Philosophical debate - fix a weakness or enhance a strength?

[Luv2kruz]

I was thinking about improvement of various parts of my game. I'm a good ball striker and hit about 64% of my greens in regulation. I've struggled lately with my short game and although I have practiced and improved, I'm still not where I want to be. One school of thought is to practice and improve my weakness (i.e. short game). Another school of thought is to enhance my strength (i.e. ball striking), so that my weakness doesn't get tested as much and has less impact on my scoring. Which approach would you choose and why?

[Yoshifan151]

1 hour ago, Luv2kruz said:

I was thinking about improvement of various parts of my game. I'm a good ball striker and hit about 64% of my greens in regulation. I've struggled lately with my short game and although I have practiced and improved, I'm still not where I want to be. One school of thought is to practice and improve my weakness (i.e. short game). Another school of thought is to enhance my strength (i.e. ball striking), so that my weakness doesn't get tested as much and has less impact on my scoring. Which approach would you choose and why?

Improve your weakness without a doubt. Especially in your case, since improving your short game will help with lowering your scores by giving you better looks at saving par opposed to making bogey.

[JDCON]

I can think of many mediocre players who are "great ball-strikers" but have poor short games. However, there are plenty of great players who are just so so ball-strikers, but have a great short game. Part of the reason is the short game takes up a disproportionate amount of a round of golf. Improve your short game and you'll see your handicap drop.

[kmay__]

I say attack the weakness, my putting has always been really streaky so I committed over winter to practice and decided to change some things with my putting and so far this season it seems to be working and its a rewarding feeling. Plus short game practice is the best, haha, find a green and just try to get up and down from lots of different spots, use all your wedges learn the different trajectories and techniques to add spin when needed, and play the bump n run when it suits the situation. If you got a buddy in a similar boat make a little game of it, closest too from various spots around the green. Or drop 5 in a spot and try to get all 5 within a 5-10 ft circle of the cup before you change spots. (like a putting drill) 

 

Anything like that, I find short game practice to be very enjoyable so my short game has improved more than other parts of my game personally. No matter how dialed your approaches are there's always gonna be missed greens and the need for your short game to bail ya out. I know that as someone who hits very few GIR hahaha, maybe I need to take my own advice and focus more on my approach game lol.

[jholz]

I agree with the consensus. No matter how good your ball striking, you aren't going to hit 100% of greens and you aren't always going to put the ball at kick-in distance. 

 

The short game is indispensable. 

 

It's also funny, if you take some pressure off of your approach shots by becoming better at the short game, you will probably see improvement in your ball striking as well. 

[ezpz]

It depends on how much of your planned improvement you are going to be able to internalize. Is your weakness down to lacking practice? Or do you need a technique overhaul to improve a certain area. Speaking for myself, my ballstriking has always been my weakness, started as a junior and always had a slice. I got obsessed with overhauling technique, taking lessons, hitting tons of balls trying everything I could. However it was just not within my ability to internalize these things and just caused me to play with more stress. I focused on trying to make my weaknesses servicable (my swing still looks like a seizure and I don't hit it long but have  a realiable fade) and trying to improve my strengths so I could always count on them (chip/pitching/putting). I'm only a slightly better player now but I'm more fun than ever on the course. I'll never be a scratch golfer but my goal for this year is to get down to a 5 and It should be doable.

 

Kind of a long post but what I'm trying to say is, figuring out how you (not justin rose) can get the ball around is imo the most important part of golf and I wish I'd figured that out 10 yrs ago 🙂

[b.mattay]

The answer is both. Improving your ball striking=more greens and the ability to leave yourself easier short game shots when you miss. Improved short game=more up and downs. 

[b.mattay]

26 minutes ago, JDCON said:

I can think of many mediocre players who are "great ball-strikers" but have poor short games. However, there are plenty of great players who are just so so ball-strikers, but have a great short game. Part of the reason is the short game takes up a disproportionate amount of a round of golf. Improve your short game and you'll see your handicap drop.

I've never met a mediocre player who is a "great ball striker"! The few people I've met who I would consider a great ball striker are a +4 handicap or better. When you don't miss many greens, short game doesn't impact your score much. 

 

Also, in a tournament, I'm putting my money on the ball-striker. Harder to get up and down when the rough grows, greens speed up and get firm.

Edited April 22, 2021 by b.mattay

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, Luv2kruz said:

Which approach would you choose and why?

 

The easy answer is which one is costing you more strokes.

