Should your club championship be played from the tips?

[longballjs]

I have always believed this. Best golfer from the longest/hardest setup. Sadly, post covid, my course has not put our black tees back out. Still don’t get the logic. We play from 6250 when we have 6850 available. 

[AzRoger]

Have to look at your club membership, not all golf clubs are loaded with plus handicappers. My home course when played from the tips is 7300 yards, if the club championship was setup at the tips hardly anyone would sign up for championship flight. The club championship is usually set up at around 6800 yards, plenty of challenge for even the plus handicappers. It might make sense as someone suggested to get rid of the tip tee boxes, hardly anyone plays them, probably used more as a vanity sales pitch for the golf course.

[sui generis]

What is the goal? Is it to identify the player with the best all around golf game or is it to give the prize to the longest hitter? 

 

Course setup is an art. Plenty of practical guidance is given in Committee Procedures.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule

 

Then at the crack of dawn when the tees are being set an experienced Committee will factor in course conditions and the weather forecast. Some Saturdays longer is better on others it's not.

[Shilgy]

8 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

 

We do have HDCP at play. Each age group, male and female, has both a Gross and Net champion.

 

Hmm, my first thought is "that's awful."

 

Again, we have a one-day affair. It's more fun than hard-nose competitive.

 

And, the majority of the people who show up are age 60 or over.

 

We have a lot of single-digit HDCPs at our club. They more often than not focus on the District Amateur / USGA events, or the US Am Tour or the Golfweek Amateur Tour.

 

Also, we are a semi-private club. In our area, the semis have rather modest club championships. Some of the private-equity clubs (most on the St. Louis side), will have both a medal play championship, and a match-play championship.

 

Clubs that have the match play usually schedule them over two weeks in late summer: You get your draw, and then you and your bracket opponent have three days or so to play your bracket-elim matches. Then, the different bracket semi-finals and championships take place on a designated Sat-Sun weekend.

 

Even guys age 60 or over can play.  All I was commenting on is what I consider to be extremely short tees being used for the various age groups.  I’m 66 and would consider 6300 to be extremely short and you have 5590 as the 60’s tees.

[deadsolid...shank]

If I remember correctly, we could set up our own groups on the first day. So you had people from mixed flights playing together. So everyone played the men’s tees at 6500. Then the second day you played within your flight, Championship flight moved back to the tips at 7,100. 
 

Better participation by letting people set their own groups the first day. 

[Santiago Golf]

If it was a 54 hole tournament with 20 players

Round 1 & 2 play from a Tip/One up combo,

tips on the even holes during round 1, odd holes during round 2

 

cut to top 8 and ties for the last 18 holes

play the final round from 12 holes from the tips

(play all the par 4s from the tips, except one play it from the forward tees)

(play all the par 3s from the tips, except one play from the forward tees)

 

This gives both a stern iron test for the players at the top of the leaderboard who might be neverous

while at the same time giving a scoreable course -the par 5s up, drivable 4, and short 3- the players 

in 7 & 8 would in theory make a run at the win

[st1800e]

Stroke play, championship flight from the back tees, yes. Other flights no, force some 8+ handicaps from tees they never play from?   But if someone in a higher flight wants to play from the back tees, let them play.  Occasionally someone comes out of the pack and wins.   Which makes for a great event, and a great story.  
 

Match play championship at all the clubs I’ve belonged to was a secondary event.  But if that’s designated event, so be it.   They’re both good.  

[SNIPERBBB]

7 hours ago, st1800e said:

Stroke play, championship flight from the back tees, yes. Other flights no, force some 8+ handicaps from tees they never play from?   But if someone in a higher flight wants to play from the back tees, let them play.  Occasionally someone comes out of the pack and wins.   Which makes for a great event, and a great story.  
 

Match play championship at all the clubs I’ve belonged to was a secondary event.  But if that’s designated event, so be it.   They’re both good.  

Our championship when we had enough scratch players to warrant flighting, the Club Championship was an Open division. Diddnt matter what your cap was. If you wanted to compete as a 20 you could. Or you could play in the divsion your cap qualifies for.

