USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[kasting333]

12 minutes ago, jjtour said:

 

If the ball spins more you also bring more Left and right into play and that pure shot 280 is actually something. Right now it’s fairly easy for guys of not much actual shotmaking skill but pure speed to hit it in the air 300. That's not the way the game should be played IMO.

Higher spin brings more left and right into play? 

[Mike412]

34 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Say what you like about Brandel Chamblee, but you can't argue with his data. Chamblee and I agree that this is total nonsense when you look at the scoring average twenty years ago and today. The game is about scoring as a sport.....

I actually like Chamblee but I think he missed the fact that as the distance got longer, so did the courses to combat it. If courses wouldn’t have been lengthened I’d wager that we would be seeing significantly lower scores.

[subrew]

4 minutes ago, Z1ggy16 said:

Average Joe drives it about 220-230. You want that to go down to 200?? Golfs already hard enough for most people.

 

That's not what would happen.  And the test have shown this.  Video's linked in this very thread.

 

Softer compression balls can lose 5-7mph of ball speed at very high driver swing speeds.  But at regular average Joe swing speeds, they don't lose ball speed.  And often, have slightly lower spin characteristics, so they travel farther.

 

 

[m d g]

4 minutes ago, Z1ggy16 said:

Average Joe drives it about 220-230. You want that to go down to 200?? Golfs already hard enough for most people.

Sounds like me. Last thing I need is one of these : )

[R_Swanson]

1 minute ago, subrew said:

 

That's not what would happen.  And the test have shown this.  Video's linked in this very thread.

 

Softer compression balls can lose 5-7mph of ball speed at very high driver swing speeds.  But at regular average Joe swing speeds, they don't lose ball speed.  And often, have slightly lower spin characteristics, so they travel farther.

 

 

By this logic there isn't any reason for bifurcation.

[idrive]

Acushnet releases statement:

 

“Playing by a unified set of rules is an essential part of the game’s allure, contributes to its global understanding and appeal, and eliminates the inconsistency and instability that would come from multiple sets of equipment standards,” said David Maher, president and CEO of Acushnet. “Unification is a powerfully positive force in the game, and we believe that equipment bifurcation would be detrimental to golf’s long-term well-being. As a result, we will actively participate in this conversation with the governing bodies, worldwide professional tours, PGA Professional organizations, amateur associations and federations, and golfers, in an effort to contribute to the continued enjoyment and growth of the game.”

[James the Hogan Fan]

2 minutes ago, Mike412 said:

I actually like Chamblee but I think he missed the fact that as the distance got longer, so did the courses to combat it. If courses wouldn’t have been lengthened I’d wager that we would be seeing significantly lower scores.

 

Like the 2010 Greenbrier was something a smidge under 7000 yards and they took it to 22 under that year... before lengthening the course a few years later.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

2 minutes ago, Z1ggy16 said:

Average Joe drives it about 220-230. You want that to go down to 200?? Golfs already hard enough for most people.

Golf's hard enough? Really?

Lets go with something, oh I don't know...how about wooden headed clubs. Persimmon for example. 180 cc.

I heard the average club player handicap was just the same as it is now, near as makes no difference.

My 5 handicap ability back in the day would have me on Tour now if you listen to some on here.

Which is total nonsense because I wasn't very good, just having some fun.

[jjtour]

6 minutes ago, kasting333 said:

Higher spin brings more left and right into play? 

Do you only hit dead straight shots with no sidespin? If a ball is spinning more and on an angle then it's gonna go more sideways. 

[R_Swanson]

4 hours ago, UncleJohn’sBand said:

The more I think about it the more I think this is more an R&A problem than USGA. 
 

The TOUR isn’t moving courses around regularly because they’re “obsolete” due to distance. I bet most of us could almost cite the schedule/courses from memory. They’re basically the same every year, give it take a handful of courses per year (Trinity Forest/TPC Craig Ranch come to mind first) 
 

The USGA have their 10 anchor sites now, the greens are gonna be rolling 18 and hard as concrete and the garden gnomes will be taking up residence in the rough for the week. 
 

The R&A though……every open rota course is getting SMOKED without wind. Like, the Old Course is just begging for a 59/58 to be shot on it on a calm, firm day.
 

I have a feeling the R&A might’ve had a heavy hand in proposing these changes. Eventually they’ll run out of courses. Muirfield was great, but now they’re out. Turnberry is out. How many more changes can you make to Hoylake or Lytham and St. Anne’s to keep those guys from shooting 20 deep anytime they show up. I’m not sure you can. 
 

 

This is a good and interesting point.  Personally, I don't care if courses have to get longer, and some courses can't, etc.  

 

I do think bifurcation is a dumb solution to a problem that mostly exists in theory, not in practice.

[jjtour]

7 minutes ago, subrew said:

 

That's not what would happen.  And the test have shown this.  Video's linked in this very thread.

