SIM Drivers: Can only hit cuts and can't close the face!

dlow206 · September 1, 2020

Has anyone gotten the formula with the SIM Max to avoid the right of right miss?

More upright makes sense. But i also saw mentions of upright + open + higher backweight. Has anyone tried this specifically with the SIM Max?

jjmurry · September 5, 2020

On 9/1/2020 at 4:47 PM, dlow206 said:

Has anyone gotten the formula with the SIM Max to avoid the right of right miss?

More upright makes sense. But i also saw mentions of upright + open + higher backweight. Has anyone tried this specifically with the SIM Max?

Playing the max right now and have fallen in love with the upright + open + higher back weight. The club has become "workable" in that I can play either a draw or fade should I desire to.

joshfisher · September 5, 2020

I am about to give up on this driver. 9* sim max. 2 diff shafts. Accra rpg 472 m5+ or VA slay 75x. 2 way miss with both, but usually high cuts. Super long but not as accurate as g410 lst 9 with accra rpg as well. Will try my hulk 70 6.5 tx at upright setting and more lead tape to get to d7.

dlow206 · September 8, 2020

I saw a post on another thread about the placement of the backweight on the SIM and SIM Max. If you draw a straight line from where the weight is to the face, it is definitely more toe sided and not centered. On the SIM Max, given that the weight location is not adjustable, would decreasing the backweight allow for the face to close faster? (assuming swingweight doesn't start to become an issue from reducing the weight)

getitdaily · September 8, 2020

46 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

I saw a post on another thread about the placement of the backweight on the SIM and SIM Max. If you draw a straight line from where the weight is to the face, it is definitely more toe sided and not centered. On the SIM Max, given that the weight location is not adjustable, would decreasing the backweight allow for the face to close faster? (assuming swingweight doesn't start to become an issue from reducing the weight)

Not likely. "By the book" a heavier back weight would cause the head/ face to rotate more closed at impact unless you had a stiff enough shaft that reduced shaft deflection. In this case, a stiffer shaft with a lighter weight should lead to even more right misses since the face "should " be more open.

The weight position makes the driver fade biased because of gear effect. Toe biased weight (CoG) makes the driver impart fade spin. For a drawer, that fade bias will reduce draw spin. For a fader, it will increase fade spin. You can decrease fade bias by putting a lighter weight in the back. But you then have to worry about swingweight and the impact on delivery of an altered swingweight. You can reduce the back weight and then slap lead tape on the heel.

dlow206 · September 8, 2020

24 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Not likely. "By the book" a heavier back weight would cause the head/ face to rotate more closed at impact unless you had a stiff enough shaft that reduced shaft deflection. In this case, a stiffer shaft with a lighter weight should lead to even more right misses since the face "should " be more open.

The weight position makes the driver fade biased because of gear effect. Toe biased weight (CoG) makes the driver impart fade spin. For a drawer, that fade bias will reduce draw spin. For a fader, it will increase fade spin. You can decrease fade bias by putting a lighter weight in the back. But you then have to worry about swingweight and the impact on delivery of an altered swingweight. You can reduce the back weight and then slap lead tape on the heel.

Thanks. Going to see what happens if I reduce the weight, as an experiment. I measured the swingweight and it is currently at D5-ish because there is a bit of hot melt in there.

getitdaily · September 8, 2020

16 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

Thanks. Going to see what happens if I reduce the weight, as an experiment. I measured the swingweight and it is currently at D5-ish because there is a bit of hot melt in there.

Where is the melt positioned?

dlow206 · September 8, 2020

Just now, getitdaily said:

Where is the melt positioned?

4 grams centered but slightly more towards heel. I didn't do it myself, but that is what i had asked for.

The overall swingweight may be too high for me in general, so interested to see what happens at a lower swingweight.

Lasorcier · September 13, 2020

Okay, I will weigh in on this topic. A little background:

First post. I am left handed, but will convert everything below to right-handed parlance. I am in the habit of reversing directions when I read forum posts and it is second nature to do that, whereas for a right handers it might not be.

Generally a straight driver. Up until the SIM, I had been using a G400 regular in 10.5 and it has been very reliable and nothing had yet been able to unseat it except for G410, which is more forgiving. My miss with the G400 is going to be the low heel spinner that is usually fairway, but has distance removed as a result. My average distance as per Garmin Golf app is 271 with the G400. Also as per Garmin Golf, the fairway percent with the G400 is 58%, left is 32% and right is 11%. So, i rarely miss the fairway due to a slice. I will have missed it usually to a dead straight pull (not bad enough for trees - usually in the right rough somewhere). On average I have a positive angle of attack of 2.4 degrees as per Club Champion, which squares with data i get from Top Tracer app. I have a neutral grip on Tour Velvet +4 2 wraps and driver SS of 107 on average.

Enter me going to Club Champion to experiment and see whether the shaft in the G400 is the right one (Ping Tour 65 X-flex). They fit me into a Ping Arna putter with fantastic results. I had been hitting some low heel spinners and was curious as to that could be alleviated to some degree.

Well, we do the hitting a bunch of shafts thing and it essentially turns into a driver fitting. Not sure how it got that way, but I think it was because my spin was high and we experimented to get it down. . I hit a few drivers as below:

PXG something. Okay feel. Similar to G400 (meaning not enough difference to upgrade to it)
Mavrik. I don't like the setup, sound or feel of it and could tell within a couple of shots it wouldn't work. I admittedly don't like Callaway stuff. Don't know why, they have just never worked for me.
Cobra. This one did okay. Similar to G400.
Titleist. Good feel, setup and sound. (I have generally had ping and titleist drivers over the last 25 years). Similar to G400.
SIM. Hits a ton as per launch monitor. Not a fan of the dead sound (I am weird in that I like metallic crack sound). Average distance was 13 yards higher, so I paid attention. Oh wait, I happen to hit it best with a Ventus Blue 6.5x Velocore.

So, that is what we do. I get it and its pretty. I want to like it. So, this is a SIM 9 degree. Ventus Blue 6.5X Velocore. Length is 45.25 inches, Tour Velvet +4 2 wraps, similar to the ping setup.

I go to the range right before its maiden voyage at the course. The very first shot was a slice to the right and we are talking a major slice. Next few do the same and I had to do some modification to my setup to get it straight. Go to the course and as is always true of the maiden round, I drove it very well and also long. No problems.

All subsequent rounds and range times have been slices. Can't figure it out. It feels like I just cannot close the face at all. As per Garmin, my fairway is 27%, right is 59% and left is 13%.

So, I do all of the fiddling around with settings to get an upright lie angle, move the weight to draw. Nada. Do the opposite. Nada. Tour 65X helps slightly, but not enough. I go back to club champion and he puts me on one click away from "highest" on the upright side. On the monitor, it shows me hitting shots down the left side of the fairway dead straight. He called these bullets and said that it what I should be after with this thing. Shots that were not low bullets were in the middle of the fairway or left side as per their virtual hole deal.

Go back to play. Same problem. At this point, I had decided too keep the G400 in the bag for this possibility. So, I go back to G400. I also have a G410 that also produces great results as to the 400 (the difference for me is sound, interestingly enough). So, I had been playing with the G410/G400 in place of the SIM. I am stubborn, in that i wanted to figure out this problem (i.e., why do I hit these so well but the SIM so horribly?)

Just going from feel, I could feel that the face just could not close and that was consistent. What felt like a good shot started to the right and continued that way. What felt like a really good shot would be dead straight, until the end where it would fade just a little bit (baby fade). So, I was always flirting with slice and had to live in fear of that and control for it. I don't want to live that way when I can take the G400/G410 and literally walk up and hit it to a good result. So, I removed the shaft and just concentrated on feeling the club head and how it was weighted. It feels to me there is just so much weight on the outside of the center of gravity that I am not sure how the club face can even close. Anything toward the heel-side of the sweet spot is absolute death and I think the weighting promotes that.

