Is bagging rampant?

[BeerPerHole]

I'm starting to wonder about this. I'm fairly new to competitions, just the last few years. I have noticed in previous club competitions guys shooting well under their handicaps (10 strokes or more)...and, often it's the same few guys. So, I thought, "OK, maybe a few baggers" and just moved on. Today my son and I played in a jr/sr. I'm an 11 index, he's right around me but I think a little lower. It was a modified scotch (pick one drive, then alternate shot). We played very well for us and came in 1 over. But, we didn't even place. 1st, 2nd and 3rd place all shot higher gross than us. The Sr of the other team paired with us is a guy I know very well. We beat them by 4 strokes but half way through the round I asked his index. "25"...I just stared at him...He's very close to me in skill. They took 2nd. I'm not ticked, but you know that feeling when who wonder if you were just duped? That's what it feels like. I'd like to play these other teams straight up for lunch or $. Those would be very good matches. I'm curious if others here with indexes like mine, almost singles, find that this is a range where you're in a pickle in competitions. Or, is the world just rife with baggers? I can't help but chuckle about this...

[Fairway14]

30 minutes ago, BeerPerHole said:

 I'm curious if others here with indexes like mine, almost singles, find that this is a range where you're in a pickle in competitions. Or, is the world just rife with baggers? I can't help but chuckle about this...

 

I believe bragging/posing handicaps are more common than bagger/betting handicaps. The reason for this is that people object to baggers taking their money and, or, winning net events, so the bagger usually cannot get away with same for a prolonged period of time. In contrast, bragging handicaps don't harm anyone except the poseur.

[tatertot]

25 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I believe bragging/posing handicaps are more common than bagger/betting handicaps. The reason for this is that people object to baggers taking their money and, or, winning net events, so the bagger usually cannot get away with same for a prolonged period of time. In contrast, bragging handicaps don't harm anyone except the poseur.

Do you just automatically say the opposite of what is common sense/true?

[tatertot]

Bagging seems bad, because they are the players who win the majority of events. The system is broken and rewards dishonesty. I stopped playing handicap events years ago.

[MattyO1984]

It’s something which seems to have become much more common here in Scotland since the new WHS came into being. Single figure players and low single figure players in particular actively not playing in competitions that they once would because there is literally no point in teeing up if you want to go out there and win. I know myself that unless it has as a scratch section I don’t bother any more.

[gioguy21]

yea no handicapped events for me either -- seen WAY too much in my time to just hand the money over with no chance. 

[MtlJeff]

Sandbagging is VERY common, but i think its different in reality than what you read on the internet. Yes, a 10 index can win an event shooting 76 and it angers everyone. But as has been posted that can only happen once. If you are doing that regularly--Good luck having friends at your club. I have seen stuff like that happen, but again...you will be ridiculed until you start posting correctly. it's almost not worth winning

 

what IS very common is guys manipulating their index to stay in certain flights. Let's say you have a lot of talented players at your club and the A flight is <5.4 index. Having an index from 4.0-5.4 puts you in no-mans land where you have no chance in the As but are too good for AA. Around interclub time or club championship--It's amazing how many guys have like a 5.5 or 5.6 index exactly (often with 86% of their scores entered, right above the min number)

 

There are guys who have been AA like 10 years in a row, you'd think just once their index might have been 5.1 at CC time, but gosh it never happens. You see the same thing with B flight as well

[MountainKing]

I've said it numerous times, I won't ever play in an event that uses handicaps.  Beyond the sandbagging aspect, if you win an event shooting a lights out score you'll be accused of it.  

