Thorbjorn Olsen Arrested on Flight

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  • xxioxxio Members Posts: 5,726 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    If there really was a victim, how would we feel if there wer no charges brought up at all.

    Yes to due process, for both alleged violator and alleged victim.

    As long as alleged is consistently and always used by the reporting agencies it is fair.
    We should be smart enough to discern that.
    We are not 12 year olds behind keyboards.

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,616 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @xxio said:
    If there really was a victim, how would we feel if there wer no charges brought up at all.

    Yes to due process, for both alleged violator and alleged victim.

    As long as alleged is consistently and always used by the reporting agencies it is fair.
    We should be smart enough to discern that.
    We are not 12 year olds behind keyboards.

    I don’t think anyone has suggested that no charges be brought. Just that you cannot exclaim guilt much less sentences when literally no description of actions , or victim has been identified. This could range from rape to a fishing expedition to see what will hook up. . We do not know.

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  • golfandfishinggolfandfishing Members Posts: 3,640 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    “or victim has been identified”

    Are the victims in criminal sexual assault cases usually identified?

  • xxioxxio Members Posts: 5,726 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 11, 2019 6:09am #365

    I would think again we are smart enough that once alleged is used it should be safe enough to cover a lot of things.

    I don't think there is a crime that is called "fondling of ****", that the actual crime would be under sexual assault. Cases as filed do not put descriptions in the title.

    It is safer to use alleged sexual assualt than to use descriptions, when these yet have to be proven by evidence or in a court of law. It might be more dangerous for media. I would think they are just using what is factually charged. Maybe it should be the law and law enforcement that should change the information or charges filed.

  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,403 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 11, 2019 6:13am #366

    @golfandfishing said:
    “or victim has been identified”

    Are the victims in criminal sexual assault cases usually identified?

    Agreed. The victim is not the one on trial here. Absolutely abhorrent to think he/she needs to be identified in order to press charges. Let's be real, if tjebpolice were called and an arrest was made, something nefarious likely occured. The police don't just arrest folks on completely baseless claims otherwise they open themselves up to potential civil suits. The news story occured after the fact so we can't just blame social media. The fact the thorbjorn hasn't made a single statement is actually very telling, likely in full on damage control

  • brew4eaglebrew4eagle VAMembers Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @brew4eagle said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @Bingo1976 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @chigolfer1 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @chigolfer1 said:

    @golfandfishing said:
    So you say low, I say none. Why argue? Are you under the impression that there is some sort of penalty for me if he does 1 day in jail and you win a prize of some variety?

    @chigolfer1 said:

    @golfandfishing said:
    What would you like to wager?

    @chigolfer1 said:

    @golfandfishing said:
    No way he does any time in a jail cell. Maybe, maybe a very slight chance of a brief home sentence. There is zero chance he goes to prison. None.

    Not sure if you're being serious or not, or how you could think this. He's being charged with sexual assault. Of course he could do jail time if he is convicted of something in that realm unless I don't understand something about the charges? Now, I'm not predicting that but I don't see how there isn't a chance greater than 0% that it could happen.

    I literally wrote I'm not predicting it. That doesn't mean I think there's a 0% chance, lol .

    Because there's a huge difference between someone saying 0% chance of something happening and there being a chance of it happening, which is why I asked if you knew something about the legal system, etc.

    Of course you know when someone says “ none “ that’s hyperbole. There’s no such thing as 100 or 0% when talking criminal charges. So ? Also a large difference between being charged with something and it making it to trial.

    That's exactly my point that there's no such thing as 0%.> @Mick Douglas said:

    Field out for Switzerland the week after his court case and he's not in the field, going to be a stressful time right now we have to assume practicing golf won't be a high priority and if found guilty or not I doubt he'll play before Wentworth or Dunhill the following week.

    Suspended

    But you knew that 0 is word used for very unlikely. Right ?

    That being said. In a court in the UK. He’s likely screwed. He’d fare far better in the states. In my humble opinion.

    He’s not the victim here. And I say that as a fan of his.

