What's coming next from the USGA and R&A...

[NRJyzr]

10 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Actually subjective criticisms are never sufficient.

 

I'm reminded of all the anecdotal comments from Tour pros about the ridiculous distance gains after switching to solid core balls back in 2000.  Señor Mickelson was notable in saying he got 25-30 yards, or thereabouts.  A look at driving distance stats showed about +7 yards in 2001, most of which he lost in 2002.

 

Give me real data every time. 

 

[clevited]

8 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I haven’t seen the exact figure the RBs are looking for. What is it?

 

If it’s much less than 300 then I’d suggest it’s either a negotiation tactic or poor leadership. Most fans appreciate big drives and very few want to see the average guy go back to carrying 245. 
 

Tiger went from averaging 298 in 2000 to averaging 216 in 2005. That’s pretty much what Rory and the distance leaders have been at recently. So, Tiger is a good benchmark. 

 

So, we are really taking about Rory, DJ and most *highly ranked long hitters carrying 285-290 (as TW did) and averaging 300 total. Sure, they could lean on it sometimes and carry 300+ but with a small steel head, they can’t just swing for the fences like with  with the big Titanium toaster where any accuracy counts. 
 

Which brings us to BD. He would still be longer than anybody, Rightfully so, he worked hard to get here. But, he would be carrying 310 or so, not 340+.

 

 

 

I can only try to explain this so many times.  15 yard reduction is roughly 1 golf club difference. Instead of a SW to the green, its now a GW.  

 

Look at the driving leaders right now.  Averaging very high distances.  Over the course of the year, that tends to come down.  I suspect due to course type and mix and use of fairway woods and irons perhaps on some of the measured driving holes. That shows that they have more in the tank, a lot more but that the courses themselves tend to limit what is useful distance.  The players will peg that stat still.

 

With a 15 yard reduction many players will still be able to "overpower" any of the old classic courses that are so beloved and said to be part of why this whole roll back discussion exists.

 

Temporarily, your over all tour average might come down but again, this whole conversation comes back unless a very significant reduction takes place.  

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I'm reminded of all the anecdotal comments from Tour pros about the ridiculous distance gains after switching to solid core balls back in 2000.  Señor Mickelson was notable in saying he got 25-30 yards, or thereabouts.  A look at driving distance stats showed about +7 yards in 2001, most of which he lost in 2002.

 

Give me real data every time. 

 

Absolutely!  This is also why I don't pay too much attention to tour players providing swing tips.  They rarely know what they really do and their "feels" may or may not line up with mine.  It is better in today's world because the pros have seen how they swing on video, but some of older players not so much.

[milesgiles]

13 hours ago, QuigleyDU said:

Ok as promised here is the test. You can see my signature below for the clubs used..

 

I hit some with my driver to provide a baseline. 
 

then pulled the driver shaft (45 inch), installed it in my original one driver. I cranked the head 2 degrees low to 11.5.

 

standard driver numbers.

 

 

 

Original one driver numbers set up as a driver.

 

 

Nice numbers

 

on a range I wouldn’t expect too much difference, its on the course when a miss hit means something that the smaller clubhead would logically have to be swung more cautiously. That’s the factor that would get carries well under 300 yards.

[NRJyzr]

2 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Absolutely!  This is also why I don't pay too much attention to tour players providing swing tips.  They rarely know what they really do and their "feels" may or may not line up with mine.  It is better in today's world because the pros have seen how they swing on video, but some of older players not so much.

 

Off track comment:  What you describe is why I don't like reading golf swing instruction/theory.  Too much effort required in translating comments into the way I think about how my swing works.  Or doesn't work, depending on one's perspective, LOL.

 

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Nice numbers

 

on a range I wouldn’t expect too much difference, its on the course when a miss hit means something that the smaller clubhead would logically have to be swung more cautiously. That’s the factor that would get carries well under 300 yards.

Well @QuigleyDU apparently you have to take one for the team and demonstrate your prowess in a tour event.  Let us all know which one so we can cheer you on.

