Smallest (most compact) AND most forgiving Iron head?

[wely324]

An interesting topic as I have been thinking of swapping out my long irons for something more forgiving. I currently have Miura CB 1008 in irons 3-5 combined with mb101 6-pw, and they are awesome but not noticeably more forgiving than the blades. 

 

So I came across ZX7 4 and 5 iron heads that I picked up and I put in identical shafts as my miura cb's and bent them to the same loft. The ZX7 is a slightly longer blade length by a few mm at most. Topline is visibly thicker, but could be the finish and more squared edges that play a role in that. Without getting to technical I'd say they are both compact players irons, and the ZX7 was more forgiving. Misses out on the toe seemed to be less punishing but thin hits were still very thin to me. I really need more time to truly see the difference in forgiveness between the two models, but what I'm trying to get at is their are options out their for a compact head with some new design features, like tungsten, to help improve forgiveness/MOI.

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

11 minutes ago, DFS PFD said:

The player doesn't matter, that's irrelevant to the question. The question should be read what is the most forgiving small profile clubhead? As forgiveness and size used to be directly correlated, that is not always the case now. T100 is very compact, and very forgiving. Not just related to it's size, but more giving as @Valtiel mentioned relative to some GI or SGI club heads based on MOI measurements. He didn't ask to be educated on the terminology, he asked a question with a simple answer in mind. The T100 is very small AND forgiving clubhead. You can get out in the weeds as much as you'd like with your semantics and anecdotes, but they are irrelevant to the question at hand. 

I still disagree.  A person asked, presumably for his use.  We're NOT a bunch of engineers setting around playing with calculators and old slide rulers analyzing data.  We're people that play golf with varying degrees of golf skill and equipment knowledge and some of us are trying to be helpful.

 

The OP asked a broad question leaving his skill out of the discussion, so I gave a broad answer.   Small and forgiving, does NOT go hand-in-hand.  That's not to say a club head doesn't fit that criteria.  It's to say, generally, small and forgiving do not go hand-in-hand.  Like everything else, we can disagree.

[JoeFrigo]

There are more compact heads but I played and loved the New Level 623's. For a blade they have a little more offset than others, a wider sold than most blades, and the extra muscle right behind the sweet spot made it pretty darn forgiving IMO

[TiScape]

On 8/11/2021 at 9:18 AM, rooski said:

That's a bit like asking what the fastest AND the slowest car is, those two are inversely proportional so its gonna be a tradeoff for the most part

A bit like that perhaps. More like fastest car with the smallest engine. Can’t be both fastest and slowest. Can be small, but forgiving relative to the size. But I get what what you were thinking. Clearly the OP doesn’t like the look of a large head, but still desires as much forgiveness as possible. 
 

* I find my Mizuno 919 Forged forgiving and they are fairly compact. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by TiScape

[DFS PFD]

1 minute ago, Pepperturbo said:

I still disagree.  A person asked, presumably for his use.  We're NOT a bunch of engineers setting around playing with calculators and old slide rulers analyzing data.  We're people that play golf with varying degrees of golf skill and equipment knowledge and some of us are trying to be helpful.

 

The OP asked a broad question leaving his skill out of the discussion, so I gave a broad answer.   Small and forgiving, does NOT go hand-in-hand.  That's not to say a club head doesn't fit that criteria.  It's to say, generally, small and forgiving do not go hand-in-hand.  Like everything else, we can disagree.

Almost everyone familiar with MOI in golf would agree there's a fairly direct correlation between higher MOI and forgiveness (albeit there's nuances), you may be the exception by choice.

T100 MOI (players size) 14.7982 

Callaway Apex21 (game improvement) 12.1039

Taylormade 790 (game improvement) 11.5203

 

So the numbers suggest that the smallest club out of those (T100) is also the most forgiving. Small and forgiving is no longer mutually exclusive, conversely, is it not synonymous either. You may have to look for yourself since you don't like my reasoning, no matter how sound it may be in principle. 

