USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[munichop]

bifurcation already exists.

[Garydean]

I can care less, if all balls get nerfed and your that concerned about distance move up a tee box.

[James the Hogan Fan]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Ahh.  Somebody agrees with something I said a millennia ago.  Lol. That this won’t end as bifurcation.  It’s going to end as a ball rollback.   For all.   

 

Does that matter? People will hoard old balls for their added distance (maybe) but eventually they won't exist and everyone will move on.

 

Or they will make am balls (they already make Pinnacles and Top Flites) and everyone will move on.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

13 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Ahh.  Somebody agrees with something I said a millennia ago.  Lol. That this won’t end as bifurcation.  It’s going to end as a ball rollback.   For all.   

 

The wedge rule was never intended to be bifurcation. They declared all clubs produced after X date had to conform, and the OEMs complied. 

 

It may eventually go this way but they aren't declaring the current ball non-conforming, so this presupposes everyone will want the shorter flying ball or the big OEMs would just shift unilaterally (don't see that happening). Most already make a 'tour-level' ball geared towards slower swings.  

 

7 minutes ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

 

Does that matter? People will hoard old balls for their added distance (maybe) but eventually they won't exist and everyone will move on.

 

Or they will make am balls (they already make Pinnacles and Top Flites) and everyone will move on.

 

If the big players decide they will only make the MLR ball (which seems crazy to me), someone will fill that space unless demand shifts to everyone wanting this new nerfed 'Tour' ball.

Edited March 14, 2023 by TLUBulldogGolf

[ALIF]

I hope all the ball manufacturers pool their money and sue the USGA and R&A and bankrupt them!

[ahenderX]

Makes no sense to me this would only be applied to elite golfers. Just apply it to everyone and move on. All other equipment standards apply to everyone. 

[3whacker]

real hard to put the genie back in the bottle.....but technology has far outpaced the rules of the game

[Titleist99]

Say what you like about Brandel Chamblee, but you can't argue with his data. Chamblee and I agree that this is total nonsense when you look at the scoring average twenty years ago and today. The game is about scoring as a sport.....

[Naptime]

Golf isn't the only professional sport with bifurcated equipment rules etc.  No aluminum bats in MLB since baseballs go farther/faster when hit with an aluminum bat.

 

[CLEVELAND59]

I think Brandle Chamblee is generally annoying but he just made some great points.  The scoring average between 2002 and now has only changed by .4 strokes....not 4 strokes, not 1 stroke, .4 strokes.  So for all this talk about distance and its impact on the game, essentially the overall scoring hasn't changed at the professional level at all.  The courses seem to be holding up just fine.  

 

And if you think all the big hitters are making all the money, last years top 10 in driving distance averaged a rank of 80th in the Fed Ex Cup standings.  In 2002 the top 10 on the money list averaged a rank of 90th in driving distance.  

 

The average swing speed of a PGA tour player is up just over 1mph over the last 15 years.  Yes, the number of players who have the capability to swing over 120mph has increased from 9 to 20 but it doesn't seem to be impacting scoring at all and the average swing speed hasn't changed significantly either.  

 

This is a joke.  A complete and utter joke and the USGA and R&A shouldn't be managing this game at all.

 

[bekgolf]

2 minutes ago, ALIF said:

I hope all the ball manufacturers pool their money and sue the USGA and R&A and bankrupt them!

 

All they have to do is refuse to cooperate by not making the ball.  The PGA doesn't have to apply this MLR and it sounds like they won't.  Let the USGA figure out why they don't have a conforming ball when and if this MLR is implemented.

 

 

[kasting333]

5 minutes ago, Naptime said:

Golf isn't the only professional sport with bifurcated equipment rules etc.  No aluminum bats in MLB since baseballs go farther/faster when hit with an aluminum bat.

 

Baseball was also way more popular when it wasn’t bifurcated 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

1 minute ago, kasting333 said:

Baseball was also way more popular when it wasn’t bifurcated 

 

Get them back on juice while were at it..

