LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[stinger_gc]

2 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

How is it even remotely close to being tilted in LIV’s favor?  Let’s go back to June 2022, before the defections and the OWGR issue.

 

Here’s a split between the PGA Tour and LIV’s current players based on those rankings

 

PGA Tour

1,3,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,17,18

 

LIV

2,4,15,16,19,20

 

So the PGA Tour still has 80% of the Top 10, 80% of the Top 15 and 70% of the Top 20.  And LIV had to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $1 billion up front for those six players.  And have generated zero positive cash flow, but rather incurred massive losses, over the last two years.  And they have a CEO who thinks that 18-25 year olds checking their phone for LIV info a few seconds a day is a ‘massively valuable market’.  This is the organization threatening the future of the PGA Tour?  Seriously?  If so, the PGA Tour wasn’t much of a business to begin with.  If the PGA Tour does any deal with the PIF that isn’t a total win/destruction of LIV, this would be the biggest ownage in the history of M&A and the members should immediately file suit against the commissioner.

A deal with the PIF isn’t magically gonna kill LIV lol. They might phase it out eventually and incorporate elements of it but Jay or Tiger can’t snap a finger and make LIV go away

[freeze16172002]

7 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

A deal with the PIF isn’t magically gonna kill LIV lol. They might phase it out eventually and incorporate elements of it but Jay or Tiger can’t snap a finger and make LIV go away

If LIV players playing on the PGA tour is on the table, LIV going away is on the table also. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

10 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

A deal with the PIF isn’t magically gonna kill LIV lol. They might phase it out eventually and incorporate elements of it but Jay or Tiger can’t snap a finger and make LIV go away

 

Sure they can. You don't think the PIF has ways to get out of every contract they've written for LIV? 

 

LIV is not PIF, but PIF controls LIV. If PIF agrees to LIV going away as a condition of this deal, LIV goes away. 

[dcmidnight]

11 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Sure they can. You don't think the PIF has ways to get out of every contract they've written for LIV? 

 

LIV is not PIF, but PIF controls LIV. If PIF agrees to LIV going away as a condition of this deal, LIV goes away. 

 

Very good distinction to draw.

 

IMO if the PGAT puts a deal on the table that gives PIF a real seat at the table and a chance to split some money up - and no I dont know where it comes from - but PIF could look at LIV and say OK, it served its purpose, it got us what we wanted. We'll pay off all these contracts and make it go away.

 

I dont *think* thats what will happen - but honestly these days I have no idea, nothing would surprise me.

[mjtoal]

LIV is all about the team events, developing each team as a brand with its own home course and image and logos, and then franchising it out. To LIV, OWGR is only important in keeping up visibility of the players it wants to market and being able to claim them as top-whatever players. To make the team format work, they need the teams to become recognisable brands, so the big name players, even if over the hill, are needed for that. For the same reason, they want some stability, so no relegation of big names and not too much movement between teams. And to keep the team events working, no cuts and a limited field because of shotgun capacity limitations.

 

Right now, the individual events get more coverage, but LIV sees that change. They don't want Brendan Steele as the headline, they want a team with someone better known in the headlines. Their site even defaults to the team results rather than individual. Seems to me, therefore, that the only way of both PGA Tour and LIV coming together is, as Rory suggested, periods of the season where they have a World Cup style set of team events, and regular individual events the rest of the time, with opposite field events for when the team events are on. 

[Cactus Jack]

Brandel has rethought his position and believes doing a deal is in the Tour's best interest.

 

His comment that any time LIV improves their product, it detracts from the Tour's is a stretch. I'm not certain why he feels that way, considering LIV is an immaterial blip on the radar that nobody cares about. However, I do agree with his point the Tour is in a self-inflicted pickle. The PGAT has become LIV's marketing hype engine and single-handedly keep them in the news cycle. Had the PGAT stayed silent on LIV publicly while dealing with business matters privately, nobody would even know LIV exists. However, now you can't talk about professional golf without talking about LIV, and everything LIV does is artificially heightened. Just play golf, deliver a better fan experience, bear hug your sponsors, and stop talking.  

