Course Setup To Combat Today's Bomb-And-Gouge Game

[ScottF]

The penalty for being long and in the rough is less than the reward for being short and in the fairway. Trees are the biggest hazards these guys face. I don’t care how far you can hit it, or how deep the rough is, trying to hit over or around a big tree or even small trees will cost you. Plant more trees 300 yards off the tee to penalize errant shots. 
 

Edited September 20, 2020 by ScottF

[tannyhoban]

20 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Sure.  One , two a generation.  Now the quotient for bombers who can putt is raised x390 and .... they use equipment that is so far superior than yesteryear that the courses cannot defend.  I don’t think that’s really debatable is it ?    All hitters.  Long and short used to play inside the old growth trees of courses.  They now play over the trees , even when playing down  the fairway in between them.    
 

clubs make a difference.   I’m sorry. But it’s all about scale.  Today’s driver and 3 woods move that scale , you can swing harder.  I know. I’m one of those hard swingers.  I know what it’s giving me.  But I also know what it’s taking from me.    I know a pga master pro who has taught all the way to the big time. His words are “small ball and big ball “.  Everybody plays big ball now.  There is no value in trying to hit every fairway and every green.  The value is practicing driver and 100 and in.  Period. 

I disagree. Even bitd when I routinely played am tourneys there were more than a few long hitters who could bomb it and play finesse. In hs my sophomore year I shot even for 9 and lost by 4 to a lefty who just crushed the ball. He went to Ohio State next year and played 4 years, still a local pro here in NE Ohio. He is in the Northern Ohio PGA HOF. In this era he likely would gone Korn Ferry and who knows? That's one example of many here in Ohio. Think nationally how many there were.

 

Course conditioning has improved to the point where even at the muny level expectations have changed.

 

In so many ways the game is better now than ever. So many avenues for a true prospect to pursue and still a ton of good courses to play. And amateurs are still, well they are still amateurs. Sometimes we gotta admit that there are some folks that are light years better. That's has always been true.

 

That's my take and I'm sticking to it. Cheers!

[ThinkingPlus]

Slow, bumpy greens would mostly nullify bomb and gouge.

[Titleist99]

One tournament, three Touring Pros UNDER PAR and 58 other Pros struggling....Yet, the talking heads on TV want the USGA to make a decision on distance and change golf as we know it......Just heard one say fairways are useless and the players are making a mockery out of all the golf courses.........What am I missing? I see the 58 that can't break par for four days....Someone help me understand.

[James the Hogan Fan]

21 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Sure.  One , two a generation.  Now the quotient for bombers who can putt is raised x390 and .... they use equipment that is so far superior than yesteryear that the courses cannot defend.  I don’t think that’s really debatable is it ?    All hitters.  Long and short used to play inside the old growth trees of courses.  They now play over the trees , even when playing down  the fairway in between them.    
 

clubs make a difference.   I’m sorry. But it’s all about scale.  Today’s driver and 3 woods move that scale , you can swing harder.  I know. I’m one of those hard swingers.  I know what it’s giving me.  But I also know what it’s taking from me.    I know a pga master pro who has taught all the way to the big time. His words are “small ball and big ball “.  Everybody plays big ball now.  There is no value in trying to hit every fairway and every green.  The value is practicing driver and 100 and in.  Period. 

 

You're right blade, and I have noticed it when I play at my club. 6,800 yards, and my biggest drives (260 or so) is about as long as you can be for the course to be demanding. All four par 5's are Driver-wood-wedge for me, and par 4's are either long driver-hybrid or short driver-p/9/8. And it creeps into my set makeup just as you describe. I now play driver-3w-5w-3hy-4hy-5i... and try to avoid pulling 5 and 6 as much as possible. 

 

I played a single round from the whites at 6000 yards and shot a season best 75. Pretty easy to do when I was over the back of two par 5's in two, and never had more than 8 iron on any other approach. I'm just bad at hitting approaches to makeable putting range. And I realize that me from the whites is the pros from the tips: it's not about hitting the green or not, it's about proximity to the hole and racking up birdies. 

 

I do wish the space between holes at Winged Foot was thick fescue lost ball country. At the courses I frequent if you are 30 yards wide left or right you're either in the 12-18-24"cabbage or OB. 

[bladehunter]

17 minutes ago, tannyhoban said:

I disagree. Even bitd when I routinely played am tourneys there were more than a few long hitters who could bomb it and play finesse. In hs my sophomore year I shot even for 9 and lost by 4 to a lefty who just crushed the ball. He went to Ohio State next year and played 4 years, still a local pro here in NE Ohio. He is in the Northern Ohio PGA HOF. In this era he likely would gone Korn Ferry and who knows? That's one example of many here in Ohio. Think nationally how many there were.