[jjtour]

12 hours ago, aenemated said:

I STILL don't get why this even matters or is a thing at all. 

 

Baseball diamond's still 90 feet. Basketball hoop's till 10 feet. Football field's still 100 yards. 

 

Dudes aren't out there carding -100 over 4 rounds. Why does it even matter if they did?

 

This is a good analogy to use for baseball. Golf is the only sport I know of (could be wrong), that uses a non standard stadium (golf course) everywhere, ones that barely changed from when they were originally built in the 1900's, yet gave its top level players super charged equipment starting around 2000 to play these old courses. Its equal to giving MLB players a juiced up ball and aluminum bats and still playing at wrigley or fenway. Guys would be hitting home runs on basically every swing due to the advantage equipment gave them, would that make the ball park obsolete? Or would they now make the ball park bigger and bigger every year to combat it? It either makes the game so un-interesting that it becomes unplayable or you spend a ton of money to revamp the old stadiums and costs go way up. Oryou build new courses that people want to play at 9000 yards from tips cuz some tour pro wants to play there and you want to be like the tour pro. Land costs, building costs, watering, maintenance, etc. Everything goes up and cost goes to the end user. Golf is just as interesting with shorter equipment on an old classic course IMO.

 

Now what if you had a very spinny ball in everyones hands, not just PGAT. You start seeing a different game being played again not just about mashing it to the moon and having wedge in every hole. Par 5's actually turn back into par 5's not 4.5's. Par 3's dont have to be 250 to be tough, you could do a lot more with the game to peak interest. I dont think it's just cause pro's hit it far than everyone on this forum plays golf. 

 

It's not just the tech in the ball and club either. Making greens faster due to cutting them wayyyy down basically makes greens with more than 2.5% slope unpinnable. Every cool, old green from 1920 that had slope to it you cant play, so you gotta make a USGA flat green. That costs money to renovate, costs go way up and passed onto consumer. And we wonder why golf is more expensive than ever.

 

There are alot of reasons why a golf ball and equipment rollback would actually be good for the game. But apparently golf is now about how much money the manufacturers can make, end of story.

[Naptime]

Baseball was more popular when football, hockey, and basketball were less popular and the baseball games didn't take forever.  Pro golfers play a different game anyway.  Hard to lose a ball with a few thousand people in the rough.  Nice bounces off the grandstand instead of going 20 yards past into the brush.  We really don't play the same game except in our golf fantasies. 😀

[jjtour]

15 minutes ago, ALIF said:

I hope all the ball manufacturers pool their money and sue the USGA and R&A and bankrupt them!

 

It could be argued that ball manufacturers will make more money than ever due to having to make a seperate ball all together, and then not having to advertise as much and pay top pros since they play a different ball all together.

 

If you work for a ball manufacturer maybe I see your point but other than that this is a pretty evil way to look at the game. That manufacturers should just make money and thats the only thing that matters in this game.

[bladehunter]

31 minutes ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

 

Does that matter? People will hoard old balls for their added distance (maybe) but eventually they won't exist and everyone will move on.

 

Or they will make am balls (they already make Pinnacles and Top Flites) and everyone will move on.

Not really.  I just find it funny that I’m hearing what I said repeated a long time ago.  Humans are funny.  They’ll play what the pros play even if it’s way less effective.  Especially younger aspiring juniors etc.  just look at the stigma around hybrids.  It took 20 years to normalize them at the top am level. And obit then because pros started playing them in large numbers.  
 

some will hoard old balls. But peer pressure will cause them to go away in organized competition. Nobody wants to be know as the guy with the “ old cheater ball”.  Look no further than the groove rule.  You hardly ever see someone with a non conforming set of grooves in any organized tournament.  And the performance difference is about the same as this ball talk.  

[kasting333]

4 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

Get them back on juice while were at it..

I’m referring to the recreational popularity of baseball… not focused just on the state of the pro game. 
 

Baseball’s mistakes should be a cautionary tale for golf. 

[bekgolf]

Just now, jjtour said:

 

It could be argued that ball manufacturers will make more money than ever due to having to make a seperate ball all together, and then not having to advertise as much and pay top pros since they play a different ball all together.