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/739028/brandel-chamblee-has-a-surprising-new-take-on-the-pga-tour-liv-stand-off/?utm_source=Front&utm_medium=Featured_Latest&utm_campaign=GolfWRX_OnSite&utm_content=unused

[lopey986]

23 hours ago, CDM said:

 

 

Edit: Sorry your main point... "so desperate" to be back on the PGAT.... find one comment of any LIV player saying they want back fully on the tour.  Ie: Media, and PGAT players are the only ones saying it.  Ooooo yea Steve Stricker who says he talked to a "number" of LIV players who want back on the PGAT, but never said "who"  ???  .... "okay"    Sure maybe for 2 -3 events as they openly stated. 

I don't think any want to be FULLY back on the PGAT but...why do they want to mess with any events at all? LIV is the best thing ever, they can just create their own Majors that are way better than what currently exist so why don't they just do that? They want to have their cake and eat it too and it honestly makes me hope they are just locked out of majors and everything else in the next 3-4 years when their exemptions are up.

 

22 hours ago, doc52 said:

They want OWGR points for majors, not to play the John Deere.

It's remarkebly easy to get them, there's a set criteria and everything that has been around for years. 

[jdl]

3 hours ago, mjtoal said:

LIV is all about the team events, developing each team as a brand with its own home course and image and logos, and then franchising it out. To LIV, OWGR is only important in keeping up visibility of the players it wants to market and being able to claim them as top-whatever players. To make the team format work, they need the teams to become recognisable brands, so the big name players, even if over the hill, are needed for that. For the same reason, they want some stability, so no relegation of big names and not too much movement between teams. And to keep the team events working, no cuts and a limited field because of shotgun capacity limitations.

 

Right now, the individual events get more coverage, but LIV sees that change. They don't want Brendan Steele as the headline, they want a team with someone better known in the headlines. Their site even defaults to the team results rather than individual. Seems to me, therefore, that the only way of both PGA Tour and LIV coming together is, as Rory suggested, periods of the season where they have a World Cup style set of team events, and regular individual events the rest of the time, with opposite field events for when the team events are on. 

No one is ever going to care about these teams, they have no attachment to anything. A "home course"? Where? Still not going to be enough.

 

Team tennis was an abject failure because no one cares about teams in that sport either.

[Archimedes65]

15 hours ago, notsohard said:

 

Your Analogies are fine, even sensible if, and a big if, if all parties were economically on par with each other. They are not. The issue/problem/or whatever you want to call it is this..PIF are just playing with fun money. You see it as billions, which it is...for PIF it's just a game. They profit 1 billion everyday.........I'll give you a simple analogy...I just purchased a Shimano Stella reel for $1400, why?, because i can. That same size reel at their bottom end can be bought for $189. See where i'm going with the "money" thing. It's ALL relative. 

 

Agree 100%.  But then why negotiate with them?  The assumption you’re making is that the PGA Tour is already beaten and has no choice but to comply.  If, as you say, they’ve already lost the game, why play it?  Why not try to change the game?  Leverage your strengths to compete in a different way.  Yes, LIV has money, but that’s all they have.  The PGA isn’t without assets or leverage.  Use them.  If you can’t win with a frontal attack, leverage your strengths and try to outflank them.  The changes to the events/purses and the deal with SSG is exactly that strategy.  But the ONLY way a deal with PIF makes any sense is if LIV dies.  The PIF offers nothing else of value, as the PGA Tour doesn’t have a need for additional investment right now.  They wouldn’t be able to put it to economically good use anyway and it would be a terrible business decision to take investment they can’t deploy profitably.

 

Even if LIV takes some more players, the PGA Tour will survive.  The vast majority of the current PGA Tour elite are not going to LIV, and there is a big pool of young talent ready and willing to step up and take their place and play the iconic courses of the PGA Tour while the LIV guys are busy playing the Pumpkinhead Course at Hidden Lakes Country Club and Community Center.

