montreal university (out of 2). PLUS I was given a bogus athletic position (kicker on football team).



    The pieces are starting to come together




    McGill has football?




    Yup they were just never any good...




    Oh, you just bite your tongue, sir. I happen to know of a fine young kicker who didn't attend McGill, but would have hammered home XPs, had he attended. McGill whiffed, and the rest is history.

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  • No_Catchy_NicknameNo_Catchy_Nickname Kyushu,_JapanMembers Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    MtlJeff wrote:



    This whole thing has me questioning everything about my past. Did I gain admission to a lower tier NAIA school just because my dad bought the assistant golf coach two Coors Lights and a Slim Jim in the pro shop? I'll never know . . .




    Crap, lightbulb just went off in my head too....I attended the second most prestigious Montreal university (out of 2). PLUS I was given a bogus athletic position (kicker on football team).



    The pieces are starting to come together




    American football or soccer ?



    Did that include meals outside the dining hall ?



    Any "tutors " sent up to your room ?




    I'm guessing American Football, because in soccer everyone's a kicker image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
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  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Open Championship! IowaClubWRX Posts: 18,283 ClubWRX
    bscinstnct wrote:


    bscinstnct wrote:



    I honestly still don't get why this is such a big deal and warrants Feds coming in like jackbooted thugs with guns drawn.




    Well, theres bribing people with $MM to break the law.



    So....


    Yeah their regular John Dillingers and Feds should definitely be breaking down doors with guns drawn... Give me a break!




    BDP!



    Was Dillinger the guy who broke out of jail with a "gun" he carved out of soap and blackened with shoe polish? Lol.



    Yeah, I agree the tactics are over done. Prolly to give no warning and prevent destruction of evidence. But also to send a message to other potential hoodlums.




    Lucky he didn't drop it!
  • No_Catchy_NicknameNo_Catchy_Nickname Kyushu,_JapanMembers Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't know if any of you have seen this article:

    https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/operation-varsity-blues-scam-tipster-college-admissions-808418/?ICID=ref_fark



    Seems the scandal was brought to light by a guy under investigation for securities fraud in the hopes of getting a lighter sentence.

    So that's nice.
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  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Open Championship! IowaClubWRX Posts: 18,283 ClubWRX
    Seems like there are never ending outfits purporting to advise/consult on all subjects under the sun. I have no doubt for some parents or particular students or for insight into particular programs there are third party sources that can provide valuable information and advice. I also know I delete/unsubscribe every darn day emails from service providers who just pummel away with their solicitations for services to sell software to do all sorts of things/consulting on things we already know how to do just fine/even some real stretches on "niches" they pretty much create out of whole cloth and try to convince you need them to help you figure out (one actually somehow got through on the phone the other day and I was polite to a fault, but he just couldn't handle my simply saying "I don't care" when he kept giving me these silly reasons why I needed a consultant to figure out how to save and archive deleted public comments to a Facebook page I manage, actually trying to scare me - little fella made me laugh). So, the overgrowth IMO of the folks that carve out existence to convince you things are really harder than they are and you NEED them to me is regrettable part of the internet landscape in particular.



    Just a little rant, lol, and I've seen some college advice companies my puppy could outperform, but again I'm sure there are reputable ones that help folks that need the help.
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Open Championship! IowaClubWRX Posts: 18,283 ClubWRX


    Don't know if any of you have seen this article:

    https://www.rollings.../?ICID=ref_fark



    Seems the scandal was brought to light by a guy under investigation for securities fraud in the hopes of getting a lighter sentence.

    So that's nice.




    LOL, he'll learn a lot more about pump-and-dump shortly.



    Have to think any scheme where you are relying in part on college kids not telling anyone what happened was doomed to fail - surprised it lasted as long as it did.
  • Awsi DoogerAwsi Dooger Members Posts: 4,233 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Does this mean we won't dominate water polo any more?



    Rotten. Now I've got to rely on women's track. Maybe beach volleyball. Maybe Muni He.



    I didn't realize it is now so difficult to get into USC. I sent them a writing sample from all my school papers. On the day I showed up from Miami they knew all about me in the journalism department..."Oh, you're the guy with the humongous writing sample. Here, let me return it to you. You were in before we got to the third article."



