golf's three most overrated currently common beliefs ?

[LeftDaddy]

22 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Errant tee balls that don't find hit the fairway often do find hazards, OB, or blocked lines of play. So your teaching pro friend is saying it's o.k to miss the fairway if the ball ends up in a good lie from which to play the next shot. Depending on the layout of the course that perspective/strategy could work o.k.. For sure on any course the middle of the fairway is always a good place to have a ball lay.

BUT, at what expense does it make sense to lay back to ensure middle of the fairway?  70 yards (which is probably around .6 strokes lost give or take)? 40? 100?  Should I tee off with my 7 iron?  Or my 3 iron?  Or 3w?

 

See, this is where the adages don’t add up. They forget that to “ensure” I find the middle of the fairway I have to give up at least 70 yards or so (and that’s a complete fallacy too…that laying back guarantees me a fairway).  If only someone had calculated all the different puts and takes of these decisions for us, so that we would have guidelines to understand the consequences of our choices…

 

Nah, I’ll just listen to what my teaching pro says…he knows this intuitively. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by LeftDaddy

[LeftDaddy]

15 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

Yes. People trying to sell something will claim lots of stuff if it helps to make a sale. Salesmen usually tell people what they want to hear.

So telling people that they need to practice lag putting and putting from 4-7 feet is telling them what they want to hear?  And that they need to get better at hitting greens by sharpening their iron play?  And telling them that they need to work on their swings to reliably add a few yards and avoid hazards (and also help their iron play)?

 

No, sir, telling me that distance doesn’t matter is more akin to telling me what I want to hear. “Hey, my crappy swing is good enough Fred!  Fairway14 and John Mahaffey told me so. All I have to do now is not swing hard and turn 38 putts into 25 putts and I can finally break 80!”

Edited July 8, 2021 by LeftDaddy

[Krt22]

46 minutes ago, LeftDaddy said:

Broadie and his team of researchers did just that before Shot Link became available, and so did Dave Pelz. 
 

And here’s a hint for you guys…distance and proximity to the hole of approach shots etc matters even more for ams because of the significant skill gaps between us and pros in those areas. 
 

And don’t try to tell me what Broadie says or doesn’t say. One of his original research team members was my graduate thesis advisor. I saw presentations on the material before it ever became a book, and I also have a copy of the original research paper that was submitted to the USGA. It is way more complex than what is in the book, but the book distills a lot of the complexity into useful advice. And again, they first had a team of grad students collecting data from AMATEUR and pro golfers to start their analysis. 

Did any of those researchers talk to old guys who can shoot their age with 175 yard drives?

[Fairway14]

10 minutes ago, LeftDaddy said:

 Should I tee off with my 7 iron?  Or my 3 iron?  Or 3w?

 

 

 

Course architects typically have the widest of a course's fairways for the longest par 4 holes. The course's most narrow fairways are usually part of the shortest par 4 and short par 5 holes. Having a goal of hitting 10 fairways per round is not a bad idea. I don't know your skill level but my suggestion is to use the clubs from par 4 and par 5 tee boxes that consistently gets you 10 fairways per round. 

[trilerian]

16 minutes ago, LeftDaddy said:

No, sir, telling me that distance doesn’t matter is more akin to telling me what I want to hear. “Hey, my crappy swing is good enough Fred!  Fairway14 and John Mahaffey told me so. All I have to do now is not swing hard and turn 38 putts into 25 putts and I can finally break 80!”

 

This is hilarious.  One of my golf buddies name is Fred.  Last week I got a round in the 70s and he asked me what I did, I told him I embraced my crappy swing.  But it was 32 putts, not 25.

 

Backstory is I am working on fixing my crappy swing but I am very inconsistent with the results right now and I have my city metro coming up so I decided to shelf the work until it is over.  

[Bad9]

1 hour ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Brroadie and, or, Pelz hired people to be at the munis and private clubs charting-measuring-recording the shots of players shooting 105,  95, 85, 75 etc...? I never heard or read anything about this happening. Is there a story somewhere about these guys being out there following amateurs around the courses ?