So, I did this: removed the back weight completely. Went back to stated loft, upright lie. Sliding weight thingy (which i am not convinced they work anyway) in the middle (i.e., the "short" ridge in the middle). I played yesterday and used it on hole 10 to experiment and it was very straight with no fade thing at the end of it even. Went to Top Tracer last night (son wanted to practice). I hit straight with it and even can feel the face close. My launch angles were hovering in the 10-13 degree range, with 12 being very common. Trajectory was good and they were normal appearing shots (i.e., not low bullets). I am playing today, so I will further update as to how this is going. I will note that the clubs feels slightly lighter, but not enough for me to lead-tape it.

I will also say that the alignment of the club itself is weird. By that I mean that the face of the club does not align with the front edge of the white strip, which does not align with the back edge of the white strip (i.e., none are parallel with each other in any respect). This goofs with my mind, I think. The G400/G410 are very square to me, which I am concluding is a big deal to me on a subconscious level.

So, things I think I learned (and feel free to correct me!):

G400 is an exceptional driver.
G410 is an exceptional driver. The forgiveness on this is even better than the G400 and slightly longer.
SIM cannot produce a draw ever (at least for me)
Never buy a club based off of a launch monitor again
On a subconscious level, how a driver appears to your eye at address is a major deal
You cannot hit this on the heel at all or it is BAD and that is this club's primary failing and I think the weight being so far outside encourages this.
Tee the ball higher. I use the tees with the color bands and use blue where the ground is the midpoint of the blue.

I will probably get rid of this club, but I want to be able to master this before I do, because it simply irks me. The consistent performance with the G400/G410 is just stupid and I was equally stupid for chasing a few extra yards.

Hope that helps with figuring out the rights.

Valtiel · September 13, 2020

38 minutes ago, Lasorcier said:

Okay, I will weigh in on this topic. A little background:

First post. I am left handed, but will convert everything below to right-handed parlance. I am in the habit of reversing directions when I read forum posts and it is second nature to do that, whereas for a right handers it might not be.

Generally a straight driver. Up until the SIM, I had been using a G400 regular in 10.5 and it has been very reliable and nothing had yet been able to unseat it except for G410, which is more forgiving. My miss with the G400 is going to be the low heel spinner that is usually fairway, but has distance removed as a result. My average distance as per Garmin Golf app is 271 with the G400. Also as per Garmin Golf, the fairway percent with the G400 is 58%, left is 32% and right is 11%. So, i rarely miss the fairway due to a slice. I will have missed it usually to a dead straight pull (not bad enough for trees - usually in the right rough somewhere). On average I have a positive angle of attack of 2.4 degrees as per Club Champion, which squares with data i get from Top Tracer app. I have a neutral grip on Tour Velvet +4 2 wraps and driver SS of 107 on average.

Enter me going to Club Champion to experiment and see whether the shaft in the G400 is the right one (Ping Tour 65 X-flex). They fit me into a Ping Arna putter with fantastic results. I had been hitting some low heel spinners and was curious as to that could be alleviated to some degree.

Well, we do the hitting a bunch of shafts thing and it essentially turns into a driver fitting. Not sure how it got that way, but I think it was because my spin was high and we experimented to get it down. . I hit a few drivers as below:

PXG something. Okay feel. Similar to G400 (meaning not enough difference to upgrade to it)

Mavrik. I don't like the setup, sound or feel of it and could tell within a couple of shots it wouldn't work. I admittedly don't like Callaway stuff. Don't know why, they have just never worked for me.

Cobra. This one did okay. Similar to G400.

Titleist. Good feel, setup and sound. (I have generally had ping and titleist drivers over the last 25 years). Similar to G400.

SIM. Hits a ton as per launch monitor. Not a fan of the dead sound (I am weird in that I like metallic crack sound). Average distance was 13 yards higher, so I paid attention. Oh wait, I happen to hit it best with a Ventus Blue 6.5x Velocore.

So, that is what we do. I get it and its pretty. I want to like it. So, this is a SIM 9 degree. Ventus Blue 6.5X Velocore. Length is 45.25 inches, Tour Velvet +4 2 wraps, similar to the ping setup.

I go to the range right before its maiden voyage at the course. The very first shot was a slice to the right and we are talking a major slice. Next few do the same and I had to do some modification to my setup to get it straight. Go to the course and as is always true of the maiden round, I drove it very well and also long. No problems.

All subsequent rounds and range times have been slices. Can't figure it out. It feels like I just cannot close the face at all. As per Garmin, my fairway is 27%, right is 59% and left is 13%.

So, I do all of the fiddling around with settings to get an upright lie angle, move the weight to draw. Nada. Do the opposite. Nada. Tour 65X helps slightly, but not enough. I go back to club champion and he puts me on one click away from "highest" on the upright side. On the monitor, it shows me hitting shots down the left side of the fairway dead straight. He called these bullets and said that it what I should be after with this thing. Shots that were not low bullets were in the middle of the fairway or left side as per their virtual hole deal.

Go back to play. Same problem. At this point, I had decided too keep the G400 in the bag for this possibility. So, I go back to G400. I also have a G410 that also produces great results as to the 400 (the difference for me is sound, interestingly enough). So, I had been playing with the G410/G400 in place of the SIM. I am stubborn, in that i wanted to figure out this problem (i.e., why do I hit these so well but the SIM so horribly?)

Just going from feel, I could feel that the face just could not close and that was consistent. What felt like a good shot started to the right and continued that way. What felt like a really good shot would be dead straight, until the end where it would fade just a little bit (baby fade). So, I was always flirting with slice and had to live in fear of that and control for it. I don't want to live that way when I can take the G400/G410 and literally walk up and hit it to a good result. So, I removed the shaft and just concentrated on feeling the club head and how it was weighted. It feels to me there is just so much weight on the outside of the center of gravity that I am not sure how the club face can even close. Anything toward the heel-side of the sweet spot is absolute death and I think the weighting promotes that.

So, I did this: removed the back weight completely. Went back to stated loft, upright lie. Sliding weight thingy (which i am not convinced they work anyway) in the middle (i.e., the "short" ridge in the middle). I played yesterday and used it on hole 10 to experiment and it was very straight with no fade thing at the end of it even. Went to Top Tracer last night (son wanted to practice). I hit straight with it and even can feel the face close. My launch angles were hovering in the 10-13 degree range, with 12 being very common. Trajectory was good and they were normal appearing shots (i.e., not low bullets). I am playing today, so I will further update as to how this is going. I will note that the clubs feels slightly lighter, but not enough for me to lead-tape it.

I will also say that the alignment of the club itself is weird. By that I mean that the face of the club does not align with the front edge of the white strip, which does not align with the back edge of the white strip (i.e., none are parallel with each other in any respect). This goofs with my mind, I think. The G400/G410 are very square to me, which I am concluding is a big deal to me on a subconscious level.

So, things I think I learned (and feel free to correct me!):

G400 is an exceptional driver.

G410 is an exceptional driver. The forgiveness on this is even better than the G400 and slightly longer.

SIM cannot produce a draw ever (at least for me)

Never buy a club based off of a launch monitor again

On a subconscious level, how a driver appears to your eye at address is a major deal

You cannot hit this on the heel at all or it is BAD and that is this club's primary failing and I think the weight being so far outside encourages this.

Tee the ball higher. I use the tees with the color bands and use blue where the ground is the midpoint of the blue.

I will probably get rid of this club, but I want to be able to master this before I do, because it simply irks me. The consistent performance with the G400/G410 is just stupid and I was equally stupid for chasing a few extra yards.

Hope that helps with figuring out the rights.

Thanks for sharing your experience! I wanted to ask a few questions, but needed a bit more info on the original G400 setup that works so well. Do you have any other measurements for that one e.g. length, swingweight etc?