    Regarding Phil Mickelson, I don't know any of the details but as I've emphasized here countless times Billy Walters doesn't do anything without a manipulated advantage. I guarantee Walters knows others on all levels and specialties who provide that manipulated advantage.
  • extrastiffextrastiff Members Posts: 910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    nohny noke wrote:

    extrastiff wrote:

    nohny noke wrote:



    I want to know who at the university is collecting all that money? I assume that’s the person in a boatload of trouble.




    I don't think any university admissions people were named in the indictment.



    Collegiate coaches were, however.
    celebrities were purposefully "chosen" imo as scapegoats so we would all be distracted from the fact that universities promote/accept these practices, both illegally, as well as through legacy institutions.



    The scam has hit the tour, money creates opportunity for many college golfers. But I doubt this "scam" will spread... to many institutions will fight to contain it




    This is conjecture. Sources?


    For sure conjecture.That's why i included "imo."

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  • md1mmd1m Members Posts: 794 ✭✭✭✭✭
    J13 wrote:


    Phil getting ahead of this is a smart thing to do. I wonder if Kuchar is as well.......no wait he's too cheap image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' /> With that said, whoever is guilty I hope they get a nice stint in jail. The odds are already stacked against the majority of kids in this country and now this confirmation of a rigged system just proves what most already knew. I love that these things are coming to light. Karma is a b****




    I heard a rumor Kuchar paid $5,000 to get his kids into a great college in Mexico. Or maybe I'm getting all my stories mixed up image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
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  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭✭


    You seem to think it's simply a matter of reading the forms and filling in the answers.



    If it was, there wouldn't be a thousand businesses that have sprung up to help people do it more successfully.



    I don't think it's right - I actually think it's become quite bizarre - but I also know that it is what.... it is.



    How does the average joe (with some sort of successful income and busy life) have the time to learn about what to say on a Harvard application but never on a Yale or Stanford?



    What's the best angle for Cornell? Duke? Dartmouth?



    You'd think they'd all "like" the same things.... but they don't. And knowing the right answers (for this year) makes a difference.


    No doubt it is what it is.



    I think part of the issue is Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, Dartmouth, etc, etc is a very long list and they are all very different (I don't think they all want to hear the same thing). Maybe some people really don't know what's right for them, but I would argue that most people need to have some idea of what they want to do and what type of school (or program/major) is right for them. This would help narrow down the number of things you need to be focused on. It's not hard to write a good essay, know how to answer interview questions, and find out what they are looking for IF its a place that you are truly interested in going to. It becomes a pain when you are just casting out 10 applications because I want to go to "X Class of Schools," but really have no clue what they do or are known for.



    People have time for and figure out what cell phone to buy, what car to buy, and where to buy a house (which also involves schools) largely without the help of a service like this. Any many people that aren't connected get jobs the same way.



    I think Hawkeye's post is correct. The industry exists largely because there is a bunch of fear mongering convincing people that they are "missing out." Then as parents you hear that Johnny, Sally, and Jenny's parents are using this service so you feel you need to do it too (who wants to disadvantage or screw their children?).



    No doubt college applications and enrollments are up, but the process worked just fine before these service providers came around and it would still be working just fine if they never existed. But that's capitalism and it's fine that they exist.
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  • Steele47Steele47 Members Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Very expensive to churn out lemmings in lock step these days.
  • bullie76bullie76 Members Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    agolf1 wrote:

    bscinstnct wrote:



    I honestly still don't get why this is such a big deal and warrants Feds coming in like jackbooted thugs with guns drawn.




    Well, theres bribing people with $MM to break the law.



    So....


    Based on his other comments, my guess is he's a "platinum member" of these service providers. He's not just finding out that certain things are against the law.




    I would love to know what he paid for his membership. If he paid $500k or some other absurd figure, It's going to be hard to convince anyone he didn't know what he was paying for. I'm guessing this is going to get ugly or at the very least very embarrassing before all said and done.
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  • Schley Schley Love ya don't tell ya enough! Kingdom of Saudi ArabiaMembers Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    College admission decisions are left up to the universities and are a black box, with the committees having tremendous power. However, many schools go to great lengths for checks and balances and rightly so. Especially at public universities as taxpayer dollars are funding those institutions.



    Getting into a private university with legal means is no secret and has been going on and continue to do so for years to come. https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/success/college-admissions-parents/index.html



    Aside from the fraud of SAT/ACT test manipulation and false athletic credentials, however the real fraud here is at the public universities which are public entities. The private universities can accept legacy children of grads or big donors so I think those parents who paid millions for this falsifying did so without having to necessarily having to.



