I felt cheated about buying from Club Champions after hearing this ... I'm calling it SHAFTGATE!!!

[the bishop]

12 minutes ago, Jmccas said:

I have a fitting scheduled next week with CC.  My best local options are TrueSpec, Golf Galaxy, and CC.  My local GG is terrible and TrueSpec does not carry the same amount of heads as CC so I don't mind paying $150 to demo everything under the sun.  

 

Anybody know if they are flexible (open to negotiation) on their pricing?

Negotiation?  Sure.

[ASN21]

39 minutes ago, Jmccas said:

I have a fitting scheduled next week with CC.  My best local options are TrueSpec, Golf Galaxy, and CC.  My local GG is terrible and TrueSpec does not carry the same amount of heads as CC so I don't mind paying $150 to demo everything under the sun.  

 

Anybody know if they are flexible (open to negotiation) on their pricing?

Open to negotiation lol

[TiScape]

Totally understand the frustration with paying full retail for a driver (and irons)  and getting only the head(s). They should most definitely give a credit for the shaft(s) you are paying for and they’re keeping! I will say it’s slightly offset by the fact you can go in and use the their fitting bay/Trackman to practice. Just call and schedule a time slot. Also if you don’t feel the club(s) you bought from them are performing to your expectations, you can go back and try different combos. If you get better #’s with something else, they will switch it out for you as part of their guarantee. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by TiScape

[smrtchar]

9 hours ago, Jmccas said:

I have a fitting scheduled next week with CC.  My best local options are TrueSpec, Golf Galaxy, and CC.  My local GG is terrible and TrueSpec does not carry the same amount of heads as CC so I don't mind paying $150 to demo everything under the sun.  

 

Anybody know if they are flexible (open to negotiation) on their pricing?

Lol ... they're definitely not open to negotiation, but you will find occasional promo codes (usually in winter months) or deals with the local golf association they will offer. I'd also recommend you checking with the location if they have specific heads and shafts you want to try before setting the appointment. I drove 45 mins further to another location because the CC right next to me didn't have the options I wanted to try.

[erock9174]

On 5/5/2021 at 9:46 AM, cookout14 said:

People love to get heated about CC, so I'm not looking to change anybody's mind... BUT, the premium CC is charging for is not fitting "magic", it's not even a superior fit, it's proximity, availability, and reliability, at scale. 

 

A quick check of their website shows 83 locations, all exclusively dedicated to fitting.  They're presumably staffed by people with some actual qualifications and skill, and I'm guessing for the clientele they're in nicer parts of town in a reasonably nice shopping center or standalone building. 

 

Other club retailers 1) generally don't have those costs, and 2) have other revenue streams like retail, lessons, etc.  What Club Champion is offering is a standalone bay with trackman near you, a fitter with most of the OEM products currently on the market that has a spot in the next few weeks, and build that's guaranteed to be at spec with lifetime work on the club to make sure it's in good shape.  

 

Demo Days, discount websites, big box retailers all have their benefits, but they don't have the cost structure of paying for all three at the same time, & without a subsidy of some kind. 

 

I've had mixed experiences with CC personally, and don't have the budget to pay the premium for everything I buy, but they're aboveboard with their pricing, stand behind the clubs they make (both build quality and fit), and offering a particular service that fits the market right now.  That's not to say CC is a superior service or product to anything else, but the indignance at expecting them to offer the same services at the discount economics can just get out of control here.  

Trackman indoor for fittings .... I just cringed a bit 

[cookout14]

1 hour ago, erock9174 said:

Trackman indoor for fittings .... I just cringed a bit 

Bravo, sir!  Your bit of cringe really added so much value to this discussion.  It affirmed the indignance at CC’s business model, it ignored the guys trying and failing to level set on the reality of their business (like me), and it REALLY helped the poor guys who don’t have a lot of better choices and are trying to decide if they should spend their well earned money on an indoor fitting.  
 