I'm curious whether or not the PING is shorter, and the longer length in the SIM was causing issues. It would explain the right misses as well as why dropping a ton of weight from the SIM may have helped. It tends to be easier to swing longer and/or heavier clubs on a flatter plane and come more from the inside (not good for a right miss) and dropping weight or cutting length can neutralize your path or even bring it outside. The SIM is also going to be more punishing on mishits, ESPECIALLY with that back weight gone, so that heel miss will be worse.

If my hunch is accurate, you may consider putting the weight back and shortening the SIM instead as an experiment.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Valtiel

Lasorcier · September 13, 2020

Absolutely. Here is my WITB:

Ping Arna putter delofted to 1/4 degree loft

Ping Glide 3.0 56

Cleveland Smart Sole C (yes i will publicly admit to this - great club)

i500 4-U standard everything

Ping Crossover 3

SIM 5w (the heavy one with the silver plate thing on the bottom) lofted down to lowest setting and black shaft (think its diamana). AWESOME club.

Ping G400, 10.5 degree lofted down to 9.5 degree. Tour 65X Shaft, Standard length of 45.25". Strike point is an oval starting from center to upper toe, but generally in the blank spot and not out to the grooves. I'll see if i can take a pic of it. A little lead tape on the toe side of the bottom that they put on at Club Champion to "hold me over" until the sim came. Seems to work. From the purchase order on the sim it is D4 and he matched the G400 to that swingweight.

Ping G410, 9.0 degree at standard upright lie, Tour 65X Shaft, Standard length 45.25". Strike point is same as G400.

SIM 9 degree, lofted as described in the post above (Upright lie, standard loft, slider at factory setting.

The G400 and SIM are at exact length. 45.25". No idea on the 410, but I would have to assume the same.

All are tour velvet +4 standard (7 through wedges are 3 wraps, 6 and prior are two)

Smooth swing generally. No forward press on any clubs (not sure if that makes a difference to this discussion)

I think you are right on mishits being punishing with the SIM. admittedly last night, I did not have a heel impact so I will have to test that today. With the SIM I do everything to avoid the heel. As a side note, toe shots seem to be pretty good.

Valtiel · September 13, 2020

1 minute ago, Lasorcier said:

Absolutely. Here is my WITB:

Ping Arna putter delofted to 1/4 degree loft

Ping Glide 3.0 56

Cleveland Smart Sole C (yes i will publicly admit to this - great club)

i500 4-U standard everything

Ping Crossover 3

SIM 5w (the heavy one with the silver plate thing on the bottom) lofted down to lowest setting and black shaft (think its diamana). AWESOME club.

Ping G400, 10.5 degree lofted down to 9.5 degree. Tour 65X Shaft, Standard length of 45.25". Strike point is an oval starting from center to upper toe, but generally in the blank spot and not out to the grooves. I'll see if i can take a pic of it. A little lead tape on the toe side of the bottom that they put on at Club Champion to "hold me over" until the sim came. Seems to work. From the purchase order on the sim it is D4 and he matched the G400 to that swingweight.

Ping G410, 9.0 degree at standard upright lie, Tour 65X Shaft, Standard length 45.25". Strike point is same as G400.

SIM 9 degree, lofted as described in the post above (Upright lie, standard loft, slider at factory setting.

The G400 and SIM are at exact length. 45.25". No idea on the 410, but I would have to assume the same.

All are tour velvet +4 standard (7 through wedges are 3 wraps, 6 and prior are two)

Smooth swing generally. No forward press on any clubs (not sure if that makes a difference to this discussion)

I think you are right on mishits being punishing with the SIM. admittedly last night, I did not have a heel impact so I will have to test that today. With the SIM I do everything to avoid the heel. As a side note, toe shots seem to be pretty good.

Thanks for that! It really does seem like you have minimized most of the spec related variables between the clubs then, aside from the difference in shaft, but you mentioned swapping there as well. Looking at the actual CG locations for the clubs, the G400 Standard is very neutral in its fade/draw bias, whereas the SIM is known to be very fade biased. Moving the sliding weight in to the heel would help neutralize this though (Sergio does this) which you mentioned trying as well (it does work, but the influence here is strike related). This also explains why toe strikes are doing well for you; the fade bias of the SIM means the CG is shifted slightly towards the toe, which means toe strike related woes (spin drop, hooks etc) will be reduced a little.

I really would be curious to see club path data though and whether or not you are actually delivering the club the same and are simply leaving the SIM open. I do agree with you about the lines at address though, there are some funky things going on there that can mess with your head.

As a side note, I have a SIM 5w just like yours on the way to use for the same exact purpose; lofting down to the lowest setting to use as a power 4w at a shorter playing length. It's actually a tour issue one that has an actual measured loft 1* stronger than stock, so i'll be able to loft it all the way down to 16* if I want. Should be fun!

Lasorcier · September 14, 2020

Okay, some results from today. Shot a 75, so score was okay (Par 70). This was miracle hill golf course, which is a bit back and forth, but is tree lined and bad drivers will have a bad day. Rough was long, so little roll-out if it is hit there. Hit 9 of 13 fairways, but one of those is with a 3-crossover (Hit that 221 and dead straight) and another is with the Godly SIM 5w lofted down (Hit that 244 from a tee and dead straight). I hit both fairways with those. So, with the drivers it was 7 out of 11 fairways. Holes:

1. Par 4, no danger. Actually made it draw. SIM goes 256 yards in the right rough and had to deal with a tree directly in my line by bailing in the fairways as close to the green as possible. So, this is a miss for the SIM. Bogey

4. Par 5 with water running down the whole left side. Not chancing the SIM, so used G410. 270 center of fairway. Straight flight. Par.

5. Par 4, no danger. Made a bad G410 swing. The heely spinner that loses distance and bleeds left slightly. Goes 225, left side of fairway. Bogey

7. Par 4, no danger. 247 with G410. It landed right over a bunker that juts out into the fairway with thick rough behind it for 5 yards or so, which just killed any roll-out, but it did get to the fairway before it died. Good strike. Par.

8. Par 4, no danger. 259 SIM in fairway with straight flight and no fade at the end. Par.

9. Par 4, no danger. 259 with SIM in left rough about 5 yards in. Had fade at the end of it, but primarily straight. Par.

10. Par 4, no danger. 284 with G410. Inside the left rough about a yard. Straight flight. Bogey.

12. Par 5, no danger. 224 with SIM. Straight flight. The SIM 5-wood goes further than the drive on my 2nd shot. Birdie.

13. Par 4, OB on right. Not chancing the SIM. G410 goes 268 center of fairway. Straight flight. Par.

16. Par 4, no danger. G410 goes 261, right rough about 5 yards in. Little bit of draw to it. I try to avoid left on this hole because the trees are thicker on the left side. Bogey

17. Par 5, no danger. SIM goes 268 in the fairway with straight flight with the 5 yard fade thing at the end. Make the green in 2 and have a 12 foot eagle putt. Miss it by a few inches, but get the bird.

So, it seems removing the weight got it straighter, albeit at the cost of distance. Today was not my best day, swing-wise. So, I hit some balls tonight and took some vids of strike pattern and swing. I'll try to upload those. What I noticed was the G410 strike pattern was pretty consistent with what I stated before. The SIM strike pattern was okay, but had some heelies which are most definitely punished. If the club face is open, even with center strike, those get punished as well. But overall the G410 pattern is much tighter as compared to the SIM.

I am thinking the club may be slightly too short in accordance with what you wrote above. I would probably be inclined to experiment with weights, but the site that sells SIM weights (bob's golf or something like that) indicates that they are right-handed weights and they don't sell left handed ones. I had no idea there was a difference. They look mostly symmetrical when I look at the actual weight, but the site indicates they might fit weird in a left-handed SIM.

You will love that SIM 5 wood. Best fairway club I think I have ever hit. Not leaving the bag for many years.

Okay, so the target on the video is the Top Golf net you can see in the distance. SIM was a bit on the toe, but that is because i avoid the heel at all costs with it. That one drew back to target. The draw became much easier after I ditched the weight in the rear.

