2019 WGC Dell Technologies Match Play

[Pent08]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> > @Pent08 said:

> > > > @Pent08 said:

> > > > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > > > @Pent08 said:

> > > > > > It's just a shame Sergio had to be the one to find himself in that situation, since it was all so easily avoidable. It may be Sergio's fault, but it was so incredibly unlucky and unfortunate, given that that 4" putt would be conceded by literally anyone. The only reason there are talks of "tantrum" and controversy is because Kuchar's eye balls were not fixated on the putt. That is why Sergio is being defended.

> > > > >

> > > > > What?

> > > > > It happened because Sergio didn't look to Kuchar's eye balls, and it sounds like Kuchar saw it - he has no obligation to yell "that's good" within one or two seconds.

> > > > > Nonsense.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I'm not saying this is Kuchar's fault, just that this was all easily avoidable.

> > >

> > > How, other than your suggestion Kuchar wasn't watching the putt, who says he wasn't? And if he was, Sergio was on that ball almost immediately - in real time the way he was acting, I may have thought he was going to just tap it in, which the dummy tried to do and failed, why would I think he would miss it? Only one aspect of this was avoidable - Sergio's behavior.

> > >

> >

> > So you're saying you'd defend the decision if Kuchar was watching the entire time? The complete lack of objectivity on this issue is reminiscent of a political debate on twitter.

> > * Sergio had a putt to win

> > * He missed

> > * He had a 4" putt to halve, which he believed to be conceded (as would anyone)

> > * He, still upset that he missed the putt, very slightly (somehow this is a "tantrum" by a "dummy") tapped the ball (obviously assuming the hole was halved)

> > * He loses the hole on a 4" putt

> > This is unfortunate, no matter who's involved. Matches should be won with clubs. That is all I'm saying. I've removed all insinuation that this is Kuchar's fault.

>

> I'm saying you said Kuch wasn't watching. Until you have the evidence to support that, I'm not really listening to the rest. Your claim was it was avoidable because Kuch wasn't watching. Really has nothing to do with anything, but again, who said he wasn't watching?

>

>

 

I think I'm just having a difficult time articulating my actual position. So I'll just end it here.

[MtlJeff]

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > > @RSinSG said:

> > > > @Maximilian said:

> > > > “I thought Kuchar actively told a rules official that he never conceded the putt”

> > >

> > > Did Matt “actively” seek out the official or did he “actively” give an honest response to a question? I ask because I couldn’t watch and don’t know.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The reports seem to suggest that there was a moment of confusion after the missed putt, at which point Matt told Sergio he didn't concede that putt and they should discuss with an official, and he told the official he would've conceded the putt but didn't get a chance to

>

> So if that report is true, Kucher could have said nothing and they would have just moved on like it had been conceded? And I’m not exercising any judgement either way there at all, just asking if that was plausible.

>

 

It's possible. But I have mentioned that the announcers noticed right away that it's very likely the putt hadn't been conceded. He almost certainly would've been asked about it after the round and would have had to lie.

 

 

[Pent08]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @Pent08 said:

> > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > @Pent08 said:

> > > > It's just a shame Sergio had to be the one to find himself in that situation, since it was all so easily avoidable. It may be Sergio's fault, but it was so incredibly unlucky and unfortunate, given that that 4" putt would be conceded by literally anyone. The only reason there are talks of "tantrum" and controversy is because Kuchar's eye balls were not fixated on the putt. That is why Sergio is being defended.

> > >

> > > You could have stopped at "easily avoidable" and said "if Sergio hadn't let his temper get the best of him." Kucher has zero responsibility in this incident. None.

> >

> > You could have stopped reading at "It may be Sergio's fault".

>

> So if someone calls out the ridiculousness of your premise they should have stopped reading? You and Sergio appear to have something in common. I'll help you out, "It was easily avoidable if Sergio followed the rules he's been playing by for 35 years and acted like a professional and adult instead of expecting people to biw down when he throws a fit."

>

> It wasn't a case of "may be" Sergios fault and it was neither unlucky it unfortunate. It was however avoidable by acting like an adult and golfer who is fully aware of the rules.

 

What is my premise?

[WidespreadPanic]

> @bladehunter said:

>

>

> > @OldTomMorris said:

> > Surely Sergio can't be as unhappy as he looks. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt especially as he owned it (eventually) but he makes it extremely difficult.

>

>

> I can guarantee you Sergio is as unhappy as he looks. To hit it as good as he can and putt as poorly as he does is shear torcher . And his recent swap away from the claw says that the bandaids aren’t slowing the bleeding anymore.