    Public universities need to be held accountable for taxpayer money is being utilized and they are for the residents of that state primarily. Private entities are private and have more autonomy (although can't participate in fraud as they have in this case.)
  • lumberman2462lumberman2462 Members Posts: 5,340 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Talked to a friend that used an admissions consult for his daughter. Amazing how sophisticated the services. $7500.00 and whatever application fees for each school you apply.



    His daughter was straight As but test scores were good but not top level. 28 ACT and 1400s SAT. Anyway, these consultants edited/changed applications - not lying just consulted on what to emphasize and what to leave out. Prepped for tests etc...



    But apparently they had contacts at every school. She got in her first choice and was accepted at 2 of the 3 she applied. He seems to think it was worth it.



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  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭✭


    Talked to a friend that used an admissions consult for his daughter. Amazing how sophisticated the services. $7500.00 and whatever application fees for each school you apply.



    His daughter was straight As but test scores were good but not top level. 28 ACT and 1400s SAT. Anyway, these consultants edited/changed applications - not lying just consulted on what to emphasize and what to leave out. Prepped for tests etc...



    But apparently they had contacts at every school. She got in her first choice and was accepted at 2 of the 3 she applied. He seems to think it was worth it.


    That's good that it worked out for them. As you note, the test scores are good, but depending on the schools they are just in the range of "acceptable (not automatically excluded) but need a lot of other good points to standout."



    But I wonder how much of the service is helped the application and benefited from the random luck (with odds slightly improved) vs. a direct buddy system? Either way, not implying anything negative about your friend.
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  • lumberman2462lumberman2462 Members Posts: 5,340 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    agolf1 wrote:



    Talked to a friend that used an admissions consult for his daughter. Amazing how sophisticated the services. $7500.00 and whatever application fees for each school you apply.



    His daughter was straight As but test scores were good but not top level. 28 ACT and 1400s SAT. Anyway, these consultants edited/changed applications - not lying just consulted on what to emphasize and what to leave out. Prepped for tests etc...



    But apparently they had contacts at every school. She got in her first choice and was accepted at 2 of the 3 she applied. He seems to think it was worth it.


    That's good that it worked out for them. As you note, the test scores are good, but depending on the schools they are just in the range of "acceptable (not automatically excluded) but need a lot of other good points to standout."



    But I wonder how much of the service is helped the application and benefited from the random luck (with odds slightly improved) vs. a direct buddy system? Either way, not implying anything negative about your friend.




    The test prep worked. She bumped 100 points on the SAT and 2 or 3 on ACT. But that could also be helped by taking as a Senior vs Junior.
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  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    agolf1 wrote:



    Talked to a friend that used an admissions consult for his daughter. Amazing how sophisticated the services. $7500.00 and whatever application fees for each school you apply.



    His daughter was straight As but test scores were good but not top level. 28 ACT and 1400s SAT. Anyway, these consultants edited/changed applications - not lying just consulted on what to emphasize and what to leave out. Prepped for tests etc...



    But apparently they had contacts at every school. She got in her first choice and was accepted at 2 of the 3 she applied. He seems to think it was worth it.


    That's good that it worked out for them. As you note, the test scores are good, but depending on the schools they are just in the range of "acceptable (not automatically excluded) but need a lot of other good points to standout."



    But I wonder how much of the service is helped the application and benefited from the random luck (with odds slightly improved) vs. a direct buddy system? Either way, not implying anything negative about your friend.




    The test prep worked. She bumped 100 points on the SAT and 2 or 3 on ACT. But that could also be helped by taking as a Senior vs Junior.


    The test prep is the component I question the least. It's existed for a long time, and while it can theoretically be done by reading some books, it is not exactly the same stuff students do in school or common sense, so probably harder to do oneself. These are also tests that can be gamed a bit and you definitely benefit from repetition.



    Would be interesting to know what the implied hourly rate is for test training, edit essays, etc.
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  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Open Championship! IowaClubWRX Posts: 18,283 ClubWRX

    agolf1 wrote:



    Talked to a friend that used an admissions consult for his daughter. Amazing how sophisticated the services. $7500.00 and whatever application fees for each school you apply.



