Lovely to watch, but how does the Tour STOP the rash of sub 60 rounds

[KYMAR]

Golf for professionals has become drive and short iron. The USGA and the PGA Tour have let it happen so they must be fine with it. We've lost some of the art of golf, but on the flip side, it's fun to see them launch it.

 

20 years from now, 400 yard drives will be the norm if the USGA doesn't do something about it. It's not realistic to expect golf courses to keep up with equipment changes. It's far too expensive to make expensive course changes just for the sake of PGA players when their normal clientele for 51 weeks out of the year don't need the additional length. 59 is going to be less of an accomplishment going forward but it won't change the enjoyment I get out of the game when I play.

 

They've Limited the CT/COR and Max volume. How are we going to get to 400 years drives exactly?

 

 

The head tech is moving things forward..it doesnt do alot for the 110mph and under guy...but for the upper end it does... im sorry if its hard to believe but it does.. for the top players distances will continue to inch forward.... as posted earlier... the thing now is flying it over 300... used to be if you got one to 300 you were long ... not anymore...DJ currently averaging 319.... thats average ! and thats insane

 

Even if this were true, you've got one guy you point to averaging 319, you say distance will continue to "inch forward" yet it's my contention you take issue with and not the notion that in 20 years "400 yards will be the norm"? That's absurd on the face of it.

[MtlJeff]

Golf is a beatable game at the end of the day. There's no one defending you, there's 125 players on the same course with no defence. Over years as players evolve, train better, practice more etc etc, this is perfectly predictable.

 

If you started a pro sport that was just shooting half court shots in basketball, 25yrs from now guys will be able to do it with ridiculous accuracy.

 

Golf is a game about strength and precision /accuracy, things that can be improved on.

 

Unless we plan on changing equipment and courses every time we get upset with how good players are, were just gonna have to deal with this. The costs of redoing the infrastructure would seem a lot higher than just enjoying the show

[jonsnow]

Guys,

 

I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure that changing the ball will never happen, particularly when the golf business is struggling.

 

More length hasn't worked.

 

Should the courses be made tighter, with more bunkers and/or rough? I'm not sure because I don't want it to be too penal and see every course set up like a US Open with +1 winning.

 

What do you think?

 

Why would they wish to do that? The professional tours are all just a business. Their purpose in existance is to make money and money comes from television advertising. Low scores sell Viagra and luxury cars to old white men.

 

You mean young black men don't like Viagra and luxury cars? Did not know that. I learn something new here everyday... :vava:

[KYMAR]

Golf for professionals has become drive and short iron. The USGA and the PGA Tour have let it happen so they must be fine with it. We've lost some of the art of golf, but on the flip side, it's fun to see them launch it.

 

20 years from now, 400 yard drives will be the norm if the USGA doesn't do something about it. It's not realistic to expect golf courses to keep up with equipment changes. It's far too expensive to make expensive course changes just for the sake of PGA players when their normal clientele for 51 weeks out of the year don't need the additional length. 59 is going to be less of an accomplishment going forward but it won't change the enjoyment I get out of the game when I play.

 

They've Limited the CT/COR and Max volume. How are we going to get to 400 years drives exactly?

 

 

The head tech is moving things forward..it doesnt do alot for the 110mph and under guy...but for the upper end it does... im sorry if its hard to believe but it does.. for the top players distances will continue to inch forward.... as posted earlier... the thing now is flying it over 300... used to be if you got one to 300 you were long ... not anymore...DJ currently averaging 319.... thats average ! and thats insane

 

 

 

In 2005, the tour average was 288.4.

 

In 2015 the average was 289.7

 

In 2005 Scott Hend lead the tour averaging 318.9

 

In 2015 DJ lead at 317.7

 

In 2005, 26 guys averaged 300 yards

 

In 2015, 26 guys averaged 300 yards.

 

Here's another fun fact. Hank Kuehne averaged 321 in 2003!