    I didn’t say he was a victim. I’m just saying we don’t know any facts about the case. Not enough To even claim there is a victim. I just prefer to make an opinion based on info. Not headlines.

    If an arrest was made for sexual assault charges, then by definition there is a victim.

    Alleged victim.

    You still have to prove the case yes ?

    This is the problem with today’s social media world. It’s guilty until proven innocent.

    Yes, the case still goes to trial. But, once an investigation is opened the case will have a "victim" and a "subject", by definition. You can throw the adjective "alleged" on both if you want, but it is obviously implied. All I'm saying is you can't have such charges without a victim, period.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,616 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 11, 2019 12:35pm #368

    @brew4eagle said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @brew4eagle said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @Bingo1976 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @chigolfer1 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @chigolfer1 said:

    @golfandfishing said:
    So you say low, I say none. Why argue? Are you under the impression that there is some sort of penalty for me if he does 1 day in jail and you win a prize of some variety?

    @chigolfer1 said:

    @golfandfishing said:
    What would you like to wager?

    @chigolfer1 said:

    @golfandfishing said:
    No way he does any time in a jail cell. Maybe, maybe a very slight chance of a brief home sentence. There is zero chance he goes to prison. None.

    Not sure if you're being serious or not, or how you could think this. He's being charged with sexual assault. Of course he could do jail time if he is convicted of something in that realm unless I don't understand something about the charges? Now, I'm not predicting that but I don't see how there isn't a chance greater than 0% that it could happen.

    I literally wrote I'm not predicting it. That doesn't mean I think there's a 0% chance, lol .

    Because there's a huge difference between someone saying 0% chance of something happening and there being a chance of it happening, which is why I asked if you knew something about the legal system, etc.

    Of course you know when someone says “ none “ that’s hyperbole. There’s no such thing as 100 or 0% when talking criminal charges. So ? Also a large difference between being charged with something and it making it to trial.

    That's exactly my point that there's no such thing as 0%.> @Mick Douglas said:

    Field out for Switzerland the week after his court case and he's not in the field, going to be a stressful time right now we have to assume practicing golf won't be a high priority and if found guilty or not I doubt he'll play before Wentworth or Dunhill the following week.

    Suspended

    But you knew that 0 is word used for very unlikely. Right ?

    That being said. In a court in the UK. He’s likely screwed. He’d fare far better in the states. In my humble opinion.

    He’s not the victim here. And I say that as a fan of his.

    I didn’t say he was a victim. I’m just saying we don’t know any facts about the case. Not enough To even claim there is a victim. I just prefer to make an opinion based on info. Not headlines.

    If an arrest was made for sexual assault charges, then by definition there is a victim.

    Alleged victim.

    You still have to prove the case yes ?

    This is the problem with today’s social media world. It’s guilty until proven innocent.

    Yes, the case still goes to trial. But, once an investigation is opened the case will have a "victim" and a "subject", by definition. You can throw the adjective "alleged" on both if you want, but it is obviously implied. All I'm saying is you can't have such charges without a victim, period.

    Sure you can. There have been many cases of false allegations and cases thrown out because of a lack of victim. As well as people convicted and sent to prison without a real victim. You’re checking off boxes , I’m talking about real victims.

    And I’m not saying there isn’t one here. I’m just saying we don’t know. Can not possibly know either way on the info provided.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,616 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @golfandfishing said:
    “or victim has been identified”

    Are the victims in criminal sexual assault cases usually identified?

    They don’t have to be identified by name to anyone except the accused. But it is customary to hear some detail as to whether it was an acquaintance or stranger and the nature of the alleged assault. There’s nearly no context given. Just “ drunk guy , rowdy on a plane “. You could draw dots to anything from that.

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  • xxioxxio Members Posts: 5,726 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe in the case file, but not in a newsfeed 8-10hours after the incident.
    Once the preliminary investigation is completed and the prosecutor deems there is enough evidence then the evidence/facts will come to light.
    In the meantime to satisfy curiosity why an individual was met by police when the plane landed and was brought in for questioning, alleged is more than sufficient.