 

Softer compression balls can lose 5-7mph of ball speed at very high driver swing speeds.  But at regular average Joe swing speeds, they don't lose ball speed.  And often, have slightly lower spin characteristics, so they travel farther.

 

 

 

This. Here is a pretty interesting article that explains how the higher speed, higher spin player gets affected the most from a spinnier ball. Now if it's a rock but just a slightly softer rock who knows how this changes the numbers.

 

https://golf.com/gear/robot-testing-modern-equipment-balata-ball-results/

[kasting333]

2 minutes ago, jjtour said:

Do you only hit dead straight shots with no sidespin? If a ball is spinning more and on an angle then it's gonna go more sideways. 

I’m no physician but doesn’t the increased spin keep the axis from tilting more than a lower spinning ball?

[Naptime]

31 minutes ago, kasting333 said:

I’m referring to the recreational popularity of baseball… not focused just on the state of the pro game. 
 

Baseball’s mistakes should be a cautionary tale for golf. 

 

Hard to get 18 people together for anything these days.

[subrew]

6 minutes ago, R_Swanson said:

By this logic there isn't any reason for bifurcation.

 

I agree. 

 

If a 2024 Titleist Pro V1 Soft came in around 70 compression, and met the new parameters, it wouldn't reduce distance on about 95% of the golfing population.  In most of the soft vs firm tests, there seems to be a tipping point around a 100mph driver swing speed.    

 

What it may mean is balls that exceed the new parameters don't get on the conforming list.  Just like a 500cc driver isn't on the list, or a driver that exceeds the COR test.  Technically any average Joe could play a non-conforming driver.  So they could play a non-conforming ball too.

[R_Swanson]

5 minutes ago, jjtour said:

 

This. Here is a pretty interesting article that explains how the higher speed, higher spin player gets affected the most from a spinnier ball. Now if it's a rock but just a slightly softer rock who knows how this changes the numbers.

 

https://golf.com/gear/robot-testing-modern-equipment-balata-ball-results/

Great link - but it actually contradicts what @subrew posted... The average golfer lost 22 yards of distance.

Edited March 14, 2023 by R_Swanson

[subrew]

5 minutes ago, R_Swanson said:

Great link - but it actually contradicts what @subrew posted... The average golfer lost 22 yards of distance.

 

Because we're not talking about the same thing.  His link was specifically showing the difference between a much older and known high-spinning ball, and a modern ball.

 

The multiple video links I posted a few pages back compared soft compression currently available modern balls, against a Pro V1 or tour-level Bridgestone.  Modern Soft Compression balls don't usually spin high.  In fact, that is often the knock on them, is they produce low spin so they aren't as "good" around the greens.

 

The new parameters calling out a change to the ball speed test from 120mph to 127mph don't specifically say the target is a high spin number.  They aren't saying "we want a modern Ballata."  What they want is less ball speed at higher club head speeds.  That already happens in modern soft compression balls.  

 

That other golf web site that tests balls goes on and on about this topic everytime they review a softer compression ball.

[Mike412]

19 minutes ago, idrive said:

Acushnet releases statement:

 

“Playing by a unified set of rules is an essential part of the game’s allure, contributes to its global understanding and appeal, and eliminates the inconsistency and instability that would come from multiple sets of equipment standards,” said David Maher, president and CEO of Acushnet. “Unification is a powerfully positive force in the game, and we believe that equipment bifurcation would be detrimental to golf’s long-term well-being. As a result, we will actively participate in this conversation with the governing bodies, worldwide professional tours, PGA Professional organizations, amateur associations and federations, and golfers, in an effort to contribute to the continued enjoyment and growth of the game.”

Exactly what I would expect them to say…

[Titleist99]

24 minutes ago, Mike412 said:

I actually like Chamblee but I think he missed the fact that as the distance got longer, so did the courses to combat it. If courses wouldn’t have been lengthened I’d wager that we would be seeing significantly lower scores.

PGAT average 7200 yards a tournament. Some courses dip to 7000. Which was lengthened to keep the scoring under control?

 

Please don't say ANGC because they're addicted to buying land....🙂

Edited March 14, 2023 by Titleist99

[Z1ggy16]

26 minutes ago, subrew said:

 

That's not what would happen.  And the test have shown this.  Video's linked in this very thread.

 

Softer compression balls can lose 5-7mph of ball speed at very high driver swing speeds.  But at regular average Joe swing speeds, they don't lose ball speed.  And often, have slightly lower spin characteristics, so they travel farther.

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, subrew said:

 

That's not what would happen.  And the test have shown this.  Video's linked in this very thread.

 

Softer compression balls can lose 5-7mph of ball speed at very high driver swing speeds.  But at regular average Joe swing speeds, they don't lose ball speed.  And often, have slightly lower spin characteristics, so they travel farther.

 

 

What about high speed players who aren't better players? Ie the ex college baseball player who's a 12hc with 110+ club. Now he's going to lose yards, have worse scores and enjoy golf less.