You can read all about it his book and I presume he has a website.

[Krt22]

18 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

You can read all about it his book and I presume he has a website.

You and I both know none of the nay-sayers in here are going to read the book, that would completely debunk their opinion-based arguments 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Krt22

[chippa13]

48 minutes ago, PappyVanWinkle53 said:

"Can't think of a single player I've ever seen consistently better with a longer club than a shorter one."

 

...except for Roy McAvoy and his 7-iron.  He never misses with a 7-iron.  It's the only truly safe club in his bag.

If McAvoy could put his 7 iron out to 227 a little off the toe then why was he trying to hit his 3 into that 18th green? It was only 237 to carry the water.. That should have been at most a smooth 5 iron.

[LeftDaddy]

29 minutes ago, trilerian said:

 

This is hilarious.  One of my golf buddies name is Fred.  Last week I got a round in the 70s and he asked me what I did, I told him I embraced my crappy swing.  But it was 32 putts, not 25.

 

Backstory is I am working on fixing my crappy swing but I am very inconsistent with the results right now and I have my city metro coming up so I decided to shelf the work until it is over.  

But did you lay back off the tee all day and swing at 85% of your abilities?  And did you wedge it to death?

[klebs01]

1 hour ago, LeftDaddy said:

BUT, at what expense does it make sense to lay back to ensure middle of the fairway?  70 yards (which is probably around .6 strokes lost give or take)? 40? 100?  Should I tee off with my 7 iron?  Or my 3 iron?  Or 3w?

 

See, this is where the adages don’t add up. They forget that to “ensure” I find the middle of the fairway I have to give up at least 70 yards or so (and that’s a complete fallacy too…that laying back guarantees me a fairway).  If only someone had calculated all the different puts and takes of these decisions for us, so that we would have guidelines to understand the consequences of our choices…

 

Nah, I’ll just listen to what my teaching pro says…he knows this intuitively. 

I have an event Monday. I can’t wait to take fairway14’s advice and hit 7 iron off every tee. That should work great on the 7200 yard course. Can’t wait to play 10 par 4s as three shot holes and all three par 5s as four shotters. This strategy is sure to improve my score. Only going to need 18 putts or less. Seems doable. 

[Krt22]

4 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

I have an event Monday. I can’t wait to take fairway14’s advice and hit 7 iron off every tee. That should work great on the 7200 yard course. Can’t wait to play 10 par 4s as three shot holes and all three par 5s as four shotters. This strategy is sure to improve my score. Only going to need 18 putts or less. Seems doable. 

Quit playing such long courses, what are you trying to prove back there man?

[klebs01]

Just now, Krt22 said:

Quit playing such long courses, what are you trying to prove back there man?

Maybe I should protest the tees the organizers set up and just tee off from 5900 yards. 

[LeftDaddy]

10 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

I have an event Monday. I can’t wait to take fairway14’s advice and hit 7 iron off every tee. That should work great on the 7200 yard course. Can’t wait to play 10 par 4s as three shot holes and all three par 5s as four shotters. This strategy is sure to improve my score. Only going to need 18 putts or less. Seems doable. 

I was just thinking the same thing. Club championship is this weekend. 7 iron off the first tee baby!

 

Want to hear another funny story?  I actually did this experiment for myself once. I played 4 holes with the notion that I was going to take it extremely safely and no matter what, not make anything worse than bogey. I intended to play 18 holes this way but I’ll get to why I didn’t in a sec…

 

Anyway, I hit a 7 iron off the first tee because it can be a scary tee shot. I MISSED the fairway lol, but I was in the right rough. But then I was stuck with a tweener layup shot that I proceeded to run out too far. Approach shot wasn’t great because of a bad lie. A few shots later…double. You can guess where this is going. I gave up on it after 4 holes because I was like “This is stupid…I still make doubles, I hit poorer shots because I’m laying back all the time, and I’m basically guaranteeing a bogey on the holes I play reasonably well, and worse on the ones I don’t”. 
 