    Unless something has changed in law enforcement, "alleged" still clearly means innocent until proven guilty to anyone above 6th grade.

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,616 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @xxio said:
    Maybe in the case file, but not in a newsfeed 8-10hours after the incident.
    Once the preliminary investigation is completed and the prosecutor deems there is enough evidence then the evidence/facts will come to light.
    In the meantime to satisfy curiosity why an individual was met by police when the plane landed and was brought in for questioning, alleged is more than sufficient.

    Unless something has changed in law enforcement, "alleged" still clearly means innocent until proven guilty to anyone above 6th grade.

    I’m not sure what your point is ? Nobody here has said allegedly isn’t good enough. It just isn't being used.
    When you start throwing out prison sentence predictions it’s easy to assume that “ allegedly “ has been throw out the window.

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  • brew4eaglebrew4eagle VAMembers Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I didn’t say he was a victim. I’m just saying we don’t know any facts about the case. Not enough To even claim there is a victim. I just prefer to make an opinion based on info. Not headlines.

    If an arrest was made for sexual assault charges, then by definition there is a victim.

    Alleged victim.

    You still have to prove the case yes ?

    This is the problem with today’s social media world. It’s guilty until proven innocent.

    Yes, the case still goes to trial. But, once an investigation is opened the case will have a "victim" and a "subject", by definition. You can throw the adjective "alleged" on both if you want, but it is obviously implied. All I'm saying is you can't have such charges without a victim, period.

    Sure you can. There have been many cases of false allegations and cases thrown out because of a lack of victim. As well as people convicted and sent to prison without a real victim. You’re checking off boxes , I’m talking about real victims.

    And I’m not saying there isn’t one here. I’m just saying we don’t know. Can not possibly know either way on the info provided.

    I'll reiterate what I'm saying one more time.
    Above it was suggested that there aren't enough facts to even claim there is a victim. This is absolutely false. Again, in order for sexual assault charges to be levied, there must be a victim. Of course the victim (and subject) in any case are 'alleged' until a trial is concluded and a verdict is reached. That's all.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,616 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 11, 2019 3:42pm #373

    @brew4eagle said:

    I didn’t say he was a victim. I’m just saying we don’t know any facts about the case. Not enough To even claim there is a victim. I just prefer to make an opinion based on info. Not headlines.

    If an arrest was made for sexual assault charges, then by definition there is a victim.

    Alleged victim.

    You still have to prove the case yes ?

    This is the problem with today’s social media world. It’s guilty until proven innocent.

    Yes, the case still goes to trial. But, once an investigation is opened the case will have a "victim" and a "subject", by definition. You can throw the adjective "alleged" on both if you want, but it is obviously implied. All I'm saying is you can't have such charges without a victim, period.

    Sure you can. There have been many cases of false allegations and cases thrown out because of a lack of victim. As well as people convicted and sent to prison without a real victim. You’re checking off boxes , I’m talking about real victims.

    And I’m not saying there isn’t one here. I’m just saying we don’t know. Can not possibly know either way on the info provided.

    I'll reiterate what I'm saying one more time.
    Above it was suggested that there aren't enough facts to even claim there is a victim. This is absolutely false. Again, in order for sexual assault charges to be levied, there must be a victim. Of course the victim (and subject) in any case are 'alleged' until a trial is concluded and a verdict is reached. That's all.

    I understand what you’re saying. That’s why I said “ checking boxes”. Sure on paper there is a victim.thats a box to check. But. Exclaiming that there is a proven victim now before any evidence is known and any conviction is made is essentially damning the accused based on taking one word over another. And that’s not how it’s supposed to work.

    So for prosecutorial procedure. Sure that victim box must be checked. But. Without irrefutable proof or a jury conviction that victim can’t be certified truly.

    I truly understand the victim side of this debate. I’ve been one , I’ve also been the adult representative/advocate of one in court.
    But with much more proof and info than we have in this case now.

    Sure. Proof is likely to emerge if it exists. But until then convicting him or crowning a victim seems useless and wrong. At least to me. Doesn’t mean we have to defend or praise the guy either. Just can’t hang him for sexual assault until I know much more than what we have now.