[Fairway14]

For iron design I believe a small head with a deep cavity back, such as the iconic Tommy Armour  845 irons from 25 years ago, are more forgiving than the medium and oversize heads sold today.

[Red4282]

43 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

I still disagree.  A person asked, presumably for his use.  We're NOT a bunch of engineers setting around playing with calculators and old slide rulers analyzing data.  We're people that play golf with varying degrees of golf skill and equipment knowledge and some of us are trying to be helpful.

 

The OP asked a broad question leaving his skill out of the discussion, so I gave a broad answer.   Small and forgiving, does NOT go hand-in-hand.  That's not to say a club head doesn't fit that criteria.  It's to say, generally, small and forgiving do not go hand-in-hand.  Like everything else, we can disagree.

Unless you are hitting the hosel or something then yes size is a factor. If you can hit it anywhere in the grooved area 99% of the time then no it really doesnt.  It doesnt matter what the golfer knows or sees about forgiveness because perception isnt reality, especially with golf clubs. Its been said many many times that a giant high moi or GI club MASKS mishits, but in reality its actually worse off. Perceptions can trick our brains for sure. 

[Red4282]

39 minutes ago, DFS PFD said:

Almost everyone familiar with MOI in golf would agree there's a fairly direct correlation between higher MOI and forgiveness (albeit there's nuances), you may be the exception by choice.

T100 MOI (players size) 14.7982 

Callaway Apex21 (game improvement) 12.1039

Taylormade 790 (game improvement) 11.5203

 

So the numbers suggest that the smallest club out of those (T100) is also the most forgiving. Small and forgiving is no longer mutually exclusive, conversely, is it not synonymous either. You may have to look for yourself since you don't like my reasoning, no matter how sound it may be in principle. 

With  those comparisons, t100 is not a smaller blade than the other two, its pretty close to the same. Regarding MOI, that level of difference in an iron head is very small and  borderline insignificant.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Red4282

[North Butte]

45 minutes ago, DFS PFD said:

Almost everyone familiar with MOI in golf would agree there's a fairly direct correlation between higher MOI and forgiveness (albeit there's nuances), you may be the exception by choice.

T100 MOI (players size) 14.7982 

Callaway Apex21 (game improvement) 12.1039

Taylormade 790 (game improvement) 11.5203

 

So the numbers suggest that the smallest club out of those (T100) is also the most forgiving. Small and forgiving is no longer mutually exclusive, conversely, is it not synonymous either. You may have to look for yourself since you don't like my reasoning, no matter how sound it may be in principle. 

MOI can be addressed using weights so irons like the T100 put relatively large amounts of tungsten in there to gain pretty impressive MOI. But the Apex 21 and P790 are nowhere near the amounts of MOI in truly forgiving irons which can have upwards of 16 on the MOI scale. 

 

And there's plenty of vertical and horizontal COG contribution to forgiveness as well as sole width and shaping. So yeah, the T100 is about as much MOI as you can pack into a small headed, thin soled, low offset iron with the COG relatively close to the face. 

 

But it you're willing to go up in size there's a little more MOI plus more of all the other contributors to forgiveness available. 

 

Forgiving for a small iron is still not the same as forgiving, full stop.

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

 

Generally speaking,  smallest and forgiving do NOT go hand-in-hand, least from my years of experience.

 

Generally speaking throughout golf history, yes. But that has changed drastically in the last 7-ish years, and i'd be willing to bet that most of your experience is being pulled from earlier/older clubs by that measure. For lack of a more respectful way of putting it, and I mean this partially tongue in cheek, it is a bit of an "update your ideas old man" kind of situation I think 😅. You can hand wave away data points as being "intellectual" as much as you want, but that is an outdated way of thinking. Golf clubs aren't magic, and we can measure and quantify a lot more now with an understanding of what those measurements mean. MOI will directly correlate to how mishits perform. The T100, as an example, has a similar MOI to the T300 as well as the various Oversize (OS) iron models from the early 2000s. Similar deal with PING and the iBlade/i210 having a similar MOI to the otherwise massive cavity backs of 2013 and earlier. 