[596]

If you can't play with the big boys... Stay on the dock!!

 

Club Champion should be no handicap event played from the back tees.

 

That's why they make a Senior Club Champion.  And a Women's Club Champion. And a Junior Club Champion. 

 

 

[bluedot]

In our club championship, the tips (7000 yds) are the “championship” flight; the recognized club champion MUST play in this flight, and it is, of course, dominated by younger guys.  BUT you may also.opt to play from 6600; there is pro shop credit for winning that “flight”, but you are NOT the club champion, even if you post the lowest score.

 

Fwiw, the club championship has one of our lowest participation rates of the entire tournament year.  There just aren’t many guys, myself included, who can contend from 7000 yds, and there are probably less than 10 guys who have a legit chance to win each year, with an average age of well under 40.  Honestly, I think the total club membership pays more attention to the Member-Member, the Member-Guest, and the Net Match Play tournaments where you pick your own tees than to the club championship.  In part, that’s because of much greater participation, but also because the pool of possible winners is just much larger.

 

[cardoustie]

My club 7,000 … rated 74 / 144 from the tips, it’s a pig with small fast greens and trouble everywhere 

 

any index can play champ flight … 54 holes.  Three 75’s will win it

 

indexes 5.0 or higher can opt into B flight blues at 6600 yards … it and C and D flights are 36 holes

 

I would agree that unless you’re at elevation or a club full of tour pro’s in AZ it shouldn’t go past 7200-7300 in my opinion 

[Forged4ever]

THE Club Championship?

 

Absof*****lutely‼️

 

The other flight championships can play their championships from wherever they want.

 

What kind of question is that😂🤣😂?!?!?

 

Nuff said😊

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends⛳️

RP

Edited October 22, 2023 by Forged4ever

[isaacbm]

Every club I’ve ever been at is flighted. The championship flight plays  from the back tees, and that is the only possible flight that the Club Champion can be defined. Everyone else is more than welcome to enter and play in their flight. 
 

It’s generally the one tournament per year that is an absolute meritocracy. You play straight up against everybody else who wants to play straight up against you and the club championis determined from those players . 
 

There is also a matchplay event that has both stroke and gross. 
And generally, there is a senior event as well. Most clubs try to be as inclusive as possible, but everybody understands that the actual “club champion”  is the player at the club who can shoot the lowest gross scores from the hardest Teebox.  

Edited October 22, 2023 by isaacbm

[cardoustie]

8 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

THE Club Championship?

 

Absof*****lutely‼️

 

The other flight championships can play their championships from wherever they want.

 

What kind of question is that😂🤣😂?!?!?

 

Nuff said😊

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends⛳️

RP

Does Oakmont play at 7800 Richard ?

[Hawkeye77]

12 hours ago, Santiago Golf said:

If it was a 54 hole tournament with 20 players

Round 1 & 2 play from a Tip/One up combo,

tips on the even holes during round 1, odd holes during round 2

 

cut to top 8 and ties for the last 18 holes

play the final round from 12 holes from the tips

(play all the par 4s from the tips, except one play it from the forward tees)

(play all the par 3s from the tips, except one play from the forward tees)

 

This gives both a stern iron test for the players at the top of the leaderboard who might be neverous

while at the same time giving a scoreable course -the par 5s up, drivable 4, and short 3- the players 

in 7 & 8 would in theory make a run at the win

Or not massively overthink it and not be arbitrary at the same time. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[Santiago Golf]

3 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Or not massively overthink it. 

 

I don't get your comment

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, Santiago Golf said:

 

I don't get your comment

It’s a solution just to come up with a solution, IMO. Odds and evens, 3s, 4s and 5s is pretty arbitrary and one size fits all formula doesn’t let the course and design dictate the setup. 

[sui generis]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

It’s a solution just to come up with a solution, IMO. Odds and evens, 3s, 4s and 5s is pretty arbitrary and one size fits all formula doesn’t let the course and design dictate the setup. 

 

I agree. No legitimate Committee would be caught dead proposing a stunt like that.

