Consistency in GI irons

[OhYeahPlayer]

Looking at making the switch from my GI irons (Taylormade Sim Max, coming from Taylormade M2).

I'm seeing and hearing a lot about inconsistency in using GI irons versus players irons. Background on my game - 8ish handicap, 37% GIRs (29% par 3, 39% par 4, 49% par 5). I hit the ball far enough so I don't really care about "players distance" - with the Taylormade irons I hit the 7 about 185 (granted, that's at 28.5 degrees or something obnoxious so really like a 5.5 iron). I can miss the center of the face but don't necessarily struggle with making clean contact with the ball.

I know the correct answer to all of the above is to get fitted, but between lack of reasonably-priced options around me and the amount I've already spent on golf this year, realistically I'm not going to. (If 2nd Swing was open with standard protocol and were doing their free fittings with used clubs, it would be a different story....) I at least know I need all my stuff 2 degrees flat, so no worries in terms of knowing my lie angles and getting those adjusted.

I'm also swapping irons sets with a buddy this weekend, he's got a set of AP3s that seem like a good stepping stone between my GI irons and a more players iron.

What could I gain by moving to a more players-focused iron? What would I lose on my mishits, especially off the toe, which is my standard miss? Would I notice much in terms of turf interaction with a thinner sole - perhaps the reason why I'm not struggling with contact is the larger soles I'm used to? I really don't think I'm good/consistent enough to consider a blade offering, but am interested in that more consistent players-tier but not blade iron (AP2s, Apex Forged, etc).

[Nessism]

I've played with lots of guys that were lights out with full sized GI irons in their hands. Try looking up Jeff's G15 iron thread and another about G25 for low handicap. Both of these threads are some of the longest ever here on GolfWRX with many many low handicappers chiming in with positive things to say about the clubs.

Personally, I moved to full size GI clubs shortly after joining here, maybe 8 years ago, and I'll never go back. My average scores during that time are right about 80 and I never ever felt my clubs were causing me to miss greens and such.

[lakecowboy]

What do your divots look like? Are you steep, neutral, or shallow? That will have an impact on sole width and how it can help/hurt you compared to what you are used to. TM M2 to AP3's should be a very easy transition if you keep the shafts

 

[OhYeahPlayer]

I'd say I'm neutral, if anything closer to shallow? A typical divot is maybe 4-5 inches, and not too deep. Definitely not a digger and I can pick the ball pretty clean off the turf from time to time.

[lakecowboy]

A narrower sole may give you better turf interaction then. Some form of a hollow body muscle back type iron like a 718 TMB set.

[gdb99]

I go back and forth between blades, cavity backs, and super game improvement irons.

I own a set of Mizuno MP-4, AP1, and Callaway FT irons.

I’m playing the FT’s right now because I have been struggling this year. Mostly it’s due to changing clubs all the time.

Last few rounds have been more consistent, and the handicap is headed back down.

I really don’t think it matters much what you play with. I think sticking to the same bag is what brings consistency and lower scores.

Also, 2 degrees flat doesn’t mean much unless you know what lie angle number you need. Mizuno stock lie angle is 2 degrees flatter than Titleist, as an example. Club head design can also influence the lie angle you might need. As does shaft.

Good luck!

[manima1]

Look at a players cavity - Srixon Z785 & Titleist T100 are very popular among players in your handicap segment.

 

At an 8, you don't need the extra forgiveness of a GI and you should see better distance control in a players cavity

[ChrisLC40]

The biggest thing I gained moving a "player's" iron (i210) was distance consistency and dispersion. I'm not the only one in this camp but any club should be in your hand for game improvement. If a large head/wide soled club works great for you, great! I needed help with distance consistency and height which I found fairly easily with the Pings. I can't speak for other irons in the player's category but to me the i210s are no less penalizing than my previous Cobra F7 Ones. If I put a bad swing on it, it's probably a less than preferred result. If I have a toe biased strike then it's probably going to draw more than I like regardless of the club that's in my hand. I've also become a better ball striker with these irons.