[Archimedes65]

15 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

A deal with the PIF isn’t magically gonna kill LIV lol. They might phase it out eventually and incorporate elements of it but Jay or Tiger can’t snap a finger and make LIV go away

 

Agreed, which is why I don’t think a deal is going to get done, unless the PGA Tour brain trust are morons.  There is no benefit to a deal with the PIF if LIV continues in its current form.  If LIV did not exist, the PGA Tour wouldn’t even be entertaining talks with the PIF.  It is THE only issue that really matters in the negotiations.  Everything else is just window dressing.

[Shilgy]

On 5/8/2024 at 6:38 PM, notsohard said:

Everyone knows that Rory and Yasir are friends. Rory, according to some, did the right thing by sticking it out with the PGAT and tried to get both sides working to an amicable deal. Well that hasn't happened because certain players are involved and have no idea. As for this "deal", it's not about merging LIV with the PGAT. In the end, LIV will have a cut off on their tournaments for points and start recruiting younger golfers. eg: I would throw $20mill at Miles and Kim. The SSG with the PGAT cannot compete. 

Assume you mean Tom Kim?  But seriously?  You think a 16 year old will bring interest when Rahm, Bryson, Phil, Brooks and company cannot?🤭

[stinger_gc]

16 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Agreed, which is why I don’t think a deal is going to get done, unless the PGA Tour brain trust are morons.  There is no benefit to a deal with the PIF if LIV continues in its current form.  If LIV did not exist, the PGA Tour wouldn’t even be entertaining talks with the PIF.  It is THE only issue that really matters in the negotiations.  Everything else is just window dressing.

I think Tiger and the board need to accept this. It’s either let the PIF in or they’re gonna throw more money at top PGAT talent 

Edited May 11 by stinger_gc

[stinger_gc]

20 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Sure they can. You don't think the PIF has ways to get out of every contract they've written for LIV? 

 

LIV is not PIF, but PIF controls LIV. If PIF agrees to LIV going away as a condition of this deal, LIV goes away. 

I don’t think PIF’s just open the wallet and do whatever Tiger wants them to do. Yasir could’ve ended LIV last June and given the tour a couple billion if it was as simple as that 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, stinger_gc said:

I don’t think PIF’s just open the wallet and do whatever Tiger wants them to do. Yasir could’ve ended LIV last June and given the tour a couple billion if it was as simple as that 

I’m not saying it will happen but they could just run it until all of the contracts run out and agree to no more poaching.

[mjtoal]

21 hours ago, jdl said:

No one is ever going to care about these teams, they have no attachment to anything. A "home course"? Where? Still not going to be enough.

 

Team tennis was an abject failure because no one cares about teams in that sport either.

 

It has been widely reported that at least some of the teams are looking to establish a "home course". DJ and Cam Smith have reportedly been looking for sites for their teams. It isn't a terrible idea, gives the franchisee the chance to buy into some tangible assets of value, reduces the risk of the team event thing going south. 

[Holy Moses]

On 5/9/2024 at 11:14 PM, stinger_gc said:

I think a big roadblock might be should LIV guys get equity in PGAT enterprises. 

That can’t happen

[Holy Moses]

23 hours ago, lopey986 said:

I don't think any want to be FULLY back on the PGAT but...why do they want to mess with any events at all? LIV is the best thing ever, they can just create their own Majors that are way better than what currently exist so why don't they just do that? They want to have their cake and eat it too and it honestly makes me hope they are just locked out of majors and everything else in the next 3-4 years when their exemptions are up.

 

It's remarkebly easy to get them, there's a set criteria and everything that has been around for years. 

No LIV players want or care about LIV “majors” if they made them. That’s why Greg is desperate to get OWGR points so his players can play in them. “Way better than the current majors…” lol. I know your post was tongue in cheek, but Greg really believes this stuff.