[tatertot]

2 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

Sandbagging is VERY common, but i think its different in reality than what you read on the internet. Yes, a 10 index can win an event shooting 76 and it angers everyone. But as has been posted that can only happen once. If you are doing that regularly--Good luck having friends at your club. I have seen stuff like that happen, but again...you will be ridiculed until you start posting correctly. it's almost not worth winning

 

what IS very common is guys manipulating their index to stay in certain flights. Let's say you have a lot of talented players at your club and the A flight is <5.4 index. Having an index from 4.0-5.4 puts you in no-mans land where you have no chance in the As but are too good for AA. Around interclub time or club championship--It's amazing how many guys have like a 5.5 or 5.6 index exactly (often with 86% of their scores entered, right above the min number)

 

There are guys who have been AA like 10 years in a row, you'd think just once their index might have been 5.1 at CC time, but gosh it never happens. You see the same thing with B flight as well

At my former club, it sandbagging was a running joke. The competition wasn't how well you played an event, it was how well you bagged before an event. When the rules are flaunted, it's time for a change to the rules. Or the club.

[dbleag]

sandbaggers = cheaters

 

Let's call it like it is.....

 

Giving cheating a cute name makes it seem less offensive or more acceptable.

[MtlJeff]

10 minutes ago, tatertot said:

At my former club, it sandbagging was a running joke. The competition wasn't how well you played an event, it was how well you bagged before an event. When the rules are flaunted, it's time for a change to the rules. Or the club.

 

The examples i give, i don't know what to think about it really. If you fluctuate between a 4-6 index for example...it DOES kind of suck if you happen to be a 4.9 the day of the CC and posting one more score would knock something out and make you a 5.6 for example. A 4.9 has zero chance in the A flight, it's much more fun to have a shot at the AAs and i have a hard time calling what these guys do "cheating" in the same sense as like, kicking a ball into the fairway

 

Interclubs it's the same thing, there's no AA flight. Only A and B. So if you are like a 8.6....you can't play in them. A lot of these guys become 10.4s for the qualification and then are 8-9's again by the time the tournament happens. Again, it's just kinda commonly accepted.

 

[dbleag]

There is a guy at the course I play who would shoot 78's and 79's in tournaments.

 

Then, he would go out and post scores of 88-92 by himself or with his significant other.

 

The handicap committee finally figured out his system and made his tournament scores stay in his top 20 GHIN scores for several months, and he was told that he could not post scores unless in a foursome.

 

That not only fixed him, but scared-straight all the others who were milking the system.

[MattM97]

Tournaments seem to be either sandbaggers or dudes cheating. I played a charity tournament last week and it was a modified best ball, use the best drive and your own ball in. My 2 buddies and I all play around the same handicap and are close when we normally play, we shot 80, 80 and 81 at the tournament. Another group in front of us who we play with sometimes apparently shot 69 (-2), 71 (E) and 80, the guy who shot 80 is another buddy who I play with, when we play his best scores are like 100-105 so they were 100% cheating.

 

I went off on them and said I'm not paying out team bets cause no way in hell they shot under par since we watched them the entire round being behind them. 

[tatertot]

5 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

The examples i give, i don't know what to think about it really. If you fluctuate between a 4-6 index for example...it DOES kind of suck if you happen to be a 4.9 the day of the CC and posting one more score would knock something out and make you a 5.6 for example. A 4.9 has zero chance in the A flight, it's much more fun to have a shot at the AAs and i have a hard time calling what these guys do "cheating" in the same sense as like, kicking a ball into the fairway

 

Interclubs it's the same thing, there's no AA flight. Only A and B. So if you are like a 8.6....you can't play in them. A lot of these guys become 10.4s for the qualification and then are 8-9's again by the time the tournament happens. Again, it's just kinda commonly accepted.

 

I get that ... and accept it ... at my old club, it went beyond that.

 

It had become accepted that XXXX would shoot a 71 during comp, yet they kept a 8.X handicap, and when they came in after a "casual" round, everybody would yell "hey, did you shoot another 79 today?" And they would answer back "Guess I had too much to drink."

Edited August 16, 2021 by tatertot

[BeerPerHole]

I appreciate all the input on this. Last night my son and I felt somewhat deflated after the awards ceremony. Looks like we probably shot the lowest gross score of the outing and got nothing for it. When we came to the club a few years ago I was a total hack, starting out around a 20 or so and have really worked on bringing it down. My boy has worked hard at it and, in spite of having a disability, has become a pretty good ball striker. He tee shots were incredible yesterday. I'm not going to post bullsh*t in order to be competitive. May go the way of Ty Webb as I continue to improve...haha. Ty Webb didn't even post scores....funny.