    His daughter was straight As but test scores were good but not top level. 28 ACT and 1400s SAT. Anyway, these consultants edited/changed applications - not lying just consulted on what to emphasize and what to leave out. Prepped for tests etc...



    But apparently they had contacts at every school. She got in her first choice and was accepted at 2 of the 3 she applied. He seems to think it was worth it.


    That's good that it worked out for them. As you note, the test scores are good, but depending on the schools they are just in the range of "acceptable (not automatically excluded) but need a lot of other good points to standout."



    But I wonder how much of the service is helped the application and benefited from the random luck (with odds slightly improved) vs. a direct buddy system? Either way, not implying anything negative about your friend.




    The test prep worked. She bumped 100 points on the SAT and 2 or 3 on ACT. But that could also be helped by taking as a Senior vs Junior.




    Many kids take the ACT several times before the “official” one - good practice.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,624 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    as much as i hate to agree with him.. The governor of California just blew the doors off this in my opinion on the cbs early show by saying that this is small potatoes compared to the LEGAL way this happens every day with Legacy donors etc ...Donating $100mil to get a building named after you, all the while with expectations that your grandchild will get a "call back" and later acceptance . I see no real difference at the root ... And he said same... Said this needs a deeper dive to stop all the donation related acceptance... I agree . fix it all or shut up.
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  • KonkliferKonklifer Thinkin' of a master plan... Members Posts: 7,931 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Hawkeye77 wrote:

    NevinW wrote:


    When will the obligatory "where there is smoke the is fire" comment show up?




    Already has, several times from a few, lol.



    Anyway, mostly for the benefit of the OP and those chirpers, again, here is the list, published previously, it's all the smoke and all the fire and no Tour members I can find. Stupid thread.



    https://www.justice....-bribery-scheme




    He helped over 750 families. You could have just read this the other day: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/college-cheating-mastermind-says-he-helped-nearly-800-families-admissions-n982666



    Stupid comment.
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  • Anchor44Anchor44 Members Posts: 905 ✭✭✭✭✭
    MtlJeff wrote:


    I suppose it's possible or even likely Phil did nothing wrong and is getting ahead of this. Because it could have come out eventually that he used him and if he hadn't denounced this first it would maybe be a presumed guilty thing


    So you think Phil didn't have to pay anything for this service?
  • Bad9Bad9 Members Posts: 4,300 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Hawkeye77 wrote:


    Yep, the idea the kids didn't know won't hold much as an argument, especially the fake athletes and the ones who faked their disabilities, and on and on.




    I guess I don’t get as outraged as some since there is such an abundance of “students” attending college just to bide their time until the NFL or NBA. They’re no more students than Loughlins daughter is an athlete.



    The money is just com8ng from a different source. TV money paid for athletic programs, or TV money paid by an actress mom.




    I think the difference is the athletic money is going to the schools whereas the actress mom is going to corrupt officials. Not agreeing or disagreeing with either.
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  • KonkliferKonklifer Thinkin' of a master plan... Members Posts: 7,931 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Hawkeye77 wrote:

    Konklifer wrote:




    Here are the names, you could have read them yesterday. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/investigations-college-admissions-and-testing-bribery-scheme



    Let me know which ones are the Tour players.




    I read it already, but thanks. He helped 761 families. Here is his admission. You could have read it a couple days ago: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/college-cheating-mastermind-says-he-helped-nearly-800-families-admissions-n982666



    But, by your logic, all investigation ceases as soon as charges are filed. Got it.



    I asked if it will affect tour players based on Phil's comment. I never said any were involved. Perhaps re-read my OP to refresh your memory.



    I have nothing against Phil, but he brought it up. Show me a statement from Vaughn Taylor on the subject, and I'll edit my original post just for you.
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  • Couples1Couples1 Members Posts: 150
    edited Mar 15, 2019 9:59am #145
    Let's see Phil hated taxes as he stated ... a true good sign ( college scam used as tax deduction which will nail them)

    Known for gambling addiction .. not good sign

    Went into business with convicted for stock fraud Billy Walters ... a horrible sign

    Now mentions this scam ... a true sign, he is a cheat



    Sure Phil, you didn't know a thing about this guy LOL
  • Oliver KlozoffOliver Klozoff Members Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 9:59am #146
    Honestly this is no big deal for private colleges. They can take whoever they want. They will pay if you can't afford to go and are smart. They will get kids in the door if their parents have money to donate to the school endowment. USC's endowment is $5.5 Billion. They don't need to charge a penny for anyone to attend. All this is really doing is getting the SATs up for borderline test score rich kids, so that when the stats come out in US News the average SAT looks great. And if they pay enough maybe their kid gets to be on a sports team.