I wish you well on your outdoor trackman and foresight endeavors, and look forward to your recap of how an outdoor, radar-based free fitting from a local guru with every possible shaft and OEM head totally changed your game.  Thank you so much in advance!

 

But, in an attempt to get this thread back to #shaftgate

 

Another alternative to pay for their retail locations, inventory, and fitters would be to ramp up cost of fitting, and reduce cost of build to OEM and online discount rates. If they charged $400 for the driver fitting, but the rest was the same, are you all still convinced it’s a scam?

[erock9174]

8 hours ago, cookout14 said:

Bravo, sir!  Your bit of cringe really added so much value to this discussion.  It affirmed the indignance at CC’s business model, it ignored the guys trying and failing to level set on the reality of their business (like me), and it REALLY helped the poor guys who don’t have a lot of better choices and are trying to decide if they should spend their well earned money on an indoor fitting.  
 

I wish you well on your outdoor trackman and foresight endeavors, and look forward to your recap of how an outdoor, radar-based free fitting from a local guru with every possible shaft and OEM head totally changed your game.  Thank you so much in advance!

 

But, in an attempt to get this thread back to #shaftgate

 

Another alternative to pay for their retail locations, inventory, and fitters would be to ramp up cost of fitting, and reduce cost of build to OEM and online discount rates. If they charged $400 for the driver fitting, but the rest was the same, are you all still convinced it’s a scam?

Whoa... 

 

I was just pointing out in a clever way that I am really surprised Club Champion chose to use Trackman being an indoor fitting type place when there are better monitor options for an indoor setting. 
 

In my case I’ve actually given up on fittings. Been fit for irons and driver and neither stuck long term. I’m around an 8-10 cap and my swing changes too much day to day. I find it better to get clubs off global golfs u try it program or from Tour Edge (30 day money back guarantee) and see what sticks on the course. So I’ve essentially self fit myself and shooting my lowest scores ever. 

 

 

[cookout14]

26 minutes ago, erock9174 said:

Whoa... 

 

I was just pointing out in a clever way that I am really surprised Club Champion chose to use Trackman being an indoor fitting type place when there are better monitor options for an indoor setting. 
 

In my case I’ve actually given up on fittings. Been fit for irons and driver and neither stuck long term. I’m around an 8-10 cap and my swing changes too much day to day. I find it better to get clubs off global golfs u try it program or from Tour Edge (30 day money back guarantee) and see what sticks on the course. So I’ve essentially self fit myself and shooting my lowest scores ever. 

 

 

Just giving you a hard time for trying to be clever on a message board 🤗.  
 

On this board, Club Champion heats people up like Patrick Reed putting in a bag full of autoflexes and becoming Nike’s head golf shoe designer at the same time. 
 

And more more seriously, there is a lot about their model that requires either a super informed consumer or a massive disposable income to feel good about the experience and outcome. 
 

So, I don’t know enough about the launch monitor landscape to agree/disagree with your POV, but I do think this thread as a whole is a shining example of many things someone should be aware of before pulling the trigger on a CC fitting.  

[cristphoto]

23 minutes ago, erock9174 said:

Whoa... 

 

I was just pointing out in a clever way that I am really surprised Club Champion chose to use Trackman being an indoor fitting type place when there are better monitor options for an indoor setting. 
 

In my case I’ve actually given up on fittings. Been fit for irons and driver and neither stuck long term. I’m around an 8-10 cap and my swing changes too much day to day. I find it better to get clubs off global golfs u try it program or from Tour Edge (30 day money back guarantee) and see what sticks on the course. So I’ve essentially self fit myself and shooting my lowest scores ever. 