I knew this intuitively anyway, but I was practicing for an elimination style event at our club and I ultimately concluded that even in that format, playing safe and laying back was sub-optimal. And before the naysayers jump on this point, I don’t mean that I instead concluded that taking tons of unnecessary risk was the way to go. Play aggressively to conservative spots is Goldilocks for me…

Edited July 8, 2021 by LeftDaddy

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

Maybe I should protest the tees the organizers set up and just tee off from 5900 yards. 

Next event I'm going to say I identify as a 77 year old and can only drive the ball 190, I figure I'll only need 6i and down from that distance. 14/14 Fairways here I come

[trilerian]

3 hours ago, LeftDaddy said:

But did you lay back off the tee all day and swing at 85% of your abilities?  And did you wedge it to death?

Oh no, I swung all out, lol.  Partial and less effort swings have their place, especially with the scoring irons, but I can’t hit an 80% driver to save my tush. Slice city every time I try.

[8thehardway]

As it relates to scoring, distance is necessary while accuracy is contributory. 

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Remember that 90% of golfers are hackers, meaning that 90% of players average shooting 90 or worse. So, it is fitting that most common beliefs about golf come from players who shoot 90 and, or, don't have  true understanding of the facets of the game. Companies and people selling goods and services within the golf industry target the hacker market. Rhetoric such as "more distance" , "getting fit for clubs really makes a difference" ", or "bigger is better" is what the hackers want to hear, so that is the message that is sold to them , and same naturally becomes an overrated currently common belief.

 

Just as you did to the guy following this post of yours, you quote MY post and then proceed to pontificate about whatever you feel like when it has nothing to do with my post you quoted.

 

And now you're talking about companies wanting to sell equipment. Good grief.

 

You just like to hear yourself "talk".  🤦‍♀️

 

 

[Nard_S]

[StudentGolfer4]

Food for thought. 10-14 fairways is 71%
 

Patrick Reed 64%

Jon Rahm 63%

Justin Rose 60%

DJ 59%

Brooks 56%
Adam Scott 54%

Spieth 54%
Phil 53%

1-5 for driving accuracy. 
Brendon Todd 75%

Ryan Amour 73%
Brian Steward 73%

Chez Reavie 72%

Ryan Moore 71%

 

11. Morikawa 70% (highest major winner)
15. Webb Simpson

38. Keegan Bradley

Hopefully I didn’t overlook any winners but I believe those three are your most accurate drivers with a major championship. 
 

 

I’ll let you decide which group you would rather be associated with.

 

I chuckle at the idea of setting a goal of hitting 10-14 fairways. That would be better than all but 5 current pga players. 

[LeftDaddy]

29 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Food for thought. 10-14 fairways is 71%
 

Patrick Reed 64%

Jon Rahm 63%

Justin Rose 60%

DJ 59%

Brooks 56%
Adam Scott 54%

Spieth 54%
Phil 53%

1-5 for driving accuracy. 
Brendon Todd 75%

Ryan Amour 73%
Brian Steward 73%

Chez Reavie 72%

Ryan Moore 71%

 

11. Morikawa 70% (highest major winner)
15. Webb Simpson

38. Keegan Bradley

Hopefully I didn’t overlook any winners but I believe those three are your most accurate drivers with a major championship. 
 

 

I’ll let you decide which group you would rather be associated with.

 

I chuckle at the idea of setting a goal of hitting 10-14 fairways. That would be better than all but 5 current pga players. 

Nah dude, but you don’t understand. Those are tour stats. They have absolutely zero relevance to amateurs. 🙃

 

It is far more important for an amateur to hit the middle of the fairway and then rely on our elite short games to make up and downs all day. 

[jholz]

OMG this argument is so stupid.

 

If you want to play high level competitive golf... then yes, you need to hit the ball a long way off the tee. All competitive golf privileges distance these days. Whether you like it or not, that's the way it is. If you only hit it 230, you have no chance whatsoever. Simple fact.

 

But... if your goal is to shoot good scores from tees appropriate for your age, skill level, or enjoyment, then no, distance doesn't matter as much.