    Fact - if you have $500k+ in loose change to give to a college then your kids probably won't even need a real job. We aren't talking the tuition here. We are talking loose change to donate, then pay the tuition. They get some investment gig from a friend in private equity, and as long as they are adequate nobody will be the wiser.



    Now when this happens at publicly funded schools, big issue.
  • Schley Schley Love ya don't tell ya enough! Kingdom of Saudi ArabiaMembers Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭✭✭✭


    as much as i hate to agree with him.. The governor of California just blew the doors off this in my opinion on the cbs early show by saying that this is small potatoes compared to the LEGAL way this happens every day with Legacy donors etc ...Donating $100mil to get a building named after you, all the while with expectations that your grandchild will get a "call back" and later acceptance . I see no real difference at the root ... And he said same... Said this needs a deeper dive to stop all the donation related acceptance... I agree . fix it all or shut up.


    Who cares really if people are outraged over rich kids getting into universities. That is like saying hot chicks attract rich guys. It's obvious.



    The hardest part about an elite university is GETTING IN, not graduating. I work in this area and if all these kids who got admitted couldn't cut the mustard they wouldn't have graduated, but the fact is that the rigor of a bachelors degree (non-technical like engineering) is not appreciably higher at public university over an Ivy League. Thus, these kids graduate and make their way in the world as an alumnus. The real trick is just getting in and people can and do go to great lengths, because they know they can graduate once in, but the hard part is getting in.
  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Columbus, OHMembers Posts: 7,253 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Although it’s all totally disgusting, part of me does love the creativity of getting the one kid in on a crew scholarship when they’ve never even held an oar.



    Just the incredible audacity of it is so revoltingly impressive.
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  • Couples1Couples1 Members Posts: 150


    Honestly this is no big deal for private colleges. They can take whoever they want. They will pay if you can't afford to go and are smart. They will get kids in the door if their parents have money to donate to the school endowment. USC's endowment is $5.5 Billion. They don't need to charge a penny for anyone to attend. All this is really doing is getting the SATs up for borderline test score rich kids, so that when the stats come out in US News the average SAT looks great. And if they pay enough maybe their kid gets to be on a sports team.



    Fact - if you have $500k+ in loose change to give to a college then your kids probably won't even need a real job. We aren't talking the tuition here. We are talking loose change to donate, then pay the tuition. They get some investment gig from a friend in private equity, and as long as they are adequate nobody will be the wiser.



    Now when this happens at publicly funded schools, big issue.


    Agree ... but cannot deduct a known scam as taxable income. This will bury them.
  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5 Members Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Of course the real crime in all this is academia convincing students that some useless degree like art history, music or some other liberal arts degree etc is worth $60k per year. Then the student is under a mountain of debt without being given a trade that will provide a positive ROI on their education.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,624 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Schley wrote:



    as much as i hate to agree with him.. The governor of California just blew the doors off this in my opinion on the cbs early show by saying that this is small potatoes compared to the LEGAL way this happens every day with Legacy donors etc ...Donating $100mil to get a building named after you, all the while with expectations that your grandchild will get a "call back" and later acceptance . I see no real difference at the root ... And he said same... Said this needs a deeper dive to stop all the donation related acceptance... I agree . fix it all or shut up.


    Who cares really if people are outraged over rich kids getting into universities. That is like saying hot chicks attract rich guys. It's obvious.



    The hardest part about an elite university is GETTING IN, not graduating. I work in this area and if all these kids who got admitted couldn't cut the mustard they wouldn't have graduated, but the fact is that the rigor of a bachelors degree (non-technical like engineering) is not appreciably higher at public university over an Ivy League. Thus, these kids graduate and make their way in the world as an alumnus. The real trick is just getting in and people can and do go to great lengths, because they know they can graduate once in, but the hard part is getting in.




    Yep. I agree here. And the implications to the leaders of everything is the issue. Maybe not because they get in through connections. But because it’s apparently not very hard to graduate. But then again. It’s hard to flunk a kid who’s family is paying all that Money for tuition if that family has connections. The problem is money. Admission and graduation should be on grades and merit alone.







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