Of course golf is heavily psychological, and if you put a T100 in someone's hands and they get freaked out by the compact size thinking that it is going to be unforgiving and subsequently make poor swings then it is a bad fit for them, regardless of what it is on paper. This is not a measure of the club though, and i'd argue re: "...is NOT about how a person intellectually measures forgiveness" that this is actually exactly what is happening. Most golfers (and when I say most I don't mean the "GolfWRX" most) will decide how forgiving they think an iron is by looking at it, and throughout most of golf history that would be an accurate generalization. 

After writing this I actually went looking for more data to support these concepts and found something really interesting. Tungsten has been the main driving force behind increasing clubhead MOI since it allows the designers/engineers to manipulate weight distribution in ways that would otherwise require traditionally bulky "game improvement" designs. The market price of Tungsten year over year seems to have correlated with the golf industry's utilization of it, with spikes in the early 2000's and 2010's, but a sharp and consistent decrease since 2013, which coincidentally correlates with the design trends I mentioned of the last 7+ years. It's honestly pretty cool, at least in my opinion, and it means more cool toys for us. 👍

[Fairway14]

53 minutes ago, DFS PFD said:

Almost everyone familiar with MOI in golf would agree there's a fairly direct correlation between higher MOI and forgiveness

 

The problem is that golf industry people define forgiveness as improved results from mishit shots. This definition is too limiting because it does not factor in that some large head and, or, high MOI designs may actually promote mishit shots.

[DFS PFD]

It's a shame anyone bothered quantifying forgiveness in association with MOI, if only they knew size is what really matters. (That's what she said) 

 

I do understand the sentiment that larger = more forgiving, OP asked for the smallest and most forgiving, NOT just the most forgiving. All I've been trying to do is quantify this forgiveness in the T100 relative to it's size and other similar sized clubs only. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by DFS PFD

[DFS PFD]

46 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

With  those comparisons, t100 is not a smaller blade than the other two, its pretty close to the same. Regarding MOI, that level of difference in an iron head is very small and  borderline insignificant.

Actually T100 is smaller if you bother to look them up on the respective manufacturer's websites (not much but from what I saw it is) . Pretty close is not the same. And if the MOI is insignificant to you, we have nothing to discuss, as that's been the only quantifiable way to measure forgiveness like OP was looking for. 

[Red4282]

23 minutes ago, DFS PFD said:

Actually T100 is smaller if you bother to look them up on the respective manufacturer's websites (not much but from what I saw it is) . Pretty close is not the same. And if the MOI is insignificant to you, we have nothing to discuss, as that's been the only quantifiable way to measure forgiveness like OP was looking for. 

I have yet to see any blade length specs for t100, if you have those please share. There are many articles stating progressive blade lengths.

 

So first, moi in 8 iron (35*)up is a complete non factor, many sources on that, notably wishon. Second, regarding moi and its quantifiable way to measure… exactly what are you measuring? Moi is just a resistance to twisting. So what does that mean for a 12.5 moi vs a 14.7 moi? Does that mean .2 mph more ball speed or 2 mph ball speed? .5 yards more offline or 5 yards? Its very muddy waters, and from just about every test i see, when it comes to overall dispersion, the higher moi actually does WORSE. Why? Not sure, i really do think it has to do with masking mishits. If you dont know you are mishitting it, whats to stop you from doing it? (Just my theory).
 

The severity of mishit also comes in to play. Mishit by 1/2” out toeside isnt going to see much difference by these two irons. Now 1 1/2” and outside the grooves, you might see some tangible benefit. 
 

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Red4282

[Pepperturbo]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

Generally speaking throughout golf history, yes. But that has changed drastically in the last 7-ish years, and i'd be willing to bet that most of your experience is being pulled from earlier/older clubs by that measure. For lack of a more respectful way of putting it, and I mean this partially tongue in cheek, it is a bit of an "update your ideas old man" kind of situation I think 😅. You can hand wave away data points as being "intellectual" as much as you want, but that is an outdated way of thinking. Golf clubs aren't magic, and we can measure and quantify a lot more now with an understanding of what those measurements mean. MOI will directly correlate to how mishits perform. The T100, as an example, has a similar MOI to the T300 as well as the various Oversize (OS) iron models from the early 2000s. Similar deal with PING and the iBlade/i210 having a similar MOI to the otherwise massive cavity backs of 2013 and earlier. 