 

The only ones who aren't affected are the old timers, same guys who prob think this is a good idea. 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Z1ggy16

[R_Swanson]

3 minutes ago, subrew said:

 

Because we're not talking about the same thing.  His link was specifically showing the difference between a much older and known high-spinning ball, and a modern ball.

 

The multiple video links I posted a few pages back compared soft compression currently available modern balls, against a Pro V1 or tour-level Bridgestone.  Modern Soft Compression balls don't usually spin high.  In fact, that is often the knock on them, is they produce low spin so they aren't as "good" around the greens.

 

The new parameters calling out a change to the ball speed test from 120mph to 127mph don't specifically say the target is a high spin number.  They aren't saying "we want a modern Ballata."  What they want is less ball speed at higher club head speeds.  That already happens in modern soft compression balls.  

 

That other golf web site that tests balls goes on and on about this topic everytime they review a softer compression ball.

Your TXG video?  I like TXG - but that isnt a data driven approach like Gene Parente's.  

 

If you have a study/video/article that keeps variables constant while testing, can you please share it?  Maybe I saw the incorrect video you posted as well.

[Mike412]

4 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

PGAT average 7200 yards a tournament. Some courses dip to 7000. Which was lengthened to keep the scoring under control?

Plenty have been lengthened. Most notably recently ANGC.

[ChipStrokes]

2 minutes ago, Z1ggy16 said:

What about high speed players who aren't better players? Ie the ex college baseball player who's a 12hc with 110+ club. Now he's going to lose yards, have worse scores and enjoy golf less.

[Krt22]

25 minutes ago, idrive said:

Acushnet releases statement:

 

“Playing by a unified set of rules is an essential part of the game’s allure, contributes to its global understanding and appeal, and eliminates the inconsistency and instability that would come from multiple sets of equipment standards,” said David Maher, president and CEO of Acushnet. “Unification is a powerfully positive force in the game, and we believe that equipment bifurcation would be detrimental to golf’s long-term well-being. As a result, we will actively participate in this conversation with the governing bodies, worldwide professional tours, PGA Professional organizations, amateur associations and federations, and golfers, in an effort to contribute to the continued enjoyment and growth of the game.”

There is almost zero financial incentive for Titleist to make this special tour ball given even low level pros don't buy their own balls. I wonder what happens if they simply refuse to make this special ball

[TLUBulldogGolf]

7 minutes ago, Z1ggy16 said:

 

What about high speed players who aren't better players? Ie the ex college baseball player who's a 12hc with 110+ club. Now he's going to lose yards, have worse scores and enjoy golf less.

 

The only ones who aren't affected are the old timers, same guys who prob think this is a good idea. 

 

Why? It’s a an elite level competition ball proposal..

Edited March 14, 2023 by TLUBulldogGolf

[Double Mocha Man]

2 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

There is almost zero financial incentive for Titleist to make this special tour ball given even low level pros don't buy their own balls. I wonder what happens if they simply refuse to make this special ball

 

They will no longer have the #1 ball on Tour.  I agree with them but eventually they'll make the special ball.

[Dutch1008]

2 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

PGAT average 7200 yards a tournament. Some courses dip to 7000. Which was lengthened to keep the scoring under control?

Jack won The Masters in 1986 at 6,900 yds. This year it will play over 7,500. 

 

Daly won the '95 Open Championship at 6,900 and Cam Smith won the '22 edition at 7,300. 

 

TPC Sawgrass started at 6,850 in 1982 and now plays at 7,200.  

[Double Mocha Man]

1 minute ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

Why? It’s a competition ball proposal..

 

I read somewhere this morning that they would relax the regulations on the ball most of us use and it would go farther.  We'll all be outdriving Rory...

[hollabachgt]

4 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

There is almost zero financial incentive for Titleist to make this special tour ball given even low level pros don't buy their own balls. I wonder what happens if they simply refuse to make this special ball

They’ve been doing it for decades. 

[Z1ggy16]

5 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

Why? It’s a an elite level competition ball proposal..

Responding to somebody who said all players should be forced to use the same ball. 

 

Also, soft balls spin less. So now every tour course needs to massively change the greens so players can stop their 7i that spins 5k?? This financially costs way more than what is gained. 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Z1ggy16

[Golfnutgalen]

41 minutes ago, CLEVELAND59 said:

 

 

The average swing speed of a PGA tour player is up just over 1mph over the last 15 years.  Yes, the number of players who have the capability to swing over 120mph has increased from 9 to 20 but it doesn't seem to be impacting scoring at all and the average swing speed hasn't changed significantly either.  

 

 

 

I'm guessing those are Brandel's stats? They don't seem to match up with the website numbers:

 

2007: Tour average 112.37

2022: Tour average 114.6

 

up 2.23 mph

 

How about ballspeed which is supposed to be a more accurate figure:

 

2007: Tour average 165.36

2022: Tour average 171.86

 

up 6.5 mph

 

Pretty significant if you ask me.