 

 

 

I agree.  For my last several sets of clubs I've simply gone to my clubs demo days to test all the various combinations.  Once I had to go to another club's demo when I was interested in a brand we didn't carry - no big deal.  I was hitting balls outdoors and had availability for the Trackman (had to reserve a time for this).  I've never gone wanting that a specific shaft wasn't available (I believe the manufacturers are smart enough to provide enough options to cover most everyone's game). Many years ago I did go to a fitter that had outdoor hitting and he showed me countless shafts options (for driver).  I could definitely see and feel the difference between the extreme ends of the spectrum but basically most were somewhat similar.  The money I save by doing a self fitting (I pretty much know my game and specs after over 50 years of playing) cover any upcharge fees for specific options. Though these fees are getting fewer and lower in recent years. 

 

After reading through much of this thread I've come to a couple conclusions.  First CC (to me) gives the appearance of gouging the customer by charging inflated prices on shaft options.  Simply charge a fair price for the fitting and then charge list price for your purchases.  Next I believe the CC market is for the more established and/or better golfer that can make use of the fine tuning available.  I don't believe the beginner golfer whose swing is still evolving should go there and spend thousands of dollars for a fitting that might be useful only for a limited time.  Simply go to your local pro and get some basic recommendations for a set of clubs.   

[JCAG]

On 5/13/2021 at 6:29 PM, Bad9 said:

$400 and $200 respectively.

Close to what I figure. $450 for driver, $250 for re-shaft. The major difference in cost is no $90 head but some club work to unshaft the existing driver, remove or replace shaft adapter (if needed).

 

Even at those prices, I say few on this chat will pay them as they want to do it themselves on the cheap. Nothin wrong with that but it is one reason you have seen a lot of smaller, custom club shops close their doors.

 

When people know the component cost (thanks to the Internet), they balk at final cost ($200/$450 on new club, $110/$250 on reshaft) to them.

 

Personally, I would have no problem paying $800 for a driver if it behaved as I want/need it to. Also no problem paying $2K for a set of irons that behaved as I want/need them to.

Edited May 15, 2021 by JCAG

[liveagua]

I really enjoy threads like this. It helps weed out those who consistently make "bad faith" arguments in order to try and win an argument. 

[TiScape]

8 hours ago, erock9174 said:

Whoa... 

 

I was just pointing out in a clever way that I am really surprised Club Champion chose to use Trackman being an indoor fitting type place when there are better monitor options for an indoor setting. 

 

I actually did a little research and from what I found the Trackman is ok indoors as long as it’s placed far enough from the screen. Off the top of my head I think it was 10’. I’m FAR from anywhere near an expert on the subject. Maybe someone with some professional experience or knowledge on the subject can chime in. 

[Jack Pearsall]

JP is surprised they don't sell warrantee services. 

Anyone else offered undercoating for irons? 

They should add an Environmental Fee for grip disposal.  

[JeffreySpicoli]

3 hours ago, Jack Pearsall said:

JP is surprised they don't sell warrantee services. 

Anyone else offered undercoating for irons? 

They should add an Environmental Fee for grip disposal.  

Haha.

 

JP made JS laugh!

 

Go, JP, go.

 

Hahaha.

[TiScape]

13 hours ago, JeffreySpicoli said:

Haha.

 

JP made JS laugh!

 

Go, JP, go.

 

Hahaha.

All JS needs are some tasty waves, a cool buzz and he’s fine 😎 

Edited May 16, 2021 by TiScape

[JCAG]

On 5/13/2021 at 9:55 AM, Bad9 said:

According to the Club Champion poster on Golfwrx they don't neccarily buy clubs and disassemble. I take this to mean they can and do buy heads only(at least driver heads)

 

While I cannot speak for CC, there are very few OM's that will sell components only and then only to a select few. I do know some will sell shafted only clubs as in uncut for length and the grips separate but one I know still gets full price.

