Koepka undergoes stem cell procedure on knee

[Cwing]

How long before some accuse him for using the other “s” word?

[straightshot7]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @straightshot7 said:

> > On a side note, I think steam cell treatment will be a very effective and popular procedure 10-20 years from now.

> >

> > If you do a little research you'll see some facilities/doctors are using the stem cells from the umbilical cord, which seems to be very effective. As with other procedures, top athletes are often the first to explore such treatments.

> >

> > Right now stem cell treatment isn't totally accepted in the U.S. medical world and is generally expensive/not covered by insurance. But, someday soon it could be the best way by far to restore injuries. Look it up.

> >

> >

>

> Alternative view (I'm not up on this at all but clearly seems a disagreement on this)

>

> https://khn.org/news/elite-hospitals-plunge-into-unproven-stem-cell-treatments/

>

> "‘Expensive Placebos’

>

> While hospital-based stem cell treatments may be legal, there’s no strong evidence they work, said Leigh Turner, an associate professor at the University of Minnesota’s Center for Bioethics who has published a series of articles describing the size and dynamics of the stem cell market.

>

> “FDA approval isn’t needed and physicians can claim they aren’t violating federal regulations,” Turner said. “But just because something is legal doesn’t make it ethical.”

>

> For doctors and hospitals, stem cells are easy money, Turner said. Patients typically pay more than $700 a treatment for platelets and up to $5,000 for fat and bone marrow injections. As a bonus, doctors don’t have to wrangle with insurance companies, which view the procedures as experimental and largely don’t cover them."

 

It's not a hoax. It's just in its infancy as far as clinical trials. The FDA won't get behind something that hasn't been through clinical trials.

 

Here's a government website that seems pretty supportive: https://stemcells.nih.gov/info/faqs.htm

 

There are many people that have given testimonials. Here are some: https://www.cellmedicine.com/stem-cell-therapy/patient-stories/autism-patient-stories/

[MountainGoat]

FDA has no regulatory authority over stem cells. They don’t regulate medical practice, only medical products distributed in interstate commerce.

[Shilgy]

> @munichop said:

> This is another story that reinforces to me the idea that Tiger's biggest legacy will be shortening golf careers. These guys are pushing the limits of their bodies to play bomb and gouge golf and their bodies are breaking down. Rory had back issues, JT has wrist issues, Brooks and Dustin with knee problems; Rose, Day- the list keeps growing. They may all return to form but it is hard to believe something won't be compromised in their swings down the road. Live by the long ball but not as long as you hope.

 

Are they pushing the limits??

https://www.golf.com/instruction/driving/2019/09/10/tony-finau-viral-video-golf-swing/

 

[puttfordoux]

Would the top players be going 'all out' if they had to play more often? Tiger may have shortened golf careers but have made those careers much more lucrative in the process. And in Koepka's case allowing him to try a procedure that most likely he had to pay out of pocket.

[Ferguson]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @straightshot7 said:

> > On a side note, I think steam cell treatment will be a very effective and popular procedure 10-20 years from now.

> >

> > If you do a little research you'll see some facilities/doctors are using the stem cells from the umbilical cord, which seems to be very effective. As with other procedures, top athletes are often the first to explore such treatments.

> >

> > Right now stem cell treatment isn't totally accepted in the U.S. medical world and is generally expensive/not covered by insurance. But, someday soon it could be the best way by far to restore injuries. Look it up.

> >

> >

>

> Alternative view (I'm not up on this at all but clearly seems a disagreement on this)

>

> https://khn.org/news/elite-hospitals-plunge-into-unproven-stem-cell-treatments/

>

> "‘Expensive Placebos’

>

> While hospital-based stem cell treatments may be legal, there’s no strong evidence they work, said Leigh Turner, an associate professor at the University of Minnesota’s Center for Bioethics who has published a series of articles describing the size and dynamics of the stem cell market.

>

> “FDA approval isn’t needed and physicians can claim they aren’t violating federal regulations,” Turner said. “But just because something is legal doesn’t make it ethical.”

>

> For doctors and hospitals, stem cells are easy money, Turner said. Patients typically pay more than $700 a treatment for platelets and up to $5,000 for fat and bone marrow injections. As a bonus, doctors don’t have to wrangle with insurance companies, which view the procedures as experimental and largely don’t cover them."