    Edited to say. I think you’re loosely insinuating that a prosecutor won’t bring charges unless it’s a clear cut and dried case. Meaning if you’re charged with this it’s a given that you’re guilty. Just not even close to reality. Never has been. And it’s worse now with today’s tech age. Pressure to believe every story told. Loads of politics involved when it’s a high profile person. Which is why I wonder what the proof is ? .

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  • brew4eaglebrew4eagle VAMembers Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    :Edited to say. I think you’re loosely insinuating that a prosecutor won’t bring charges unless it’s a clear cut and dried case. Meaning if you’re charged with this it’s a given that you’re guilty. Just not even close to reality. Never has been. And it’s worse now with today’s tech age. Pressure to believe every story told. Loads of politics involved when it’s a high profile person. Which is why I wonder what the proof is ? ."
    Not at all what I was insinuating.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,616 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 11, 2019 4:37pm #375

    @brew4eagle said:
    :Edited to say. I think you’re loosely insinuating that a prosecutor won’t bring charges unless it’s a clear cut and dried case. Meaning if you’re charged with this it’s a given that you’re guilty. Just not even close to reality. Never has been. And it’s worse now with today’s tech age. Pressure to believe every story told. Loads of politics involved when it’s a high profile person. Which is why I wonder what the proof is ? ."
    Not at all what I was insinuating.

    Not a problem. My fault for reading that into it.

    But that leaves me throughly puzzled as to how you can have a victim without irrefutable proof or a conviction. ( we have neither ). I think what you mean to say is plaintiff. Not victim.
    If there are numerous witnesses or irrefutable proof of an actual sexual assault here , in close quarters with all those people , I’m puzzled as to how or why they let it go on more than 20 seconds.( which I’d agree is too long ) What I’m saying is I need much more info for this to add up to anything more than a drunk idiot on a plane. The small parts we have make it hard to connect the dots from drunk guy peeing on a plane to a sexual assault.

    Please explain to me how you convict base on what we know ? That conviction will include identifying a clear victim.

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  • bubbagumpbubbagump SLDR $5000 Challenge The EmpireMembers Posts: 5,591 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 11, 2019 5:34pm #376

    @bladehunter said:

    ** Not a problem. My fault for reading that into it. **

    95% of the deviation of this thread, is explained by that sentence. If you kept that super literal viewpoint of "semantics" that you have on the definition of law enforcement, and not ironically turn on a dime now and be super particular, I think youd follow what brew is saying.

    What brew is basically saying to you, is in criminal charges/investigation (what this is) from the investigative standpoint you have the accused/suspect, and the victim. Neither of this means its true, indicates guilty/innocent or anything its just the two parties involved, and all you are gathering from that would be reading into it way too far. IF it goes all the way to court, then typically its the prosecution/plaintiff against the defendant/accused/suspect, and thats where you can satisfy your need of knowing if it was a true victim or not. Its truly not as difficult and painful as you are making it out to be.

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  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 27,189 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @brew4eagle said:
    :Edited to say. I think you’re loosely insinuating that a prosecutor won’t bring charges unless it’s a clear cut and dried case. Meaning if you’re charged with this it’s a given that you’re guilty. Just not even close to reality. Never has been. And it’s worse now with today’s tech age. Pressure to believe every story told. Loads of politics involved when it’s a high profile person. Which is why I wonder what the proof is ? ."
    Not at all what I was insinuating.

    Not a problem. My fault for reading that into it.

    But that leaves me throughly puzzled as to how you can have a victim without irrefutable proof or a conviction. ( we have neither ). I think what you mean to say is plaintiff. Not victim.
    If there are numerous witnesses or irrefutable proof of an actual sexual assault here , in close quarters with all those people , I’m puzzled as to how or why they let it go on more than 20 seconds.( which I’d agree is too long ) What I’m saying is I need much more info for this to add up to anything more than a drunk idiot on a plane. The small parts we have make it hard to connect the dots from drunk guy peeing on a plane to a sexual assault.

