22 degree 4-Hybrid vs 22 degree 4-iron: pros and cons?

[RoyalMustang]

6 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

you think a tour pro is 8/10 or 9/10 from the fairway at 220?!!?

 

its not even close. They’re not even that good from 150.

 

golfers remember great shots and forget average shots.  You seem like a good guy and you make good, interesting posts.  That said, there is no way in hell you “often hit the green with a 4 iron with a good swing.”

 

also, don’t pick clubs based on sample sizes of 10 swings on the range.

 

You are telling me that a tour pro can't go to the teebox from 150 on an executive course, shoot into a normal-sized green with a 9-iron and not be putting 8 out of 10 times?  Those guys would be something like 17 GIR in a situation like that, probably shooting 6 under at least on the typical muni par 3.  When I see these local up and coming touring pros and D1 players on the range here, their dispersion is incredibly tight.  

 

I can always PM you the details of my past 5 rounds if you are interested.  Maybe I just got lucky, but from 190+, I hit 9 of the 16 shots I took.  I never said I was a great player; I am very comfortable with long irons however but was wondering if I could get something additional with a hybrid.  

  

 

[aussieb]

My 22* PXG hybrid replaces the 2/3 iron spot, but I still play a 4i HMB (22*) so not a true blade/player's club. I hit more greens and have less flyer issues in the rough with the hybrid over the 3 HMB (18*).  I can't stress enough how the right head/shaft combo can really makes a difference with hybrids.  I have a 220m par 3 that's my nemesis for both distance and wind affected that I haven't missed since putting the hybrid in my bag.

If I wanted to replace the 4i with the PXG, I'd either shorten the shaft .5" to 1" from my 4i length to get the same gapping, or go up in loft with a higher flight.  The beauty of a hybrid is you can have more control because of that shorter shaft. You're essentially hitting a 6i length and getting 4i distance.

[mizunotpz]

The big difference between 4 iron today and 4 iron 10-15 years ago is the fact you can put a lighter graphite shaft in it which will help you hit it higher and with more spin. So nowadays a 4 iron is not just a low draw club. It can do anything you want.

Edited October 24, 2020 by mizunotpz

[ex0dus]

Tour pros play on very firm and fast greens. Holding the green from over 200 yards is a problem most of the time. Keep that in mind when looking at their proximity numbers.

 

When the conditions are soft it is a different game and they can go directly at the pins without worrying about getting 20+ feet of rollout.

Edited October 24, 2020 by ex0dus

[CDLgolf]

For me there are no cons to the hybrid over a 4 iron. I can hit so many shots with a hybrid that I couldnt imagine hitting with a long iron. However it sounds like you are a much stronger iron player than I am. Stick with what works for you or find a hybrid to demo.

[Fairway14]

3 hours ago, ex0dus said:

Tour pros play on very firm and fast greens. Holding the green from over 200 yards is a problem most of the time. Keep that in mind when looking at their proximity numbers.

 

When the conditions are soft it is a different game and they can go directly at the pins without worrying about getting 20+ feet of rollout.

 

Yes, Lee Trevino gives credit to a two hour rain delay for his 1971  18 hole playoff victory at the 1971 US Open, Merion GC. Trevino's ball flight was low trajectory and only after the greens became wet could he carry the bunkers fronting the greens and stop the ball-control his approach shots.

[pinestreetgolf]

4 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

You are telling me that a tour pro can't go to the teebox from 150 on an executive course, shoot into a normal-sized green with a 9-iron and not be putting 8 out of 10 times?  Those guys would be something like 17 GIR in a situation like that, probably shooting 6 under at least on the typical muni par 3.  When I see these local up and coming touring pros and D1 players on the range here, their dispersion is incredibly tight.  

 

I can always PM you the details of my past 5 rounds if you are interested.  Maybe I just got lucky, but from 190+, I hit 9 of the 16 shots I took.  I never said I was a great player; I am very comfortable with long irons however but was wondering if I could get something additional with a hybrid.  

  

 

 

We don't have to guess.  Shotlink tells us what they do.  Making it MUCH easier and only looking at 125-150 (150 is the max, the 150-175 they are just below half GIR.  The average distance from the hole is 19' 6" and the average green on tour is around 50'^2.  If we assume they have perfect alignment to the middle of the green (they do not, they are worse than this) they hit about 6.4/10 from between 125 and 150.  Much worse if you move the pin out of the dead center (which makes the math much harder) or try to isolate only 150.  its probably around half.