 

 

See the highlighted section. I believe Johnny Miller said the same words describing Bruce Koepka after one of his US Open wins.

 

 

 

 

[pinhigh27]

> @straightshot7 said:

> On a side note, I think steam cell treatment will be a very effective and popular procedure 10-20 years from now.

>

> If you do a little research you'll see some facilities/doctors are using the stem cells from the umbilical cord, which seems to be very effective. As with other procedures, top athletes are often the first to explore such treatments.

>

> Right now stem cell treatment isn't totally accepted in the U.S. medical world and is generally expensive/not covered by insurance. But, someday soon it could be the best way by far to restore injuries. Look it up.

>

>

 

Very effective? It's not accepted because there's no data that shows it works.

 

These guys wear magnetic bracelets. Them doing something doesn't prove it works at all.

 

Early research says it's placebo and shows no benefit compared to injecting saline.

[pinhigh27]

> @straightshot7 said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > On a side note, I think steam cell treatment will be a very effective and popular procedure 10-20 years from now.

> > >

> > > If you do a little research you'll see some facilities/doctors are using the stem cells from the umbilical cord, which seems to be very effective. As with other procedures, top athletes are often the first to explore such treatments.

> > >

> > > Right now stem cell treatment isn't totally accepted in the U.S. medical world and is generally expensive/not covered by insurance. But, someday soon it could be the best way by far to restore injuries. Look it up.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Alternative view (I'm not up on this at all but clearly seems a disagreement on this)

> >

> > https://khn.org/news/elite-hospitals-plunge-into-unproven-stem-cell-treatments/

> >

> > "‘Expensive Placebos’

> >

> > While hospital-based stem cell treatments may be legal, there’s no strong evidence they work, said Leigh Turner, an associate professor at the University of Minnesota’s Center for Bioethics who has published a series of articles describing the size and dynamics of the stem cell market.

> >

> > “FDA approval isn’t needed and physicians can claim they aren’t violating federal regulations,” Turner said. “But just because something is legal doesn’t make it ethical.”

> >

> > For doctors and hospitals, stem cells are easy money, Turner said. Patients typically pay more than $700 a treatment for platelets and up to $5,000 for fat and bone marrow injections. As a bonus, doctors don’t have to wrangle with insurance companies, which view the procedures as experimental and largely don’t cover them."

>

> It's not a hoax. It's just in its infancy as far as clinical trials. The FDA won't get behind something that hasn't been through clinical trials.

>

> Here's a government website that seems pretty supportive: https://stemcells.nih.gov/info/faqs.htm

>

> There are many people that have given testimonials. Here are some: https://www.cellmedicine.com/stem-cell-therapy/patient-stories/autism-patient-stories/

 

Because parents of autistic kids clinging for any shred of hope or improvement in their kid ( and thus extemely biased towards placebo) are comparable to knee injections. /s

[bladehunter]

Are these stem cells pulled from other areas of his body and injected in to the knee ?

[J13]

> @bladehunter said:

> Are these stem cells pulled from other areas of his body and injected in to the knee ?

 

Yes like the spine. Every new procedure is questioned (as it should) on the efficacy. This is how medicine has always worked and why doctors "practice" medicine. PRP treatment is a little further down the road but on the same path as Stem Cell.

[dlygrisse]

I've looked into have stem cell injections, and I have some family members who have had it done. In short, I think it works for some things, like some soft tissue injuries, but not others, like certain back injuries or circulatory issues. Insurance doesn't usually cover these treatments for various reasons, which I don't need to get into here.... I will say that the people often doing the injections are often over promising and under delivering. They sell it as a miracle cure for more things than it will be effective for. I'm not saying it wont do some good in certain situations, but buyer beware, do research, and get 2nd opinions before they get you to pay a good chunk of money out of pocket.

 

 

[Ferguson]

> @dlygrisse said:

> I've looked into have stem cell injections, and I have some family members who have had it done. In short, I think it works for some things, like some soft tissue injuries, but not others, like certain back injuries or circulatory issues. Insurance doesn't usually cover these treatments for various reasons, which I don't need to get into here.... I will say that the people often doing the injections are often over promising and under delivering. They sell it as a miracle cure for more things than it will be effective for. I'm not saying it wont do some good in certain situations, but buyer beware, do research, and get 2nd opinions before they get you to pay a good chunk of money out of pocket.