[NRJyzr]

16 hours ago, mahonie said:

It was actually Mickelson who threatened to leave Titleist if they did not launch a ball that was as good as the Callaway Rule 35 that he had been testing. Titleist then released the patent infringing Pro V1 that led to all that litigation when Mickelson was required to testify.

 

I remember DL3 doing that, but had completely forgotten about Mickelson and the Rule 35 until you mentioned it.

 

Mildly related comment:  The Callaway balls I *really* miss are the HX 2 piece, both Red and Blue.  Could get them for reasonable prices, and they really performed well.  Add them to the Precept U-Tri Extra Spin and Maxfli solid core wound balls on the list of things about golf that i enjoyed, and are no more....

 

[Nard_S]

3 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I'm reminded of all the anecdotal comments from Tour pros about the ridiculous distance gains after switching to solid core balls back in 2000.  Señor Mickelson was notable in saying he got 25-30 yards, or thereabouts.  A look at driving distance stats showed about +7 yards in 2001, most of which he lost in 2002.

 

Give me real data every time. 

 

It was not the distance it was the dispersion. Phil could go after an extra 25 yards or at least he felt he could attempt it. The big head Ti does the same. Compound the two you get bomb & gouge. 

[nsxguy]

On 10/22/2020 at 7:54 PM, Dr. Block said:

Just got done playing the prime Nicklaus era kit (76 Staffs, Penna persimmons).  I haven’t played them in awhile - man are those clubs challenging to hit! 
 

If you long drive lab guys ever get the chance, play a round with similar.  You might gain a whole new perspective 😉 

 

You know, I think you're right.

 

Can't wait until I get my pot belly stove, water pump in the kitchen and an outhouse in my backyard.

 

[mahonie]

19 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

That is my hope as well.  Close up loopholes in the existing limits and cap distance gains due to everything, but the athlete.  However, the RBs recent track record is not good with this sort of thing.

I think you’re right but I think something should be done with the spin profile of balls to bring back a bit of balance between flat out distance and spin control.

[NRJyzr]

7 minutes ago, mahonie said:

I think you’re right but I think something should be done with the spin profile of balls to bring back a bit of balance between flat out distance and spin control.

 

I think the focus on the ball is effort being spent on the wrong cause, but if you really want to mess with the golf ball, just mandate a slightly thicker cover.  <shrug>

 

[Dr. Block]

35 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

You know, I think you're right.

 

Can't wait until I get my pot belly stove, water pump in the kitchen and an outhouse in my backyard.

 

I said prime Nicklaus era kit, not Young Tom Morris.  How about a velvet suit jacket in your closet, a microwave oven in your kitchen, and a LOooong Cadillac car in your garage. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Dr. Block

[disco111]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Block said:

I said prime Nicklaus era kit, not Young Tom Morris.  How about velvet suit jackets, microwave ovens, and a LOooong Cadillac car in your garage. 

That's the model where the caddie actually slept in the trunk and if you lifted the arm rest in the back seat, it became an indoor out house.....

[Shilgy]

10 hours ago, clevited said:

 

Don't forget to adjust for inflation.

Since a few of you replied in a similar manner I apparently was not clear.....

”look at those retail prices” is what I typed and should have added...”imagine what they would be today!”

[mahonie]

20 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Since a few of you replied in a similar manner I apparently was not clear.....

”look at those retail prices” is what I typed and should have added...”imagine what they would be today!”

Then you also realise a Pro V1 costs a few pence to make but retails for £5/ball...

[oikos1]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

Nice numbers

 

on a range I wouldn’t expect too much difference, its on the course when a miss hit means something that the smaller clubhead would logically have to be swung more cautiously. That’s the factor that would get carries well under 300 yards.

I understand better now where you are coming from, and I honestly don't think there are many PGA Tour fans or amateur players who want to see players forced to swing "cautiously" just to keep it under 300 yards.  That's just not where the game is at today and more than likely will never be.  From the beginning, the human condition has had a great appreciation for "pushing the limits".

[Dr. Block]

55 minutes ago, disco111 said:

That's the model where the caddie actually slept in the trunk and if you lifted the arm rest in the back seat, it became an indoor out house.....

If my caddie started $hi*tting in my Cadillac, I’d take that as a sign I needed to make more cuts. 