One minor complaint is that the face of the SIM dings easily due to sand or whatever, whereas the G410 and G400 are more or less bulletproof

pinhigh27 · September 14, 2020

7 minutes ago, Lasorcier said:

Okay, some results from today. Shot a 75, so score was okay (Par 70). This was miracle hill golf course, which is a bit back and forth, but is tree lined and bad drivers will have a bad day. Rough was long, so little roll-out if it is hit there. Hit 9 of 13 fairways, but one of those is with a 3-crossover (Hit that 221 and dead straight) and another is with the Godly SIM 5w lofted down (Hit that 244 from a tee and dead straight). I hit both fairways with those. So, with the drivers it was 7 out of 11 fairways. Holes:

1. Par 4, no danger. Actually made it draw. SIM goes 256 yards in the right rough and had to deal with a tree directly in my line by bailing in the fairways as close to the green as possible. So, this is a miss for the SIM. Bogey

4. Par 5 with water running down the whole left side. Not chancing the SIM, so used G410. 270 center of fairway. Straight flight. Par.

5. Par 4, no danger. Made a bad G410 swing. The heely spinner that loses distance and bleeds left slightly. Goes 225, left side of fairway. Bogey

7. Par 4, no danger. 247 with G410. It landed right over a bunker that juts out into the fairway with thick rough behind it for 5 yards or so, which just killed any roll-out, but it did get to the fairway before it died. Good strike. Par.

8. Par 4, no danger. 259 SIM in fairway with straight flight and no fade at the end. Par.

9. Par 4, no danger. 259 with SIM in left rough about 5 yards in. Had fade at the end of it, but primarily straight. Par.

10. Par 4, no danger. 284 with G410. Inside the left rough about a yard. Straight flight. Bogey.

12. Par 5, no danger. 224 with SIM. Straight flight. The SIM 5-wood goes further than the drive on my 2nd shot. Birdie.

13. Par 4, OB on right. Not chancing the SIM. G410 goes 268 center of fairway. Straight flight. Par.

16. Par 4, no danger. G410 goes 261, right rough about 5 yards in. Little bit of draw to it. I try to avoid left on this hole because the trees are thicker on the left side. Bogey

17. Par 5, no danger. SIM goes 268 in the fairway with straight flight with the 5 yard fade thing at the end. Make the green in 2 and have a 12 foot eagle putt. Miss it by a few inches, but get the bird.

So, it seems removing the weight got it straighter, albeit at the cost of distance. Today was not my best day, swing-wise. So, I hit some balls tonight and took some vids of strike pattern and swing. I'll try to upload those. What I noticed was the G410 strike pattern was pretty consistent with what I stated before. The SIM strike pattern was okay, but had some heelies which are most definitely punished. If the club face is open, even with center strike, those get punished as well. But overall the G410 pattern is much tighter as compared to the SIM.

I am thinking the club may be slightly too short in accordance with what you wrote above. I would probably be inclined to experiment with weights, but the site that sells SIM weights (bob's golf or something like that) indicates that they are right-handed weights and they don't sell left handed ones. I had no idea there was a difference. They look mostly symmetrical when I look at the actual weight, but the site indicates they might fit weird in a left-handed SIM.

You will love that SIM 5 wood. Best fairway club I think I have ever hit. Not leaving the bag for many years.

Okay, so the target on the video is the Top Golf net you can see in the distance. SIM was a bit on the toe, but that is because i avoid the heel at all costs with it. That one drew back to target. The draw became much easier after I ditched the weight in the rear.

One minor complaint is that the face of the SIM dings easily due to sand or whatever, whereas the G410 and G400 are more or less bulletproof

It’s interesting you say your miss is heel because the wear mark on ping seems pretty heel sided. Wonder if you’re one of the people that twist face doesn’t work well for.

getitdaily · September 14, 2020

9 hours ago, Lasorcier said:

Okay, some results from today. Shot a 75, so score was okay (Par 70). This was miracle hill golf course, which is a bit back and forth, but is tree lined and bad drivers will have a bad day. Rough was long, so little roll-out if it is hit there. Hit 9 of 13 fairways, but one of those is with a 3-crossover (Hit that 221 and dead straight) and another is with the Godly SIM 5w lofted down (Hit that 244 from a tee and dead straight). I hit both fairways with those. So, with the drivers it was 7 out of 11 fairways. Holes:

1. Par 4, no danger. Actually made it draw. SIM goes 256 yards in the right rough and had to deal with a tree directly in my line by bailing in the fairways as close to the green as possible. So, this is a miss for the SIM. Bogey

4. Par 5 with water running down the whole left side. Not chancing the SIM, so used G410. 270 center of fairway. Straight flight. Par.

5. Par 4, no danger. Made a bad G410 swing. The heely spinner that loses distance and bleeds left slightly. Goes 225, left side of fairway. Bogey

7. Par 4, no danger. 247 with G410. It landed right over a bunker that juts out into the fairway with thick rough behind it for 5 yards or so, which just killed any roll-out, but it did get to the fairway before it died. Good strike. Par.

8. Par 4, no danger. 259 SIM in fairway with straight flight and no fade at the end. Par.

9. Par 4, no danger. 259 with SIM in left rough about 5 yards in. Had fade at the end of it, but primarily straight. Par.

10. Par 4, no danger. 284 with G410. Inside the left rough about a yard. Straight flight. Bogey.

12. Par 5, no danger. 224 with SIM. Straight flight. The SIM 5-wood goes further than the drive on my 2nd shot. Birdie.

13. Par 4, OB on right. Not chancing the SIM. G410 goes 268 center of fairway. Straight flight. Par.

16. Par 4, no danger. G410 goes 261, right rough about 5 yards in. Little bit of draw to it. I try to avoid left on this hole because the trees are thicker on the left side. Bogey

17. Par 5, no danger. SIM goes 268 in the fairway with straight flight with the 5 yard fade thing at the end. Make the green in 2 and have a 12 foot eagle putt. Miss it by a few inches, but get the bird.

So, it seems removing the weight got it straighter, albeit at the cost of distance. Today was not my best day, swing-wise. So, I hit some balls tonight and took some vids of strike pattern and swing. I'll try to upload those. What I noticed was the G410 strike pattern was pretty consistent with what I stated before. The SIM strike pattern was okay, but had some heelies which are most definitely punished. If the club face is open, even with center strike, those get punished as well. But overall the G410 pattern is much tighter as compared to the SIM.

I am thinking the club may be slightly too short in accordance with what you wrote above. I would probably be inclined to experiment with weights, but the site that sells SIM weights (bob's golf or something like that) indicates that they are right-handed weights and they don't sell left handed ones. I had no idea there was a difference. They look mostly symmetrical when I look at the actual weight, but the site indicates they might fit weird in a left-handed SIM.

You will love that SIM 5 wood. Best fairway club I think I have ever hit. Not leaving the bag for many years.

Okay, so the target on the video is the Top Golf net you can see in the distance. SIM was a bit on the toe, but that is because i avoid the heel at all costs with it. That one drew back to target. The draw became much easier after I ditched the weight in the rear.

One minor complaint is that the face of the SIM dings easily due to sand or whatever, whereas the G410 and G400 are more or less bulletproof

You've either got a bad shaft fit, bad length fit, or bad swingweight fit with the sim. Look at your strike consistency with the ping. Very small impact spot. Look at sim...you're all over the face.

dlow206 · September 14, 2020

12 hours ago, Lasorcier said:

Okay, some results from today. Shot a 75, so score was okay (Par 70). This was miracle hill golf course, which is a bit back and forth, but is tree lined and bad drivers will have a bad day. Rough was long, so little roll-out if it is hit there. Hit 9 of 13 fairways, but one of those is with a 3-crossover (Hit that 221 and dead straight) and another is with the Godly SIM 5w lofted down (Hit that 244 from a tee and dead straight). I hit both fairways with those. So, with the drivers it was 7 out of 11 fairways. Holes:

1. Par 4, no danger. Actually made it draw. SIM goes 256 yards in the right rough and had to deal with a tree directly in my line by bailing in the fairways as close to the green as possible. So, this is a miss for the SIM. Bogey

4. Par 5 with water running down the whole left side. Not chancing the SIM, so used G410. 270 center of fairway. Straight flight. Par.

