LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Hawkeye77]

10 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

35 of the 54 man field were top 100 in the owgr before they went to LIV.  LIV has recent major winners, recent tour winners/contenders, older stars, younger up and coming players, and a slew of proven players.  How does LIV have a weak field?  LIV also has several of the most popular players that were on the pga tour (based on the pga tours own pip ratings) how are these people no one cares about?  A mix of stars and journeymen that have a small chance of winning.  LIV has everything the pga tour does, just more condensed.  

Some fake Rolex watches have a few high quality parts.

 

The truth is the truth, in general virtually nobody cares about LIV as measured by any traditional metric. People see through it.

Edited March 20 by Hawkeye77

[bcjim]

10 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

35 of the 54 man field were top 100 in the owgr before they went to LIV.  LIV has recent major winners, recent tour winners/contenders, older stars, younger up and coming players, and a slew of proven players.  How does LIV have a weak field?  LIV also has several of the most popular players that were on the pga tour (based on the pga tours own pip ratings) how are these people no one cares about?  A mix of stars and journeymen that have a small chance of winning.  LIV has everything the pga tour does, just more condensed.  

And yet nobody gaf.

[bscinstnct]

7 hours ago, notsohard said:

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Sounds like the bottom line is we could still be a year or much more from a deal. 
 

Not sure if that means that there won’t be a truce or cooperation in the meantime

 

But looks like ARum is intent on seeing LIV through and has no interest in putting it under Jays (or anyone else’s) control 

[ahenderX]

7 hours ago, notsohard said:

 

 

 

I think it’s clear the Saudi’s have, from day one, asked for more than what the Tour is willing to provide. Big Al wants to be a big shot is US golf. It’s all about his ego than his supposed love for golf. The fact the dialog is “open” means nothing. SSG members are the ones Big Al needs to convince. Not Jay Monahan.

[JungleJimbo]

PGA has John Deere ... LIV Golf has JCB.

 

Edited March 20 by JungleJimbo

[Noles]

10 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

35 of the 54 man field were top 100 in the owgr before they went to LIV.  LIV has recent major winners, recent tour winners/contenders, older stars, younger up and coming players, and a slew of proven players.  How does LIV have a weak field?  LIV also has several of the most popular players that were on the pga tour (based on the pga tours own pip ratings) how are these people no one cares about?  A mix of stars and journeymen that have a small chance of winning.  LIV has everything the pga tour does, just more condensed.  

What you say about the player on LIV is true, but LIV itself is boring and irrelevant and the lack of viewership and interest in its teams proves that.  

[SwooshLT]

I've avoided commenting on this faction breakaway as I'm not one to tell anyone that they shouldn't take more money than any of would no what to do with. Rahm making comments NOW after his haul tells me everything as I suspected.....LIV guys have their cake and want to eat it also..... unless concessions are made for current PGAT guys monetarily,  there's no possible way for LIV to come back equitably..... shame how it always comes down to cold hard cash 

[Hawkeye77]

 

14 minutes ago, ahenderX said:

I think it’s clear the Saudi’s have, from day one, asked for more than what the Tour is willing to provide. Big Al wants to be a big shot is US golf. It’s all about his ego than his supposed love for golf. The fact the dialog is “open” means nothing. SSG members are the ones Big Al needs to convince. Not Jay Monahan.

 

I think the suggestion is the relationship is open, not the dialogue (which won't be) - it's open in the sense that they let people know they are meeting and weren't hiding it (I'm sure publicized for PR or "strategic" reasons) and that Tiger played golf with what's his name and so forth, but I think that's about it for the "open" part.

[CDM]

2 hours ago, ahenderX said:

SSG members are the ones Big Al needs to convince. 

 

You Know that a majority of the SSG's key investors already have strong relationships with the Saudis?  Maybe not Arum directly but with SA they do and it is documented.  *Jay M even noted at the Players press confrence that the SSG / PGAT deal was done with PIF intent.

 

One fact in life and business like this:   "Money loves Money"     and both parties have a lot of money....!  

 

The devil will be in the details. Any contract like this, what will matter most is the details should something not be amicable 5-10 years or so down the road. 