[Santiago Golf]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

It’s a solution just to come up with a solution, IMO. Odds and evens, 3s, 4s and 5s is pretty arbitrary and one size fits all formula doesn’t let the course and design dictate the setup. 

 

I would disagree but I way past debating with keyboard and stranger (but I'll give some examples)

 

I huge architecture nut and massive golf sicko ... my favorite "holes" are the ones the architect never intended me to play

 

Par 3 (145 yards from the tips, 15 feet uphill from the tips, steep back to front green) it plays so much more challenging and fun from 88 yards and front pin, plays 50 feet uphill

 

Par 4 (320 yards from the tips, drivable, uphil, crazy protected green), I prefer to play it from the junior tee as a par 3 from 196 yards, plays a 2 clubs uphill

 

Par 4 (360 yards from the tips, drivable, massive punchbowl green, boomerang shape) there is a hidden tee that plays 540 yards and it can play either as a par 4 or par 5 depending where the pin is on the green 

 

 but I'm wrong you're right

[Forged4ever]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:48 AM, cardoustie said:

Does Oakmont play at 7800 Richard ?

Hey Bro, how goes it👊

 

I hope that you had a nice season!!

 

No, they Play their President's Cup, their name for their Club Championship, from the green tees, their version of the blacks, in honor of the US Opens Played there. They are set at 7250, which trust me, can feel every bit of 7800 when the course is set up to "Major Mode," though they have been set from 7080-7410yds. 

 

Bear in mind that when Hogan won in 1953🏆, he finished at 283(-5), as the track at that time was set at 6916, Par 72(Today, it's  a Par 71 for red-blue tees, while being Par 70 from the greens, which is Par for the President's Cup along with our Inter Clubs). He basically shot his wad on day one as he had a 67, then held on for dear life for the next 54 holes while the track took care of the field, including Sam, who finished Runner-Up six shots back, 289(+1). There were only 20 rounds under Par that week, with Sam & Hogan getting one apiece, Hogan had a day one 67 with Sam having a Friday round of 69. The average daily score for the week was 77.12. 

 

Also, Oakmont has the longest Par 5 in Major history, the 684yd 12th, along with the longest Par 3, the 308yd 8th(pictured below). I was in a conversation with Colin and he was moaning about the USGA bein "*ss*oles" for makin it 280yds+ being clueless regarding its history and lineage. Bein the great guy that I am😜,  I educated Colin in that Oakmont's designer, HC Fownes, with his son, WC, himself arguably the greatest single Am to ever come out of Western PA, winning every Major State Am Tourney, myriad times, most in record numbers that still stand today, along with a US Am Championship🏆. He was also one of the Walker Cup Founders along with being its first Captain(1922). Oh yah, he was also the USGA Prez in 1926 & 1927.

 

Hogan referred to the hole as "magnificent," though he only reached the green two of the four days that he Played it in '53. Sam referred to it as "infuriating, but impressive," Johnny said that it was "incredible," and even the Guy who missed the green more than he hit it in his trips around the track, Sir Nick, when asked, stated that #8 was "brilliant," lol. 

 

I told Colin of these men's opinions on the hole, then STFU. He mumbled something that I could not make out, I said "excuse me?," as he pushed his chair back, saying, "gotta go the cludgie(bathroom)," which I only knew the word from having been to Scotland a few times, lol. BTW, that was not the word that Colin mumbled when I asked, "excuse me," 😂😂🤷🏻‍♂️

 

So the Ole Man specifically stated that #8 should "test a Man's Playing ability to its limits," as he designed the hole to be of a length where there were only two potential clubs in a man/woman's bag to hit the green....a driver and/or a 3W/3M. His son, when he redesigned some holes, used that as the yardstick for #8, as did any future individuals brought in to "touch up" the track. 

 

The short answer is NO, Oakmont does not Play at 7800yds, not even close. The only track that I Played that was close to that was my Sis/Bro-in-Law's Club, Isleworth CC, which has like 18 different tees(Relax Gents, I'm just joshun ya😝), with the "Tiger" Tees bein listed at 7544yds, though we Played the "BoBs" a few times which played at 7750-7770yds.