[jvincent]

27 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

The examples i give, i don't know what to think about it really. If you fluctuate between a 4-6 index for example...it DOES kind of suck if you happen to be a 4.9 the day of the CC and posting one more score would knock something out and make you a 5.6 for example. A 4.9 has zero chance in the A flight, it's much more fun to have a shot at the AAs and i have a hard time calling what these guys do "cheating" in the same sense as like, kicking a ball into the fairway

 

Interclubs it's the same thing, there's no AA flight. Only A and B. So if you are like a 8.6....you can't play in them. A lot of these guys become 10.4s for the qualification and then are 8-9's again by the time the tournament happens. Again, it's just kinda commonly accepted.

 

I have had the misfortune of posting a couple of good rounds right before the cutoff date for our CC and just sneaking into A a couple of times. It sucks, but hey, that's life.

 

I've been stuck in the upper B range this year (no AA in Ontario) and ended up winning the B-flight. Yay me!

[MtlJeff]

3 minutes ago, jvincent said:

I have had the misfortune of posting a couple of good rounds right before the cutoff date for our CC and just sneaking into A a couple of times. It sucks, but hey, that's life.

 

I've been stuck in the upper B range this year (no AA in Ontario) and ended up winning the B-flight. Yay me!

 

I know guys who do that too, i always respect it. One guy in particular i can think of, last 10 years he has probably played 5 times in AA and 5 times in A. He actually won the AA one year and then played in A's the following with like a 5.0 index. I'm sure he could've manipulated it a bit but didn't.

[MtlJeff]

15 minutes ago, BeerPerHole said:

I appreciate all the input on this. Last night my son and I felt somewhat deflated after the awards ceremony. Looks like we probably shot the lowest gross score of the outing and got nothing for it. When we came to the club a few years ago I was a total hack, starting out around a 20 or so and have really worked on bringing it down. My boy has worked hard at it and, in spite of having a disability, has become a pretty good ball striker. He tee shots were incredible yesterday. I'm not going to post bullsh*t in order to be competitive. May go the way of Ty Webb as I continue to improve...haha. Ty Webb didn't even post scores....funny.

 

If you're at a private club, in my experience if guys are constantly doing shady stuff, like shooting way below their indexes in events, or posting ridiculous handicapped vegas scores....they will eventually get called out on it.

 

But it does happen. I just see it like pyramid schemes...LOL...you can only fleece people so many times before everyone hates you

[UncleJohn’sBand]

1 hour ago, BeerPerHole said:

I appreciate all the input on this. Last night my son and I felt somewhat deflated after the awards ceremony. Looks like we probably shot the lowest gross score of the outing and got nothing for it. When we came to the club a few years ago I was a total hack, starting out around a 20 or so and have really worked on bringing it down. My boy has worked hard at it and, in spite of having a disability, has become a pretty good ball striker. He tee shots were incredible yesterday. I'm not going to post bullsh*t in order to be competitive. May go the way of Ty Webb as I continue to improve...haha. Ty Webb didn't even post scores....funny.

I have gone the way of Ty Webb myself, in the fact that the only scores that get posted are tournament scores from me. My handicap fluctuates a bit during the year, but it is basically a competition only handicap. 

 

I have found since returning to amateur golf that people who worry most about handicaps are the ones who always seem to be getting one or two too many themselves. Personally, outside of a member guest I play with my dad, I wont play any handicapped events because its a waste of my time and money to lose to a 15 who "miraculously" had the round of his life for a 77 net 62. Every. Single. Week. 

[dubbelbogey]

Sandbagging far more common than vanity capping, in my experience. It's too easy, too tempting and one can work the margins of the rules to gain an edge and not get caught. I don't play handicapped events (mostly, except for a once a year buddies tournament that is 95% social, 5% competition).