 

I stand by my statement last year.    Should a deal be made, the more players who meet with PIF/Arum, etc. the more the players will start to see this as a "collective" over time and that it is "okay" to pick one tour over the other as time goes on.  This proposed merger removes the "rivalry" view that has fueled all this.  

 

As @bscinstnct  noted it fully seems Arum has intent on seeing LIV through.  Unless a deal "restructures" LIV somehow it does not seem like it is going anywhere. 

[aus10KC]

7 hours ago, notsohard said:

 

 

 

 

I think it's no surprise that Yasir and the players board are very far apart. It's about control and both sides want it. 

 

Yasir wants his world tour and to use the best players in the world which a large majority are still on PGAT. 

 

He seems like a very personable guy that is likeable. Probably a big reason why he is in his position running PIF. But his talk of growing the game blah blah I don't believe is genuine. If that were the case they'd be growing the MENA tour and developing golfers in their part of the world.

 

 

[CDM]

23 hours ago, aus10KC said:

But his talk of growing the game blah blah I don't believe is genuine.

 

I think his intent is genuine but I do think many on here are taking it out of content.   They want to grow the game, but everyone tries to imply "it is for love of the game".   The intent is to grow the game for revenue.  All of this is a business aspect. If not why would SSG come to the table?    

 

Dont fooled either, when the PGAT, USGA, etc was pushing "grow the game"  it was not fully based on "love of the game", it was because the game was on a pretty good decline.  *Covid saved it

 

In the business sense it was going to hurt all parties involved,  Revenuse on TV contracts, purse fees, etc.  If you market is dropping you have to rebrand to get them back.   "9 IS FINE" came from that market research.  That golf takes way to long and why people lost interest.  *Most dont have ALL day to spend playing with driving time, etc..   

 

You might recall the next thing after is all of us can post 9 holes scores for GHIN  😁

 

Arum may personally love the game, but at his core he is 100% business.   I mean we all know, if he was not looking at the business side first and forement do we think he would "still be around" ???

Edited March 21 by CDM

[Titleist99]

And this ladies and gentlemen is what's called negotiating from a position of strength:

 

"Partnering with the PGA Tour would give them a greater and more consistent audience in the United States and provide a much better return on investment than LIV Golf currently provides, which is why the Public Investment Fund is currently in talks about partnering with the PGA Tour."

[Titleist99]

57 minutes ago, aus10KC said:

 

I think it's no surprise that Yasir and the players board are very far apart. It's about control and both sides want it. 

 

Yasir wants his world tour and to use the best players in the world which a large majority are still on PGAT. 

 

He seems like a very personable guy that is likeable. Probably a big reason why he is in his position running PIF. But his talk of growing the game blah blah I don't believe is genuine. If that were the case they'd be growing the MENA tour and developing golfers in their part of the world.

 

 

100%. The PGAT wants control and the added revenue. LIV could buy five more Jon Rahms and will still only get 200-300K faithful viewers which most are on this very board.🤣 (I Kid)

[ahenderX]

1 hour ago, aus10KC said:

 

I think it's no surprise that Yasir and the players board are very far apart. It's about control and both sides want it. 

 

Yasir wants his world tour and to use the best players in the world which a large majority are still on PGAT. 

 

He seems like a very personable guy that is likeable. Probably a big reason why he is in his position running PIF. But his talk of growing the game blah blah I don't believe is genuine. If that were the case they'd be growing the MENA tour and developing golfers in their part of the world.

 

 

Big Al might be a likeable person but he has no problem telling a lie if it gets him what he wants. See Newcastle FC for details. As I have stated before, he told Premier League clubs he was not “actually” affiliated with the SA government. Then during deposition in the PGA/LIV lawsuits he declared diplomatic immunity. He simply can’t be trusted. 

[GreatStrike]

5 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

PGA has John Deere ... LIV Golf has JCB.

 

 

JCB employs over 15,000 employees worldwide. 

[jdl]

17 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Who is this Rohm guy you find sooo interesting?  🤣 /s

John Rohm

[ahenderX]

17 minutes ago, jdl said:

John Rohm

He claims to be from Spain, but I think he’s Rohmish.