 

Course conditioning has improved to the point where even at the muny level expectations have changed.

 

In so many ways the game is better now than ever. So many avenues for a true prospect to pursue and still a ton of good courses to play. And amateurs are still, well they are still amateurs. Sometimes we gotta admit that there are some folks that are light years better. That's has always been true.

 

That's my take and I'm sticking to it. Cheers!

Right.  I’m not denying long hitters have always existed.  What I’m saying is they used to use it when they could and play irks off the tee when they couldn’t.  Still an advantage hitting 2 iron to everyone else’s driver. But , not just launching it into space and hoping.    
 

I guess my main gripe is that folks somehow try to both deny that the game has changed immensely and defend that the changes are good.  Can’t be both. It’s either changed altogether and you like it or don’t  or it hasn’t changed.   

[caniac6]

Balata would solve everything. They spin so much that the balls missing fairways, might miss the golf course.

[bladehunter]

12 minutes ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

 

You're right blade, and I have noticed it when I play at my club. 6,800 yards, and my biggest drives (260 or so) is about as long as you can be for the course to be demanding. All four par 5's are Driver-wood-wedge for me, and par 4's are either long driver-hybrid or short driver-p/9/8. And it creeps into my set makeup just as you describe. I now play driver-3w-5w-3hy-4hy-5i... and try to avoid pulling 5 and 6 as much as possible. 

 

I played a single round from the whites at 6000 yards and shot a season best 75. Pretty easy to do when I was over the back of two par 5's in two, and never had more than 8 iron on any other approach. I'm just bad at hitting approaches to makeable putting range. And I realize that me from the whites is the pros from the tips: it's not about hitting the green or not, it's about proximity to the hole and racking up birdies. 

 

I do wish the space between holes at Winged Foot was thick fescue lost ball country. At the courses I frequent if you are 30 yards wide left or right you're either in the 12-18-24"cabbage or OB. 

Yep. That’s what I’m saying.  My home course is a 1969 design. You can see the par 5s and how they are designed to be played.  One in particular is a 90 degree dogleg right.  From the tips it’s obviously meant be a driver with a 3 wood approach dead uphill.   I play 3 wood or hybrid over the dogleg from that tee and if I catch it good I’m left with 170 in.  I’ve hit driver over that dogleg with a big cut many times and my shortest in is 127 which was two weeks ago.  But it brings OB right in play. So I don’t usually risk it.  It would have took a mountain of a hitter to take persimmon driver over that dogleg.  Really I play it as a par4 .  Even big courses I play in the summer tournaments  , you are never hitting more than 7 iron into a par 4s with a decent drive.  
 

im resigned to the fact that it’s changed and won’t change back but I can’t listen to people deny that changes have happened. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by bladehunter

[miamistomp]

 Smaller greens, shrubs closer to fairway and adjacent fairways ob

[caniac6]

Guys from the hickory era were probably complaining about how steel shafts ruined the game. It is always changing. 

[bladehunter]

Just now, caniac6 said:

Guys from the hickory era were probably complaining about how steel shafts ruined the game. It is always changing. 

Right. Very true.  I’ve excepted it. If yo I want to compete you have to hit it as far as possible and find it , and hit it again.  I just wonder where it’s going?  

[miamistomp]

 Steel shafts were banned by the USGA until mid 1920's , I believe

[Soloman1]

Amana hats! 50 bucks a week, baby! That was the pay for wearing it.

[caniac6]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

Amana hats! 50 bucks a week, baby! That was the pay for wearing it.

My first job was doing pretty physical labor for $2/hr., so getting paid $50 for wearing a hat would have been great!

[3whacker]

you cant change the set up of a course to penalize the bomb and gouge crowd without also penalizing those that are down the middle but yards shorter. Technology has made the classic golf courses defenseless without tricking them up and making them unfair and no fun to watch. It was only a decade ago that courses were "Tiger proofing " themselves because he was so much longer  and straighter and hitting short irons into greens where others were using mid irons. the only other alternative is to change the spin on the ball, manufacturers have taken all the sidespin out of the ball so even if you miss you only worry about the lie, the advent of the Pro V1 started the onslaught and it hasn't stopped

 

I wonder if today's Tour pro had to play balata type ball if they could keep it in play. I actually think that is part of TW's problems is that he cant work the ball like he used to not because of diminishing skills but because in his mind the ball he used to cut or draw into a breeze goes straight

[Shilgy]

7 hours ago, caniac6 said:

I’d ban working out, and bring back Sans A Belt slacks.