5. Par 4, no danger. Made a bad G410 swing. The heely spinner that loses distance and bleeds left slightly. Goes 225, left side of fairway. Bogey

7. Par 4, no danger. 247 with G410. It landed right over a bunker that juts out into the fairway with thick rough behind it for 5 yards or so, which just killed any roll-out, but it did get to the fairway before it died. Good strike. Par.

8. Par 4, no danger. 259 SIM in fairway with straight flight and no fade at the end. Par.

9. Par 4, no danger. 259 with SIM in left rough about 5 yards in. Had fade at the end of it, but primarily straight. Par.

10. Par 4, no danger. 284 with G410. Inside the left rough about a yard. Straight flight. Bogey.

12. Par 5, no danger. 224 with SIM. Straight flight. The SIM 5-wood goes further than the drive on my 2nd shot. Birdie.

13. Par 4, OB on right. Not chancing the SIM. G410 goes 268 center of fairway. Straight flight. Par.

16. Par 4, no danger. G410 goes 261, right rough about 5 yards in. Little bit of draw to it. I try to avoid left on this hole because the trees are thicker on the left side. Bogey

17. Par 5, no danger. SIM goes 268 in the fairway with straight flight with the 5 yard fade thing at the end. Make the green in 2 and have a 12 foot eagle putt. Miss it by a few inches, but get the bird.

So, it seems removing the weight got it straighter, albeit at the cost of distance. Today was not my best day, swing-wise. So, I hit some balls tonight and took some vids of strike pattern and swing. I'll try to upload those. What I noticed was the G410 strike pattern was pretty consistent with what I stated before. The SIM strike pattern was okay, but had some heelies which are most definitely punished. If the club face is open, even with center strike, those get punished as well. But overall the G410 pattern is much tighter as compared to the SIM.

I am thinking the club may be slightly too short in accordance with what you wrote above. I would probably be inclined to experiment with weights, but the site that sells SIM weights (bob's golf or something like that) indicates that they are right-handed weights and they don't sell left handed ones. I had no idea there was a difference. They look mostly symmetrical when I look at the actual weight, but the site indicates they might fit weird in a left-handed SIM.

You will love that SIM 5 wood. Best fairway club I think I have ever hit. Not leaving the bag for many years.

Okay, so the target on the video is the Top Golf net you can see in the distance. SIM was a bit on the toe, but that is because i avoid the heel at all costs with it. That one drew back to target. The draw became much easier after I ditched the weight in the rear.

One minor complaint is that the face of the SIM dings easily due to sand or whatever, whereas the G410 and G400 are more or less bulletproof

Interesting experiment. In my SIM Max, for my next round, I am going to take out the stock 17g weight and put in a 9g weight. See how that changes things, without entirely removing the backweight.

Valtiel · September 14, 2020

14 hours ago, Lasorcier said:

Okay, some results from today. Shot a 75, so score was okay (Par 70). This was miracle hill golf course, which is a bit back and forth, but is tree lined and bad drivers will have a bad day. Rough was long, so little roll-out if it is hit there. Hit 9 of 13 fairways, but one of those is with a 3-crossover (Hit that 221 and dead straight) and another is with the Godly SIM 5w lofted down (Hit that 244 from a tee and dead straight). I hit both fairways with those. So, with the drivers it was 7 out of 11 fairways. Holes:

1. Par 4, no danger. Actually made it draw. SIM goes 256 yards in the right rough and had to deal with a tree directly in my line by bailing in the fairways as close to the green as possible. So, this is a miss for the SIM. Bogey

4. Par 5 with water running down the whole left side. Not chancing the SIM, so used G410. 270 center of fairway. Straight flight. Par.

5. Par 4, no danger. Made a bad G410 swing. The heely spinner that loses distance and bleeds left slightly. Goes 225, left side of fairway. Bogey

7. Par 4, no danger. 247 with G410. It landed right over a bunker that juts out into the fairway with thick rough behind it for 5 yards or so, which just killed any roll-out, but it did get to the fairway before it died. Good strike. Par.

8. Par 4, no danger. 259 SIM in fairway with straight flight and no fade at the end. Par.

9. Par 4, no danger. 259 with SIM in left rough about 5 yards in. Had fade at the end of it, but primarily straight. Par.

10. Par 4, no danger. 284 with G410. Inside the left rough about a yard. Straight flight. Bogey.

12. Par 5, no danger. 224 with SIM. Straight flight. The SIM 5-wood goes further than the drive on my 2nd shot. Birdie.

13. Par 4, OB on right. Not chancing the SIM. G410 goes 268 center of fairway. Straight flight. Par.

16. Par 4, no danger. G410 goes 261, right rough about 5 yards in. Little bit of draw to it. I try to avoid left on this hole because the trees are thicker on the left side. Bogey

17. Par 5, no danger. SIM goes 268 in the fairway with straight flight with the 5 yard fade thing at the end. Make the green in 2 and have a 12 foot eagle putt. Miss it by a few inches, but get the bird.

So, it seems removing the weight got it straighter, albeit at the cost of distance. Today was not my best day, swing-wise. So, I hit some balls tonight and took some vids of strike pattern and swing. I'll try to upload those. What I noticed was the G410 strike pattern was pretty consistent with what I stated before. The SIM strike pattern was okay, but had some heelies which are most definitely punished. If the club face is open, even with center strike, those get punished as well. But overall the G410 pattern is much tighter as compared to the SIM.

I am thinking the club may be slightly too short in accordance with what you wrote above. I would probably be inclined to experiment with weights, but the site that sells SIM weights (bob's golf or something like that) indicates that they are right-handed weights and they don't sell left handed ones. I had no idea there was a difference. They look mostly symmetrical when I look at the actual weight, but the site indicates they might fit weird in a left-handed SIM.

You will love that SIM 5 wood. Best fairway club I think I have ever hit. Not leaving the bag for many years.

Okay, so the target on the video is the Top Golf net you can see in the distance. SIM was a bit on the toe, but that is because i avoid the heel at all costs with it. That one drew back to target. The draw became much easier after I ditched the weight in the rear.

One minor complaint is that the face of the SIM dings easily due to sand or whatever, whereas the G410 and G400 are more or less bulletproof

Thank you for the breakdown and the videos. I agree with @getitdailyabove and I think there is enough information here to break most of that down:

The wide variation in strike quality, the corresponding and equal variation in distance and overall performance, and some things visible in your videos are all pointing at some super common mechanical issues that will, as most mechanical issues do, manifest the most severely in the longer clubs.

I wanted to start with the mechanical here and work towards the equipment. Per the screenshot above, this is classic "early extension/out of sequence" position which is a product of initiating the downswing with the hands/arms as opposed to the lower body and is indicated visually by the loss of posture/standing up at impact, stalled hips that have been overtaken by the hands and arms (your hips don't reach the position they should be at impact until well into your follow through), and rapid face closure/"flipping" at and through impact, as seen by your bottom hand overtaking the top and the very closed face immediately after impact. All if this is important because it places an exaggerated amount of pressure on your ability to time the strike with your hands, and the impacts all over the face on the SIM show that you're struggling to do that there.

That obviously begs the question "why the problems with the SIM and not the G410?". I imagine your swing is probably the same with the G410, but the pressure this mechanical issue puts on your timing and hands means you will be more susceptible to the little things that impact your feel and your confidence, and that can come down to things as small as how the driver sets up/looks at address, as that can directly influence your confidence in releasing the club. I'd be willing to bet that removing the weight from the SIM has increased your rate of face closure which has helped your release, but it looks like it has compromised your ability to strike the ball consistently, a common symptom of too little weight.