[Titleist99]

32 minutes ago, ahenderX said:

Big Al might be a likeable person but he has no problem telling a lie if it gets him what he wants. See Newcastle FC for details. As I have stated before, he told Premier League clubs he was not “actually” affiliated with the SA government. Then during deposition in the PGA/LIV lawsuits he declared diplomatic immunity. He simply can’t be trusted. 

agreed, but it's up to the PGAT to do its due diligence. The fact that Greg  Norman is involved should be a red flag....

[Dutch1008]

5 hours ago, SwooshLT said:

I've avoided commenting on this faction breakaway as I'm not one to tell anyone that they shouldn't take more money than any of would no what to do with. Rahm making comments NOW after his haul tells me everything as I suspected.....LIV guys have their cake and want to eat it also..... unless concessions are made for current PGAT guys monetarily,  there's no possible way for LIV to come back equitably..... shame how it always comes down to cold hard cash 

 

I actually think this part is easy. In the event of a merger, LIV players aren't eligible for the PGAT Enterprises equity pool. Certainly not eligible for initial grants and perhaps blocked for earning future grants for X number of years. 

 

I think there are three real sticking points to the negotiation...

 

1. Valuation - How much of PGATE is the PIF getting for their investment, is the PGAT or SSG giving any consideration to the value of LIV?

2. Governance - What is Yassir / PIFs role on the board?

3. What to do w/ LIV?

 

My thoughts...

1. The PIFs capital should come in at the same valuation as SSG. I think that is the easy part. The hard part is that I don't believe the PGAT or SSG thinks LIV is worth anything and I think the PIF is too proud to accept that. 

2. Yassir will get a seat and will likely put Rahm or another LIV player or two on the policy board (Probably the easiest problem of the three)

3. Another big sticking point. I'd guess that the PGAT and SSG would prefer to scrap it all together but would probably accept changing LIV to a 3-4 event team series that compliments the primary tour. I personally think that makes a lot of sense but I'd guess the PIFs ego will have trouble accepting that. 

[jls667]

I feel like many are over thinking this. Yasir isn't an idiot and I'm sure he notices the complete waste of money and abject failure LIV has been. However, he still wants a seat at the professional golf table and wants to put his money somewhere that will actually have a positive ROI. 

 

I wouldn't be shocked if the discussions are centered around finding a path back to the PGAT for some of the LIV players in a way that would be fair to those who stayed so as to avoid bad blood amongst players, while also finding a way for Yasir/PIF to be invested in the tour. LIV and the team golf concept has brought zero value to the PIF and has clearly shown to be of no interest to the public. That's why just finding a way back to the PGAT for those select few LIV guys, then shutting down LIV, is the only logical solution. Not creating some PGAT vs LIV team golf series, or inter-tour tournament. Everyone back to the PGA and DP Tours where they have proved to be successful at actually getting people to watch it, which in the end is the only thing that matters. Tiger and Co. just need to find a way to make this happen without pissing off a lot of players both on the PGA and DP Tours.

Edited March 20 by jls667

[Dutch1008]

11 minutes ago, jls667 said:

I feel like many are over thinking this. Yasir isn't an idiot and I'm sure he notices the complete waste of money and abject failure LIV has been. However, he still wants a seat at the professional golf table and wants to put his money somewhere that will actually have a positive ROI. 

 

I wouldn't be shocked if the discussions are centered around finding a path back to the PGAT for some of the LIV players in a way that would be fair to those who stayed so as to avoid bad blood amongst players, while also finding a way for Yasir/PIF to be invested in the tour. LIV and the team golf concept has brought zero value to the PIF and has clearly shown to be of no interest to the public. That's why just finding a way back to the PGAT for those select few LIV guys, then shutting down LIV, is the only logical solution. Not creating some PGAT vs LIV team golf series, or inter-tour tournament. Everyone back to the PGA and DP Tours where they have proved to be successful at actually getting people to watch it, which in the end is the only thing that matters. Tiger and Co. just need to find a way to make this happen without pissing off a lot of players both on the PGA and DP Tours.

 

If it was that simple it'd already be done. They've already established a mechanism to reward those that stayed. Players are getting equity grants in PGAT Enterprises. Jon Rahm gets $300M from the PIF, Rory gets X% of PGAT Enterprises. Scale down the player pool as appropriate.