[ChipNRun]

Be aware of the reality on the Hot List categories of Players, Game Improvement, SuperGame Improvement and recent newbie Players Distance. Clubs are assigned to categories according to their perceived market niche. Sometimes the iron fits, other times it doesn't.
Also, the shaft a club has helps determine its performance.
As @ChrisLC40 noted: "I can't speak for other irons in the player's category but to me the i210s are no less penalizing than my previous Cobra F7 Ones."
Hot List slotted the both i200 and i210 as Players. In my case, I normally get recommended for Gi heads with lighter shafts. I had quality time at two different demo days with the i200, and with the AWT 2.0 shafts the clubs flew quite well. The AWT are lighter in the longer irons to improve launch. Again, shaft helps determine performance.
More reality: golfers with GI clubs often have GI swings. They don't always have contact in that central horizontal inch of the clubface. So, recurring haphazard strikes can lead to less than stellar ball flight.
Want to see if you have hot face issues (that monster that arose circa 2013)? Put a face decal on your 5i and 8i. Hit 10 shots with each. What do the patterns look like?
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/IC9NLIFPO3LY/image.png[/img]Hint: If Golfer A has dispersion problems, they are not caused by GI head design...

[Nessism]

Since when do 8 handicappers have distance consistency issues significantly affecting shot accuracy? Hitting greens is about hitting the ball solidly and straight at your target, not how far. The loft and strike quality takes care of distance.

[Titleist_PT23]

8 handicaps have consistency issues period. Meaning they aren't very consistent whether it be distance, strike, direction, etc. 8 handicap doesn't sound too bad at first. Then consider a) average score is probably like 84 on a course with any slope (72 + 8 + ~3 for index differential vs. average differential + shot for slope) and b) hitting 6.7 greens is probably what a good (scratch or lower) golfer hits on ONE SIDE. I.e. you hit half as many greens as a good golfer. Still sound great? I don't think so.

And by the way, I am basically an 8 and hit the same 37% of GIR. I'm convinced this range of golfers is the most delusional of all golfers. I think the issue is that this group can hit perfect shots frequently enough and often from difficult situations that somehow a great shot is what they think about as their "ability" (as in average ability). They forget about the 60%+ of GIR missed.

And for those that are going to shoot this post down, I'm not saying don't play blades or a thinner sole/smaller iron. Just have a real assessment of your game/ability.

[DeNinny]

Spoiler alert: GI clubs are the absolute worst club designs for all skill levels to play and the more players designs you go, the EASIER it is to play them no matter what your skill level is. It's complete technical malarkey to think that players clubs get harder to hit and penalize the less skilled golfers. The reason good players play blades and players clubs is because they are EASIER and more consistent, not harder.

The first problem with GI clubs is the huge sole. Spoiler alert: it does not help a golfer to be so big whatsoever. All a big sole does is increase the likelihood of hitting the ground with it before the face hits the ball. This is ALWAYS bad. A thinner and less curved and lower bounce sole is much better for making clean contact with the ball. This is just one reason that GI clubs are worse for ALL golfers.

Another related issue to the huge sole is the overall perimeter weighting and high MOI design. Again, this is a DETRIMENT to ALL golfers. One issue with it is that it makes the ball compression and thus spin on the ball INCONSISTENT. With all the mass of the club at the perimeter, the face becomes thin like a trampoline. And this thin trampoline face then bends more to the curvature of the ball during impact. And furthermore that curving and bending, just like it is for those jumping on a trampoline, is always varying across the surface. By design this leads to a varying and inconsistent ball compression as you make ball contact at varying points on the face. LMFAO the poor golfer, usually one that needs the most help with consistent ball striking, is actually penalized in terms of spin consistency for using a GI club as compared to a more players design. ?

The other issue is that a high MOI clubhead is simply based on a flawed and unequivocally false theory. The "forgiving" theory is that high MOI helps prevent the clubhead from twisting around its CG from an off center hit at impact. Spoiler alert: this is physically impossible. It will NEVER happen. Because the clubhead is literally attached to the shaft, one cannot view it as a free floating body that can spin freely around any other point besides the shaft itself. Again it will NEVER spin around any other point. As soon as any force is applied to the clubface, the point of rotation will ALWAYS be at the shaft. Ergo, a high MOI clubhead being "forgiving" is nothing but false science marketing. And no, they do not improve off center miss hits (spoiler alert).

High offset is also an issue with GI clubs. It causes the face to close more in the downswing because the offset makes the clubhead CG to be further offline from the shaft axis. In the downswing, this offset mass then causes the face to close down and create a draw or hook spin condition at impact. Less offset is always going to be better in this regard because it aligns the clubhead CG more so with the shaft axis which ultimately helps keep the clubface square relative to the path during the swing.