 

On the topic of vanity caps. Yes, there are those players that have them, but there are also those players who have an index that is probably lower than some would think because they seldom  play in the pressured situation of full-blown tournament competition. Most folks play worse in those conditions, under that sort of mental pressure. It's not their fault, their scores are legitimate per the USGA handicap system, but just don't really reflect how they'd play in tournament situations. I'd say that is not vanity capping. (And I'm somewhat discounting Thursday night men's/women's league as "tournament" conditions.)

 

Oh - and why would I, as a golfer who is definitely not scratch, enter a scratch tournament? I think there's probably a lot like me who do it for the pure fun. Same reason one enters a road running race where you know you're going to finish many, many minutes (if not hours) behind the elite runners. It's fun to see how you really stack up. The prizes and hardware are virtually immaterial.

Edited August 16, 2021 by dubbelbogey

[Frankensteins Monster]

1 hour ago, MattM97 said:

I played a charity tournament last week and it was a modified best ball, use the best drive and your own ball in.

That's called a Shamble.

[MattM97]

Just now, Frankensteins Monster said:

That's called a Shamble.

 

Thanks I knew it had a name just forgot it. 

[Roody]

 

58 minutes ago, dubbelbogey said:

Sandbagging far more common than vanity capping, in my experience. It's too easy, too tempting and one can work the margins of the rules to gain an edge and not get caught.

 

Some guy joked with me one time and said "don't ever make a putt that you don't have to". I'm thinking "did this dude just admit to me that he sandbags?"

 

 

[RmoorePE]

Don't enter tournaments that don't offer both net and gross payout/prizes (or are correctly flighted, or both). The best player(s) that day should be rewarded, and should be plainly stated on the rules.

 

Even if there are no sandbaggers, higher handicap players tend to be more volatile scorers. In something like the Chapman described the high capper may be a terrible driver of the ball which drives his scoring and in the format they just use the other players drives. Maybe he flubs chips, or 3 putts a lot etc, but with the alternate shot it gets covered up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ArtMBgolf]

Sandbagging may not be rampant, but there is always say 5% of a membership 
that are suspected sandbaggers and vanity caps that you don't want as a 
partner.     
 
Depending on your club or league, it may be best to only use tournament or 
league scores, instead of a full USGA Hdc they can play around with.   
 
We used to have a situation where the 12-16 guys who went to Myrtle Beach
in March, with rusty games on hard courses, would return with 7-9 postable 
scores that would knock out that many good scores from last year.  Then 
some from the MB group would be winning for the next month or two.                  

[nsxguy]

23 hours ago, BeerPerHole said:

I'm starting to wonder about this. I'm fairly new to competitions, just the last few years. I have noticed in previous club competitions guys shooting well under their handicaps (10 strokes or more)...and, often it's the same few guys. So, I thought, "OK, maybe a few baggers" and just moved on. Today my son and I played in a jr/sr. I'm an 11 index, he's right around me but I think a little lower. It was a modified scotch (pick one drive, then alternate shot). We played very well for us and came in 1 over. But, we didn't even place. 1st, 2nd and 3rd place all shot higher gross than us. The Sr of the other team paired with us is a guy I know very well. We beat them by 4 strokes but half way through the round I asked his index. "25"...I just stared at him...He's very close to me in skill. They took 2nd. I'm not ticked, but you know that feeling when who wonder if you were just duped? That's what it feels like. I'd like to play these other teams straight up for lunch or $. Those would be very good matches. I'm curious if others here with indexes like mine, almost singles, find that this is a range where you're in a pickle in competitions. Or, is the world just rife with baggers? I can't help but chuckle about this...

 

You and your son are both 11s.

 

That's essentially the same as a single 11 handicap getting 2 chances to hit a drive. After the drive you're only 1 guy.

 

You 2 shot net of -10. How often do either of you post a net of -10 on your own ball ?

 

Now, you say you and that 25 guy are about the same. Is that really true ?

 

If it is, have you looked up his GHIN handicap or checked with the committee ? Seen any anomalies there, especially between tournament and casual rounds ?