Of course golf is heavily psychological, and if you put a T100 in someone's hands and they get freaked out by the compact size thinking that it is going to be unforgiving and subsequently make poor swings then it is a bad fit for them, regardless of what it is on paper. This is not a measure of the club though, and i'd argue re: "...is NOT about how a person intellectually measures forgiveness" that this is actually exactly what is happening. Most golfers (and when I say most I don't mean the "GolfWRX" most) will decide how forgiving they think an iron is by looking at it, and throughout most of golf history that would be an accurate generalization. 

After writing this I actually went looking for more data to support these concepts and found something really interesting. Tungsten has been the main driving force behind increasing clubhead MOI since it allows the designers/engineers to manipulate weight distribution in ways that would otherwise require traditionally bulky "game improvement" designs. The market price of Tungsten year over year seems to have correlated with the golf industry's utilization of it, with spikes in the early 2000's and 2010's, but a sharp and consistent decrease since 2013, which coincidentally correlates with the design trends I mentioned of the last 7+ years. It's honestly pretty cool, at least in my opinion, and it means more cool toys for us. 👍

My tech knowledge is NOT out of date, nor is my perception of what constitutes forgiveness.  But, given your perception of a difference of opinion, I will leave this here.

[DFS PFD]

6 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

I have yet to see any blade length specs for t100, if you have those please share. There are many articles stating progressive blade lengths.

 

So first, moi in 8 iron (35*)up is a complete non factor, many sources on that, notably wishon. Second, regarding moi and its quantifiable way to measure… exactly what are you measuring? Moi is just a resistance to twisting. So what does that mean for a 12.5 moi vs a 14.7 moi? Does that mean .2 mph more ball speed or 2 mph ball speed? .5 yards more offline or 5 yards? Its very muddy waters, and from just about every test i see, when it comes to overall dispersion, the higher moi actually does WORSE. Why? Not sure, i really do think it has to do with masking mishits. If you dont know you are mishitting it, whats to stop you from doing it? (Just my theory).
 

The severity of mishit also comes i to play. Mishit by 1/2” out toeside isnt going to see much difference by these two irons. Now 1 1/2” and outside the grooves, you might see some tangible benefit. 
 

 

I'll link it later, sorry for not doing so already. I'll let you google how MOI is measured since I don't think I need to reinvent the wheel when there's so much documentation on that process. I understand what you are saying I really do. So please meet me in the middle and understand what I am trying to convey, we are ONLY using MOI to quantify forgiveness so we can compare clubs on a single metric. Simply saying "oh that felt toey!" Or that shot went one yard shorter isn't a reliable or repeatable way of measuring the forgiveness of a club. I freely will admit you may not see a playable difference in many of those clubs, maybe even a large group like 70% of irons on the market if we remove SGI and blades, and many could be played borderline interchangeably if turf interaction and VCOG match the player testing. All I am trying to say is you need something measurable, consistent, and repeatable to compare dissimilar irons, a standard if you will. That's what MOI is to me, it is not the end all be all, but it's a great starting point. 

[North Butte]

53 minutes ago, DFS PFD said:

It's a shame anyone bothered quantifying forgiveness in association with MOI, if only they knew size is what really matters. (That's what she said) 

 

I do understand the sentiment that larger = more forgiving, OP asked for the smallest and most forgiving, NOT just the most forgiving. All I've been trying to do is quantify this forgiveness in the T100 relative to it's size and other similar sized clubs only. 

Larger is not more forgiving. It's that larger means less constraints on how forgiving the club can be made. 