In short, forgiveness is nothing but a carney sham(e).

And with all this, I'm out of this thread and won't be reading it any further, including replies to this post. I just gave all you readers the true physics (summary level only) so take it or leave it!

Hit 'em straight and play whatever makes you happy! ?

[OhYeahPlayer]

Wowza. The last two comments are very interesting. @agolf1 's comment was way more real than I was expecting opening this thread ? Not wrong though.
Deninny, you're out of this thread but for conversation's sake with others I'll dispute the thin and curving face with spin inconsistency point (at least with my current understanding). Let's say I miss well off the toe. If I'm using a blade, I'll maintain a lot of that spin but it will fall short of the target and probably hook a bit because I missed center and the majority of the mass in the clubhead. If I'm using a GI iron, my spin will drop and it will travel further accommodating for not hitting the center. It's not ideal - I'll get a different ball flight, less spin, and increased distance, and likely I'll likely be closer to my target than with a blade. I get the argument laid out above, but I'm not totally sold on it.
So - if the above is true, and I'm consistently missing all over the face, a GI iron might give me better results over time than a blade. If I'm consistently hitting the center of the face, or close - a blade would be a better choice for consistency's sake.

[NoTalentLefty]

Actually GIs with stronger lofts, combined with the hybrids have allowed me to have yardage coverage from 200 yards to chipping again. Guys like me who are length challenged can actually get measurable gapping again. Mine were getting too close on 3s thru 8s .

Much of this due to length and consistency.

[Figgeduni]

TBH I might have been jebaited here cause it literally feels like such a post, and if it is I for sure was jebaited but here goes:

Jesus this is some short sighted BS, looking at it from only one perspective.

The first problem you are mentioning about the sole is only a problem if you are a sweeper/picker and you don't have a negative AoA, cause if you have a negative AoA there is no way the sole will hit the ground before the front edge of the club.

Second problem is usually solved with height, GI irons tend to get the ball launched higher than players irons when struck not perfect and/or with slower SS. And higher ball flights means steeper landing angles which causes stoppage power instead of the spin, and also adds length because of the less spin. Yes, you might not be able to do those low stinger shots that stops on the green you see on tour but if you are playing a GI that most likely wont be your main problem. And about that last phrase, I'm pretty sure that players using GI and SGIs biggest concern isn't their spin numbers, but to get the ball up and away towards their target even when not perfectly struck.

Third problem. So you mean if you attached a brick instead of the iron head to one shaft, and a thin iron sheet to another shaft and hit both those out of the "toe" they would turn around the same? Of course they wouldnt, cause one has more mass, so this is completely false. This is the reason you actually hit the ball further on not so well struck hits on a GI iron compared to a players iron. Also the higher MOI also causes higher launches in general.

Fourth problem is really looking at it from one perspective, what if you have a problem with a slice like most of the new players have that is using GI and SGI clubs? Higher offset increases the chance of squaring the face for those that have a problem with leaving face open and slicing the golf ball, hence making it an easier club to hit straight than one without the offset.

So yea, saying that GI clubs is bad for EVERYONE is total bullshit.

[gvogel]

As a former 7 handicap, I played game improvement clubs (AP1) for years with more success than players clubs (AP1 and cavity backs). Happy to share my experience.

[NoTalentLefty]

I actually am more of a sweeper or at best a very small grass mover at impact. I think the wider soles never impacts my swing. Much like a hybrid helps me.

[OhYeahPlayer]

I would love to hear more if you’re willing to share! What were the main advantages/disadvantages you saw between GI and players clubs, why did you switch, what is your handicap now & how did your iron choices impact that?

[farmer]

DeNinny comes in, attempts to start a forest fire and then walks away. OP, there are 1036 threads about this very topic. Anything, and I mean anything of interest on the topic will be in those threads.

[ChipNRun]

@DeNinny offered these musings:"Spoiler alert: GI clubs are the absolute worst club designs for all skill levels to play and the more players designs you go, the EASIER it is to play them no matter what your skill level is. It's complete technical malarkey to think that players clubs get harder to hit and penalize the less skilled golfers. The reason good players play blades and players clubs is because they are EASIER and more consistent, not harder.The first problem with GI clubs is the huge sole. ..."
Easier and more consistent? It you have a precision swing, and can usually contact a sweet spot the size of a dime rather than the size of a half-dollar. With GI rather than Players, you are trying to balance control and forgiveness. A club designer interviewed in Golf Digest estimated that a well-struck Players iron shot had ±3 yards range dispersion, whereas a well-struck GI iron shot had ±7 yards range dispersion.
If Players are easier, why do so many pros play mixed sets: GI on longer clubs, Players on scoring irons? Check out Kevin Na, who played one season with blades, saw his scores rise, and has been GI ever since.
Also, the Players heads work better if you have higher clubhead speed ... as others hae noted.Huge sole? You are confusing GI irons with SGI irons.