[JCAG]

On 5/12/2021 at 11:18 AM, mjf34g said:

Truth be told "most" golfers could get the same fit at any Top 100 fitting operation using a high quality launch monitor as they would at CC. And also get a build that would preform as well just getting a custom build from an OEM.  And yes I know and have heard the horror stories about OEM builds. But I have had a few builds from a Top 100 builder and fitter that builds to finite quality that I would guarantee is more precise than anything coming out of CC (and who are these top clubmakers building your sticks at CC)?  And I've also had numerous custom OEM products. In the end (at least in my experience) there was no discernable differences in performance or feel between the two which in the end did not affect my scoring in any way. I did do a putter fitting some else which however did. LOL. And yes CC does offer a huge selection of shafts but in most instances you should find a good shaft fit from almost any OEM stocked fitting cart. Unless of course you feel that your game deserves some very high end exotic shaft which CC will gladly fit you into. 

I've visited CC and listened to their pitch and come away un impressed and as someone mentioned that "used car salesmen" vibe.

In the end I feel that CC is more of a vanity fitting for someone who has no issue paying an inflated price and who feels that their supposed higher level of fittings and selection justifies said cost and will help their scoring.  Much like someone playing and insisting that a Tour Cameron makes them a better putter. 

But it is your $ and how you chose to spend it is no ones issue but your own. If it makes you happy go for it. 

Be careful of Top 100 Lists. I can assure you there are some crap fitters on those lists. How about when hey list a store (not a person) when that store has multi employees so you do not know if you got a good or a bad fitter.

 

One Top 100 List is based on how much of their components you bought the past year.

[mjf34g]

10 hours ago, JCAG said:

Be careful of Top 100 Lists. I can assure you there are some crap fitters on those lists. How about when hey list a store (not a person) when that store has multi employees so you do not know if you got a good or a bad fitter.

 

One Top 100 List is based on how much of their components you bought the past year.

The Top 100 guy i referred too is a one man operation who has a great resume and many postive reviews and a great following also. Trust me he is one of the best. 
And you are correct CC is listed on many Top 100 lists. So do your research before you spend your hard earned cash.

I would recommend my guy to anyone without hesitation.

[Thayneil]

On 5/15/2021 at 7:24 PM, erock9174 said:

Whoa... 

 

I was just pointing out in a clever way that I am really surprised Club Champion chose to use Trackman being an indoor fitting type place when there are better monitor options for an indoor setting. 
 

In my case I’ve actually given up on fittings. Been fit for irons and driver and neither stuck long term. I’m around an 8-10 cap and my swing changes too much day to day. I find it better to get clubs off global golfs u try it program or from Tour Edge (30 day money back guarantee) and see what sticks on the course. So I’ve essentially self fit myself and shooting my lowest scores ever. 

 

 

short game putting

 

wedges

 

 

[mgoblue83]

On 5/14/2021 at 9:39 PM, erock9174 said:

Trackman indoor for fittings .... I just cringed a bit 

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with Trackman in a properly set up indoor environment. Every bit as accurate as Quad and it has far better software. 

[Thayneil]

On 5/14/2021 at 10:40 PM, ASN21 said:

Open to negotiation lol

Upwards maybe!

[erock9174]

21 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with Trackman in a properly set up indoor environment. Every bit as accurate as Quad and it has far better software. 

Isn’t the issue the amount of feet before and after the golfer and the unit ?  If so I know the CC near me has a pretty tight space.  

[mgoblue83]

1 minute ago, erock9174 said:

Isn’t the issue the amount of feet before and after the golfer and the unit ?  If so I know the CC near me has a pretty tight space.  

 

Limited space is only an issue for very high speed driver shots (5% of players) because it doesn't have enough time to see 2 full revolutions of spin. People freak out when they see the italicized spin number but in reality the estimated number is still based on data from the first rotation of the ball and is usually within 100 rpm of the actual number (very accurate). The other launch parameters are 100% accurate and the Trackman algorithm is more realistic than Foresight for high speed shots anyway. You get a lot of very inflated carry distances on low spin driver shots on GCQuad.

 

Limited space has absolutely no effect on reading accurate data for average speed players and clubs less than driver. 