 

The A problem is many very experienced players don't really understand the odds. The minute anybody shoots a low net the cries of "sandbagger" ring out.

 

In the USA, on average, there are about 1,000,000 rounds per day.

 

The odds of an 11 shooting a net of -10 is a bit over 84,000 to 1 yet you and your son did it (and yes, I know that the 2nd drive makes a difference - can't be sure how much).

 

So let's say the 2nd drive saved you guys about 4 strokes for the round. Sounds about right ? That lowers your net to about -6. That is a mere 1200 to 1. Still sounds pretty farfetched, no ? Yet you guys did it.

 

I'm guessing neither you nor your son are sandbaggers yet you guys shot a net of -10. The fact that you lost is,,,,,,,, well,,,,,,, interesting (I guess). 

 

 

[nsxguy]

18 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

It’s something which seems to have become much more common here in Scotland since the new WHS came into being. Single figure players and low single figure players in particular actively not playing in competitions that they once would because there is literally no point in teeing up if you want to go out there and win. I know myself that unless it has as a scratch section I don’t bother any more.

 

You're a wise man.

 

The odds of a higher handicapper shooting a low(er) net than a low handicapper, are CONSIDERABLY BETTER.

 

Add to that there are usually far more higher handicappers in a net event and, if you're a low single digit, you should go in with eyes wide open and enjoy the day.

 

This is especially true when you're playing a Stableford or similar comp where the score on any single hole is capped.

[MattyO1984]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

You're a wise man.

 

The odds of a higher handicapper shooting a low(er) net than a low handicapper, are CONSIDERABLY BETTER.

 

Add to that there are usually far more higher handicappers in a net event and, if you're a low single digit, you should go in with eyes wide open and enjoy the day.

 

This is especially true when you're playing a Stableford or similar comp where the score on any single hole is capped.

 

My club has seen some unbelievable net scores winning. If anyone with a single figures handicap was shooting anywhere near low enough to win those events, the would need to be playing on Tour. It’s a real shame as the WHS was supposed to get more people playing the game but it’s putting people off actually playing competitive golf.

[bladehunter]

In all seriousness…. It depends on the club. But sometimes.  Absolutely.   
 

 

my club I have griped about here a lot. We’re now  in the 3rd season of wheat I feel like is a “ clean “ environment.   So my and a couple other committee members angst and vigilance seems to have paid off big.    
 

we post all our events scores for the players , snd we now track our problem children until they prove to be posting each round.  With spot checks for all 130 some odd handicap members. This ran off 3 members. But it was a gain overall in participation. Which I knew it would be. 
 

but.  Back to the point.  We took in 7 members from another club thats drastically gone downhill , and 5 of those seemed to get it right off the bat.  They posted scores , and played in events online with their cap.  But. 2 of those guys were part of a “ one round posted in 6 months “ trend and seemed to play 5-6 shots better than their cap regularly .  So we had a one on one conversation explaining the hole we just dug out of snd that they’d need to post all scores not Just the ones we posted for them.  Or we didn’t want them.  Period.  Both of their handicaps have dropped almost overnight since they complied.  I hate to call anyone a cheater.  But.  
 

yes it’s more of a thing than some here want to believe.  But you can eventually stamp it out if you get a few voices to get loud with you.  

Edited August 17, 2021 by bladehunter

[bladehunter]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

You're a wise man.

 

The odds of a higher handicapper shooting a low(er) net than a low handicapper, are CONSIDERABLY BETTER.

 

Add to that there are usually far more higher handicappers in a net event and, if you're a low single digit, you should go in with eyes wide open and enjoy the day.

 

This is especially true when you're playing a Stableford or similar comp where the score on any single hole is capped.

I agree with this , but I do find stableford with a running week to week points book to be the absolutely best way.  Or most fair way for a group to play.  Throw in a Blind draw partner of A players and B players and you have a really fair chance of winning. You can’t fake it really.  If you’re willing to loose on purpose 5-6 weeks in a row just to get points down enough to then win the next week , welll that’s stupid strategy because it’s loosing money overall.  So it tends to kill all sandbagging.