    Please explain to me how you convict base on what we know ? That conviction will include identifying a clear victim.

    Blade, first, victims of sexual assault are not identified.

    Second, the guy was arrested and charged with sexual assault. The degree of the alleged assault is not specified. If he grabbed or touched a woman inappropriately, even for a moment, would that qualify? I don’t know. But, assuming the arresting officers did their jobs, they did not just have a woman say, “he assaulted me”, and then charge him.

    She would be interviewed, have made an official statement to law enforcement detailing exactly what he did, and other witnesses interviewed.

    I doubt the person would want to spend all this time and realize that she would be called into court to be cross examined, if he didn’t do squat. Who knows and he is innocent until convicted, but I don’t see why anyone would be suspicious of her charge given he was reportedly acting well outside the norm of civilized society.

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,616 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bscinstnct said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @brew4eagle said:
    :Edited to say. I think you’re loosely insinuating that a prosecutor won’t bring charges unless it’s a clear cut and dried case. Meaning if you’re charged with this it’s a given that you’re guilty. Just not even close to reality. Never has been. And it’s worse now with today’s tech age. Pressure to believe every story told. Loads of politics involved when it’s a high profile person. Which is why I wonder what the proof is ? ."
    Not at all what I was insinuating.

    Not a problem. My fault for reading that into it.

    But that leaves me throughly puzzled as to how you can have a victim without irrefutable proof or a conviction. ( we have neither ). I think what you mean to say is plaintiff. Not victim.
    If there are numerous witnesses or irrefutable proof of an actual sexual assault here , in close quarters with all those people , I’m puzzled as to how or why they let it go on more than 20 seconds.( which I’d agree is too long ) What I’m saying is I need much more info for this to add up to anything more than a drunk idiot on a plane. The small parts we have make it hard to connect the dots from drunk guy peeing on a plane to a sexual assault.

    Please explain to me how you convict base on what we know ? That conviction will include identifying a clear victim.

    Blade, first, victims of sexual assault are not identified.

    Second, the guy was arrested and charged with sexual assault. The degree of the alleged assault is not specified. If he grabbed or touched a woman inappropriately, even for a moment, would that qualify? I don’t know. But, assuming the arresting officers did their jobs, they did not just have a woman say, “he assaulted me”, and then charge him.

    She would be interviewed, have made an official statement to law enforcement detailing exactly what he did, and other witnesses interviewed.

    I doubt the person would want to spend all this time and realize that she would be called into court to be cross examined, if he didn’t do squat. Who knows and he is innocent until convicted, but I don’t see why anyone would be suspicious of her charge given he was reportedly acting well outside the norm of civilized society.

    First - people are fixated on me even mentioning that. I in no way said that the person should be. Just surprised that it hadn’t leaked. I even said they only had to identify the person to the accused. Maybe not even that in the UK. I have no idea. So let’s squash that bit of misunderstood spin now.

    I’m not suspicious of the charge. Just of the preemptive conviction here , and in broader terms , the entire system.

    No offense. But in a perfect world. I get and know exactly what you’re saying. But I also know that what your saying equals a slam dunk , and they are rare. If it is indeed a slam dunk I’d expect to hear of a plea in exchange for admission ,pretty soon.

    It’s that idea of trusting that the system is in perfect working order that is quite dangerous. Question everything, and what passes , passes... and what doesn’t equals an improvement.

    I’m only pointing out that most here are assuming the system to be without flaw and above question. Otherwise there’s no reason to assume a conviction based on what little we now know. I might even agree that it’s likey he gets convicted. But. My issue is that people assume guilt with no real info. And that is exactly what gets people hooked up with wrongful convictions. Surely you can see what I’m saying ?

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,616 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 11, 2019 7:03pm #379

    @bubbagump said:

    @bladehunter said:

    ** Not a problem. My fault for reading that into it. **

    95% of the deviation of this thread, is explained by that sentence. If you kept that super literal viewpoint of "semantics" that you have on the definition of law enforcement, and not ironically turn on a dime now and be super particular, I think youd follow what brew is saying.