[hwwong]

6 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

Limited space is only an issue for very high speed driver shots (5% of players) because it doesn't have enough time to see 2 full revolutions of spin. People freak out when they see the italicized spin number but in reality the estimated number is still based on data from the first rotation of the ball and is usually within 100 rpm of the actual number (very accurate). The other launch parameters are 100% accurate and the Trackman algorithm is more realistic than Foresight for high speed shots anyway. You get a lot of very inflated carry distances on low spin driver shots on GCQuad.

 

Limited space has absolutely no effect on reading accurate data for average speed players and clubs less than driver. 

Oooo good to know.  Felt like trackman was a bit conservative on my carry distances!  I've also been watching a bunch of TXG videos.  Allllll makes sense now...

[mgoblue83]

3 minutes ago, hwwong said:

Oooo good to know.  Felt like trackman was a bit conservative on my carry distances!  I've also been watching a bunch of TXG videos.  Allllll makes sense now...

 

TXG is great but if you watch most of the drives Matt hits in the driver bracket it looks like a tight little draw in the Foresight graphics but its hooking across the entire hole (40-50 yards of hook). It's also showing 330+ carry every swing yet whenever they do outdoor videos he barely hits it 300. One final thought is that the driver that won the bracket last year (Maverick) because it was an all-star on GCQuad was completely unplayable on the course (low spin duck hooks) and he took it out of the bag almost immediately. 

[larciel]

20 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

TXG is great but if you watch most of the drives Matt hits in the driver bracket it looks like a tight little draw in the Foresight graphics but its hooking across the entire hole (40-50 yards of hook). It's also showing 330+ carry every swing yet whenever they do outdoor videos he barely hits it 300. One final thought is that the driver that won the bracket last year (Maverick) because it was an all-star on GCQuad was completely unplayable on the course (low spin duck hooks) and he took it out of the bag almost immediately. 

so it is GCQuad that's bad at catching the correct flight?

 

I get about 20+ yds on my iron shots with GCQuad at my local store.. always wondered what da hell's going on

[mgoblue83]

17 hours ago, larciel said:

so it is GCQuad that's bad at catching the correct flight?

 

I get about 20+ yds on my iron shots with GCQuad at my local store.. always wondered what da hell's going on

 

I think it measures good data but the algorithm they use to calculate carry distance is not the most accurate and it gets way off on high speed/low spin shots. 

 

The other thing to keep in mind is that Quad measures 6inches of flight (if that) and calculates everything based on that. They also have nothing to compare it to outdoors because it measures the same 6inches outdoors that it does indoors. Trackman has the benefit of fine tuning their algorithms by matching real 100% accurate outdoor ball flight with indoor predictions given the same data. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by mgoblue83

[GrandStranded]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

I think it measures good data but the algorithm they use to calculate carry distance is not the most accurate and it gets way off on high speed/high spin shots. 

 

The other thing to keep in mind is that Quad measures 6inches of flight (if that) and calculates everything based on that. They also have nothing to compare it to outdoors because it measures the same 6inches outdoors that it does indoors. Trackman has the benefit of fine tuning their algorithms by matching real 100% accurate outdoor ball flight with indoor predictions given the same data. 

Thanks so much for your last 4 posts.

They were well worth reading through the entire thread for.

[orr444]

On 5/4/2021 at 10:11 PM, smrtchar said:

***Update***

There are over 50 comments so far and I feel a lot of those comments didn't read the post fully. I don't blame you ... it's a long a** rant. So I'm putting a TLDR version so this thread doesn't get too off topic.

 

----------TLDR ----------

When you buy a golf club with upgraded shaft from an OEM, they're cheaper than retail. Ventus w/ Velocore has an upcharge of $250 when retail is $350. This is because OEM's discount the cost of stock shaft which is baked into the original driver cost.

 

Club Champions charges full retail for the driver, which I'm told from a former fitter comes with a stock shaft, then charges full retail for aftermarket shaft. Then they keep the stock shaft without telling the customer and resells it. 