 

The introduction of strokes gained changed the approach of a lot of tour pros and applies equally to hacks like us. I think it was Justin Rose before he got to #1 was constantly working on his short game until they looked at the numbers and figured out that he was actually ahead of the field in that area but way behind tee to green. Worked on his driving and iron play and got to number one.

 

The traditional "old guy" wisdom was that short game trumped everything. That's simply not true for everyone. In your case since you hit a lot more GIR than most amateurs it may actually make sense. Unless of course on the other 6 holes where you aren't hitting GIR you are taking penalty strokes off the tee. If that were the case then I'd say work on your driver.

[Luv2kruz]

Just now, b.mattay said:

When you don't miss many greens, short game doesn't impact your score much. 

That's the essence of the debate.

 

Firstly, I have to say that my short game is not that bad. I went through a stretch where I was about 30-40% U/D conversion, but now I am pretty much back to where I was before at around 50%. I'm a single digit player, so comparing both my ball striking and short game to various benchmarks, I am about where I should be on both fronts. So part of the debate I am having is which area will give me the most bang for the buck for the any additional time invested in practice and improved technique? How much more can I squeeze from my long game vs. short game? Is it more realistic to get to 70% GIR or to get to 60% U/D, for example. This is where I think strokes gained would give me a better answer, but I don't track those stats. Any ideas on how to make the assesment of which area to work on?

 

[b.mattay]

8 minutes ago, Luv2kruz said:

That's the essence of the debate.

 

Firstly, I have to say that my short game is not that bad. I went through a stretch where I was about 30-40% U/D conversion, but now I am pretty much back to where I was before at around 50%. I'm a single digit player, so comparing both my ball striking and short game to various benchmarks, I am about where I should be on both fronts. So part of the debate I am having is which area will give me the most bang for the buck for the any additional time invested in practice and improved technique? How much more can I squeeze from my long game vs. short game? Is it more realistic to get to 70% GIR or to get to 60% U/D, for example. This is where I think strokes gained would give me a better answer, but I don't track those stats. Any ideas on how to make the assesment of which area to work on?

 

What is your current handicap? I know you said single digits, but in my mind, I would think it would be scratch or better given your GIR. For reference, I played to a +1.6 last year (scoring average 72.5 ish), hit 70% GIR and had an up and down percentage of 42% (I am certain that is for non-bunker situations though-I was 59% from bunkers).

 

As far as improvement, I think you need to ask a few more questions: 

1.) How many penalties do you take with the long game?

2.) How often do you take more than 3 shots to get up and down? 

3.) What is your proximity like? Hitting a green is great, but if you play on huge greens and have a bunch of 60 footers it isn't great for scoring. 

4.) How often do you three putt?

Edited April 22, 2021 by b.mattay

[jholz]

I think we all need to recognize that a GIR of 64% is pretty frickin' phenomenal. There isn't much room to move on that one. 

 

We could perhaps consider proximity to the hole, however.

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by jholz

[b.mattay]

Just now, jholz said:

I think we all need to recognize that a GIR of 64% is pretty frickin' phenomenal. There isn't much room to move on that one. 

Depends on the course! Some courses have huge greens. I have a course 20 minutes away from house that I'm certain I would average 85%+ GIR on if I played it over a season. Context is important! If you are doing it on tiny postage stamp type greens, it is certainly incredible.

[Ferguson]

Harvey Penick stated, "in golf, you should always work from your strengths." 

 

 

How many times have we seen at a guy at the range hitting 60-80 balls with a bad swing, technically? 

All he's doing is grooving a bad swing. 

 

 

[RmoorePE]

I think if you do the math you will find out that 60% of your shots are within 100 yards of the hole, BUT a lot of those are short putts, so my answer is to eliminate the short putts.

 

Seriously. I have a friend who is one of the best 5' and in putters walking upright. He doesn't ever leave a 5' (or closer) putt short and he rarely misses them, maybe 1/20. He always states that from anywhere around the green he can draw a 10' circle of confidence and that of course leads to better chipping and pitching by being relaxed about the outcome. Definitely the best player I play with regularly.

 

He will also not take a gimme, even though every putt within 3' is a no brainer gimme for him. If you say "thats a gimme" he will make his tap in while staring you in the eyes.

 

I would like to try to get there with my putting , but putting practice is too boring so I just go on the range and practice stingers all the time.

[Luv2kruz]

30 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

What is your current handicap? I know you said single digits, but in my mind, I would think it would be scratch or better given your GIR. For reference, I played to a +1.6 last year (scoring average 72.5 ish), hit 70% GIR and had an up and down percentage of 42% (I am certain that is for non-bunker situations though-I was 59% from bunkers).