[North Texas]

Golf for professionals has become drive and short iron. The USGA and the PGA Tour have let it happen so they must be fine with it. We've lost some of the art of golf, but on the flip side, it's fun to see them launch it.

 

20 years from now, 400 yard drives will be the norm if the USGA doesn't do something about it. It's not realistic to expect golf courses to keep up with equipment changes. It's far too expensive to make expensive course changes just for the sake of PGA players when their normal clientele for 51 weeks out of the year don't need the additional length. 59 is going to be less of an accomplishment going forward but it won't change the enjoyment I get out of the game when I play.

 

They've Limited the CT/COR and Max volume. How are we going to get to 400 years drives exactly?

 

 

The head tech is moving things forward..it doesnt do alot for the 110mph and under guy...but for the upper end it does... im sorry if its hard to believe but it does.. for the top players distances will continue to inch forward.... as posted earlier... the thing now is flying it over 300... used to be if you got one to 300 you were long ... not anymore...DJ currently averaging 319.... thats average ! and thats insane

 

 

 

In 2005, the tour average was 288.4.

 

In 2015 the average was 289.7

 

In 2005 Scott Hend lead the tour averaging 318.9

 

In 2015 DJ lead at 317.7

 

In 2005, 26 guys averaged 300 yards

 

In 2015, 26 guys averaged 300 yards.

 

Here's another fun fact. Hank Kuehne averaged 321 in 2003!

 

Now granted, I probably need to get my eyes checked, but my eyes are telling something different when it comes to how far these guys are hitting the ball compared to 5, 10, or 15 years ago.

[KYMAR]

Golf for professionals has become drive and short iron. The USGA and the PGA Tour have let it happen so they must be fine with it. We've lost some of the art of golf, but on the flip side, it's fun to see them launch it.

 

20 years from now, 400 yard drives will be the norm if the USGA doesn't do something about it. It's not realistic to expect golf courses to keep up with equipment changes. It's far too expensive to make expensive course changes just for the sake of PGA players when their normal clientele for 51 weeks out of the year don't need the additional length. 59 is going to be less of an accomplishment going forward but it won't change the enjoyment I get out of the game when I play.

 

They've Limited the CT/COR and Max volume. How are we going to get to 400 years drives exactly?

 

 

The head tech is moving things forward..it doesnt do alot for the 110mph and under guy...but for the upper end it does... im sorry if its hard to believe but it does.. for the top players distances will continue to inch forward.... as posted earlier... the thing now is flying it over 300... used to be if you got one to 300 you were long ... not anymore...DJ currently averaging 319.... thats average ! and thats insane

 

 

 

In 2005, the tour average was 288.4.

 

In 2015 the average was 289.7

 

In 2005 Scott Hend lead the tour averaging 318.9

 

In 2015 DJ lead at 317.7

 

In 2005, 26 guys averaged 300 yards

 

In 2015, 26 guys averaged 300 yards.

 

Here's another fun fact. Hank Kuehne averaged 321 in 2003!

 

Now granted, I probably need to get my eyes checked, but my eyes are telling something different when it comes to how far these guys are hitting the ball compared to 5, 10, or 15 years ago.

 

I'll go with the statistics. Nothing against your eyes of course.

[North Butte]

If your eyes aren't standing adjacent to measured fairways on Tour events, it's hard to know what to believe. Everything you think you "see" is moderated through TV coverage designed to hype the distances that players are hitting the ball. There are only two narratives you will see on the TV broadcast. It's 90% "Oh my god can you believe how far this guy hits it?" and the other 10% is "Wow, this guy is 52 yards shorter than DJ. Can you believe how much longer DJ is?".

 

I have a theory that is pure speculation with absolutely no way to find out if it's true or not. As players become able to hit the ball farther and farther with any given club, while courses are by and large the same or very similar lengths from year to year, the incentive to tee off with driving irons or fairway woods instead of driver becomes greater and greater.