 

pros hit, on average, 12 greens a round which means they miss 6.  with their length, they have 150 and in a lot.  nobody is 80-90% from 150.  golf is really, really hard.  your response is typical as people both understimate and overestimate the skill of professions (people think they are 9/10 but they don't get how GOOD 6.4/10 is).

 

anyway, just food for thought.  5 rounds of data doesn't matter at all, and i play hybrid through 5 with a 3 cap because i am a huge fan of never making worse than bogey.  but YMMV.

 

edit - 

 

off a tee the numbers completely change.  i wasn't talking about a 150 yard par 3.

Edited October 25, 2020 by pinestreetgolf

[MPAndreassi]

I’m in the process of building a 4 hybrid to replace my 4 iron. I’ll be playing it the same length as my 4 iron and same loft to keep the gap manageable. 

[ex0dus]

That isn't as simple as you think. If you shorten the shaft you have to add weight to the head and adjust the lie angle appropriately which can be problematic. Shortening the shaft by .5" changes the swingweight by 3 points. 

[thaar]

I love my 4h, but it goes waaay further than a 4i, so I recently added a 4i to my bag to help fill that gap between my 4h and 5i. 

 

And as others have noted, some experience the hooks with hybrids, but I think hybrids give you more versatility and ease to hit out of many lies. It might be worth going 4h and 5h depending on gapping, if you've got room in your bag or need it, but I know that creates issues. I know for me, I don't want to drop any of my wedges since I don't need longer clubs as often.

[jah7838]

On 10/24/2020 at 3:36 PM, RoyalMustang said:

 

I went to the range today with the Srixon test 4-Hybrid and my 4-iron.  I was aiming for a flag 205 out (roughly 220 with a real ball).  

 

I took 10 swings with each: the Srixon w/Smoke 6.0 75g was too light and really inconsistent. I didn't get a good feel for it.  Some pulls, some draws, a duffed shot, and 2 balls that would have been on the green. 

 

My MMC 4-iron was far better.  Out of the 10 swings, 3 were right at the flag, 2 were fairly close and either would have been putts or a fairly short chip, 2 were straight but about 15-20 yards short (hit fat), 2 were roughly 20 yards offline, and the final one was a big miss right.  

 

trajectory-wise, they were about the same.  4H went about 10 yards further but I couldn't hit it consistently. 

 

What shafts are in your irons?  A 75g hybrid shaft is definitely on the light side.  Something with a heavier shaft would probably be more consistent for most people, but if you're hitting a 4 iron as far as high as a hybrid, then a utility type iron with the same shaft as your irons like the HMB, U85, or any of the other ones from various OEMs might be better than a hybrid for you.  

 

But if you're confident you're going to hit your 4 iron well from that far out, then the only reason to change is that you want to or feel that it will help your game. 

[Pepperturbo]

On 10/24/2020 at 1:02 PM, pinestreetgolf said:

4 iron pros: looks cool.

4 iron cons: misses all the time, poor swings add strokes instead of just missing the green

 

4 hybrid pros: hits it in the green complex basically every time

4 hybrid cons: doesn’t look as cool

May be true for you, but not all of us amateurs feel and execute like you think.  Just saying.

 

Yesterday's tour event at Sherwood didn't see much hybrid action into 200 + greens, not even 240 yd green.  Winner, Cantlay, hardly used his 21' hybrid.  It was all long irons or driving irons.  Na and his hybrids were no where to be seen.    

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Pepperturbo

[kiwihacker]

On 10/25/2020 at 9:02 AM, pinestreetgolf said:

4 iron pros: looks cool.

4 iron cons: misses all the time, poor swings add strokes instead of just missing the green

 

4 hybrid pros: hits it in the green complex basically every time

4 hybrid cons: doesn’t look as cool

 I sure wish I owned one of these mythical 4 hybrids that 'hits the green complex every time'. 

 

My 4 hybrid behaves like any other club. If I put a good swing on it hits target. If not it misses left, right or comes up short. Hybrids are great but they are not some infallible panacea for amateur golfers long game. 

[pinestreetgolf]

2 hours ago, kiwihacker said:

 I sure wish I owned one of these mythical 4 hybrids that 'hits the green complex every time'. 

 

My 4 hybrid behaves like any other club. If I put a good swing on it hits target. If not it misses left, right or comes up short. Hybrids are great but they are not some infallible panacea for amateur golfers long game. 