 

As far as improvement, I think you need to ask a few more questions: 

1.) How many penalties do you take with the long game?

2.) How often do you take more than 3 shots to get up and down? 

3.) What is your proximity like? Hitting a green is great, but if you play on huge greens and have a bunch of 60 footers it isn't great for scoring. 

4.) How often do you three putt?

 

Current index is 1.2. Average score ~75

 

1) Average around 1 penalty every two games with the long game. 

2) Don't know. Don't track that specifically. I guess I could calculate based on avg 6 greens missed/rnd, 50% conversion, therefore 3 times per round it takes me 3 to get down. Rarely take more than 3. 

3) Average proximity is around 42 feet, including all missed greens. Don't know proximity for only GIR.

4) Rarely three putt. Lag putting is a great strength. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Luv2kruz

[jholz]

9 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

Depends on the course! Some courses have huge greens. I have a course 20 minutes away from house that I'm certain I would average 85%+ GIR on if I played it over a season. Context is important! If you are doing it on tiny postage stamp type greens, it is certainly incredible.

 

You are correct, of course. But, I'm looking at it from the whole "all things being equal" perspective.

[Luv2kruz]

42 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

The easy answer is which one is costing you more strokes.

 

The introduction of strokes gained changed the approach of a lot of tour pros and applies equally to hacks like us. I think it was Justin Rose before he got to #1 was constantly working on his short game until they looked at the numbers and figured out that he was actually ahead of the field in that area but way behind tee to green. Worked on his driving and iron play and got to number one.

 

The traditional "old guy" wisdom was that short game trumped everything. That's simply not true for everyone. In your case since you hit a lot more GIR than most amateurs it may actually make sense. Unless of course on the other 6 holes where you aren't hitting GIR you are taking penalty strokes off the tee. If that were the case then I'd say work on your driver.

 

Bingo! But without tracking strokes gained, how does one figure that out?

[b.mattay]

1 hour ago, Luv2kruz said:

 

Current index is 1.2. Average score ~75

 

1) Average around 1 penalty every two games with the long game. 

2) Don't know. Don't track that specifically. I guess I could calculate based on avg 6 greens missed/rnd, 50% conversion, therefore 3 times per round it takes me 3 to get down. Rarely take more than 3. 

3) Average proximity is around 42 feet, including all missed greens. Don't know proximity for only GIR.

4) Rarely three putt. Lag putting is a great strength. 

Solid stats. Doesn't look like you waste too many shots, which is good! I did some very rough calcs with an average of par on greens hit and "par +0.5" on greens missed. Didn't include penalties for simplicity.

 

Greens Hit: (0.64*18*4)=46.08

Greens Missed: (0.36*18*4.5)=29.16

Total: 75.24 

 

Based on this (admittedly rough) math, getting up and down 10% more often would save about 2/3 of a stroke. I think the short answer is to make more birdies, which is a byproduct of proximity. What do you average for birdies/round?

 

Also:

How is your (distance) wedge game? How far do you hit the ball? Do you take advantage of par 5's? 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by b.mattay

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, Luv2kruz said:

 

Bingo! But without tracking strokes gained, how does one figure that out?

 

From your more recent posts you're at the point where you really need some detailed stats from something like Arccos or the 18birdies app.

 

As you already know the better you get, the harder it is to shave strokes.

 

One of our clubs best players is fantastic tee to green. He probably hits more greens than you so for him it's all about getting it in the hole so you'll see him on the putting green doing various drills.

 

As a couple others have suggested if you could improve your GIR by a couple per round and improve your proximity to the hole those are probably the best way to improve. How to get there is really the question.

 

You didn't mention how far you hit driver. Shorter clubs into greens should improve both GIR and proximity so maybe adding 10-15 yards off the tee is the right answer.

[Luv2kruz]

31 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

Solid stats. Doesn't look like you waste too many shots, which is good! I did some very rough calcs with an average of par on greens hit and "par +0.5" on greens missed. Didn't include penalties for simplicity.

 

Greens Hit: (0.64*18*4)=46.08

Greens Missed: (0.36*18*4.5)=29.16

Total: 75.24 

 

Based on this (admittedly rough) math, getting up and down 10% more often would save about 2/3 of a stroke. I think the short answer is to make more birdies, which is a byproduct of proximity. What do you average for birdies/round?

 

Also:

How is your (distance) wedge game? How far do you hit the ball? Do you take advantage of par 5's? 