If you can, I would recommend experimenting heavily with face angle on the SIM. Crank it all the way up, all the way down, and everywhere in between. Ignore loft and launch completely and just see if that influences your ability to release the club. Ultimately you will need to address the mechanical issues as that is the root of the problem here, but it helps to understand what bandaids do and do not work as well. The fact that you are a low single digit handicap means you are compensating for this in other areas, and likely have good hand eye coordination that helps cover the mechanical issues. That indicates a level of talent that with the proper corrections to the overall issue could very well propel you into the plus handicap range if you're diligent.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Valtiel

Hack Daddy · September 14, 2020

Because, like most drivers, the SIM is too FLAT.

ignitewvu · September 14, 2020

On 9/8/2020 at 12:57 PM, getitdaily said:

Where is the melt positioned?

I put my melt right in the area inside of the "Sound Port" in the hosel. Heel side mid/front.

Lasorcier · September 15, 2020

Valtiel, that was a very good response and it is much appreciated. So, I pondered this a bit and went to the range tonight to apply some of what I had thought based on what you said above. As further background:

Have never had a formal lesson and I should consider that based on what you said. It has been self-taught over the years;
Driver History from most recent to oldest, SIM, G410, epic flash, G400, G15, ISI, Titleist 975D, then can't remember;
Iron History from most recent to oldest, i500, ISI BeCu (22 years i think), Burner Midsize (short-lived mistake), Eye 2, Tour Model Eye 2 ripoffs (my first left-handed set -- won't count RH clubs I learned on due to scarcity of LH clubs for kids -- had to make do). Golftec did the i500s at the insistence of another playing partner (i.e., gotta get fitted, dude);
Putter History from most recent to oldest, Ping Arna (fitted by club champion), Newport 2 from like 2004 or so (interestingly enough, those rust, which it is, Anser 2 (1996 or so), Ping 1-A (first putter because it was ambidextrous)
Wedge History, Glide 3.0 56 (only wedge besides the ones in the i500 set), eye 2 wedges (never abandoned them until the i500/glide)
I have been a feel player and purchaser, rather than a technical stuff type of player and purchaser. As an example, I had never been on a monitor until I bought an epic flash driver last year over the G410, simply for a few extra yards on the monitor. That turned out to be a mistake as I hit it well on the monitor, but not so well on the course. It had a peculiar appearance in the sunlight that I did not see in the darkly lit monitor enclosure that goofed with my mind. The dude had to talk me in to using the monitor in the first place, because all I had done was to grab the 410, feel what swinging it felt like, which was good, and headed up to the register (which is also how i bought the G400 as well, except I tried it from a golf partner's 400 LST right handed that felt good for being a right handed club and the shop only had regular G400 in LH). Dude stops me and says I should at least hit it. I hit it good. So then he asks me to try to hit this new callaway epic flash because its awesome. It wasn't. He must get a spiff or something - I have no idea.
You are totally correct in the comment regarding hand/eye coordination and I have no complaints in that department;
I would probably be described as a "handsy" player;
You are totally correct in that I was getting stood up/stalled hips on those vids - I must have slowly slipped into that habit;
You won your bet on the lack of back weight increasing face closure bigtime - it does that bigtime;
I generally have had a pull type swing, rather than a push type of swing

So I hit the range, and am hitting well. I put the weight back in to experiment as per your suggestion. I notice the standing up / seized hips thing you mentioned. So, it dawns on me that if I let go of the club, where would it go? Well, it seems it would go up in the air vertically if I let go of it. So, I experiment with making sure my hands go all the way through the ball (as if I was going to let my club go at the end of my swing and have it do down the fairway rather than up). It was not a switch to a pushing swing, but rather a pulling swing where i make sure the club gets completely through the ball and then a little bit more. The result is very solid contact, much tighter strike pattern on the SIM (also the G410, but the difference was less since i already hit that club good). The SIM was a little bit on the heel, but not much. It was less punishing. Oh and doing this also got the sequence right and hips would not seize but operate smoothly. Shoulder action was better as well, in that my left shoulder (your right) felt like it was going through the ball as well and produced a full follow-through.

Wasn't watching ball flight much as it was getting darkish, but the ones I saw were primarily straight with both clubs. Still experimenting, but much better and will update with real data, rather than the feels.

So, your observations are very much appreciated and I owe you a fee for the lesson sir.

Valtiel · September 15, 2020

12 hours ago, Lasorcier said:

Valtiel, that was a very good response and it is much appreciated. So, I pondered this a bit and went to the range tonight to apply some of what I had thought based on what you said above. As further background:

Have never had a formal lesson and I should consider that based on what you said. It has been self-taught over the years;

Driver History from most recent to oldest, SIM, G410, epic flash, G400, G15, ISI, Titleist 975D, then can't remember;

Iron History from most recent to oldest, i500, ISI BeCu (22 years i think), Burner Midsize (short-lived mistake), Eye 2, Tour Model Eye 2 ripoffs (my first left-handed set -- won't count RH clubs I learned on due to scarcity of LH clubs for kids -- had to make do). Golftec did the i500s at the insistence of another playing partner (i.e., gotta get fitted, dude);

Putter History from most recent to oldest, Ping Arna (fitted by club champion), Newport 2 from like 2004 or so (interestingly enough, those rust, which it is, Anser 2 (1996 or so), Ping 1-A (first putter because it was ambidextrous)

Wedge History, Glide 3.0 56 (only wedge besides the ones in the i500 set), eye 2 wedges (never abandoned them until the i500/glide)

I have been a feel player and purchaser, rather than a technical stuff type of player and purchaser. As an example, I had never been on a monitor until I bought an epic flash driver last year over the G410, simply for a few extra yards on the monitor. That turned out to be a mistake as I hit it well on the monitor, but not so well on the course. It had a peculiar appearance in the sunlight that I did not see in the darkly lit monitor enclosure that goofed with my mind. The dude had to talk me in to using the monitor in the first place, because all I had done was to grab the 410, feel what swinging it felt like, which was good, and headed up to the register (which is also how i bought the G400 as well, except I tried it from a golf partner's 400 LST right handed that felt good for being a right handed club and the shop only had regular G400 in LH). Dude stops me and says I should at least hit it. I hit it good. So then he asks me to try to hit this new callaway epic flash because its awesome. It wasn't. He must get a spiff or something - I have no idea.

You are totally correct in the comment regarding hand/eye coordination and I have no complaints in that department;

I would probably be described as a "handsy" player;

You are totally correct in that I was getting stood up/stalled hips on those vids - I must have slowly slipped into that habit;

You won your bet on the lack of back weight increasing face closure bigtime - it does that bigtime;

I generally have had a pull type swing, rather than a push type of swing

So I hit the range, and am hitting well. I put the weight back in to experiment as per your suggestion. I notice the standing up / seized hips thing you mentioned. So, it dawns on me that if I let go of the club, where would it go? Well, it seems it would go up in the air vertically if I let go of it. So, I experiment with making sure my hands go all the way through the ball (as if I was going to let my club go at the end of my swing and have it do down the fairway rather than up). It was not a switch to a pushing swing, but rather a pulling swing where i make sure the club gets completely through the ball and then a little bit more. The result is very solid contact, much tighter strike pattern on the SIM (also the G410, but the difference was less since i already hit that club good). The SIM was a little bit on the heel, but not much. It was less punishing. Oh and doing this also got the sequence right and hips would not seize but operate smoothly. Shoulder action was better as well, in that my left shoulder (your right) felt like it was going through the ball as well and produced a full follow-through.

Wasn't watching ball flight much as it was getting darkish, but the ones I saw were primarily straight with both clubs. Still experimenting, but much better and will update with real data, rather than the feels.

So, your observations are very much appreciated and I owe you a fee for the lesson sir.