 

So I would not be at all surprised to find that guys playing a certain hole in 2017 averaged hitting their tee shots 287.5 yards with 95% percent of them hitting driver while the guys who played that same hole in 2012 averaged 287.0 yards. with 60% of them using a long iron instead of driver. Not every hole offers the same reward for 20 extra yards.

 

I would be willing to bet a dollar (if there were any way to find out) that the percentage of Par 4/Par 5 tee shots hit with driver has declined significantly over the past decade. Really ever since Tiger dismantled Hoylake by hitting 2-iron/4-iron on one massively long Par 4 after another it has been established that on certain courses a good long-iron player can eliminate virtually every bit of trouble by simply hitting a 270-yard iron shot off the tee then hitting high, soft-landing 4-5-6 iron approaches without ever having to take on the penal features.

[Roadking2003]

Guys,

 

I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure that changing the ball will never happen, particularly when the golf business is struggling.

 

More length hasn't worked.

 

Should the courses be made tighter, with more bunkers and/or rough? I'm not sure because I don't want it to be too penal and see every course set up like a US Open with +1 winning.

 

What do you think?

 

Why do you want to stop sub 60 rounds?

[b.helts]

Let's also keep in mind that, with the exception of Thomas, none of the guys who have shot 59 were bombers.

 

 

[KYMAR]

If your eyes aren't standing adjacent to measured fairways on Tour events, it's hard to know what to believe. Everything you think you "see" is moderated through TV coverage designed to hype the distances that players are hitting the ball. There are only two narratives you will see on the TV broadcast. It's 90% "Oh my god can you believe how far this guy hits it?" and the other 10% is "Wow, this guy is 52 yards shorter than DJ. Can you believe how much longer DJ is?".

 

I have a theory that is pure speculation with absolutely no way to find out if it's true or not. As players become able to hit the ball farther and farther with any given club, while courses are by and large the same or very similar lengths from year to year, the incentive to tee off with driving irons or fairway woods instead of driver becomes greater and greater.

 

So I would not be at all surprised to find that guys playing a certain hole in 2017 averaged hitting their tee shots 287.5 yards with 95% percent of them hitting driver while the guys who played that same hole in 2012 averaged 287.0 yards. with 60% of them using a long iron instead of driver. Not every hole offers the same reward for 20 extra yards.

 

Lol

[Roadking2003]

 

In 2005, the tour average was 288.4.

 

In 2015 the average was 289.7

 

In 2005 Scott Hend lead the tour averaging 318.9

 

In 2015 DJ lead at 317.7

 

In 2005, 26 guys averaged 300 yards

 

In 2015, 26 guys averaged 300 yards.

 

Here's another fun fact. Hank Kuehne averaged 321 in 2003!

 

Good post. Stats always bring a sense of reality to a debate.

[Roadking2003]

Let's also keep in mind that, with the exception of Thomas, none of the guys who have shot 59 were bombers.

 

In 1998 and 1999 Duval ranked 6th and 9th in driving distance.

[Dan Drake]

Let's also keep in mind that, with the exception of Thomas, none of the guys who have shot 59 were bombers.

 

In 1998 and 1999 Duval ranked 6th and 9th in driving distance.

 

Duval could absolutely roast that sucker back then.

[b.helts]

Ok. With the exception of duval and Thomas.

 

Still means that 59 is done with precision, not length.

[Man_O_War]

59s have been fun to watch for 2017 but they have been shot on courses where the scores have always been low on..they are "easier" courses for the pros traditional : Sony Open, and California desert so far. I think i will be more judgmental when i see 59s at Pebble, Doral, Sawgrass..so far... good entertainment and mighty good putting on both 59s. It's not like they had tapins all day.

[sui generis]

Guys,

 

I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure that changing the ball will never happen, particularly when the golf business is struggling.

 

More length hasn't worked.

 

Should the courses be made tighter, with more bunkers and/or rough? I'm not sure because I don't want it to be too penal and see every course set up like a US Open with +1 winning.

 

What do you think?