And swizzle sticks! If you can’t prove you had at least half a dozen whiskey sours the night before you have to do shots on the first tee. If you want the 50’s back let’s do it right!

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Right.  I’m not denying long hitters have always existed.  What I’m saying is they used to use it when they could and play irks off the tee when they couldn’t.  Still an advantage hitting 2 iron to everyone else’s driver. But , not just launching it into space and hoping.    
 

I guess my main gripe is that folks somehow try to both deny that the game has changed immensely and defend that the changes are good.  Can’t be both. It’s either changed altogether and you like it or don’t  or it hasn’t changed.   

C’mon man...”launching and hoping” ?   Bryson is, with very few exceptions, very straight. Especially for that length. As is Wolff. 

[Shilgy]

For those that think this is a new trend....a notice on the US Open app....

 

since 1990 there have been 186 players to finish t5 or better in the US Open. Only 10.7% of them ranked in the top 5 for fairways hit.

I am guessing if they went back further it really would not change much.

[bigred90gt]

4 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. That’s what I’m saying.  My home course is a 1969 design. You can see the par 5s and how they are designed to be played.  One in particular is a 90 degree dogleg right.  From the tips it’s obviously meant be a driver with a 3 wood approach dead uphill.   I play 3 wood or hybrid over the dogleg from that tee and if I catch it good I’m left with 170 in.  I’ve hit driver over that dogleg with a big cut many times and my shortest in is 127 which was two weeks ago.  But it brings OB right in play. So I don’t usually risk it.  It would have took a mountain of a hitter to take persimmon driver over that dogleg.  Really I play it as a par4 .  Even big courses I play in the summer tournaments  , you are never hitting more than 7 iron into a par 4s with a decent drive.  
 

im resigned to the fact that it’s changed and won’t change back but I can’t listen to people deny that changes have happened. 

You’re more than welcome to play those persimmons and play the course “as it was designed to be played” nothing in the world stopping you. 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, bigred90gt said:

You’re more than welcome to play those persimmons and play the course “as it was designed to be played” nothing in the world stopping you. 

That’s the cop out response.  Of course I can.  We’re talking competing.  Not Saturday  beer rounds.    You can’t compete and play them.  

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

C’mon man...”launching and hoping” ?   Bryson is, with very few exceptions, very straight. Especially for that length. As is Wolff. 

I’m not down on Bryson.  I actually like a lot of his new ways.  His swing is by far the most common sense approach to the golf swing.    Wolff , he’s not grown on my yet.  But I have no reason other than he’s a kid and I really am not a fan.  Probably my lack of experience at being a kid.  Not talking age I’m talking the care free attitude.   But that’s a personal feeling.  
 

anyway.  I’ve seen Bryson hit some 40-60 yard hooks this week that are OB in any course that isn’t built with side by side holes.  And I get it. That fine. He’s getting away with it. But doesn’t mean it’s good for the game really.  And by that I mean this. For several years I’ve advocated for bifurcation..... and most disagree with that. Yet ..... they are a fan of this type golf being played even though it further divides the pro game from the am game in terms of ideals and appearances.   So in my eyes you guys don’t want bifurcation in rules, but are perfectly ok with it in practice . We’re watching driver PW on par 5s on a us open. You can’t find that on the shortest muni on earth.      So how far apart do you want to see the games grow without actually labeling it bifurcation?    I guess I just don’t understand how one idea is frowned on and the reality is loved.  

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, 3whacker said:

you cant change the set up of a course to penalize the bomb and gouge crowd without also penalizing those that are down the middle but yards shorter. Technology has made the classic golf courses defenseless without tricking them up and making them unfair and no fun to watch. It was only a decade ago that courses were "Tiger proofing " themselves because he was so much longer  and straighter and hitting short irons into greens where others were using mid irons. the only other alternative is to change the spin on the ball, manufacturers have taken all the sidespin out of the ball so even if you miss you only worry about the lie, the advent of the Pro V1 started the onslaught and it hasn't stopped

 

I wonder if today's Tour pro had to play balata type ball if they could keep it in play. I actually think that is part of TW's problems is that he cant work the ball like he used to not because of diminishing skills but because in his mind the ball he used to cut or draw into a breeze goes straight

You’re correct on all points.  

[3whacker]

1 hour ago, bigred90gt said:

You’re more than welcome to play those persimmons and play the course “as it was designed to be played” nothing in the world stopping you. 