Edited May 11 by Holy Moses

[Archimedes65]

6 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

I think Tiger and the board need to accept this. It’s either let the PIF in or they’re gonna throw more money at top PGAT talent 

 

But the answer should be to let them do that, not to do a bad deal.  The PGA Tour is better off doing no deal than a bad deal.  The pundits who keep parroting the idea that the PGA is dead in the water if they don’t do a deal are morons.  There aren’t a line of top players just waiting to defect, and even if you do a deal, if LIV is still there, they’re still going to have the option to defect.  If most of them were going to do it, they would have done it already.  You don’t think every one of the top players hasn’t already been offered huge money by LIV?  If anything, the fact that LIV is floundering commercially and that guys like John Rahm have basically disappeared from the media landscape is probably causing some PGA players to have even less interest than they had before.  And again, if LIV is willing to continue to pay $2-3-4-500 million for players, the PGA Tour should let them do it.  Not only is it a benefit to the ‘member’ who’s leaving, they get to watch a competitor waste money.  I’m sure AMD would like nothing more than to watch NVidia light money on fire with bad investments.  What I will find more interesting is, if a deal is not done, in 3-4 years when all those LIV contracts start to expire, what do those players do and is LIV willing to continue to pay out hundreds of millions to renew them.  PIF does have very deep pockets, but even they won’t continue to just throw money away if LIV isn’t successful.  They need to earn a return at some point, and their current model doesn’t have any path to do that.  The road to success isn’t paved with investments that have a negative payoff.

[Archimedes65]

15 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

I don’t think PIF’s just open the wallet and do whatever Tiger wants them to do. Yasir could’ve ended LIV last June and given the tour a couple billion if it was as simple as that 

 

Agreed, and the fact that Jimmy Dunne and Monahan were saying what they were last June about having control over the future of LIV just shows that the framework agreement wasn’t well thought out and really wasn’t any sort of ‘agreement’ at all.  I would never have entered into that agreement without the LIV issue settled in principal and without both sides publicly admitting as much.  Yasir obviously hadn’t agreed to that, yet Dunne and Monahan spoke like it was a settled issue.  At best it was a misunderstanding, at worse the PGA Tour got worked by PIF.  I’ll say it again, the minute that the papers were signed that dismissed the lawsuits with prejudice, the Tour should have just walked away from PIF and gone back to running its own business.

Edited May 12 by Archimedes65

[bcjim]

7 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

But the answer should be to let them do that, not to do a bad deal.  The PGA Tour is better off doing no deal than a bad deal.  The pundits who keep parroting the idea that the PGA is dead in the water if they don’t do a deal are morons.  There aren’t a line of top players just waiting to defect, and even if you do a deal, if LIV is still there, they’re still going to have the option to defect.  If most of them were going to do it, they would have done it already.  You don’t think every one of the top players hasn’t already been offered huge money by LIV?  If anything, the fact that LIV is floundering commercially and that guys like John Rahm have basically disappeared from the media landscape is probably causing some PGA players to have even less interest than they had before.  And again, if LIV is willing to continue to pay $2-3-4-500 million for players, the PGA Tour should let them do it.  Not only is it a benefit to the ‘member’ who’s leaving, they get to watch a competitor waste money.  I’m sure AMD would like nothing more than to watch NVidia light money on fire with bad investments.  What I will find more interesting is, if a deal is not done, in 3-4 years when all those LIV contracts start to expire, what do those players do and is LIV willing to continue to pay out hundreds of millions to renew them.  PIF does have very deep pockets, but even they won’t continue to just throw money away if LIV isn’t successful.  They need to earn a return at some point, and their current model doesn’t have any path to do that.  The road to success isn’t paved with investments that have a negative payoff.

Agree with this analysis. 

And I don't understand the motivation of liv cheerleaders. If you are not a liv shill, what possible appeal is there? Why would any golf fan not be 100% opposed to ceding anything to liv/pif? Spell it out. What is the upside?