 

Ultimately, we are all just trying to play our best. Folks have differing senses of what "their best" might be and what they want to achieve. Not all of us have the skill or desire to be tour players. We just want to shoot a good score for our skill level.

 

In the end, there's a lot of different ways to get around a golf course. Find the one that works best for you and go out and have a good time. Jeesh.

 

Golf has room for everyone.

[RichieHunt]

On 7/1/2021 at 1:33 PM, Fairway14 said:

1) distance is highly significant to scoring

2) getting fit for clubs is essential

3) large club heads are more forgiving than small club heads

 

The above are three common perceptions I often hear and, or, read, but find to be misleading and, or, false.

For example, if a player can consistently strike 235 yard straight tee shots he is long enough to shoot under par golf on a 6,800 yard championship course. I understand it is trendy to think that having a 9-iron shot from the rough is better than a 6-iron shot from the middle of the fairway , but on the golf courses I rarely see amateurs playing from the rough or trees all day shoot low scores. I see lots of guys playing from the middle of the fairway shoot low scores.

 

 

There's a strong correlation between distance and scoring.  It has been proven time and time, again.  Whether it's on the PGA Tour or with amateur golfers.  For instance, about 8 years ago me and some friends got together and took verified USGA handicaps and measured nearly 140 golfers on Trackman and found r=0.9 between club head speed and USGA handicap.  The standard deviation was 4.5 mph.

 

It's a correlation, so it's not a 1:1 relationship.  But the odds are that the faster you swing the club the more likely your handicap is lower than another golfer that swings slower.

Now, that doesn't mean it always happens that way...but the odds are in the favor of the longer hitter.  For instance, I have a friend who is about a 15 handicap and his club speed is at 120 mph.  So it's certainly possible to swing that fast and have that high of a handicap.  He just represents a very small percentage of either population (the population of golfers that swing at 120 mph or the population of golfers with a 15 handicap).  And the main reasons why he's representative of those small populations is that he's a 6'6" tall, former D-1 basketball player that plays a lot of softball and plays golf about 3-4x per month and rarely practices.

 

The more overrated concept is the idea of impeccable consistency.  Which would be required to shoot par hitting it only 235 yards off the tee on a 6,800 yard course at say 300 feet above sea level that is fairly flat.  That and the great putting that would be required.  

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[Bad9]

9 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

 

 

The more overrated concept is the idea of impeccable consistency.  Which would be required to shoot par hitting it only 235 yards off the tee on a 6,800 yard course at say 300 feet above sea level that is fairly flat.  That and the great putting that would be required.  

 

 

Amen to this. I think this is a smaller subset of golfers than the 120mph/15hc one is. For someone driving it 235, 6800yds is a long, long course. You're not getting to any par 5's in two, your have 4-5 par 4's to which you are hitting fairway wood or hybrid and doing the same to one or two of the par 3's. Its not impossible but an amateur shooting par, especially regularly,  under those circumstances is going to be rare.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Bad9

[RichieHunt]

12 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

 

Amen to this. I think this is a smaller subset of golfers than the 120mph/15hc one is. For someone driving it 235, 6800yds is a long, long course. You're not getting to any par 5's in two, your have 4-5 par 4's to which you are hitting fairway wood or hybrid and doing the same to one or two of the par 3's. Its not impossible but an amateur shooting par, especially regularly,  under those circumstances is going to be rare.

 

The irony of this is that the 235 yard golfer who can shoot par on a 6,800 yard course is usually a very accomplished player that used to hit it long, but is now in the 60's or 70's and cannot hit it nearly as long as they used to, but is still a very good player.

 

 

 

 

RH

[BeaverPRO]

1) Drive for show; Putt for dough - you have to be able to get to the green in order to putt

 

2) Practice makes prefect - Practice does nothing more than provide you an avenue to get better, you get out of it what you put in. if you practice a bad swing you will have a bad swing

 

3) Torrey Pines South course is a good course - It's long and has about 4 holes that look over the cliff. other than that it's a fairly bland round of golf.