 

Why would they wish to do that? The professional tours are all just a business. Their purpose in existance is to make money and money comes from television advertising. Low scores sell Viagra and luxury cars to old white men.

 

You mean young black men don't like Viagra and luxury cars? Did not know that. I learn something new here everyday... :vava:

 

Who's to say they don't? However, it's unlikely they are the target audience for those products on TV golf shows.

[sui generis]

I don't want to see Hadwin's and other randos shooting 59s. That's why it's a problem. It cheapens the game and, at the same time, it doesn't do anything really for the ratings.

 

TV golf is just a TV show; low scores bring viewers who are tempted to buy the stuff advertised. The connection to reality is minimal. Is your sense of self worth dependant on the performance of some gifted athlete that you see on TV?

[pinhigh27]

Golf for professionals has become drive and short iron. The USGA and the PGA Tour have let it happen so they must be fine with it. We've lost some of the art of golf, but on the flip side, it's fun to see them launch it.

 

20 years from now, 400 yard drives will be the norm if the USGA doesn't do something about it. It's not realistic to expect golf courses to keep up with equipment changes. It's far too expensive to make expensive course changes just for the sake of PGA players when their normal clientele for 51 weeks out of the year don't need the additional length. 59 is going to be less of an accomplishment going forward but it won't change the enjoyment I get out of the game when I play.

 

They've Limited the CT/COR and Max volume. How are we going to get to 400 years drives exactly?

 

 

The head tech is moving things forward..it doesnt do alot for the 110mph and under guy...but for the upper end it does... im sorry if its hard to believe but it does.. for the top players distances will continue to inch forward.... as posted earlier... the thing now is flying it over 300... used to be if you got one to 300 you were long ... not anymore...DJ currently averaging 319.... thats average ! and thats insane

 

 

 

In 2005, the tour average was 288.4.

 

In 2015 the average was 289.7

 

In 2005 Scott Hend lead the tour averaging 318.9

 

In 2015 DJ lead at 317.7

 

In 2005, 26 guys averaged 300 yards

 

In 2015, 26 guys averaged 300 yards.

 

Here's another fun fact. Hank Kuehne averaged 321 in 2003!

 

we're clearly doomed. 400 yd average in 2020 before we know it

[pinhigh27]

I don't get the freaking out about yardages. COR is maxed out. The only way(outside of playing conditions) a tour player can get longer is basically 2 ways:

 

a) fitting more tailored towards distance, a la high launch low spin

b) swing faster

[KYMAR]

Golf for professionals has become drive and short iron. The USGA and the PGA Tour have let it happen so they must be fine with it. We've lost some of the art of golf, but on the flip side, it's fun to see them launch it.

 

20 years from now, 400 yard drives will be the norm if the USGA doesn't do something about it. It's not realistic to expect golf courses to keep up with equipment changes. It's far too expensive to make expensive course changes just for the sake of PGA players when their normal clientele for 51 weeks out of the year don't need the additional length. 59 is going to be less of an accomplishment going forward but it won't change the enjoyment I get out of the game when I play.

 

They've Limited the CT/COR and Max volume. How are we going to get to 400 years drives exactly?

 

 

The head tech is moving things forward..it doesnt do alot for the 110mph and under guy...but for the upper end it does... im sorry if its hard to believe but it does.. for the top players distances will continue to inch forward.... as posted earlier... the thing now is flying it over 300... used to be if you got one to 300 you were long ... not anymore...DJ currently averaging 319.... thats average ! and thats insane

 

 

 

In 2005, the tour average was 288.4.

 

In 2015 the average was 289.7

 

In 2005 Scott Hend lead the tour averaging 318.9

 

In 2015 DJ lead at 317.7

 

In 2005, 26 guys averaged 300 yards

 

In 2015, 26 guys averaged 300 yards.

 

Here's another fun fact. Hank Kuehne averaged 321 in 2003!