 

The use of advance CAD systems and great gobs of tungsten weighting has made small-headed, thin soled, low-offset irons much more forgiving than they were a decade or two ago.  But at the same time, those techniques have also gradually increased the forgiveness achievable in a large headed, wide-soled, high-offset iron. 

 

So yes, a T100 is amazingly forgiving compared to a similarly sized iron from 15 years ago. But it's nowhere near as forgiving as a larger iron from 2021. 

[DFS PFD]

3 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Larger is not more forgiving. It's that larger means less constraints on how forgiving the club can be made. 

 

The use of advance CAD systems and great gobs of tungsten weighting has made small-headed, thin soled, low-offset irons much more forgiving than they were a decade or two ago.  But at the same time, those techniques have also gradually increased the forgiveness achievable in a large headed, wide-soled, high-offset iron. 

 

So yes, a T100 is amazingly forgiving compared to a similarly sized iron from 15 years ago. But it's nowhere near as forgiving as a larger iron from 2021. 

Is the Callaway Apex (NOT PRO) larger? (Yes) Look at the comparative MOI then, T100 has higher MOI than it an the 2020 P790, as I stated above. Referenced from Maltby's website for all data. 

 

What that "forgiveness" looks like on the course, I do not know. But on paper, the T100 should be every bit as playable, and in more compact fashion. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by DFS PFD

[pingplayer]

Ping S55's..........

 

 

[North Butte]

17 minutes ago, DFS PFD said:

Is the Callaway Apex (NOT PRO) larger? (Yes) Look at the comparative MOI then, T100 has higher MOI than it an the 2020 P790, as I stated above. Referenced from Maltby's website for all data. 

 

What that "forgiveness" looks like on the course, I do not know. But on paper, the T100 should be every bit as playable, and in more compact fashion. 

From all the reviews I've seen the Apex 21 is not a particularly forgiving or high-handicapper-friendly iron. Just being larger per se doesn't automatically give it amazing forgiveness. 

 

Nobody is saying every iron bigger than a T100 is more forgiving than a T100 (I don't think I've seen anyone say that). But there are many larger irons that are more forgiving than T100. Some examples are Apex DCB, Big Bertha 21, Ping G425 and so forth.

 

To my knowledge T100 has as much forgiveness (i.e. MOI) as anyone has managed to pack into that size of clubhead. That's admirable. But it is still the "most forgiving small headed iron" and not the "most forgiving iron". The most forgiving large headed iron is way easier for a hacker to scrape around and shoot a score with.

[Valtiel]

15 minutes ago, North Butte said:

From all the reviews I've seen the Apex 21 is not a particularly forgiving or high-handicapper-friendly iron. Just being larger per se doesn't automatically give it amazing forgiveness. 

 

Nobody is saying every iron bigger than a T100 is more forgiving than a T100 (I don't think I've seen anyone say that). But there are many larger irons that are more forgiving than T100. Some examples are Apex DCB, Big Bertha 21, Ping G425 and so forth.

 

To my knowledge T100 has as much forgiveness (i.e. MOI) as anyone has managed to pack into that size of clubhead. That's admirable. But it is still the "most forgiving small headed iron" and not the "most forgiving iron". The most forgiving large headed iron is way easier for a hacker to scrape around and shoot a score with.

There is definitely some truth to where companies have pushed the larger irons, especially the PINGs that you mentioned, but IMO those are almost as much an exception as something like the T100. Neither Taylormade nor Callaway have an iron anywhere in their lineup with an MOI as high as the T100/718 AP2, large or small (the only exception if the giant Razr XF from 2012, and only barely). 

I wonder if this is where some of the worse performance in "higher MOI" clubs that @Red4282 alluded to has come from. Many SGI irons have pretty middling MOI which won't give them nearly as much off center performance as you might expect, which I think they attempt to mitigate with hotter faces instead. 

[North Butte]

3 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

There is definitely some truth to where companies have pushed the larger irons, especially the PINGs that you mentioned, but IMO those are almost as much an exception as something like the T100. Neither Taylormade nor Callaway have an iron anywhere in their lineup with an MOI as high as the T100/718 AP2, large or small (the only exception if the giant Razr XF from 2012, and only barely). 