[Nessism]

So true!

DeNinny knows more (in his mind) about club design than the collective knowledge of real club designers world wide. And this topic of GI clubs being inaccurate has been discussed ad nauseam.

[MtlJeff]

I've been a plus cap twice in my life and both times were using Ping G series irons. This could be a coincidence as i've been 0-2 pretty much the last 10 years so you're going to get hot and cold, but i'm just saying literally the best , most consistent golf i've played was with G15's and now G410's.

I have a friend who is a 12 and uses Mavrik Pros and he hits them well, he was coming from SGI's and truthfully i think he is playing better now than he did then. Again, is THAT a coincidence? Maybe or maybe not.....The point is you don't "need" to use SGI or big GI clubs to play your best game or enjoy golf. Different players will like different things and many clubs on the market provide good forgiveness with the new modern designs

But one thing that is 100% certain is that the notion you cannot be consistent with SGI's is complete nonsense. PGA pros have used Ping G series irons at Augusta and in US Opens, some of the most demanding greens in the entire world to approach with accuracy. All of this "flyer" talk or "this one went 160 and the next one went 195" stuff is nonsense.....it's not true at all.

I find SGI's easy to hit and i'm good enough to make consistent contact. Yes you can play consistent golf with them.

[iNeedMoreGolf]

Heres my advice. Dont be afraid to move to players or players distance irons. Ive played gi irons my whole golfing life so far until this season. Switched to mizuno mmc mp 20... most player and specially player distance irons now are very forgiving. These mmc are insanely forgiving. No more of a yardage drop of then 10 yards. As far as left or right... your going to miss left or right with any clubs gi or not. The big deal is distance drop offs.. and most retain distance very well now.. and in order to get a club with less offsett and sleeker top and bottom which i preffer its that bit of a trade off. To be fair ive come up short sometimes on gi irons too.. do not be afraid to make the switch... if anything you might play even better. Blades on the other hand are probably a no no. Great to look at but are very much more demanding.

[Red4282]

Haha this post... its no wonder misinformation spreads so rampant

[animalgolfs]

Played G700 6i then i500 7-uw

 

Two things I notice:

1. It depends on the turf you play along with conditions. If it's really hard pan, struggle with G700 due to the wider sole.

2. With the G700 I'm trying to hit the green in specific quarters. They do one thing - launch ball high & straight. Firmer greens become problematic in hard pan...due to spin loss.

 

I'm on the fence on this subject - part of me wants to play Blueprints....... But I know G710 fit my needs way better. I'm a very low single hdcp - a well struck BP or a high towering G710

[Conrad1953]

LOL, DeNinny does a drive by; rekindling fond old memories of his tin foil hat conspiracy theories.

[MtlJeff]

Yeah must be nice they have their own blade thread where clubhead criticism is forbidden....but hey jump into GI threads and dump all over them

That seems reasonable

 

 

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

There’s no real advantage to a players iron other than aesthetics.

I just got a set of P760s, and they seem to hit very nicely. I transitioned from Ping i20. Still keeping those. Just wanted a shiny new set. The P790 were going to take another month with my fitting, and the P760 cost $300 less.

[OhYeahPlayer]

Good feedback everyone - thank you! Lots of different perspectives and I think the answer (which I guess I knew before posting) is to get fitted. There's what looks like a reputable fitter at my local PGA SS, I might give that a shot for $50.

I got a chance to swap irons with a buddy today and used his AP3s - I was swinging okay so I didn't notice a ton but I loved the ball flight, how they felt, and especially the turf interaction compared to my Taylormades. Didn't know my yardages at all, but that's to be expected. :)

[nsxguy]

"Hit 'em straight and play whatever makes you happy! ?"

The only thing the black cat says that's worth paying any attention to. LMAO

In short, anything else he says is nothing but a carney sham(e). LOL Oh, except when he said "Blades are more workable, CBs are more forgiving" That was spot on.