 

If you work for a ball manufacturer maybe I see your point but other than that this is a pretty evil way to look at the game. That manufacturers should just make money and thats the only thing that matters in this game.

 

The game we get to see almost every weekend is made possible by sponsors.  Ball manufacturers are one of the sponsors and they are in it for the money.  Their money pays pros and helps pay for network coverage.

[Mirsir69]

4 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

 

The announcers could just lie.  The graphics could just lie.  We would be none the wiser watching it on TV.  Materially, what is the difference between watching a 280 yard drive versus a 320 yard drive, until you are told how far it went in each instance?  Comparatively speaking I get there might be a draw.

mAtTeRiAlLy WhAtS tHe DiFfErEnCe? The next shot you simpleton. You aren't Plato, drop the philosophical quack. 

[ksher84]

Why does it matter if they all have access to the same equipment?

I want to see the ball hit deep

[jjtour]

4 hours ago, Obee said:

 

No. That's not what he's saying -- I don't think. Affect challenge and design intent, but not par only. That's an important distinction. Some golfers will still be able to carry bunkers, but many, many more will be affected by them at the tournament level, so they become more relevant to scoring and strategy.

Look at it this way: If a golf course has 10 holes with fairway bunkers at between a 265 and 285 carry and more than half of pros carry the ball 290+, there just isn't much thinking that has to go on there -- especially for the guys who carry it 300+ For them, those bunkers don't even exist.

If you roll the ball back, you bring more "stuff" into play on many golf courses that would otherwise have to move and/or extend bunkers, which is a huge expense.

This. Good post. 

[jjtour]

5 hours ago, tungstenplug said:

It's almost as if golf holes were designed with a certain driving distance in mind, and then over time that distance increased. Would love to bring back the designers' original intentions, and test the best tournament golfers accordingly

 

 

 

If the ball spins more you also bring more Left and right into play and that pure shot 280 is actually something. Right now its fairly easy for guys of not much actual shotmaking skill but pure speed to hit it in the air 300. That's not the way the game should be played IMO.

[subrew]

19 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

All they have to do is refuse to cooperate by not making the ball.  The PGA doesn't have to apply this MLR and it sounds like they won't.  Let the USGA figure out why they don't have a conforming ball when and if this MLR is implemented.

 

 

 

They already have balls that will confirm with the new test.  The test parameters outlined a few pages back aren't other worldly.  It's likely the difference between a Pro V1 and an AVX.  Or a TP5 and a Tour Response.  Lower compression, a few mph slower off the face at very high (127mph) driver swing speeds, and a bit different spin profile.  

 

A good number of non pros are playing balls that would likely pass the new parameters.  Many playing balls softer than an AVX or Tour Response have already been playing balls that would fall well below the new parameters.  Duo Soft, Supersoft, E12, Noodle etc.

 

Every OEM ball MFG already has a ball (or multiple balls) that will fall under these new parameters.  What they will likely do, however, is fine tune them.

[kasting333]

49 minutes ago, munichop said:

bifurcation already exists.

How? 

[flushem]

https://www.golfwrx.com/709301/a-pga-tour-players-response-to-the-usgas-new-golf-ball-proposal/

IMO, this is insane.  

[Mirsir69]

There is nothing good about this proposed rule change... No one who is for the rule change swings fast enough or is good enough for it to make a difference. 

[m d g]

19 minutes ago, Naptime said:

We really don't play the same game except in our golf fantasies.

I'm pretty long in my golf fantasies...

[lefty1978]

Who cares, in the end it won't make much of a difference to most amateur golfers, like the groove rule wasn't that big of a deal.  Whatever ball is conforming, that's what I'll play.

[Z1ggy16]

32 minutes ago, ahenderX said:

Makes no sense to me this would only be applied to elite golfers. Just apply it to everyone and move on. All other equipment standards apply to everyone. 

Average Joe drives it about 220-230. You want that to go down to 200?? Golfs already hard enough for most people.