[Nard_S]

I think the ball is the key. 

 

I played Tour 100's when I had no business playing them. Did it for years, could not break 90. Switched my clubs, switched to Precept MC. My scores dropped to 82-84 average. Ball or club? Ping Eye II or Ram Tour Grind? Went from Ping/Tour 100 to Ram/Precept. Figure that. What does the change mean for guys with 15%-20% more speed? 

 Did put in 50 rounds with old HT's a few years ago. The HT is like a Titleist Professional, a tweener ball. Very playable even at 18 years old. The Pro V1x wins it though on short game and on windy days. Today,I can pick up a half club on irons by a simple ball switch. Day I need it, will.

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

30 minutes ago, Dr. Block said:

If my caddie started $hi*tting in my Cadillac, I’d take that as a sign I needed to make more cuts. 

Can we put steer horns on the Caddy as well as the caddie?

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, clevited said:

 

I can only try to explain this so many times.  15 yard reduction is roughly 1 golf club difference. Instead of a SW to the green, its now a GW.  

 

Look at the driving leaders right now.  Averaging very high distances.  Over the course of the year, that tends to come down.  I suspect due to course type and mix and use of fairway woods and irons perhaps on some of the measured driving holes. That shows that they have more in the tank, a lot more but that the courses themselves tend to limit what is useful distance.  The players will peg that stat still.

 

With a 15 yard reduction many players will still be able to "overpower" any of the old classic courses that are so beloved and said to be part of why this whole roll back discussion exists.

 

Temporarily, your over all tour average might come down but again, this whole conversation comes back unless a very significant reduction takes place.  

 

Im surprised you are only looking at the distance gains/losses in this way. 
 

That is only half the equation.

 

While 15 yards is actually quite a big impact...that’s the difference between Rory and Taylor Gooch ; )

 

The other key is the dispersion as a result in the absurd level of forgiveness in modern toasters vs say...a Titleist 975d.

 

This greatly impacts not just the results but how often and how hard the players will actually “go after it”. 

 

Here is a video of a guy who looks like he drives it about 300 yards comparing an M6 to a 975d.

 

As he says,

 

“The Size of the sweet spot on the 975d is about the size of the tip of a pencil”

 

“We’re gaining maybe 10 or 20 yards. But what we are gaining is a ton of forgiveness. 

My mishits with the M6 were still straight down the middle, 300 plus. My mishits with the 975, big flare right. Got to be a lot more precise with the old technology vs. the new technology. “
 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr. Block]

Just now, HappyGilmoresBoots said:

Can we put steer horns on the Caddy as well as the caddie?

Only Club Pro Guy could pull that off. 

[jons1]

The real question is, when will they stop handing out those old trophies... and start giving out belts

 

 

 

 

 

 

This guy won both the Masters and the US Open in the same season... 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by jons1

[QuigleyDU]

3 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Well @QuigleyDU apparently you have to take one for the team and demonstrate your prowess in a tour event.  Let us all know which one so we can cheer you on.

I would shoot 100... 

[clevited]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Im surprised you are only looking at the distance gains/losses in this way. 
 

That is only half the equation.

 

While 15 yards is actually quite a big impact...that’s the difference between Rory and Taylor Gooch ; )

 

The other key is the dispersion as a result in the absurd level of forgiveness in modern toasters vs say...a Titleist 975d.

 

This greatly impacts not just the results but how often and how hard the players will actually “go after it”. 

 

Here is a video of a guy who looks like he drives it about 300 yards comparing an M6 to a 975d.

 

As he says,

 

“The Size of the sweet spot on the 975d is about the size of the tip of a pencil”

 

“We’re gaining maybe 10 or 20 yards. But what we are gaining is a ton of forgiveness. 

My mishits with the M6 were still straight down the middle, 300 plus. My mishits with the 975, big flare right. Got to be a lot more precise with the old technology vs. the new technology. “
 

 

 

 

 

 

 I have seen plenty of tests with older equipment like that.  None of which has ever convinced me a pga tour pro, with that era older equipment and some practice to get familiar with them, wouldn't be able to crush them almost as far as modern day stuff.  