Edited July 9, 2021 by BeaverPRO

[Krt22]

52 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

 

There's a strong correlation between distance and scoring.  It has been proven time and time, again.  Whether it's on the PGA Tour or with amateur golfers.  For instance, about 8 years ago me and some friends got together and took verified USGA handicaps and measured nearly 140 golfers on Trackman and found r=0.9 between club head speed and USGA handicap.  The standard deviation was 4.5 mph.

 

It's a correlation, so it's not a 1:1 relationship.  But the odds are that the faster you swing the club the more likely your handicap is lower than another golfer that swings slower.

Now, that doesn't mean it always happens that way...but the odds are in the favor of the longer hitter.  For instance, I have a friend who is about a 15 handicap and his club speed is at 120 mph.  So it's certainly possible to swing that fast and have that high of a handicap.  He just represents a very small percentage of either population (the population of golfers that swing at 120 mph or the population of golfers with a 15 handicap).  And the main reasons why he's representative of those small populations is that he's a 6'6" tall, former D-1 basketball player that plays a lot of softball and plays golf about 3-4x per month and rarely practices.

 

The more overrated concept is the idea of impeccable consistency.  Which would be required to shoot par hitting it only 235 yards off the tee on a 6,800 yard course at say 300 feet above sea level that is fairly flat.  That and the great putting that would be required.  

 

 

 

 

 

RH

You see all of this is lost on those who don't understand statistics or simply deny the validity of conclusions drawn from signicantly large data sets. For whatever reason many golfers fall into the subset of folks who legitimately believe they are the exception to rule, and thus ignore the statistics and bury their in the sand. You know, since the statistics don't capture "nuances" and such. They use the one short knocker who can score and the one wild long guy who can't as the basis of their entire argument, and then simply put the blinders on when you present then with data and facts.

 

The same goes with instruction in general ,many golfers get into poor positions and convince themselves it can work because ONE guy on tour does it, completely ignoring the fact that 100+ other guys on tour do not. As if their skill and talent exceeds that of the majority of tour pros

 

Perhaps we should add "you can make any swing work" to the list of overrated common beliefs in golf.

[dugue4]

On 7/7/2021 at 10:08 AM, BHI 99 said:

Or 

 

“90% of statistics don’t apply to 90% of golfers” 

87.2% of all statistics are

 made up on the spot.

[NoTalentLefty]

1) Hotdogs shouldn’t be eaten at the turn.

2) Jack Nicklaus is underrated as a course designer.

3) You need to have a noticeable weight shift to golf correctly.

 

explanation:

1) Hotdogs are energy boosters and if you’re having a bad round at least you got that to look forward to at the turn.

2) Because  so many of you think he’s overrated.

3)  A planned Weight shift isn’t necessary if you put most of your weight on the front and can shallow the club before impact.  One will happen after the club hits the ball by inertia . See Jim Venetos. 
 

 

[klebs01]

2 hours ago, jholz said:

But... if your goal is to shoot good scores from tees appropriate for your age, skill level, or enjoyment, then no, distance doesn't matter as much.

This doesn’t mean distance isn’t important, it just means you aren’t willing to work on distance and will just change the course. It’s like saying you don’t want to work on vertical leap for basketball and just get the YMCA to lower the rim to 6ft. Sure. You can dunk now, but that doesn’t mean jumping isn’t important to be good at the sport. 

[jholz]

1 minute ago, klebs01 said:

This doesn’t mean distance isn’t important, it just means you aren’t willing to work on distance and will just change the course. It’s like saying you don’t want to work on vertical leap for basketball and just get the YMCA to lower the rim to 6ft. Sure. You can dunk now, but that doesn’t mean jumping isn’t important to be good at the sport. 

 

I think you may have missed my point. Not every golfer is capable of - or even necessarily wants - to hit the ball 280. Yet, they can still go out, shoot a decent score, and have a good time. That's my point.

 

No one is changing the rules of golf to accommodate this reality. Those rules are already there and enable players to do what they want.