 

we're clearly doomed. 400 yd average in 2020 before we know it

 

Oh yeah! Will totally be "the norm"

[North Butte]

I don't get the freaking out about yardages. COR is maxed out. The only way(outside of playing conditions) a tour player can get longer is basically 2 ways:

 

a) fitting more tailored towards distance, a la high launch low spin

b) swing faster

 

Dude, these guys are still whining about the ProV1 being deemed legal 17 years ago. You're not going to get much traction with them by talking about what's actually happening today.

[KyGolf]

It was more about making everything they looked at more than how far they hit it. Hadwin had 21 puts, Austin and Thomas were rolling it in from everywhere.

[pinhigh27]

As others have said, these are usually on easy events with reasonable greens. A pro am on augusta greens wouldn't be very enjoyable for the participants (no matter how each richie says they are to putt on)

[PJ72]

If your eyes aren't standing adjacent to measured fairways on Tour events, it's hard to know what to believe. Everything you think you "see" is moderated through TV coverage designed to hype the distances that players are hitting the ball. There are only two narratives you will see on the TV broadcast. It's 90% "Oh my god can you believe how far this guy hits it?" and the other 10% is "Wow, this guy is 52 yards shorter than DJ. Can you believe how much longer DJ is?".

 

I have a theory that is pure speculation with absolutely no way to find out if it's true or not. As players become able to hit the ball farther and farther with any given club, while courses are by and large the same or very similar lengths from year to year, the incentive to tee off with driving irons or fairway woods instead of driver becomes greater and greater.

 

So I would not be at all surprised to find that guys playing a certain hole in 2017 averaged hitting their tee shots 287.5 yards with 95% percent of them hitting driver while the guys who played that same hole in 2012 averaged 287.0 yards. with 60% of them using a long iron instead of driver. Not every hole offers the same reward for 20 extra yards.

 

I would be willing to bet a dollar (if there were any way to find out) that the percentage of Par 4/Par 5 tee shots hit with driver has declined significantly over the past decade. Really ever since Tiger dismantled Hoylake by hitting 2-iron/4-iron on one massively long Par 4 after another it has been established that on certain courses a good long-iron player can eliminate virtually every bit of trouble by simply hitting a 270-yard iron shot off the tee then hitting high, soft-landing 4-5-6 iron approaches without ever having to take on the penal features.

 

That's an excellent post and I'm with you to a certain extent, except they apparently measure and record drives on 2 holes per round, usually hitting in opposite directions (maybe upwind and downwind, eg) AND also those holes are where the players will predominately hit driver. There's a little bit of licence in that of course, as it could mean >50% hit driver, or it could mean >95% hit driver or anything in between.

 

Perhaps someone could dig out the Tour 'manual' on this and show us the actual description of the method used?

[PJ72]

Also, going with the 'conspiracy theory' a little, there seems to be the narrative described above with regard to players like Rory, DJ, JD, Tiger etc, whom also seem to have the biggest profile with the sponsors, so there seems to be an effort to accentuate their feats with driver etc.

 

However, when you look at the driver clubhead speeds (someone posted this recently and it was very enlightening, i'll see if I can dig it out) over the past year, it seems like every player is swinging it at 120+mph, and some are swinging it into the 130's! In fact, I don't think Rory, DJ, JD etc were in the top 10 fastest swingers.

 

EDIT: I stand corrected and most players are swinging around 115+mph. And DJ is 9th on the list.

 

Here is the list:-

 

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02401.html

[augustgolf]

Disclaimer: These are my opinions which means I can't prove them right but you also can't prove I'm wrong.

 

Don't think for a minute that they can't make a ball that a 120 mph swinger would not hit as far but still allow a 90 mph swinger to still hit it just a far.

 

Thanks to the both the ball and driver head size, the gap between a 90 mph swinger and a 120 mph is much greater than it used to be.

 

I'll argue that point.

 

I was taught, many many years ago, that for each 1 mph of clubhead speed, you could reasonable expect 2.48 yards of distance....considering all things like: hitting a driver, and hitting it on the center of the clubface, with the clubface square at impact.