 

By "the green complex" I meant that you get a short game shot.  I play 3,4,5 hybrids.  Generally I have a shot game shot every time after I swing one at a distant green.  My long iron misses are *much* Worse.  Now, of course, as PepperTurbo says, not everyone is the same.  However, if you've never tried a 5 or 6 hybrid, I strongly suggest grabbing a cheap one (the Diablo series are great clubs with good stock shafts that can be had very cheap) and trying it out on the range.  You might be incredibly surprised how effective they can be.

[Justapitchandaputt]

My absolute Sunday best 4 iron is now the regular with my 4 hybrid. 
 

i can hit so many different shots with the hybrid that I can’t with the 4 iron. The only shot I lose with a 4 iron is the low pinch under trees...but it’s easy enough to manipulate a 5 iron. 
 

SS with driver is 116-119mph. Hybrid im

using is TS3 with Evenflow white 95x

[jc4birdie]

Pros:  I can hit a 22* hybrid pretty well about 190.  Toe hits come back left, and the trajectory is really good for me.  Quality of strike is also much better, which I don't quite understand, given that the shaft in the hybrid is longer.  

 

Cons:  I can't hit a 4 iron w/ any consistency.

 

So, the answer for 90% of amateurs is pretty simple.  Better contact, trajectory, hold greens better....all improvements that nearly anyone will have w/ a 22* hybrid over a 4i.  Yeah, it might create the too large yardage gap issue, but honestly, if you're a strong enough player that you create the 210 5i to 240 4H gap, then shots between those distances don't come up very often.   Choke down an inch and a half if you need a 225 shot; trust me you won't need that yardage often unless you play 7400 yard golf courses with regularity. 

 

This topic is interesting, though....and begs another question.  Just WHY do mfrs. put longer shafts in hybrids than what the iron it's replacing has????  I'm not a club builder of any type, nor an equipment junkie, but I'm guessing it has to do w/ swing-weights or overall weight associated w/ the different heads, iron and hybrid, relative to the shafts????  Fact is, wherever in the bag you start pulling irons and replacing them w/ hybrids, the shafts are going to be longer than the iron it replaced, and a yardage gap will ensue.  I noticed it when I took the 5i out couple years back for a 5H....my 160 yard 6i was followed up by by 180 yd. 5H, and b/c I'm not a long hitter, that 170 yd. distance is one I'll have 2-4 times a round, according to the course and weather.  So, what I did was get fitted for irons recently, and chose a set w/ more "modern" loft (read:  jacked).  Worked out pretty well....now my 6i is my up-to 170 club and the 5H fits nicely at 180, w/ only 1* of loft difference between them. 

[jvincent]

4 minutes ago, jc4birdie said:

This topic is interesting, though....and begs another question.  Just WHY do mfrs. put longer shafts in hybrids than what the iron it's replacing has???? 

 

One reason, distance.

 

A 4H with a one inch (or longer) shaft than a 4i is going to hit the ball longer. Distance sells.

[DShark1]

Not saying you do or don’t, however with distances with a 4 iron like that why are you worried about getting more? That is why they make fairway woods. This whole topic is B.S. to even ask. Sounds like you should be focused on your short game and whether or not you should carry more wedges if you’re not scratch with those iron distances. Typical distance junkie worried about making par 5’s in 2 when most courses only play 4 holes with par 5’s. 14 other holes with 4 par 3’s and 10 par fours and your worried about distance for par 5’s. Learn to get up and down with wedges and get good at putting and you will see your scores drop. Learn to score from 125 yds in to improve your scores. Chasing distance will never improve your scores

[playit]

On 10/24/2020 at 11:55 AM, cardoustie said:

How are you always hitting greens from that far out?  Isn’t the avg proximity for +7 PGA tour players something like 47 feet from 225?

 

I find for me a 4h can be hit both ways and high and low .. plus it is way easier from the rough ... YMMV

 

for me hybrid shafts are like driver shafts .. you need the right one

 

So many stronger players hit a hybrid with a 65g stiff shaft and then disaster ensues

 

Drop in a 90 x and watch the MAGIC

 

Could you expand on the 'disaster' and the 'magic' of 65g vs 90g? Always eager to learn about equipment.

[playit]

On 10/24/2020 at 6:30 PM, mizunotpz said:

The big difference between 4 iron today and 4 iron 10-15 years ago is the fact you can put a lighter graphite shaft in it which will help you hit it higher and with more spin. So nowadays a 4 iron is not just a low draw club. It can do anything you want.