>

>

 

 

Case in point (4 reasons to skeptical):

 

1. Giant Air Pocket in that syringe

2. A child's art project, "STEM CELLS ARE FUN"

3. That's a lot of blood

4. That alligator skin looks like Tom Watson's neck - this "doctor" is on the golf course too much

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[golfgirlrobin]

> @Cwing said:

> How long before some accuse him for using the other “s” word?

 

After the ESPN Body Issue, I don’t think he needs to worry about that.

 

 

[ExTrumpet]

> @thevaporz said:

> In his press conference yesterday he was asked how he felt about losing POY award to Rory and he said something like, "I don't care about awards, only trophies. It would've been nice but I'm out here to win. Lebron only won four MVP titles but I'm pretty sure he's been the best player almost every year."

 

Same dude that complained that he wasn't on the US Open promo? Ok...

[lowheel]

> @Ferguson said:

> There were just as many injuries in the past. Saying these guys are more prone or less prone to injury due to their tagged "physicality" is hogwash.

> It's the modern golf swing. Too much torque on all the wrong body parts.

>

>

> One would think that better equipment with a modern swing would require "less effort" to get better results, therefore resulting in fewer injuries........a juxtaposition I suppose?

>

>

 

i think modern medicine has allowed alot of these guys to recover and keep playing. Look at how many guys in the 80s got hurt and were never the same and never came back... now back injuries shoulders knees are almost routinely treated and player resumes career like it never happened

[scotee]

My wife had stem cell and PRP therapy on her shoulder 6 months ago and is doing very well. She had been in pain for about a year and the MRI showed some arthritis. She researched a place in Spokane that takes the patients cells from bone marrow in the hip and processes them for injection. They gave no guarantee but she is much better. They said it can take a year to see how it works.

 

I just retired from dentistry and am skeptical of most “fringe” medicine but i have used PRP and PRF in jaw grafting and implant placement with good results. My neurosurgeon friend uses PRP in surgery but thinks stem cell for joints is “snake oil”. Surgery is not always the answer either and she was ready to try this to avoid that. Her faith based cost sharing plan paid for most of it. Time will tell.

[Ferguson]

I remain skeptical.

[Steele47]

Wow. I'm a platinum tee guy. Groovy.

[gsrjc]

Heard Brooks withdrew from CJ cup due to a knee injury. Guess the treatment didn’t work or perhaps his knee has a bigger issue than noted. Somewhere I thought I read he had a partially torn patella tendon so does that mean his knee cap could dislocate?

[idrive]

> @gsrjc said:

> Heard Brooks withdrew from CJ cup due to a knee injury. Guess the** treatment didn’t work** or perhaps his knee has a bigger issue than noted. Somewhere I thought I read he had a partially torn patella tendon so does that mean his knee cap could dislocate?

 

I think BK will tell you it worked great, as an excuse to withdraw after getting his butt kicked by everyone, including his little brother.

 

By the end of the 2020 Fedex season BK won't even be in the top 10 OWGR. No top 10's in any of the Majors...

 

 

[J13]

> @idrive said:

> > @gsrjc said:

> > Heard Brooks withdrew from CJ cup due to a knee injury. Guess the** treatment didn’t work** or perhaps his knee has a bigger issue than noted. Somewhere I thought I read he had a partially torn patella tendon so does that mean his knee cap could dislocate?

>

> I think BK will tell you it worked great, as an excuse to withdraw after getting his butt kicked by everyone, including his little brother.

>

> By the end of the 2020 Fedex season BK won't even be in the top 10 OWGR. No top 10's in any of the Majors...

>

>

 

If he's out with knee issues yes that will happen. If he's playing and healthy, not a chance.

[Krt22]

> @Ferguson said:

> I remain skeptical.

 

For all stem cell use?

[SirFuego]

> @gsrjc said:

> Heard Brooks withdrew from CJ cup due to a knee injury. Guess the treatment didn’t work or perhaps his knee has a bigger issue than noted. Somewhere I thought I read he had a partially torn patella tendon so does that mean his knee cap could dislocate?

 

Well he did say that he slipped on wet concrete. Not sure if any type of knee treatment would have helped that.

[MountainGoat]

Has he said what the medical issue actually is?

[BIG STU]

> @justasgood said:

> > @Nessism said:

> > > @justasgood said:

> > > Wusssy.........