 

With all that has happened over the last two years, I don't think there is any chance we return to the pre-LIV days. The top guys are now conditioned to only participate in major championships and $20M+ limited field events. The toothpaste is out of the tube and isn't going back in.  

[Titleist99]

59 minutes ago, jls667 said:

I feel like many are over thinking this. Yasir isn't an idiot and I'm sure he notices the complete waste of money and abject failure LIV has been. However, he still wants a seat at the professional golf table and wants to put his money somewhere that will actually have a positive ROI. 

 

I wouldn't be shocked if the discussions are centered around finding a path back to the PGAT for some of the LIV players in a way that would be fair to those who stayed so as to avoid bad blood amongst players, while also finding a way for Yasir/PIF to be invested in the tour. LIV and the team golf concept has brought zero value to the PIF and has clearly shown to be of no interest to the public. That's why just finding a way back to the PGAT for those select few LIV guys, then shutting down LIV, is the only logical solution. Not creating some PGAT vs LIV team golf series, or inter-tour tournament. Everyone back to the PGA and DP Tours where they have proved to be successful at actually getting people to watch it, which in the end is the only thing that matters. Tiger and Co. just need to find a way to make this happen without pissing off a lot of players both on the PGA and DP Tours.

"That's why just finding a way back to the PGAT for those select few LIV guys, then shutting down LIV, is the only logical solution"

 

Whoa! Let's not get crazy here. PGAT players will never let LIV shut down IMO Jay Monahan won't let that happen. LIV was circling the drain when the framework alliance was born. When this plays out PGAT players will have control of both tours.

Edited March 20 by Titleist99

[King_Slender]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I actually think this part is easy. In the event of a merger, LIV players aren't eligible for the PGAT Enterprises equity pool. Certainly not eligible for initial grants and perhaps blocked for earning future grants for X number of years. 

 

I think there are three real sticking points to the negotiation...

 

1. Valuation - How much of PGATE is the PIF getting for their investment, is the PGAT or SSG giving any consideration to the value of LIV?

2. Governance - What is Yassir / PIFs role on the board?

3. What to do w/ LIV?

 

My thoughts...

1. The PIFs capital should come in at the same valuation as SSG. I think that is the easy part. The hard part is that I don't believe the PGAT or SSG thinks LIV is worth anything and I think the PIF is too proud to accept that. 

2. Yassir will get a seat and will likely put Rahm or another LIV player or two on the policy board (Probably the easiest problem of the three)

3. Another big sticking point. I'd guess that the PGAT and SSG would prefer to scrap it all together but would probably accept changing LIV to a 3-4 event team series that compliments the primary tour. I personally think that makes a lot of sense but I'd guess the PIFs ego will have trouble accepting that. 

 

What even is the PGA equity pool?  Equity in what?  Are they like stock shares that players can sell?  How will future golfers earn shares? 

 

As far as I can tell it's a roundabout way for Jay to get a pool of money and just give it to top players because they are who fans want to come out and see (sound familiar)?  

 

 

[King_Slender]

4 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

"That's why just finding a way back to the PGAT for those select few LIV guys, then shutting down LIV, is the only logical solution"

 

Whoa! Let's not get crazy here. PGAT players will never let LIV shut down IMO Jay Monahan won't let that happen. LIV was circling the drain when the framework alliance was born. When this plays out PGAT players will have control of both tours.

 

LIV was circling the drain?

 

The entire point of the "framework agreement" was to end the lawsuits because the PGA coffers were being bled dry with legal fees and to prevent discovery of communications, would have likely showed Jay and staff colluding against the players.  

 

Hence why Jay said Monday's meeting was "due diligence" - since the original agreement had nothing to do with anybody but Jay and his closest staff. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I actually think this part is easy. In the event of a merger, LIV players aren't eligible for the PGAT Enterprises equity pool. Certainly not eligible for initial grants and perhaps blocked for earning future grants for X number of years. 

 

I think there are three real sticking points to the negotiation...

 

1. Valuation - How much of PGATE is the PIF getting for their investment, is the PGAT or SSG giving any consideration to the value of LIV?