 

If I'm not mistaken, that is still roughly the formula used to determine distance today.

 

What is different now, IMHO, is that you can swing much harder (read: faster) miss the center of the clubface, and still get better distance and accuracy than with the older club designs.

 

And, I like the fact that I can hit the ball a bit further now, at 60 years of age, than I did in my prime....teens into mid-30's.

 

I also like the fact that I can spin the ball better, due to better club design, better turf conditions, and better ball construction....altho, maybe I'm being a little off here....you always could spin the snot out of a balata ball, but it certainly wouldn't go as far as today' multilayer, urethane covered balls.

 

I love the fact that today, most courses have greens that putt like those I grew up playing. From where I caddied, to where I worked and learned this business, I always tried to respect and make better, each green....

 

The fact remains that Al Geiberger shot 59 on a pretty roughly conditioned course (by today's standards) with a ball that went out of round quickly, and with woods that couldn't ever get the distance they might get today. And, while it is true that he played "lift/clean/place" (or, so I'm told....I wasn't there)....his 59 took years to be matched.

 

I personally don't think that we have too many scores below 60 that will affect anyone, but I am smart enough to recognize that these scores are certainly coming more often, and by players who's abilities really aren't of the caliber of those who you would expect to be shooting that low of a number.

 

When we start having a sub-60 round every week....I'm not sure what might be done to address that situation, but....til then, just let 'em roll, boys

[jonsnow]

Also, going with the 'conspiracy theory' a little, there seems to be the narrative described above with regard to players like Rory, DJ, JD, Tiger etc, whom also seem to have the biggest profile with the sponsors, so there seems to be an effort to accentuate their feats with driver etc.

 

However, when you look at the driver clubhead speeds (someone posted this recently and it was very enlightening, i'll see if I can dig it out) over the past year, it seems like every player is swinging it at 120+mph, and some are swinging it into the 130's! In fact, I don't think Rory, DJ, JD etc were in the top 10 fastest swingers.

 

EDIT: I stand corrected and most players are swinging around 115+mph. And DJ is 9th on the list.

 

Here is the list:-

 

http://www.pgatour.c...stat.02401.html

 

Interesting list. I must have missed the Ryan Brehm & Brandon Hagy 59 watches...

[ckay]

I would understand this point if players went out shooting 59-62 all day but we are talking about somebody going out there and having a round of their life. Whether it is the ball, the driver head, or narrow fairways a 59 will still be shot somewhere down the road.

[pinhigh27]

Also, going with the 'conspiracy theory' a little, there seems to be the narrative described above with regard to players like Rory, DJ, JD, Tiger etc, whom also seem to have the biggest profile with the sponsors, so there seems to be an effort to accentuate their feats with driver etc.

 

However, when you look at the driver clubhead speeds (someone posted this recently and it was very enlightening, i'll see if I can dig it out) over the past year, it seems like every player is swinging it at 120+mph, and some are swinging it into the 130's! In fact, I don't think Rory, DJ, JD etc were in the top 10 fastest swingers.

 

EDIT: I stand corrected and most players are swinging around 115+mph. And DJ is 9th on the list.

 

Here is the list:-

 

http://www.pgatour.c...stat.02401.html

 

average is like 112-113.

[QMany]

Grow the rough, narrow the fairways, make reachable par 5s, par 4s. Otherwise, USGA up the courses.

I agree. Some of the finishing scores are in the -20s, which means the course is playing too easy. No need to make courses longer or roll back equipment. Just do what you suggested. These guys are professionals, they should be challenged. Bomb and gouge is boring.

 

This tournament is known for low scores. Winning scores have been -20 or (much) better 24 of the last 25 years. Even before the new balls, John Cook won in 97' with -33, Tom Kite in 95 with -35! (Five rounds).

 

Let them go bananas in Palm Springs, they probably won't the following week at Torrey.