 

It’s infuriating for me to do on a Saturday morning, I can’t imagine it at that level.

[bladehunter]

> @WidespreadPanic said:

> I’m sure this was discussed yesterday but oh wel....I haven’t jumped on the “Rory needs a new caddy” train until yesterday. How on earth do you let him hit a wedge from 175? Tiger hit a 4 iron from 205(?) and Rory pulls wedge?! Chip an 8 or 9 iron up there. Does he have that shot? Crazy club choice.

 

 

Yea. He was never getting that club there. Not even with helping wind.

 

[jdl]

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> So if that report is true, Kucher could have said nothing and they would have just moved on like it had been conceded? And I’m not exercising any judgement either way there at all, just asking if that was plausible.

>

 

I don't see how that would have happened, though. The officials keeping score would also have had to "assume" the concession and I doubt they're going to do that since it was obvious it didn't happen.

[Christosterone]

Man, beer guard hit an AMAZING approach from a cliff side....

Shame his birdie putt burned the edge....

I’m becoming a fan!

 

-Chris

[Pent08]

I'm thinking Molinari wins but I'm pulling for Lucas.

[buckeyefl]

I think this course would be great for A Ryder or Presidents cup but I don't know if it could handle the crowds.

[cardoustie]

Serious Q

You're in a club match. Your opponent lags a putt to 4" and quickly scoops it up ... which happens all the time in my experience

Are you going to claim the hole saying I didn't mutter "good" or give the pick it up hand signal? No way. Nobody would play with you at my club.

I've been playing competitive golf for 35+ years (college, provincial and national events) and have never seen this pulled on another player. A stone dead putt is implied to be good. Most of the time the other player just walks to the next hole

Anyways, we can agree to disagree. Let's go Denmark

[deadsolid...shank]

> @buckeyefl said:

> I think this course would be great for A Ryder or Presidents cup but I don't know if it could handle the crowds.

Well, when the inevitable loudmouths show up there is plenty of water to toss them in!

 

I agree, it would be a really good one.

 

[imakaveli]

Very happy Furyk decided to lose Ryder Cup before even landing in France without picking Kisner. Thanks bald guy!

[jdl]

> @cardoustie said:

> Serious Q

> You're in a club match. Your opponent lags a putt to 4" and quickly scoops it up ... which happens all the time in my experience

> Are you going to claim the hole saying I didn't mutter "good" or give the pick it up hand signal? No way. Nobody would play with you at my club.

> I've been playing competitive golf for 35+ years (college, provincial and national events) and have never seen this pulled on another player. A stone dead putt is implied to be good. Most of the time the other player just walks to the next hole

> Anyways, we can agree to disagree. Let's go Denmark

 

Well, this wasn't a "club match". And Sergio didn't "scoop it up", he made a shot. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but if he had "scooped it up", isn't there an option to have him replace the ball at that point? And then Kuch could have called it good?

 

Next, what if it's 8", is that also assumed to be conceded? How about 12"? 18"? Where is the line drawn?

[bladehunter]

> @cardoustie said:

> Serious Q

> You're in a club match. Your opponent lags a putt to 4" and quickly scoops it up ... which happens all the time in my experience

> Are you going to claim the hole saying I didn't mutter "good" or give the pick it up hand signal? No way. Nobody would play with you at my club.

> I've been playing competitive golf for 35+ years (college, provincial and national events) and have never seen this pulled on another player. A stone dead putt is implied to be good. Most of the time the other player just walks to the next hole

> Anyways, we can agree to disagree. Let's go Denmark

 

We had a match decided on 18 when a guy hit a ball towards OB. Then reloaded and fired and provisional without declaring it a provisional. Rules are rules. I doubt I’d call you on the 3 inch putt myself. But. I wouldn’t have an issue if someone did. Rules are important.

[imakaveli]

Pulling for a Moli-Beer Guard final just to laugh at poor guy Shipnuck twitter page :D

[OldTomMorris]

> @golfnoob25 said:

> Tiger is the GOAT. No argument will sway me.

>

> Tiger 2.0 is a top 10-15 player. If he gets his putting right he can be top 5. He has been atrocious inside 6 feet putting.

>

> Rory is gifted, but he definitely choked the match away vs Tiger. Tiger choked it away in the second match. He missed 4 putts inside 6 feet

 

Tiger's putting won't improve at 43.5 years of age.

 

It was very poor from Rory but not sure it was a choke.

[imakaveli]

> @OldTomMorris said:

> > @golfnoob25 said:

> > Tiger is the GOAT. No argument will sway me.