 

 

[scotee]

I generally distrust "undercover" professionals but this take on Rahm is probably not far off.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/what-tour-pros-really-think-about-jon-rahm?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=golfdigest&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3kpCtwzQNVHB9It42EfBta1OHVr3ALJReSwfwaxAsKt50RjJIj28_sVUE_aem_AcUon_WJZLUr8NyxnYd_NlJMpvzYDZMLtdK5LaBTqlucOCYq893oNvvJL5RMhxkmareV1gWyLcM8CbkosRmfVnJo

 

 

[bscinstnct]

9 hours ago, scotee said:

I generally distrust "undercover" professionals but this take on Rahm is probably not far off.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/what-tour-pros-really-think-about-jon-rahm?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=golfdigest&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3kpCtwzQNVHB9It42EfBta1OHVr3ALJReSwfwaxAsKt50RjJIj28_sVUE_aem_AcUon_WJZLUr8NyxnYd_NlJMpvzYDZMLtdK5LaBTqlucOCYq893oNvvJL5RMhxkmareV1gWyLcM8CbkosRmfVnJo

 

 

 

Nice share

 

Age old story

 

 

[JungleJimbo]

 

 

[NetBogey]

Any info on trades happening during the trade window? 
 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/liv-golf-news-trade-window-potential-deals/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR25vps4kKxk7IkYY_g0RKwNVjel3r2fQ1wizADun7Lc8RHnMUHnZP6cUSE_aem_AZtETGtIbHZXfAfcHb6nT7YHinBJc5nKDsVOVHXTepRwRM5M5swNnwzyp8gGs-24Zwknrco_N9knpEoslMkUn_NO#lw3oixi9qrxro3jrfu

[stinger_gc]

On 5/11/2024 at 8:24 AM, Shilgy said:

I’m not saying it will happen but they could just run it until all of the contracts run out and agree to no more poaching.

A lot of these contract go til the end of 2026. Also the no poaching clause was blocked by the DOJ

[idrive]

It's funny how everyone says pro golf is broken now but don't want to blame the guys that broke it.

 

All of these issues wouldn't be issues and golf wouldn't be broken if Phil would have won more bets than he lost and Greg didn't seek revenge with the PGAT.

[Shilgy]

43 minutes ago, stinger_gc said:

A lot of these contract go til the end of 2026. Also the no poaching clause was blocked by the DOJ

Mu understanding was the initial wave was for four years….DJ Phil Poulter and company 

2022

2023

2024

2025

I had forgotten about the DOJ ruling….

And the PGA Tour was wrong in hindsight trusting “good faith” from the PIF.

 

In response to the news, a PGA Tour spokesman provided SI with the following statement:

"The Framework Agreement sets the stage for an exciting future for professional golf that re-establishes competition at the highest levels of the sport and creates the biggest stage for everyone — players, sponsors, and fans. Based on discussions with staff at the Department of Justice, we chose to remove specific language from the Framework Agreement. While we believe the language is lawful, we also consider it unnecessary in the spirit of cooperation and because all parties are negotiating in good faith."

[CDM]

2 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

A lot of these contract go til the end of 2026. Also the no poaching clause was blocked by the DOJ

 

The DOJ blocked the no poaching clause the PGAT wanted because it violates US Anti-trust laws.  Ie: why the DOJ was looking into the PGAT before.

 

Brandel on Friday on GC said a deal needs to get done.  

 

Sadly it does....

Edited May 12 by CDM

[CDM]

8 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

 

 

 

Sad part is they are just one group of many to be blocked by the PGAT over the years.

 

Players signed a contract (sketchy one) and unless the tour gets a cut no deal.

 

Players are what make people watch, so the tours only resources are the Players so they handcuffed them so it could make Jay his 27 million a year salary 

 

Flip side we have irrational spending by a group who does not see it as a game many enjoy...they see it as a pure financial gain down the road.

 

And best yet we have the many who think nothing is fractured golf and they should do nothing...

 

..... maybe ignore it and get and play...! 

😁

 

Edited May 12 by CDM

[freeze16172002]

2 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

A lot of these contract go til the end of 2026. Also the no poaching clause was blocked by the DOJ

DOJ decision was based on an interpretation of the law, not a agreement of two parties. The DOJ decision doesn't apply if   liv agrees to no poaching 

Edited May 12 by freeze16172002