 

Do you know of anyone who puts a lighter graphite shaft in a 4i and if they do, is that the only club they do such or all long irons or just what? Just curious, thanks.

[playit]

On 10/24/2020 at 6:38 PM, ex0dus said:

Tour pros play on very firm and fast greens. Holding the green from over 200 yards is a problem most of the time. Keep that in mind when looking at their proximity numbers.

 

When the conditions are soft it is a different game and they can go directly at the pins without worrying about getting 20+ feet of rollout.

 

Yep, I think you are right about their greens. As for accuracy and dispersion, seems to me they are throwing darts. From 150, I'd bet they are on my greens 9/10, at least, and shooting at the pins. Those guys are friggin machines; go watch them at the driving range. Machines.

[Billfitz]

On 10/27/2020 at 8:19 AM, jvincent said:

 

One reason, distance.

 

A 4H with a one inch (or longer) shaft than a 4i is going to hit the ball longer. Distance sells.

In most cases the 4H and 4i will hit about the same length. The major difference is that the 4H has more loft, so it's easier to hit, especially if you have a sweep swing with the longer clubs. Distance does sell, easy to hit sells better.

[Billfitz]

7 minutes ago, playit said:

 

Do you know of anyone who puts a lighter graphite shaft in a 4i and if they do, is that the only club they do such or all long irons or just what? Just curious, thanks.

I have lightweight senior flex graphite shafts in all my clubs, because that's what works best for me. What' works best for me is no indicator of what might work best for you.

[NevinW]

It depends on how much wind you play in and how thick the rough is.  In Las Vegas and Reno it was 4 iron all the way.  Here in West Virginia the hybrids are much more useful.  My 4, 22 degree hybrid is very useful out of thick rough that would twist a 4 iron.  

[mikealex07]

I think it is an awesome idea to get rid of the 4 iron and replace it with a 4 hybrid.. the longest iron i have in my bag is a 6 iron.. I have a 4 and 5 hybrid to replace my 4 and 5 iron and that was the best decision i have ever made.. hybrids are more forgiving and goes a little farther than long iron.. you will always strike the ball better with a hybrid than a long iron..

[Justsomeguy]

On 10/23/2020 at 7:58 PM, Fairway14 said:

 

The only players swinging 4-iron these days should be those with the swing speed to get high enough shot trajectory that the ball stops on the greens reasonably well. Or, those players on courses with open fronts to greens so that a shot may land a bit short and bounce and roll to the hole (links golf).

22*-23* hybrids are great for all players except maybe those with especially high swing speeds. The hybrid shots fly on a higher trajectory than a 4-iron, stop faster on greens, can be played from rough, sloped, hardpan and other less than ideals more easily than a 4-iron.

 

This.

Unless your 4i is flying high stopping, you need a hybrid. I'd venture that most people need a 4h and don't do it, instead make do with a low rolling shot which isn't bad, but isn't ideal.

5i is the biggest iron I carry, but I skip to 3h bc the practical distance gap isn't enough to use anything in-between, and I like the extra wedge.

[zrheisler22]

I’ve tried to kick my normal T100 4 iron to the bag because it simply doesn’t go high enough (80ft peak compared to ~100 with the rest of the bag) but can never get comfortable with a 4H. Thinking about grabbing a T200 4iron which will gap better.

 

I also just cut down the length of my 3H (19.5) to play at 39.5 inches to bring it closer in line with the 4 iron carry that I expect. Ideally carry the 4I about 205 and was having the 3H going 225-230

[ShortGolfer]

Another option may be an older hybrid that hasn't been influenced by recent game improvement technology.

It sounds like you are quite willing to trade some distance and forgiveness to get more  consistency.

 

SGI clubs are well suited for the Executive course I play. 

Near misses may bounce back into the narrow fairways.  I had balls roll from one side of the fairway to the other!

A bad slice or hook may end up into an adjacent fairway or OB.  I play one hole from a different tee to help stay in bounds.

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by ShortGolfer

[manima1]

Should we be comparing a 5H to a 4iron?  In my eyes a 4H is more of a 2i/3i replacement unless swing speed is such that you aren't getting proper distance out of the 4i.  

[Billfitz]

7 hours ago, manima1 said:

Should we be comparing a 5H to a 4iron?  In my eyes a 4H is more of a 2i/3i replacement unless swing speed is such that you aren't getting proper distance out of the 4i.  

It depends on loft, and by no means is there any standard for what loft a 5H or a 4i are. There are some 4i that have more loft than some 5H.