> >

> > Tiger 2.0 is a top 10-15 player. If he gets his putting right he can be top 5. He has been atrocious inside 6 feet putting.

> >

> > Rory is gifted, but he definitely choked the match away vs Tiger. Tiger choked it away in the second match. He missed 4 putts inside 6 feet

>

> Tiger's putting won't improve at 43.5 years of age.

>

> It was very poor from Rory but not sure it was a choke.

 

Rory loves denying us the pleasure of watching his A Game during awesome matches.

[Hawkeye77]

> @cardoustie said:

> Serious Q

> You're in a club match. Your opponent lags a putt to 4" and quickly scoops it up ... which happens all the time in my experience

> Are you going to claim the hole saying I didn't mutter "good" or give the pick it up hand signal? No way. Nobody would play with you at my club.

> I've been playing competitive golf for 35+ years (college, provincial and national events) and have never seen this pulled on another player. A stone dead putt is implied to be good. Most of the time the other player just walks to the next hole

> Anyways, we can agree to disagree. Let's go Denmark

 

I totally get your point, but don't believe Kuch was "pulling" something - that's my disconnect. In the heat of the moment, he mentions that he didn't give it - I can't get inside Kuch's mind enough to know his thought process. How is that on him and thereby excusing Sergio's heat of the moment F-up? We really don't know otherwise. Anyway, the official was right there, it wasn't going to slide.

To your general point, I was playing a guy in match play I really didn't like - sandbagging gentleman plus hurry, hurry, impatient. He putted out of turn a couple times, left the stick in while he tapped in a couple short ones after chipping BEFORE I had any chance to give them and hit the flagstick with the putts (loss of hole, not simply replay the shot). Didn't say anything and eventually won the match but you know, it wasn't really right I let that stuff slide. Conversely, was in a bunker watching opponent the next year trying to get on a par 3, he was on his way to making a 7, and the wedge I was holding slid down and touched the sand. He couldn't see it, I called it (this was before it was obvious I would win the hole), he tried to talk me out of it - no way. We thought it was a two stroke penalty, found out at the turn it was loss of hole and so I adjusted the card accordingly - lost on first extra hole.

Hard to say in every situation what we might do. Does the fact I let stuff slide against the one guy bug me because I didn't like him more than the ethical issue? I just can't say. The out of turn I know is an optional thing so that's not a major and you don't have to have him replay the shot, but the flagstick issue on two different holes, one of which I lost? No, I should have called him on it the first time. After letting it slide once, I figured it was probably not right to call it the next time, but I really think I should have called it the first time and been done with it. Maybe just a caution to see if he'd man up and say he lost the hole? But if he didn't, and having raised the issue, aren't I then agreeing to waive a penalty?

I think that's why the rules are black and white as to some things and issues seem to arise when we try to make them gray or want them to be gray.

Sorry for the ramble.

 

Edit: scooping up the 4 inch one, no I'm not calling that and if I don't and we tee off on the next hole, it's over with. No officials there to watch for stuff. Not saying I might not mention later or before the next green if I'm concerned it will happen again, "Hey, I was giving you that and too late to call something but just let me say it!"

[buckeyefl]

> @cardoustie said:

> Serious Q

> You're in a club match. Your opponent lags a putt to 4" and quickly scoops it up ... which happens all the time in my experience

> Are you going to claim the hole saying I didn't mutter "good" or give the pick it up hand signal? No way. Nobody would play with you at my club.

> I've been playing competitive golf for 35+ years (college, provincial and national events) and have never seen this pulled on another player. A stone dead putt is implied to be good. Most of the time the other player just walks to the next hole

> Anyways, we can agree to disagree. Let's go Denmark

 

There's no disagreeing. Nothing was "pulled" on anyone and the rules were followed as written.

[HitEmTrue]

> @"deadsolid...shank" said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > > @RSinSG said:

> > > > @Maximilian said:

> > > > “I thought Kuchar actively told a rules official that he never conceded the putt”

> > >

> > > Did Matt “actively” seek out the official or did he “actively” give an honest response to a question? I ask because I couldn’t watch and don’t know.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The reports seem to suggest that there was a moment of confusion after the missed putt, at which point Matt told Sergio he didn't concede that putt and they should discuss with an official, and he told the official he would've conceded the putt but didn't get a chance to

>

> So if that report is true, Kucher could have said nothing and they would have just moved on like it had been conceded? And I’m not exercising any judgement either way there at all, just asking if that was plausible.

>

 

No, I don’t think so. Sergio missed the putt so moving on would have meant Sergio lost the hole. Unless the scorer of the match saw or heard Kuchar concede the putt.