 

 

Average between 255-265 off the tee (my course is generally soft, so that's mostly carry). BTW, I'm 53, so I'm on the downside of the distance game. Average -.12 strokes on par 5s, so I do take advantage of them. Don't track birdies/rd, but I would guess about 2 per round (usually get at least one and as many as 3-4). When I do miss the green, my chipping/pitching proximity is around 7 to 10 feet from under 25 yds, around 16 feet from 25-50 yards. I've been working on get better from both those ranges, which is partly why my U/D game has recovered. Average about about 25-30ft proximity with wedges. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Luv2kruz

[phizzy30]

Work on your weakness for sure.  That's the only sure fire way to improve scores and drop handicap.  For me, my weakness will always be ball striking granted I have improved over the years.  I still work hard at it, but am now having to put in more time to my chipping and putting.  Strengths are distance and putting which I work on, but not as much as the other parts of my game. 

[b.mattay]

1 hour ago, Luv2kruz said:

 

Average between 255-265 off the tee (my course is generally soft, so that's mostly carry). BTW, I'm 53, so I'm on the downside of the distance game. Average -.12 strokes on par 5s, so I do take advantage of them. Don't track birdies/rd, but I would guess about 2 per round (usually get at least one and as many as 3-4). When I do miss the green, my chipping/pitching proximity is around 7 to 10 feet from under 25 yds, around 16 feet from 25-50 yards. I've been working on get better from both those ranges, which is partly why my U/D game has recovered. Average about about 25-30ft proximity with wedges. 

Solid stuff again! Looks like incremental improvements in everything is the best way to be honest. A little more distance, a little better with the wedges, a little better around the greens should add up to more birdies, less bogeys. May also want to look at strategy stuff (like Decade) to reduce bogeys from short-sided spots or tough bunkers etc. 

[Luv2kruz]

1 hour ago, phizzy30 said:

Work on your weakness for sure.  That's the only sure fire way to improve scores and drop handicap.  For me, my weakness will always be ball striking granted I have improved over the years.  I still work hard at it, but am now having to put in more time to my chipping and putting.  Strengths are distance and putting which I work on, but not as much as the other parts of my game. 

I appreciate your input, but I'll disagree with the statement that fixing a weakness is the 'only sure fire way' to improve scores. I read a book many years ago while I was in management that challenged conventional wisdom about talent and performance. It was called 'Now, Discover your Strengths'. The key message is that typical performance management in companies centers around fixing employee weaknesses. The author (who partnered with the Gallup organization) actually showed that increasing employees strengths can actually be a path to higher levels of personal and organizational performance, more so than fixing weaknesses. I believe that principle can apply to lots of other things, possibly including golf, and that's why I posed my original question.

In golf there are many paths to lowering scores. You can improve long game, short, putting or a combination of all. If someone really enjoys practicing ball striking and has a knack for it, maybe they will get better returns from improving that further vs. praticing putting, which they may find boring or simply don't have the skills to master. Maybe, as someone mentioned above, you have a nice backyard and can practice short game stuff more easily than the long game. Maybe improving your long game is getting more difficuly becuase of age. It really is different for each person and there are more than just a few variables to consider. What level of improvement is possible for me might be different based on my factors and where I am at with my game vs. someone else factors/skills/interests/etc and where they are at with their game. 

 

Anyway, I was just looking for some thoughts on whether anyone else has thought about it in the way I was postulating vs the standard answer that its 'always the short game or putting'. The guys who developed the strokes gained methodology certainly dispelled that idea. 

 

BTW. This article kind of suggested that Dj is doing the same thing, leveraging stregths (ball striking/short game) to overcome a weakness, putting (https://www.pgatour.com/link-to-the-future/2015/07/22/mark-broadie.html). In the article, Broadie mentions that in 2015,

 

1) He is second in putting average (putts per GIR) and 13th in putts per round and, in strokes gained: putting, he’s ranked 125th. Those are huge differences. One says he looks like the best putter on TOUR and one says he is below average

2) There’s a simple reason for that. He’s such a good ball-striker, and has such a good short game, that his putts start way closer to the hole than an average TOUR player, so he takes fewer putts and he takes fewer putts per greens in regulation not because he’s a better putter but because he’s starting closer to the hole.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Luv2kruz

[Luv2kruz]

6 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

Solid stuff again! Looks like incremental improvements in everything is the best way to be honest. A little more distance, a little better with the wedges, a little better around the greens should add up to more birdies, less bogeys. May also want to look at strategy stuff (like Decade) to reduce bogeys from short-sided spots or tough bunkers etc. 