    What brew is basically saying to you, is in criminal charges/investigation (what this is) from the investigative standpoint you have the accused/suspect, and the victim. Neither of this means its true, indicates guilty/innocent or anything its just the two parties involved, and all you are gathering from that would be reading into it way too far. IF it goes all the way to court, then typically its the prosecution/plaintiff against the defendant/accused/suspect, and thats where you can satisfy your need of knowing if it was a true victim or not. Its truly not as difficult and painful as you are making it out to be.

    Lol. Fine with me.

    Hang em. Worry about the details later. And farther down the bowl we go.

    Edit. Your description above has literally nothing to do with what that vein of argument is about or started from. Brew refuted my assertion that there was no proven victim yet. By saying one was indeed labeled as such on the filings. I conceded yes that was true. But explained why I disagree in real terms. Victim to me indicates a crime that has been proven. Which we don’t have ( as far as we know ). It just seems impossible to me to at the same time assume innocence until proven guilt and also assign “ victim “ to the person making the claim. One idea assumes proof to be needed and the other assumes no proof is needed. How does that get reconciled in your mind ?

    Now let me add that I’m able to set aside the persons feeling in this. I’m purely thinking in black and white terms. Minus a smoking gun. (You give me that and my mind will go to harsh sentence on A dime) the two ideas just conflict for me. Any hurt a person has is obviously terrible and is deserving of a resolution to take that into account.

    Real talk. Not me just trying to argue.

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  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 27,189 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @bscinstnct said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @brew4eagle said:
    :Edited to say. I think you’re loosely insinuating that a prosecutor won’t bring charges unless it’s a clear cut and dried case. Meaning if you’re charged with this it’s a given that you’re guilty. Just not even close to reality. Never has been. And it’s worse now with today’s tech age. Pressure to believe every story told. Loads of politics involved when it’s a high profile person. Which is why I wonder what the proof is ? ."
    Not at all what I was insinuating.

    Not a problem. My fault for reading that into it.

    But that leaves me throughly puzzled as to how you can have a victim without irrefutable proof or a conviction. ( we have neither ). I think what you mean to say is plaintiff. Not victim.
    If there are numerous witnesses or irrefutable proof of an actual sexual assault here , in close quarters with all those people , I’m puzzled as to how or why they let it go on more than 20 seconds.( which I’d agree is too long ) What I’m saying is I need much more info for this to add up to anything more than a drunk idiot on a plane. The small parts we have make it hard to connect the dots from drunk guy peeing on a plane to a sexual assault.

    Please explain to me how you convict base on what we know ? That conviction will include identifying a clear victim.

    Blade, first, victims of sexual assault are not identified.

    Second, the guy was arrested and charged with sexual assault. The degree of the alleged assault is not specified. If he grabbed or touched a woman inappropriately, even for a moment, would that qualify? I don’t know. But, assuming the arresting officers did their jobs, they did not just have a woman say, “he assaulted me”, and then charge him.

    She would be interviewed, have made an official statement to law enforcement detailing exactly what he did, and other witnesses interviewed.

    I doubt the person would want to spend all this time and realize that she would be called into court to be cross examined, if he didn’t do squat. Who knows and he is innocent until convicted, but I don’t see why anyone would be suspicious of her charge given he was reportedly acting well outside the norm of civilized society.

    First - people are fixated on me even mentioning that. I in no way said that the person should be. Just surprised that it hadn’t leaked. I even said they only had to identify the person to the accused. Maybe not even that in the UK. I have no idea. So let’s squash that bit of misunderstood spin now.

    I’m not suspicious of the charge. Just of the preemptive conviction here , and in broader terms , the entire system.

    No offense. But in a perfect world. I get and know exactly what you’re saying. But I also know that what your saying equals a slam dunk , and they are rare. If it is indeed a slam dunk I’d expect to hear of a plea in exchange for admission ,pretty soon.

    It’s that idea of trusting that the system is in perfect working order that is quite dangerous. Question everything, and what passes , passes... and what doesn’t equals an improvement.