Awesome! I'm glad that was helpful. You and I have a fairly similar trajectory in the sense that I was a largely self taught/feel player as a junior without much instruction, but very good hand eye coordination and flexibility so I could get away with it (was a 1.7 handicap prior to COVID). This lead to some bad habits over the years that really held me back and i've worked really hard to learn about and correct them.

I would leave any real polishing/refining to a qualified professional, but I do have a couple of useful drills to help that really stemmed from hearing so many comments about legs/leg strength and observing some really interesting trends. Justin Thomas saying that his "arms are just along for the ride", Tiger repeating the "legs feed the wolves" quote, and Matthew Wolff talking about his legs and how important they are to his unique delivery. That combined with a youtuber that I follow that does online instruction, him sharing the videos of his various students, and seeing how regardless of the swing type, build, or overall skill level, that almost EVERY single one had the same common thread running through their various issues; the aforementioned out of sequence arm-driven move in the downswing.

The drill I like is simple; feel like your hands and arms do almost nothing but keep the club attached to you and on plane, ESPECIALLY in transition. It can really help give you an exaggerated sense of what it feels like to have your power come from the driving of the lower body and the rubber band effect that the separation between hips and shoulders has in creating that power as opposed to feeling like you're throwing your hands and arms at the ball with your hips trying to play catch up. Hopefully what you can then do with that is flip the focus to loading and unloading your lower body as the primary move in your swing with the upper body reacting naturally to that focus as opposed to the inverse which is what so many people suffer from.

Keep at it and I hope that can reframe your relationship with your driver a bit more!

getitdaily · September 15, 2020

5 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Awesome! I'm glad that was helpful. You and I have a fairly similar trajectory in the sense that I was a largely self taught/feel player as a junior without much instruction, but very good hand eye coordination and flexibility so I could get away with it (was a 1.7 handicap prior to COVID). This lead to some bad habits over the years that really held me back and i've worked really hard to learn about and correct them.

I would leave any real polishing/refining to a qualified professional, but I do have a couple of useful drills to help that really stemmed from hearing so many comments about legs/leg strength and observing some really interesting trends. Justin Thomas saying that his "arms are just along for the ride", Tiger repeating the "legs feed the wolves" quote, and Matthew Wolff talking about his legs and how important they are to his unique delivery. That combined with a youtuber that I follow that does online instruction, him sharing the videos of his various students, and seeing how regardless of the swing type, build, or overall skill level, that almost EVERY single one had the same common thread running through their various issues; the aforementioned out of sequence arm-driven move in the downswing.

The drill I like is simple; feel like your hands and arms do almost nothing but keep the club attached to you and on plane, ESPECIALLY in transition. It can really help give you an exaggerated sense of what it feels like to have your power come from the driving of the lower body and the rubber band effect that the separation between hips and shoulders has in creating that power as opposed to feeling like you're throwing your hands and arms at the ball with your hips trying to play catch up. Hopefully what you can then do with that is flip the focus to loading and unloading your lower body as the primary move in your swing with the upper body reacting naturally to that focus as opposed to the inverse which is what so many people suffer from.

Keep at it and I hope that can reframe your relationship with your driver a bit more!

Lol. I'm literally the exact as you both. I have always had a slight ott move to start the downswing. Definitely an arm driven swing. The last 5 weeks have been a struggle. Easy courses in tournament rounds where I get off to bad starts or have a bad ending. Handicap has definitely crept up the last 2 months. Was a slight + all year but am.likely around a 1 right now (I know, cry me a river). But my last 3 tournament rounds have included 4 holes of double or triple. Just killed the rounds and kept me from winning easy tournaments. Even more frustrating is that my putter came around (back to an anser) the last 2 tournament rounds and I wasted it.

Tournament season is over so my goal for fall and winter is 2fold

1. Stop raising up in the backswing so I don't start the transition with my body already moved toward the ball.

2. Start the downswing with the squat turn transition move to shallow the club and pull the arms through fast.

Getting less of the hands moving toward the ball in transition with more rotation should lead to those 2-3 swings per round that are causing bogies or worse.

Lasorcier · September 16, 2020

Okay, some data and again major props to Valtiel for his excellent observations. I hit the range tonight. I warmed up with 10 wedges or so, 5 six-irons and 5 each of the SIM and G410. I then proceed to footspray each club and hit 20 balls with each. I did 10 in a row of each and alternated. I took pictures at 10 and 20 strikes, which I'll post below. Conditions:

G410 9 degree, standard loft/lie, weight in center.
SIM 9 degree, upright setting, with one click towards higher. I think that is 9.75 degrees loft. Rear weight in and sliding weight thingy still at factory setting.

On the G410, all strikes except for one were in inside the grey bracket area (there is some bleed over to the bracket area, but all spots of first impact were within the bracket with the heelie one right on the bracket. The white area on the heel and upper left are spots where there was too much foot spray and it caked on. The bottom white marks are tee paint. All were good balls except the heelie, which leaked a little bit and was shorter. It would have been slightly in the rough or edge of fairway at this course. The rest were all within 20 yards or so (my estimate).

On the SIM, all strikes except two were within the circle marked by the white dashes. There was a toey one in there (inside the circle still), which drew. The two heelies do what heelies do. They got punished, but not as bad as last time. The range is bordered by trees, which would be probably a 40-50 yard slice to make it into those. They did not enter those. They were about 15 yards off of that, which is acceptable to me. Ball flight on the rest was very good and dispersion was about the same as the G400. I had a couple where the spin was very low and they seemed like they fell out of the sky type of hits, but they were certainly long. G410 had a couple of those too.

So, conclusions on this round:

It was partially the indian on this one and not the arrow. The chief got him fixed and the arrow flew right
Upright setting helps. I experimented with the standard setting (flatter lie) and heelies were severely punished. That was after this sample of 20. The difference is noticeable.
Will leave the weight in. That wasn't the issue. However, removing the rear weight indeed drastically quickens closure of the face
The SIM is longer. My estimate is 10 yards or so. There is a hard berm at 325 yards and a ridge that slants (on the left side it is 270 yards away, center is 290, and right is no longer a ridge). So, most of the shots rolled out to the berm in the center. That seems like acceptable distance. The G410 is close to that, but not quite as close.
The G410 is more forgiving, albeit at the cost of a little bit of distance. Distance loss on SIM heelies was less. So, between these two clubs it seems to be a tradeoff between distance and forgiveness.
Good strikes on the G410 are awesome. Good strikes on the SIM are super awesome.
I will continue to use it, not for sale yet.

PIcs: G410 After 10 Strikes, G410 after 20 Strikes, SIM after 10 Strikes, SIM after 20 Strikes. Had to change angle as it was starting to get a little dark.

getitdaily · September 16, 2020

8 hours ago, Lasorcier said:

Okay, some data and again major props to Valtiel for his excellent observations. I hit the range tonight. I warmed up with 10 wedges or so, 5 six-irons and 5 each of the SIM and G410. I then proceed to footspray each club and hit 20 balls with each. I did 10 in a row of each and alternated. I took pictures at 10 and 20 strikes, which I'll post below. Conditions:

G410 9 degree, standard loft/lie, weight in center.

SIM 9 degree, upright setting, with one click towards higher. I think that is 9.75 degrees loft. Rear weight in and sliding weight thingy still at factory setting.

On the G410, all strikes except for one were in inside the grey bracket area (there is some bleed over to the bracket area, but all spots of first impact were within the bracket with the heelie one right on the bracket. The white area on the heel and upper left are spots where there was too much foot spray and it caked on. The bottom white marks are tee paint. All were good balls except the heelie, which leaked a little bit and was shorter. It would have been slightly in the rough or edge of fairway at this course. The rest were all within 20 yards or so (my estimate).

On the SIM, all strikes except two were within the circle marked by the white dashes. There was a toey one in there (inside the circle still), which drew. The two heelies do what heelies do. They got punished, but not as bad as last time. The range is bordered by trees, which would be probably a 40-50 yard slice to make it into those. They did not enter those. They were about 15 yards off of that, which is acceptable to me. Ball flight on the rest was very good and dispersion was about the same as the G400. I had a couple where the spin was very low and they seemed like they fell out of the sky type of hits, but they were certainly long. G410 had a couple of those too.