> >

> > I was in a motorcycle accident in 2006 and my RH knee got busted up (among other things.) Got transported to the hospital and the staff there kept asking me what hurt and to rate my pain from 1 to 10, but I was struggling with the rating system for lack of reference. After a while a doctor came in with a horse syringe filled with this fluorescent yellow liquid and jabbed it into my knee and started injected. Holy ****, that hurt! I told the doctors that I now understand what a 10 feels like.

>

>

> I had knee surgery and contracted a Staphylococcus infection deep in my knee joint. I kept complaining to my ortho and insisting something was wrong. By the time I started running a 102+ fever and was nearly unconscious, he agreed to “drain” my knee and send the “blood” out for analysis. The size of the needle and syringe used scared the crap outta me, but the green infectious goop that he struggled to pull outta my knee and the pain associated with it nearly rendered me unconscious.

>

> Needless to say by the time I got home, my wife had been informed to get me to the emergency room ASAP.

>

> I went from car, to wheelchair to surgery with a Spinal immediately.

>

> Spent 5 days drifting in and out of Morphine induced sleep and and another 2 1/2 months of Vancomycin drip into my pic line.

>

> No soft tissue left in my right knee, but hey if stem cell injection would help regenerate any of the lost tissue, I’m in and would gladly deal with the discomfort associated.

 

I think that is what happened to Fred Funk a few years back when he had knee replacement surgery

[BIG STU]

> @Ferguson said:

> There were just as many injuries in the past. Saying these guys are more prone or less prone to injury due to their tagged "physicality" is hogwash.

> It's the modern golf swing. Too much torque on all the wrong body parts.

>

>

> One would think that better equipment with a modern swing would require "less effort" to get better results, therefore resulting in fewer injuries........a juxtaposition I suppose?

>

>

 

You nailed it dead on there Fergie---- Too much torque on the wrong body parts. My old man in addition to being a club pro was also a certified athletic trainer. when I was growing up the reverse c was the rage. He warned me against it. He also showed me why. Looking back all the reverse c players had back problems later in life except 1 and that is Colin Montgomerie. But he swings so smooth and not violently I think that is why. Even Lee Trevino commented one night on Tiger snapping that left knee right after he got hurt in that US Open he won over Rocco. The one that really scares me now is Lexi Thompson her swing is so violent. I feel she will have back problems down the line. I hope she don't but just saying

[MountainGoat]

> @MountainGoat said:

> Has he said what the medical issue actually is?

 

Anybody? What's he trying to fix?

[J13]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> > There were just as many injuries in the past. Saying these guys are more prone or less prone to injury due to their tagged "physicality" is hogwash.

> > It's the modern golf swing. Too much torque on all the wrong body parts.

> >

> >

> > One would think that better equipment with a modern swing would require "less effort" to get better results, therefore resulting in fewer injuries........a juxtaposition I suppose?

> >

> >

>

> You nailed it dead on there Fergie---- Too much torque on the wrong body parts. My old man in addition to being a club pro was also a certified athletic trainer. when I was growing up the reverse c was the rage. He warned me against it. He also showed me why. Looking back all the reverse c players had back problems later in life except 1 and that is Colin Montgomerie. But he swings so smooth and not violently I think that is why. Even Lee Trevino commented one night on Tiger snapping that left knee right after he got hurt in that US Open he won over Rocco. The one that really scares me now is Lexi Thompson her swing is so violent. I feel she will have back problems down the line. I hope she don't but just saying

 

Distance is king in today's game. As a result, guys are chasing it to be competitive which absolutely puts more stress on the joints. For every action, there is a reaction.

[MountainGoat]

> @MountainGoat said:

> > @MountainGoat said:

> > Has he said what the medical issue actually is?

>

> Anybody? What's he trying to fix?

 

Since stem cell injections are generally used to treat osteoarthritis, I guess we can assume he's trying to treat OA in his knee. If that's the case, then this sounds exceptionally serious and potentially career ending. The stem cell injections might work for a while but probably won't. Data is somewhat supportive, but it's almost entirely anecdotal and, hence, untrustworthy. Absent successful injection, surgery is the only option and joint replacement most likely. If it's the latter, he's done...at least until the senior tour.

 

[Ferguson]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> > I remain skeptical.

>

> For all stem cell use?

 

 

As per Bruce's procedure.