    I’m only pointing out that most here are assuming the system to be without flaw and above question. Otherwise there’s no reason to assume a conviction based on what little we now know. I might even agree that it’s likey he gets convicted. But. My issue is that people assume guilt with no real info. And that is exactly what gets people hooked up with wrongful convictions. Surely you can see what I’m saying ?

    Yes, I agree that we should not assume he is guilty of anything. Fortunately, I assume he will have access to excellent legal representation . And we all know how that can greatly influence the outcome in the legal system. But that’s a whole other argument ; )

  • xxioxxio Members Posts: 5,726 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bubbagump said:

    @bladehunter said:

    ** Not a problem. My fault for reading that into it. **

    95% of the deviation of this thread, is explained by that sentence. If you kept that super literal viewpoint of "semantics" that you have on the definition of law enforcement, and not ironically turn on a dime now and be super particular, I think youd follow what brew is saying.

    What brew is basically saying to you, is in criminal charges/investigation (what this is) from the investigative standpoint you have the accused/suspect, and the victim. Neither of this means its true, indicates guilty/innocent or anything its just the two parties involved, and all you are gathering from that would be reading into it way too far. IF it goes all the way to court, then typically its the prosecution/plaintiff against the defendant/accused/suspect, and thats where you can satisfy your need of knowing if it was a true victim or not. Its truly not as difficult and painful as you are making it out to be.

    Exactly my point earlier. In my inclusive vs exclusive definition post. You cannot pick and choose.

    To make it clearer as well, I am saying alleged is enough without having to put the description of the entire incident, for now.

    Basically asking for the police report to be put into a news feed is impractical, the use of "alleged" protects all parties involved until the facts come up in court.

  • bubbagumpbubbagump SLDR $5000 Challenge The EmpireMembers Posts: 5,591 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 11, 2019 9:23pm #382

    @xxio said:

    Exactly my point earlier. In my inclusive vs exclusive definition post. You cannot pick and choose.

    To make it clearer as well, I am saying alleged is enough without having to put the description of the entire incident, for now.

    Basically asking for the police report to be put into a news feed is impractical, the use of "alleged" protects all parties involved until the facts come up in court.

    Right on. For about 99% of the time/people its a pretty cut and dry, easy to understand concept. Dudes been arrested and charged by authorities based on info obtained from the investigation, which means there are 2 parties to this, and the legal process will play out to determine guilt/innocence etc. He has some good coin so I assume he'll have excellent representation.

    Using common, correct terminology of the process (alleged, victim, suspect etc) has nothing to do with assigning guilt, saying he did it, further down the bowl, not worrying about details etc.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,616 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Lol. Except the word alleged has rarely been used in this thread. You two are some of the original ones to bring that up. Whether you realize that or not I don’t know.

    Question regarding the investigation that led to arrest. I understood him to be arrested upon landing of the plane. Was that for the peeing incident ? And later the sexual assault charges .... or all at once. If not at once how quick were the sexual assault charges lodged ? What I’m getting at is you say it’s not “ one person said and then he was arrested , there was an investigation that led to charges “. Can this be done in 24 hours or less ?

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,616 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bubbagump said:

    @xxio said:

    Exactly my point earlier. In my inclusive vs exclusive definition post. You cannot pick and choose.

    To make it clearer as well, I am saying alleged is enough without having to put the description of the entire incident, for now.

    Basically asking for the police report to be put into a news feed is impractical, the use of "alleged" protects all parties involved until the facts come up in court.

    Right on. For about 99% of the time/people its a pretty cut and dry, easy to understand concept. Dudes been arrested and charged by authorities based on info obtained from the investigation, which means there are 2 parties to this, and the legal process will play out to determine guilt/innocence etc. He has some good coin so I assume he'll have excellent representation.

    Using common, correct terminology of the process (alleged, victim, suspect etc) has nothing to do with assigning guilt, saying he did it, further down the bowl, not worrying about details etc.

    Lol. Again. It’s not that I don’t understand the concept in practice. It’s that I question it . The two do not have to be linked. I can question the ideas and still know how it works. Alleged does smooth out some kinks. But when it’s talked about on message boards that term is rarely used and judging by some posts it certainly isn’t universally understood.