So, conclusions on this round:

It was partially the indian on this one and not the arrow. The chief got him fixed and the arrow flew right

Upright setting helps. I experimented with the standard setting (flatter lie) and heelies were severely punished. That was after this sample of 20. The difference is noticeable.

Will leave the weight in. That wasn't the issue. However, removing the rear weight indeed drastically quickens closure of the face

The SIM is longer. My estimate is 10 yards or so. There is a hard berm at 325 yards and a ridge that slants (on the left side it is 270 yards away, center is 290, and right is no longer a ridge). So, most of the shots rolled out to the berm in the center. That seems like acceptable distance. The G410 is close to that, but not quite as close.

The G410 is more forgiving, albeit at the cost of a little bit of distance. Distance loss on SIM heelies was less. So, between these two clubs it seems to be a tradeoff between distance and forgiveness.

Good strikes on the G410 are awesome. Good strikes on the SIM are super awesome.

I will continue to use it, not for sale yet.

PIcs: G410 After 10 Strikes, G410 after 20 Strikes, SIM after 10 Strikes, SIM after 20 Strikes. Had to change angle as it was starting to get a little dark.

Move the sliding weight toward the heel, maybe halfway between center and heel, and see if it straightens up that fade tendency.

Valtiel · September 16, 2020

15 hours ago, Lasorcier said:

Okay, some data and again major props to Valtiel for his excellent observations. I hit the range tonight. I warmed up with 10 wedges or so, 5 six-irons and 5 each of the SIM and G410. I then proceed to footspray each club and hit 20 balls with each. I did 10 in a row of each and alternated. I took pictures at 10 and 20 strikes, which I'll post below. Conditions:

G410 9 degree, standard loft/lie, weight in center.

SIM 9 degree, upright setting, with one click towards higher. I think that is 9.75 degrees loft. Rear weight in and sliding weight thingy still at factory setting.

On the G410, all strikes except for one were in inside the grey bracket area (there is some bleed over to the bracket area, but all spots of first impact were within the bracket with the heelie one right on the bracket. The white area on the heel and upper left are spots where there was too much foot spray and it caked on. The bottom white marks are tee paint. All were good balls except the heelie, which leaked a little bit and was shorter. It would have been slightly in the rough or edge of fairway at this course. The rest were all within 20 yards or so (my estimate).

On the SIM, all strikes except two were within the circle marked by the white dashes. There was a toey one in there (inside the circle still), which drew. The two heelies do what heelies do. They got punished, but not as bad as last time. The range is bordered by trees, which would be probably a 40-50 yard slice to make it into those. They did not enter those. They were about 15 yards off of that, which is acceptable to me. Ball flight on the rest was very good and dispersion was about the same as the G400. I had a couple where the spin was very low and they seemed like they fell out of the sky type of hits, but they were certainly long. G410 had a couple of those too.

So, conclusions on this round:

It was partially the indian on this one and not the arrow. The chief got him fixed and the arrow flew right

Upright setting helps. I experimented with the standard setting (flatter lie) and heelies were severely punished. That was after this sample of 20. The difference is noticeable.

Will leave the weight in. That wasn't the issue. However, removing the rear weight indeed drastically quickens closure of the face

The SIM is longer. My estimate is 10 yards or so. There is a hard berm at 325 yards and a ridge that slants (on the left side it is 270 yards away, center is 290, and right is no longer a ridge). So, most of the shots rolled out to the berm in the center. That seems like acceptable distance. The G410 is close to that, but not quite as close.

The G410 is more forgiving, albeit at the cost of a little bit of distance. Distance loss on SIM heelies was less. So, between these two clubs it seems to be a tradeoff between distance and forgiveness.

Good strikes on the G410 are awesome. Good strikes on the SIM are super awesome.

I will continue to use it, not for sale yet.

PIcs: G410 After 10 Strikes, G410 after 20 Strikes, SIM after 10 Strikes, SIM after 20 Strikes. Had to change angle as it was starting to get a little dark.

Lookin' better! The main thing to focus on is the north/south there as that will be the biggest determining factor in spin and overall performance. Those bottom strikes, even on the most forgiving heads, are still going to spin up and lose distance. You'll want to strive to keep everything at or above the equator on the face there for maximum performance. Working on your swing and experimenting with driver setup (weight, length etc) will be the key there.

ScottHutch2 · September 21, 2020

Just wanted to chime in here. I play the SIM 9 degree. Two shafts giving me two very different results.

1. Pj X evenflow black 65g stiff playing 44.5in, with this I hit bullet fades. I kind of like the shots this produces, I hit a lot of fairways and can get tons of roll. my miss tends to be either the high block or the low pull. Launch angle low 12's to high 11s. Spin is extremely low, sub 2k.

2. GD Tour AD XC 6s playing 45in., with this I hit high draws. My miss tends to be more exaggerated with a high push slice. launch angle high 12s to high 13s. Spin around 22-2300

Not sure how much the head is contributing to the misses, but the good contact hits perform massively different with these two shafts and the misses are similar, just exaggerated by the launch/spin of the two diff shafts.

getitdaily · September 21, 2020

I have a question for all of the guys who believe sim is heavily fade biased...

Have you been on trackman or qcquad with the face dots and validated face to path? Are you open to path, a lot, or not?

I'm not so sure the driver is hugely fade biased. I'm beginning to believe that people are having open face issues with this driver...

Red4282 · September 21, 2020

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

I have a question for all of the guys who believe sim is heavily fade biased...

Have you been on trackman or qcquad with the face dots and validated face to path? Are you open to path, a lot, or not?

I'm not so sure the driver is hugely fade biased. I'm beginning to believe that people are having open face issues with this driver...

Not sure i understand what you are asking with your last paragraph.. If the driver is not squaring up then its fade biased...?

Lasorcier · September 21, 2020

Getitdaily,

I wish I could answer this and I totally get what you are asking. I did not have that done with the dots thing. At this point, I'm not sure I would say it is fade biased; but what I would say is that I seem to have tremendous difficulty closing the face. So I am quite certain that the face has to be open at impact for me. The appearance of the white line and how it is not parallel to either side of it or to the club face goofs me up and it is almost as if I don't know how to situate the club when I address it. To me, it appears closed when I initially ground it. I am guessing that somewhere my mind is calculating (not a conscious thought on my part) that "hey this club face is closed, better open it somewhere in the swing or its going left")

The thing that gets me is that the launch monitor at CC shows that it is being piped straight down the left fairway without more movement to the left when that exact shot when playing actual golf is left and fades back at the end of the flight to more towards of center. The ones where CC monitor shows middle of the fairway are all to the right and continue going that way. I'm stumped and gave up on it, so if someone wants to buy a LH head in quite excellent condition, by all means I am willing to part with it. I am an iron headcover type of dude, so it was been treated very well.

In general on the G400 or G410 the club appears very square between the face and the top edge.

Valtiel · September 21, 2020

5 hours ago, getitdaily said:

I have a question for all of the guys who believe sim is heavily fade biased...

Have you been on trackman or qcquad with the face dots and validated face to path? Are you open to path, a lot, or not?

I'm not so sure the driver is hugely fade biased. I'm beginning to believe that people are having open face issues with this driver...

3 hours ago, Red4282 said:

Not sure i understand what you are asking with your last paragraph.. If the driver is not squaring up then its fade biased...?

I think he is asking whether or not it the fade tendencies people are reporting are related to strike or face angle. The two get conflated a lot when drivers are referred to being "biased" one way or the other, combined with the still nebulous claim/wisdom that heel/toe biased weighting impacts face closure rate.

@getitdaily, the GolfTec CG measurements show the Sim standard being pretty significantly fade biased, so I don't think that is really a question.

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SIM Drivers: Can only hit cuts and can't close the face!

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