 

The bottom line is whether you're speaking of Oakmont CC, or our Club, which has co-hosted the US Am it's last few times through the Burgh, trust me here Gents, as both of our Clubs have tested both the Greatest Male & Female Players on earth🌎, there is absolutely zero need to play games with the format by Playin one round from these tees and the next round from those tees, yada yada yada. Every time that you step onto either of our tracks, walk to those back tees or the Back of the Box(BoB) & plant your peg, before your round is complete, I promise you that you will have tested both yourself and every club in your bag.

 

You can bet your house on it Bros😉

 

Jesus, apologies for goin off the rails Brotha😝, lolol

 

Have a Great Week My Friend🍻

RP

Edited October 25, 2023 by Forged4ever

[Santiago Golf]

7 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I agree. No legitimate Committee would be caught dead proposing a stunt like that.

 

must be fun just playing the same course over and over 

[Hawkeye77]

4 minutes ago, Santiago Golf said:

 

I would disagree but I way past debating with keyboard and stranger (but I'll give some examples)

 

I huge architecture nut and massive golf sicko ... my favorite "holes" are the ones the architect never intended me to play

 

Par 3 (145 yards from the tips, 15 feet uphill from the tips, steep back to front green) it plays so much more challenging and fun from 88 yards and front pin, plays 50 feet uphill

 

Par 4 (320 yards from the tips, drivable, uphil, crazy protected green), I prefer to play it from the junior tee as a par 3 from 196 yards, plays a 2 clubs uphill

 

Par 4 (360 yards from the tips, drivable, massive punchbowl green, boomerang shape) there is a hidden tee that plays 540 yards and it can play either as a par 4 or par 5 depending where the pin is on the green 

 

 but I'm wrong you're right

LOL, proves my point! And more fun and challenging than any “formula”. 

[Santiago Golf]

Just now, Hawkeye77 said:

LOL, proves my point! And more fun and challenging than any “formula”. 

 

The formula would allow for this 

 

Par 3 from the forward tee, Par 4s from the tips, except for one from the forwards on the final day 

[Forged4ever]

23 hours ago, cardoustie said:

Does Oakmont play at 7800 Richard ?

Hey Bro, how goes it👊

 

I hope that you had a nice season!!

 

No, they Play their President's Cup, their name for their Club Championship, from the green tees, their version of the blacks, in honor of the US Opens Played there. They are set at 7250, which trust me, can feel every bit of 7800 when the course is set up to "Major Mode," lol.

 

Bear in mind that when Hogan won in 1953🏆, he finished at 283(-5), as the track at that time was set at 6916, Par 72(Today, it's  a Par 71 for red-blue tees, while being Par 70 from the greens, which is Par for the President's Cup along with our Inter Clubs). He basically shot his wad on day one as he had a 67, then held on for dear life for the next 54 holes while the track took care of the field, including Sam, who finished Runner-Up six shots back, 289(+1). There are only 20 rounds under Par that week, with Sam & Hogan getting one apiece, Hogan had a day one 67 with Sam having a Friday round of 69. The average score for the week was 77.12. 

 

Also, Oakmont has the longest Par 4 in Major history, the 684yd Par 5 12th, along with the longest Par 3, the 308yd 8th. I was in a conversation with Colin and he was moaning about the USGA bein "*ss*oles" for makin it 280yds+ being clueless regarding its history and lineage, I educated Colin in that Oakmont's designer, HC Fownes, with his son, himself arguably the greatest single Am to ever come out of Western PA, winning every Major State Am Tourney, myriad times, most in record numbers that still stand today, along with a US Am Championship🏆, while also being one of the Walker Cup Founders and its first Captain(1922). Oh yah, he was also the USGA Prez in 1926 & 1927.

 

So the Ole Man specifically stated that #8 should "test a Man's Playing ability and take him to his limits," as he also designed the hole to be of a length where there were only two potential clubs in a man/woman's bag to hit the green....a driver and/or a 3W/3M.