 

Supposedly, they do the same with irons where they order a full set which comes with shafts, then charge the customer a separate set of shafts that they are fit with. Then they keep the stock shaft and resells them.

 

I find this practice infuriating and feel the stock shafts that come with the full retail price of the clubs be given to the customer.

 

-----FULL VERSION-----

BACKGROUND:

I had a really great fitting experience at Club Champions and stayed in touch with my fitter who is now a club pro at a local country club. During our last round after some beers, he started telling us all these weird practices at Club Champions which left me feeling cheated ... I'm still heated about them which is why I wanted to share what I found here. 

 

DISCLAIMER:

I do understand that this is one former fitter's word, but he ended his relationship with Club Champions on good terms and still refer people there. I don't see a reason he'd lie. This also may be just this one Club Champions' shadiness; I didn't investigate this enough to check other locations, but maybe members can share their experiences.

 

MY EXPERIENCE:

I got a driver from them 2 years ago and got fit for an aftermarket shaft. I received my quote and paid the full premium for it since I needed a driver ASAP and didn't want to wait for the shaft to come available on BST. What he told me is that I got billed for the full price of the driver as I would've paid anywhere like PGA Superstore plus the aftermarket shaft. Club Champions doesn't have a deal to buy just the driver head from major OEMs so they get a stock shaft that comes with the driver that they just keep. A lot of the time they will sell them to customers who come in with their own club heads. Supposedly a stock shaft like a Tensei Orange retails for a little over $100.

 

I felt cheated out of a shaft ... thus Shaftgate! If you were to buy a driver at say PGA Superstore, you'd get the full driver with stock shaft then you'd pay extra for aftermarket shaft. I could have a backup shaft or could've sold it. Even if I don't get the full retail price, it's still money I could've used.

 

FURTHER INVESTIGATION:

The former fitter said it becomes a larger deal when it comes to irons. Even if you were to get a standard shaft that an OEM offers, they still charge you a full separate set of shafts. I couldn't believe it so I asked a friend of mine who did a whole bag fitting with them to send me his quote and saw that they did indeed charge full retail price for the irons, then another separate fee for ProjectX 6.5s which Mizuno offers as a no up-charge option. They even charged in the quote grips. I guess if they are ordering an entire set of shafts, they need to put grips on them too. They quoted an extra $656 for an 8-piece set of JPX919s which should come with shafts and grips already.

 

 

I've ordered from Mizuno and I was able to give them loft/lie adjustments and they're the rare OEM that also will take in swingweight info and try their best to make it work. When I received then, I got them measured and they were built to spec. Does it really make sense to pay an extra $656 to have Club Champions build it instead of OEM?

 

CONCLUSION:

All in all, I got really heated about the fact that they're getting free shafts from your order and reselling them for pure profit. Maybe this is their business model and how they stay profitable? I don't know, but it's shady to me. Those that better understand the business, please let me know why what Club Champions is doing makes sense. But from a thousand foot view, they charge for fitting, they charge build fees, and I'm sure there is at least a 40% markup from their cost for the clubs ... I don't know why they need to resort to this type of business practice. SHAFTGATE!!!

I looked at irons and the cost was scary. Heads were charged as if I bought the whole club tour velvets 10.00 each not including installation shafts were really high over retail. Cant afford 2200.00 for irons.

[mgoblue83]

17 hours ago, john myrbch said:

Thanks so much for your last 4 posts.

They were well worth reading through the entire thread for.

 

My pleasure!

 

For what it's worth I'd never recommend Club Champion to anyone but it's not because they use Trackman indoors. I'm more concerned about the following:

• Scripted fittings designed for selling 
• Mostly novice fitters who focus too much on "low spin" and "total distance" because it sells when I'm looking for a specific and repeatable ball flight
• Heavy universal adapters that make it impossible to test setups at normal swing weights
• Extremely high cost for everything