2. Governance - What is Yassir / PIFs role on the board?

3. What to do w/ LIV?

 

My thoughts...

1. The PIFs capital should come in at the same valuation as SSG. I think that is the easy part. The hard part is that I don't believe the PGAT or SSG thinks LIV is worth anything and I think the PIF is too proud to accept that. 

2. Yassir will get a seat and will likely put Rahm or another LIV player or two on the policy board (Probably the easiest problem of the three)

3. Another big sticking point. I'd guess that the PGAT and SSG would prefer to scrap it all together but would probably accept changing LIV to a 3-4 event team series that compliments the primary tour. I personally think that makes a lot of sense but I'd guess the PIFs ego will have trouble accepting that. 

I like this.

 

But not specific to you, where is the ROI coming from for this pool of investors? That's the HUGE unanswered question in all of this. Do they somehow think they can create a new golf product that golf fans are suddenly going to turn lunatic fans like the NFL and dump crazy sums of money to watch? Or sponsors willing to dump more money into the sport? If so they're smokin dope. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

12 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

LIV was circling the drain?

 

The entire point of the "framework agreement" was to end the lawsuits because the PGA coffers were being bled dry with legal fees and to prevent discovery of communications, would have likely showed Jay and staff colluding against the players.  

 

Hence why Jay said Monday's meeting was "due diligence" - since the original agreement had nothing to do with anybody but Jay and his closest staff. 

Was and still is circling the drain.

 

Billions spent for big name stars, the easiest golf to watch totally for free and yet it hasn't gained a bit of traction. 

[Shilgy]

18 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

35 of the 54 man field were top 100 in the owgr before they went to LIV.  LIV has recent major winners, recent tour winners/contenders, older stars, younger up and coming players, and a slew of proven players.  How does LIV have a weak field?  LIV also has several of the most popular players that were on the pga tour (based on the pga tours own pip ratings) how are these people no one cares about?  A mix of stars and journeymen that have a small chance of winning.  LIV has everything the pga tour does, just more condensed.  

I’d love to see that list.  Reasoning is Kaymer and McDowell came to mind immediately and neither was in the top 100 for first LIV event.  
 

Maybe your popularity question is fans are fickle.  If you’re a Red Sox fan and your favorite signs with the Yankees you likely won’t be a fan of his any longer.

 

I like DJ for example.  Not any longer.

[Dutch1008]

24 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

What even is the PGA equity pool?  Equity in what?  Are they like stock shares that players can sell?  How will future golfers earn shares? 

 

As far as I can tell it's a roundabout way for Jay to get a pool of money and just give it to top players because they are who fans want to come out and see (sound familiar)?  

 

I haven't seen a ton of details here. I imagine it would work like a typical private company ESOP. It's not a public company so players won't be able to buy and sell in an active market. In a traditional ESOP, a company typically buys back shares from employees at retirement. In the VC world, employees frequently take loans against their shares to get liquidity. This is how Elon lives a lavish lifestyle despite taking a $1 salary from Tesla. He simply takes tax free distributions via loans from private lenders.

 

I have no idea how players will earn shares, though I don't think that's too hard to figure out. Some formula based on time and performance. Kept your card for 5 years? Congrats, you've earned shares! Won the tour championship? Congrats, here's an equity grant. Etc.  

 

This isn't a roundabout way for Jay to compensate top players. Its a clear, transparent, and very direct way for Jay to compensate top players. I imagine initial grants are going to be based on a players track record, tenure, and possibly, what they turned down from LIV. Moving forward I imagine is will be very time + performance oriented.    

[tomjas]

2 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

agreed, but it's up to the PGAT to do its due diligence. The fact that Greg  Norman is involved should be a red flag....

PIF is a known entity so DD takes about 15 seconds 

 

That part of the statement was nonsense 

[tomjas]

4 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

And this ladies and gentlemen is what's called negotiating from a position of strength:

 

"Partnering with the PGA Tour would give them a greater and more consistent audience in the United States and provide a much better return on investment than LIV Golf currently provides, which is why the Public Investment Fund is currently in talks about partnering with the PGA Tour."

Sunday’s viewership of Players was a 10 year low

 

Not so strong after all