 

I kind figured that would be the answer as there is really no major strengths or major weakness to my game when compare myself to various benchmarks. The pluses and minuses are relatively small and there is no glaring opportunity. 

 

BTW, I ran some numbers and I figured a 10% improvement in GIR would get me 0.9 of a stroke and a 10% improvement in U/D would get me 0.72 of a stroke, which is basically what you said. I'll likely speculate that a couple of days/weeks of chipping/pitching practice might allow me to get that 10%, while it would likely take weeks/months of practice to get the 10% GIR improvement. So, from a bang for the buck perspective, working on the short game is likely the fastest path to improvement, while the working on the long game is likely to get me the most improvement. I suspect that might be true for all levels. 

 

Anyway, thanks for the input. 

[Nels55]

@luv2kruz, interesting topic!

Ben Hogan said "There isn’t enough daylight in any one day to practice all the shots you need to."

It seems that the best way to improve is to practice both short game and long game putting in as much time as you have available!  My game is similar to yours just at a lower level.  LOL if I had your short game then I would work a lot harder on my long game and vice versa!  As it is I need to improve both of them...

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, Luv2kruz said:

I appreciate your input, but I'll disagree with the statement that fixing a weakness is the 'only sure fire way' to improve scores. I read a book many years ago while I was in management that challenged conventional wisdom about talent and performance. It was called 'Now, Discover your Strengths'. The key message is that typical performance management in companies centers around fixing employee weaknesses. The author (who partnered with the Gallup organization) actually showed that increasing employees strengths can actually be a path to higher levels of personal and organizational performance, more so than fixing weaknesses. I believe that principle can apply to lots of other things, possibly including golf, and that's why I posed my original question.

In golf there are many paths to lowering scores. You can improve long game, short, putting or a combination of all. If someone really enjoys practicing ball striking and has a knack for it, maybe they will get better returns from improving that further vs. praticing putting, which they may find boring or simply don't have the skills to master. Maybe, as someone mentioned above, you have a nice backyard and can practice short game stuff more easily than the long game. Maybe improving your long game is getting more difficuly becuase of age. It really is different for each person and there are more than just a few variables to consider. What level of improvement is possible for me might be different based on my factors and where I am at with my game vs. someone else factors/skills/interests/etc and where they are at with their game. 

 

Anyway, I was just looking for some thoughts on whether anyone else has thought about it in the way I was postulating vs the standard answer that its 'always the short game or putting'. The guys who developed the strokes gained methodology certainly dispelled that idea. 

 

BTW. This article kind of suggested that Dj is doing the same thing, leveraging stregths (ball striking/short game) to overcome a weakness, putting (https://www.pgatour.com/link-to-the-future/2015/07/22/mark-broadie.html). In the article, Broadie mentions that in 2015,

 

1) He is second in putting average (putts per GIR) and 13th in putts per round and, in strokes gained: putting, he’s ranked 125th. Those are huge differences. One says he looks like the best putter on TOUR and one says he is below average

2) There’s a simple reason for that. He’s such a good ball-striker, and has such a good short game, that his putts start way closer to the hole than an average TOUR player, so he takes fewer putts and he takes fewer putts per greens in regulation not because he’s a better putter but because he’s starting closer to the hole.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're right, I should've worded it better by saying it's one way instead of only. 

[lefthack]

I hate putting, so I don't practice it as much as I should. But I get real enjoyment out of solid iron strikes. So I hit those WAY more in practice. If I get good enough to not need as much practice, I might work on my putting. The greens have dried out now as well.

[TheDeanAbides]

15 hours ago, Luv2kruz said:

 

Average between 255-265 off the tee (my course is generally soft, so that's mostly carry). BTW, I'm 53, so I'm on the downside of the distance game. Average -.12 strokes on par 5s, so I do take advantage of them. Don't track birdies/rd, but I would guess about 2 per round (usually get at least one and as many as 3-4). When I do miss the green, my chipping/pitching proximity is around 7 to 10 feet from under 25 yds, around 16 feet from 25-50 yards. I've been working on get better from both those ranges, which is partly why my U/D game has recovered. Average about about 25-30ft proximity with wedges. 

My friend is the same age as you. Good ballstriker, good player (cat 1), decent short game. He spent lockdown working on CHS with Speed sticks. He's gone from 105 to 110 mph in that time. Do that and you're improving that proximity to the hole. 

[SNIPERBBB]

Law of diminishing returns says that the gains from improving a weakness will require less time and energy and provide bigger rewards than working on your strengths for likely marginal gains.

 

Maintain your strengths so they don't get rusty but put the bulk of your practice on fixing a weakness.