 

I would love to see what a tour pro can do with one of those set up to his liking, with a steel shaft.  That might be a more informative test to see exactly what a person could expect to see happen on tour.

 

If you find a video of that, let me know, I would love to see it.

[milesgiles]

2 hours ago, oikos1 said:

I understand better now where you are coming from, and I honestly don't think there are many PGA Tour fans or amateur players who want to see players forced to swing "cautiously" just to keep it under 300 yards.  That's just not where the game is at today and more than likely will never be.  From the beginning, the human condition has had a great appreciation for "pushing the limits".

 

I’m all for pushing the limits in golf but I always thought there was a bit more to it than just swinging as hard as possible.

 

Reduce the tee and therefore the clubhead size, you can still choose to swing flat out.. but you’ll pay the price if it’s not accurately applied..as it should be.

 

460cc and a 3” tee is bowling with the bumpers up. 

[milesgiles]

4 minutes ago, clevited said:

 I have seen plenty of tests with older equipment like that.  None of which has ever convinced me a pga tour pro, with that era older equipment and some practice to get familiar with them, wouldn't be able to crush them almost as far as modern day stuff.  

 

I would love to see what a tour pro can do with one of those set up to his liking, with a steel shaft.  That might be a more informative test to see exactly what a person could expect to see happen on tour.

 

If you find a video of that, let me know, I would love to see it.

 

So if the 460cc doesn’t make the game any easier why allow it? Seems to be a gap in your logic. Again. 

[mahonie]

5 minutes ago, clevited said:

 I have seen plenty of tests with older equipment like that.  None of which has ever convinced me a pga tour pro, with that era older equipment and some practice to get familiar with them, wouldn't be able to crush them almost as far as modern day stuff.  

 

I would love to see what a tour pro can do with one of those set up to his liking, with a steel shaft.  That might be a more informative test to see exactly what a person could expect to see happen on tour.

 

If you find a video of that, let me know, I would love to see it.

Here you go:

 

 

 

 

[mahonie]

39 minutes ago, jons1 said:

The real question is, when will they stop handing out those old trophies... and start giving out belts

 

 

 

 

 

 

This guy won both the Masters and the US Open in the same season... 

 

 

 

 

 

BCD will be presented with a green hoodie in about a month’s time 😂😂😂

[clevited]

48 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

So if the 460cc doesn’t make the game any easier why allow it? Seems to be a gap in your logic. Again. 

 

Thanks for the insult. Again. You are such a lovely person to have a discussion with you know that?

 

No gap in my logic.  460 cc helps the am, which is why it came about.  It doesn't do near as much for the pro.  When you hit the same spot practically every single time, the extra forgiveness doesn't come into play as often.  It is a factor sure, how much is highly debatable which is why an actual test with a pga pro would be needed to learn anything.

 

Wth that, I struggle to find a pro that has trouble hitting a fairway wood or a driving iron, especially off a short tee.  The speeds they hit those things jives well when you take into consideration the weight increase and length change.  Meaning, they seem to hit often with as much effort as they would a stock driver shot.

 

@QuigleyDU did a nice test.  Maybe we should ask him if he would hold back more with the mini driver on the course or in a tournament.  Keeping in mind he is not a pro, I would be interested to know his opinion regardless of what he says.

Edited October 24, 2020 by clevited
fixed typos

[NRJyzr]

45 minutes ago, clevited said:

 I have seen plenty of tests with older equipment like that.  None of which has ever convinced me a pga tour pro, with that era older equipment and some practice to get familiar with them, wouldn't be able to crush them almost as far as modern day stuff.  

 

I would love to see what a tour pro can do with one of those set up to his liking, with a steel shaft.  That might be a more informative test to see exactly what a person could expect to see happen on tour.

 

If you find a video of that, let me know, I would love to see it.

 

It's not about distance so much as consistency.  Especially that of a directional nature.  Dustin Johnson's effort with Jack's persimmon driver showed that, he hit it 318 and didn't give it the Full Monty.

 

But the smaller head, due to the lower MOI, will produce more lateral movement.  Sometimes as you'd like, and sometimes when you may not care for it.  😉