I think he was just speaking generally about a recent practice. The CK line was nicely separated between Pro and non-Pro, but other lines like the second generation +PLUS series, a big chunk of the Kuro Kage line's history (minus the XT and XD), and now the AV Blue have been following the more confusing "TX is the premium product and all other subflexes are the cheaper version" pattern. The same is true within Aldila which Mitsubishi now owns as well.
Exactly. People so disappointed they can't get tour serial number clubs. You can't get them because you're not on tour. Not even teaching pro on staff. Will you even hit a tour club better? Could they just be using a TC serial to track the tour clubs? Sure TC clubs are probably tested for tighter tolerances, but amateurs are not going to notice the 2 yards. If it's 10 or more performing worse, you're welcome to take it back for an exchange.
It's just a hobby if you really want tour issue clubs fit for you, then try to pass the PAT and become a teaching pro at least. I don't know if they get tour issue clubs, but at least something close.
Kuro Kage DC Line
Tensei AV line
I rest my case
Just scored a tour issue tensei av white 85 for my 3 wood.
While I imagine some people do feel that way from a "fantasy" perspective, I think it is more a question of perceived value. When someone is shelling out $400+ on a club, they want to feel like they are getting their money's worth, and there is still that persistent perception that "the tour stuff is nothing like the retail stuff etc etc". Callaway did not do themselves any favors here either when a bunch of alternate diamond versions of the Epic Flash started popping up which likely felt a bit disingenuous to some people.
Why does it matter what people want to buy with their own money? In this day and age it’s mostly about knowing the exact specs of the head, and there are specific shape/size heads that were made for tour - again, why does it matter that people prefer a different look/sound/feel? Passing the PAT has nothing to with any of it.
Guess I have to get one now.
Out of curiosity, what is the difference in the TC club from a TA retail available club?
If they buy without getting fit they are taking a crapshoot and that’s on them and not the brand. and if they get fit and aren’t 100% sure and still buy again it’s on them.
I have absolutely no problem with what people want to spend their money or how they want to spend it. It's the sense of entitlement that people have. Like Callaway or Taylormade or Titleist owe it to the masses to have the very same exact driver that a top 10 player in the world who's won 4 majors in 3 years. Same with the Shaft companies. The whole "what is DJ really playing in his driver because you need to sell me one" conversation. It's exhausting and I'll lay good money 99% of the folks that want one can't hit it anyways and then it shows up on BST with the headline "Come get Brook's Driver" with the details being "I gave it a go, this driver is a BEAST, it just doesn't fit my game" Yeah, no $h!t Sherlock but that person spent months badgering the boards about it... it's exhausting and waste of people's time who have to come on here and sift through this crap just to read the information they want.
Rant over, that felt good to get that off my chest.
I completely agree with that, and i'm pretty sure I made that exact argument in one of the recent threads about the extra Titleist releases, but I think my initial point still stands. It stops being about performance and starts being about perceived product quality and marketing honesty. Some people aren't going to care about that, and if it performs then it performs. But others are going to feel slighted if they find out that all tour guys are playing a version that sounds better/different or has what could be considered a more pleasing head shape or whatever. I don't personally care about those things, but others will, fitting or not.
See Valtiels response above on why people are going to feel slighted. It’s similar to when the G400 Max was released a few months after Ping advertised the G400 line. Yes, there’s always going to be new releases, but once you get burned once, you may not be so willing to take a chance the next year and the company ends up cannibalizing its own product line. On a forum that is skewed almost completely toward equipment, you’re going to have different groups with different motivations and likes/dislikes for the equipment they use, and they’re going to want to discuss it with like-minded people. If you don’t want to read those opinions then just don’t read them, or put those folks on ignore.
Valtiel & t4t3r, I think we're drawing a very thin red line here because I do agree with both of you. The side I'm disputing is how some folks think it's owed to them or they deserve this very specialized equipment and the information that comes with that specialized equipment. I don't think I need to hammer home more examples because I know that you gentlemen have been on here long enough to know the kind of person I'm talking about. And to your point t4t3r about ignoring posts, if I did that I probably wouldn't see 90% of the posts here... I'm here to see some cool stuff, get some information on things I CAN get my hands on and have some good discussions about golf in general. Not the babbling, entitlement I read on every other post in this sub forum. It's cool to see Brook's driver, not the 30 some posts of people who think they deserve to have one, demand to have one and have Callaway release every single spec of Brooks' said driver. IF it does get released, cool. But I'm not here demanding or feel I'm deserving of said information.