I wonder if this is where some of the worse performance in "higher MOI" clubs that @Red4282 alluded to has come from. Many SGI irons have pretty middling MOI which won't give them nearly as much off center performance as you might expect, which I think they attempt to mitigate with hotter faces instead. 

If MOI were the most important thing, you could probably build an iron almost entirely out of tungsten and get the MOI-to-size ratio off the charts. 

 

I really don't think the target market of something like a T100 has much demand for 16+ levels of MOI, beyond what the latest T100 offers. 

But how much ever you can push MOI in a small "Tour" iron, the other types of forgiveness are hard to reconcile between elite golfers and hackers. No sole that Jordan Spieth is willing to play is going to work well for the steep/flippy/off-balance lunge that passes for a swing for some 20-handicappers. And that reassuringly large face that gives confidence to a hack ain't goona fly with a plus-handicap golfer. 

 

So Titleist did the logical thing. All the costs them is money to use Tungsten to boost the MOI to near-SGI levels in the T100. And there's no downside. So that's what they did. It's very impressive.

 

But as a more general notion, the full package of forgiveness isn't something you do with technology. It necessarily changes the way the iron looks and plays for a skilled golfer. 

[Valtiel]

3 minutes ago, North Butte said:

If MOI were the most important thing, you could probably build an iron almost entirely out of tungsten and get the MOI-to-size ratio off the charts. 

 

I really don't think the target market of something like a T100 has much demand for 16+ levels of MOI, beyond what the latest T100 offers. 

But how much ever you can push MOI in a small "Tour" iron, the other types of forgiveness are hard to reconcile between elite golfers and hackers. No sole that Jordan Spieth is willing to play is going to work well for the steep/flippy/off-balance lunge that passes for a swing for some 20-handicappers. And that reassuringly large face that gives confidence to a hack ain't goona fly with a plus-handicap golfer. 

 

So Titleist did the logical thing. All the costs them is money to use Tungsten to boost the MOI to near-SGI levels in the T100. And there's no downside. So that's what they did. It's very impressive.

 

But as a more general notion, the full package of forgiveness isn't something you do with technology. It necessarily changes the way the iron looks and plays for a skilled golfer. 

Good points, can't disagree with anything there. 👍

[toddba11]

Wilson FG62s………

[craz-e]

Wilson Staff CB

Titleist t100s

Callaway TCB 

[gentles]

2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

The problem is that golf industry people define forgiveness as improved results from mishit shots. This definition is too limiting because it does not factor in that some large head and, or, high MOI designs may actually promote mishit shots.

 

Wonder if the perfect combo is then a small head packed with high MOI?...if I understand you right you're suggesting that a smaller head might help a player "focus" more, meaning you want to trick the player into thinking theyre hitting something unforgiving, but provide as much help as possible with internal weighting etc

[North Butte]

Just now, gentles said:

 

Wonder if the perfect combo is then a small head packed with high MOI?...if I understand you right you're suggesting that a smaller head might help a player "focus" more, meaning you want to trick the player into thinking theyre hitting something unforgiving, but provide as much help as possible with internal weighting etc

I'm picturing Neo from The Matrix staring at a T100 4-iron and saying, "There is no spoon". Real Jedi-level mind tricks, that. 

[Fairway14]

33 minutes ago, gentles said:

.if I understand you right you're suggesting that a smaller head might help a player "focus" more

My point has nothing to do with "focus". Some players may find a smaller head size, be it driver, iron, or putter, is easier to swing and square at impact than a larger size head.

 

[Fairway14]

1 hour ago, pingplayer said:

Ping S55's..........

 

 

 

Not just the S55 model, but S59, 58, 57, and 56 were all relatively small sized heads combined with perimeter weighting. Ping should have continued that series.

[gentles]

2 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

My point has nothing to do with "focus". Some players may find a smaller head size, be it driver, iron, or putter, is easier to swing and square at impact than a larger size head.

 

 

why?