 

[rawdog]

Lmao. Faldo saying "keep your head down."

[Cool Runnings]

Agree… and even though it’s hard to admit, that’s why Jack is the true goat.

 

> @dlygrisse said:

> > @"Cool Runnings" said:

> > The wind on such a near chip nowhere near impacts the flight of a 170 yard shot hit by an unexpected gust.

> > > @BlackM00Nlight said:

> > > Nah.. it’s the wind. Just ask Cool Runnings.

> >

> >

>

> LOL. Tiger hit a poor shot, and a poor putt under pressure and lost. Call it a misjudgment, call it choking, call it fatigue ir doesn’t matter. He didn’t play his last 2 shots properly. A young Tiger would have made birdie on 18, par at worst. He would have never finished like that.

>

> When is everyone going to accept the FACT that Tiger, while a very good player, is not the player he once was. He is now just one of many very good players on tour. This was inevitable, it happened to all the greats in their 40’s. Except for the 1986 Masters Jack was done winning at this age as well.

>

>

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

 

> @dlygrisse said:

> > @"Cool Runnings" said:

> > The wind on such a near chip nowhere near impacts the flight of a 170 yard shot hit by an unexpected gust.

> > > @BlackM00Nlight said:

> > > Nah.. it’s the wind. Just ask Cool Runnings.

> >

> >

>

> LOL. Tiger hit a poor shot, and a poor putt under pressure and lost. Call it a misjudgment, call it choking, call it fatigue ir doesn’t matter. He didn’t play his last 2 shots properly. A young Tiger would have made birdie on 18, par at worst. He would have never finished like that.

>

> When is everyone going to accept the FACT that Tiger, while a very good player, is not the player he once was. He is now just one of many very good players on tour. This was inevitable, it happened to all the greats in their 40’s. Except for the 1986 Masters Jack was done winning at this age as well.

>

>

Not so fast!!!!!

 

Not going to get into the whole GOAT argument, but just a friendly reminder somebody at age 40, after being bugged about being a bit past his prime for the first time ( well before 1986) managed to win a U.S. Open and PGA Championship!

 

Majors 16 and 17. Tiger won his 16 and 17 at what age? Sorry, couldn't resist!

[Christosterone]

I’m glad this thread is going so well..

 

-Chris

[Hawkeye77]

> @Redpro said:

> The chemistry between Gannon and Faldo is amazing; warmth, humor, looking at each other with respect and interest, eyes on us instead of a gaze elsewhere and listening to what their producers are saying in their ears, and absolutely no cliches or obvious observations. I'm captivated.

 

 

So much better than what we suffered with yesterday afternoon. Gannon is good, Faldo is really, really good, especially in these "off prime time" bits. Hicks was getting way over the top on more than one occasion - no Miller to say a few simple words to get us back to planet Earth.

[straightshot7]

> @cardoustie said:

> Serious Q

> You're in a club match. Your opponent lags a putt to 4" and quickly scoops it up ... which happens all the time in my experience

> Are you going to claim the hole saying I didn't mutter "good" or give the pick it up hand signal? No way. Nobody would play with you at my club.

> I've been playing competitive golf for 35+ years (college, provincial and national events) and have never seen this pulled on another player. A stone dead putt is implied to be good. Most of the time the other player just walks to the next hole

> Anyways, we can agree to disagree. Let's go Denmark

 

Kuchar said that the Tour has been very adamant in telling the players to give a definitive, verbal indication that a putt is good. Kuchar said he intentionally tries to be loud and clear when he does it.

 

There are no "implied" gimmies. They look to the other player and wait until they hear that it is good. And by rule, you can't retroactively give someone a putt after they've missed it. Hence, Sergio admitted it was his fault.

 

Having said that, it does show how the whole gimme system is kind of stupid at times. Players should plan on just putting everything out, to avoid these potential debacles.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @"Canoe Paddler" said:

> > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > @"Canoe Paddler" said:

> > > > I’m not a Kuchar fan. He doesn’t come across as genuine. But calling him out for not being “gentlemanly” while defending Sergio’s actions is pretty high up there on the funniest things I’ve read today list.

> > >

> > > Off topic but Matt really is a very nice person. How he ended up that way with a father like he has is anyone's guess but he managed.

> >

> >

> > I could easily be wrong. I’ve never net the guy or spent any time with him so I shouldn’t rush to judgement.

> >

>

> It happens quite a bit and it goes both ways. Some seem like good guys but aren't and some can come off as jerks but are nice guys. It's hard to judge unless you spend time around people. I know if I were in their situation I would probably not be judged correctly.