Now... Freddy Couples's bag or Migual Angel Jimenez's bag, I can definitely get behind checking those out! Stricker's bag was awesome!
Where? I don't see it!
Don't see any diamonds.
So you’re the one who bought it on eBay!? I saw it last night and told myself if it was still there tonight I’d buy it since I really don’t need more stuff lol so my wallet thanks you
Brooks was trying the Triple Diamond Maverik SZ but i'm hearing he will be in a SIM next tourney. Keep in mind the winter is their testing season so lots of guys trying different combo's.
He got paid 6 figures just to show up good time to test some clubs if you ask me
Aha, now I see it
is that m2 tour 3 wood ever leaving? Now that he has opened the floodgates in the woods..who knows.
They do, and they’re absolutely right.
I get the feeling Brooks does not care one bit about any tournament that isn't a major, so he's just going to tinker around until its time to start fine tuning the bag for the Masters, which for him, could be like the week before.
FWIW, Callaway did release the triple diamond last year. I bet they do again. JDs Clubs has a bunch of tour heads (without the awful line on the crown). It’ll just be a month or two I’d bet until that happens again
I agree about it being a very thin line, and I agree with your premise here. We are not owed anything to a certain point IMO, and finding that point is tricky. If a pro needs something special/one-off and a few other pros end up wanting something similar, then cool, they should be able to request those things. Be it a slightly different paint line or maybe an internal CG adjustment to suit their ball flight preferences, or whatever. But to use the Epic Flash as an example, when you market your driver as being loaded with features that came from "tour feedback" only to see those features not only missing, but a completely different head (Triple Diamond) being used instead of the supposed "tour feedback" retail model, it leaves a bad taste. At that point it feels less like "oh the tour guys can get little special tweaks and thats cool" and more like "none of them wanted to play the model they are selling, what is wrong with it?". And maybe the answer is; nothing at all! But the optics definitely aren't great and I understand why people would be miffed.
That's Callaway and/or Taylormade for you. Great discussion guys!
On the same token, TM is talking out both sides of their mouth with their products.
They say "Yeah, tour players use the same stuff!" but then admit they do the special logo'd heads which go through 'additional QC' for weight and COR and etc. Although its not a different design, its basically a VW for the masses and Audi for the tour.
Now TM is doing it with their SIM hybrid. "Yeah uhhh...we didn't expect anyone on tour to like it, so now we're making a new model jut for them with a longer hosel, different weighting, and additional COR and QC" - but thats tour only.
Cally does additional models for some players altogether, but its hardly still just Cally doing it in this day and age.
Epic Flash / Apex / Epic / MD5 / Phantom X5 Custom + Pro 2.0 TS / ATMOS Blue TS / Pro 2.0 / 1050Gh
Personally I think Taylormade has gotten better with this. Back in the 282/Superquad/etc days there seemed to be many more tour-only versions whereas the last few years I think they've toned it down. The conforming list is really all the evidence you need - right now, for example, there's 11 different right-handed Mavrik heads on the list (each head with v1/v2/v3, Max Tour, Sub-Zero Tour, 440, etc) while there are only 3 Taylormade heads just like retail (SIM, SIM Max, Max-D). We saw the same with Rogue (Sub Zero V, 440) and Epic Flash (diamond). I don't doubt that maybe some of these were prototypes and maybe aren't in play at all. Much of the Taylormade tour issue equipment recently has mostly amounted to spec'd heads that are otherwise the same (certainly with some exceptions).
This isn't intended to attack any company in particular because the competition is good for everyone especially the consumer, and it's also great to have so many amazing choices, but to echo previous posts, there's just a slippery slope with how many non-retail heads you can see in the hands of folks who move the equipment needle before discerning golfers will start to feel like we're getting the leftovers.
The use of AI allows Callaway to create the many versions of the Maverik to fit a player. I would expect even more versions in next years release to the updated Epic line. If i were them i would do the exact same thing. Why wouldn't you make a different version to suit a style of player instead of lose that player to a competitor?
Drivers are the new putter? Will there be 20 different versions of the Mavrik?
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