    And lastly. His ability to pay for counsel has zero to do with how the case should be handled. So why mention that ?

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  • Terry GoldTerry Gold Members Posts: 501 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not a lawyer but i play one on the internet.
    By the way, I can also fix Jordan Spieth.
    Pathetic.

  • bspnbspn Members Posts: 134 ✭✭✭

    To all those saying there's no victim, tell that to the poor innocent carpet he pissed all over. Sorry, allegedly pissed all over.

  • Walter SobchakWalter Sobchak Members Posts: 92 ✭✭✭

    @bspn said:
    To all those saying there's no victim, tell that to the poor innocent carpet he pissed all over. Sorry, allegedly pissed all over.

    ...rug really tied the plane together

  • brew4eaglebrew4eagle VAMembers Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bubbagump said:

    @bladehunter said:

    ** Not a problem. My fault for reading that into it. **

    95% of the deviation of this thread, is explained by that sentence. If you kept that super literal viewpoint of "semantics" that you have on the definition of law enforcement, and not ironically turn on a dime now and be super particular, I think youd follow what brew is saying.

    What brew is basically saying to you, is in criminal charges/investigation (what this is) from the investigative standpoint you have the accused/suspect, and the victim. Neither of this means its true, indicates guilty/innocent or anything its just the two parties involved, and all you are gathering from that would be reading into it way too far. IF it goes all the way to court, then typically its the prosecution/plaintiff against the defendant/accused/suspect, and thats where you can satisfy your need of knowing if it was a true victim or not. Its truly not as difficult and painful as you are making it out to be.

    Exactly

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  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 27,189 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walter Sobchak said:

    @bspn said:
    To all those saying there's no victim, tell that to the poor innocent carpet he pissed all over. Sorry, allegedly pissed all over.

    ...rug really tied the plane together

    I just want to understand this sir, every time a rug is micturated upon on a plane, Thorbjorn has to compensate the person?

  • brew4eaglebrew4eagle VAMembers Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @brew4eagle said:
    :Edited to say. I think you’re loosely insinuating that a prosecutor won’t bring charges unless it’s a clear cut and dried case. Meaning if you’re charged with this it’s a given that you’re guilty. Just not even close to reality. Never has been. And it’s worse now with today’s tech age. Pressure to believe every story told. Loads of politics involved when it’s a high profile person. Which is why I wonder what the proof is ? ."
    Not at all what I was insinuating.

    Not a problem. My fault for reading that into it.

    But that leaves me throughly puzzled as to how you can have a victim without irrefutable proof or a conviction. ( we have neither ). I think what you mean to say is plaintiff. Not victim.
    If there are numerous witnesses or irrefutable proof of an actual sexual assault here , in close quarters with all those people , I’m puzzled as to how or why they let it go on more than 20 seconds.( which I’d agree is too long ) What I’m saying is I need much more info for this to add up to anything more than a drunk idiot on a plane. The small parts we have make it hard to connect the dots from drunk guy peeing on a plane to a sexual assault.

    Please explain to me how you convict base on what we know ? That conviction will include identifying a clear victim.

    "Plaintiff" is not the right term. That's traditionally reserved for civil proceedings. We currently have a victim (unknown) and a subject (thunderbear). That's it, simple. Both are "alleged", but in any casefile paperwork (in the U.S. at least) the "alleged" adjective won't be written as it's superfluous. When it gets to court there will be the prosecution (aka complainant) and the defense. I never implied any guilt or a 'real' victim. You're reading way between the lines.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,616 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 12, 2019 1:19am #391

    @Terry Gold said:
    I'm not a lawyer but i play one on the internet.
    By the way, I can also fix Jordan Spieth.
    Pathetic.

    What’s pathetic is.... ahhh. Nice try .... not in the mood to take your bait tonight. As you said. Today’s world is too bright to worry about shiny objects dangled by the promiscuous versions of the fairer ****. ( biggest eye roll imaginable ).

    Post edited by bladehunter on
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