 

So you appear to be a good guy when in reality you're not :wink:

 

LOL I know for sure people would think I'm a jerk.

@Hawkeye77 said:

> > @rawdog said:

> > Lmao. Faldo saying "keep your head down."

>

> rig

>

> > @dlygrisse said:

> > > @"Cool Runnings" said:

> > > The wind on such a near chip nowhere near impacts the flight of a 170 yard shot hit by an unexpected gust.

> > > > @BlackM00Nlight said:

> > > > Nah.. it’s the wind. Just ask Cool Runnings.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > LOL. Tiger hit a poor shot, and a poor putt under pressure and lost. Call it a misjudgment, call it choking, call it fatigue ir doesn’t matter. He didn’t play his last 2 shots properly. A young Tiger would have made birdie on 18, par at worst. He would have never finished like that.

> >

> > When is everyone going to accept the FACT that Tiger, while a very good player, is not the player he once was. He is now just one of many very good players on tour. This was inevitable, it happened to all the greats in their 40’s. Except for the 1986 Masters Jack was done winning at this age as well.

> >

> >

> Not so fast!!!!!

>

> Not going to get into the whole GOAT argument, but just a friendly reminder somebody at age 40, after being bugged about being a bit past his prime for the first time ( well before 1986) managed to win a U.S. Open and PGA Championship!

>

> Majors 16 and 17. Tiger won his 16 and 17 at what age? Sorry, couldn't resist!

 

Because the guy that won majors 16 and 17 after the age of 40 still is the GOAT :smiley:

[bscinstnct]

"Nicklaus and I were watching Tiger play on TV," Tom says. "I can't remember where it was. I think it was at the Senior Skins Game. So we were in Hawaii. I said, 'Bear, he's the best, isn't he?' Jack said, 'Yeah, he's the best.'"

 

-Tom Watson

[buckeyefl]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @"Canoe Paddler" said:

> > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > @"Canoe Paddler" said:

> > > > > I’m not a Kuchar fan. He doesn’t come across as genuine. But calling him out for not being “gentlemanly” while defending Sergio’s actions is pretty high up there on the funniest things I’ve read today list.

> > > >

> > > > Off topic but Matt really is a very nice person. How he ended up that way with a father like he has is anyone's guess but he managed.

> > >

> > >

> > > I could easily be wrong. I’ve never net the guy or spent any time with him so I shouldn’t rush to judgement.

> > >

> >

> > It happens quite a bit and it goes both ways. Some seem like good guys but aren't and some can come off as jerks but are nice guys. It's hard to judge unless you spend time around people. I know if I were in their situation I would probably not be judged correctly.

>

> So you appear to be a good guy when in reality you're not :wink:

>

> LOL I know for sure people would think I'm a jerk.

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @rawdog said:

> > > Lmao. Faldo saying "keep your head down."

> >

> > rig

> >

> > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > @"Cool Runnings" said:

> > > > The wind on such a near chip nowhere near impacts the flight of a 170 yard shot hit by an unexpected gust.

> > > > > @BlackM00Nlight said:

> > > > > Nah.. it’s the wind. Just ask Cool Runnings.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > LOL. Tiger hit a poor shot, and a poor putt under pressure and lost. Call it a misjudgment, call it choking, call it fatigue ir doesn’t matter. He didn’t play his last 2 shots properly. A young Tiger would have made birdie on 18, par at worst. He would have never finished like that.

> > >

> > > When is everyone going to accept the FACT that Tiger, while a very good player, is not the player he once was. He is now just one of many very good players on tour. This was inevitable, it happened to all the greats in their 40’s. Except for the 1986 Masters Jack was done winning at this age as well.

> > >

> > >

> > Not so fast!!!!!

> >

> > Not going to get into the whole GOAT argument, but just a friendly reminder somebody at age 40, after being bugged about being a bit past his prime for the first time ( well before 1986) managed to win a U.S. Open and PGA Championship!

> >

> > Majors 16 and 17. Tiger won his 16 and 17 at what age? Sorry, couldn't resist!

>

> Because the guy that won majors 16 and 17 after the age of 40 still is the GOAT :smiley:

 

Dealing with fans would drive me batty which I am sure would show in my face. Also pretty stone faced when competitive. Also I believe in tough love when it comes to golf so no one would be mistaking me for MK.

[Darth Putter]

The GOAT choked in the very first golf tournament I ever watched, the 1977 Masters. He hit his approach on the 72nd so badly, it barely made the front bunker.

 

Tiger should have done what I normally do: accidentally blade it, hit short of the bunker, bounce high in the air and land softly next to the cup for an easy birdie.