 

Apologies as I posted the original post above this however I double posted this and can't delete it, lol

 

Jesus, I've been a member a decade plus and I'm still clueless, lol😜🤪

 

Have a Great Week My Friends👊

RP

Edited October 23, 2023 by Forged4ever

[sui generis]

21 minutes ago, Santiago Golf said:

 

must be fun just playing the same course over and over 

I do think this topic concerns course set up for the club championship not the Friday evening couples league.

[Forged4ever]

32 minutes ago, Santiago Golf said:

 

must be fun just playing the same course over and over 

Hey Brotha, how goes it👊

 

I Played the same course over and over for 40+ years prior to my strokes and health issues, winning four(4) Championships across those four+ decades(all of my Championships were 72-hole Tourneys prior to them goin to 54, then 36. I'm a dinosaur🦖, lol). Only speaking for myself, it was a friggin blast and I wouldn't change a thing if I could, though I would wanna redo on a 5i into #12 in 1995, as that woulda been a hell of a threepeat😂🤣😂🤷🏻‍♂️

 

I know two of my close Buds over at Oakmont, one bein a 40+ year Member & 5-Time President Cup Champion, the other a mere pup with 26+ years and two(2) Cups, have also had a blast and neither has ever complained of boredom to me🤷🏻‍♂️

I guess that it's up to the individual though at both of our Clubs, that's all spelled out up front, when someone sits with the membership committee, and if the applicant is a serious golfer(he can be any cap) or a Player, then one of us will go upstairs, introduce ourselves and bring him down to the card room, where, depending on his cap or interest level, we'll drop him at one of the tables, where he can relax, ask whatever questions that he might have, while enjoying a pop or two🍻. This is obviously not the routine if the prospective member already is familiar with our Club, either by being friends with a current member or prior research. 

 

All the Best. I hope that you had a great season My Friend👊

RP

Edited October 22, 2023 by Forged4ever

[Forged4ever]

47 minutes ago, Santiago Golf said:

 

I would disagree but I way past debating with keyboard and stranger (but I'll give some examples)

 

I huge architecture nut and massive golf sicko ... my favorite "holes" are the ones the architect never intended me to play

 

Par 3 (145 yards from the tips, 15 feet uphill from the tips, steep back to front green) it plays so much more challenging and fun from 88 yards and front pin, plays 50 feet uphill

 

Par 4 (320 yards from the tips, drivable, uphil, crazy protected green), I prefer to play it from the junior tee as a par 3 from 196 yards, plays a 2 clubs uphill

 

Par 4 (360 yards from the tips, drivable, massive punchbowl green, boomerang shape) there is a hidden tee that plays 540 yards and it can play either as a par 4 or par 5 depending where the pin is on the green 

 

 but I'm wrong you're right

Sounds like a great track to have those options available. We have some sh**s 'n giggles Tourneys where We'll switch up the tees/Par and rotate the tees, depending on cap, and they are a lot of fun. Then we have our July 4th event, referred as the "RWB" event, ie., "red white & blue" event, where by were Play 6 holes from the reds, 6 from the whites along with 6 from the blues. The blacks sit dormant that day.

 

Have a Great Week Brotha👊

RP

Edited October 22, 2023 by Forged4ever

[nsxguy]

41 minutes ago, Santiago Golf said:

 

The formula would allow for this 

 

Par 3 from the forward tee, Par 4s from the tips, except for one from the forwards on the final day 

 

No reason to get so snippy. No offense my friend but this thread is about playing the "Club Championship", not how to have fun playing golf whichever way you fancy on any given day.

 

And Sui is absolutely correct. NO committee in its right mind would play a CC in that manner.

 

There's a reason why it's played the same way the course is set up for the rest of the year.

 

Else why not just hold it at the local putt-putt golf ? That's different.

[Shilgy]

6 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Our championship when we had enough scratch players to warrant flighting, the Club Championship was an Open division. Diddnt matter what your cap was. If you wanted to compete as a 20 you could. Or you could play in the divsion your cap qualifies for.

We cap championship flight at 9.0 index.

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

THE Club Championship?

 

Absof*****lutely‼️

 

The other flight championships can play their championships from wherever they want.

 

What kind of question is that😂🤣😂?!?!?

 

Nuff said😊

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends⛳️

RP

I always like your subtle takes Richard.🤣