You would have a very difficult time playing today's ball with a persimmon wood, because they are unable to compress the ball consistently and the bulge and roll on a persimmon wood would have difficulty in drawing or fading the ball with any consistency...the other thing is a persimmon wood would not withstand the hardness of today's ball and would crack after repeated use on the range alone...I know because I did that on my beloved Hogan persimmon and had no choice but to retire it after having it repaired

[Kilo1545]

I'm just waiting for that Tommy Fleetwood-looking long drive dude to come over and dominate the Tour.

[aenemated]

8 minutes ago, Kilo1545 said:

I'm just waiting for that Tommy Fleetwood-looking long drive dude to come over and dominate the Tour.

 

Haha it'd take at least three Tommys to make up one Kyle. 

[tgoodspe1991]

Nothing about the game needs to change at all. What Bryson did today at the US Open was spectacular and showed off his talent.

 

Bryson isn't the only long hitter in the game, but he's the only one that executed his game plan flawlessly and shot under par in the final round. There are numerous other "bomb and gouge" players that played horrendously and either missed the cut or finished 10+ strokes behind Bryson. So why do we need to change the game? Because Bryson's talent and flawless execution on Sunday in a Major made it look too "easy"? Well, it wasn't easy. He just played amazing golf in his own style.

 

Also, bifurcating the game literally achieves nothing but making golf boring to watch. Give all the Pros hickory clubs and balata balls and shorten the golf courses and guess what? The longest hitters will still be the longest hitters, they'll still have the same "advantages" they have now, and they'll still play the bomb and gouge game except now it's just going to be on shorter courses. The only thing that will change is instead of Bryson carrying the ball 330y through the air, he'll carry it 275y through the air with the same swing speed. And to me, that would be worse for the game than anything else.

[EmperorPenguin]

I don't know about equipment.  It would be ludicrous to require a tournament ball and tournament clubs because the challenge, I believe, is to set up the course to combat the distance advantages from today's equipment.  If you lengthen the holes to 560-yard par 4's you eliminate the short-hitters.  Invite the bombers try to hit the ball 350-plus yards, but the premise of my setup solution is that the longer the ball travels, the more accuracy is needed and the consequences will be very punishing.  Merciless, I must add.  Sure, there are wedges with 64-68 degrees of loft, but I contend that not even those weapons will get the ball out of rough that is one foot long.  5" is not tall enough, but 12" should certainly do it.  A limit must exist.

 

I don't believe in setting up OB posts within a golf course.  I want ridiculously deep rough past 350 yards so the player would be forced to play it, take an unplayable lie (good luck dropping it!) or use the stroke-and-distance option.  These incredible hulks should be punished for crapping out when gambling on the course.  They will always have the option to lay back if they want.

Edited September 20, 2020 by EmperorPenguin

[Hawkeye77]

Good Lord, just because there's no grass in Antarctica . . . . . . .

[Golf10]

9 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

One tournament, three Touring Pros UNDER PAR and 58 other Pros struggling....Yet, the talking heads on TV want the USGA to make a decision on distance and change golf as we know it......Just heard one say fairways are useless and the players are making a mockery out of all the golf courses.........What am I missing? I see the 58 that can't break par for four days....Someone help me understand.

 

To be fair a lot of us have been calling for bifurcation for decades.  Iron skills should be reintroduced to the pro game.  I'd go with 15% rollback for pros to start.  No reason a major venue needs to be over 7,000 yards.

[Golf10]

32 minutes ago, EmperorPenguin said:

I don't know about equipment.  It would be ludicrous to require a tournament ball and tournament clubs because the challenge, I believe, is to set up the course to combat the distance advantages from today's equipment.  If you lengthen the holes to 560-yard par 4's you eliminate the short-hitters.  Invite the bombers try to hit the ball 350-plus yards, but the premise of my setup solution is that the longer the ball travels, the more accuracy is needed and the consequences will be very punishing.  Merciless, I must add.  Sure, there are wedges with 64-68 degrees of loft, but I contend that not even those weapons will get the ball out of rough that is one foot long.  5" is not tall enough, but 12" should certainly do it.  A limit must exist.

 

I don't believe in setting up OB posts within a golf course.  I want ridiculously deep rough past 350 yards so the player would be forced to play it, take an unplayable lie (good luck dropping it!) or use the stroke-and-distance option.  These incredible hulks should be punished for crapping out when gambling on the course.  They will always have the option to lay back if they want.

 

I think you're right on.  Skill has to be rewarded at some point.  Grow fescue at 350.  Then you have a true risk reward.