What really matters, physics or feel

[Golfjack]

Physics <-> Feel <-> Golfer

If we could just take physics or looking at a pro's swing and apply it to ourselves successfully, then we'd all have picture perfect swings. Feels help us get there. Like iTeach says, you don't need to know physics or be experts at it. You can know feels through experience etc. Just don't pretend to be something you are not. You'll be just fine being who you are.

[Ri_Redneck]

> @Krt22 said:

> **Physics, because feel isnt real.**

>

>

>

> Do the physics need to be explained on lesson tee? Absolutely not (unless the student prefers/benefits from it), but understanding fundamentally what is really going on just means the teacher will likely be more effective at communicating the appropriate feels/drills/concepts to make measurable changes.

>

>

>

> The golf swing is already difficult and counter-intuitive enough. Feels that are fundamentally incorrect need to be explained as such, otherwise they are likely just a quick band-aid and could ultimately be detrimental if the student decides to go down the rabbit hole of applying more and more feel.

I detest this phrase. No, "feel" is not what is actually happening, but "feel" is what every golfer uses to have an idea about what they are doing. **I challenge anyone here to say they are simply going through the physics of the golf swing in their mind when they hit a shot.**

 

It simply isn't true. We all develop feel for the proper physics when we learn. THAT is how we condition ourselves to be repetitive. That is why it is important to actually know what is happening in your swing so that you can relate that to the feel that you are experiencing.

 

BT

 

[AMGolfPro]

Lassie

 

Anyone who reads Frozen Divots posts, and doesn’t have the privilege of knowing him as I do, would likely be extremely surprised how he applies his physics insight to golf swing ‘instruction.’

 

One of Frozen Divots great statements is that FORCE DEFORMS. He has an uncanny eye for efficiency and inefficiency of motion; he sees the forces behind the form unlike anyone I’ve ever encountered.

 

The golf swing is very non-intuitive to most. That’s why, in my opinion, focusing on the motion itself is not the best approach to learning and playing golf. Yes, Frozen Divots knows the physics, and is happy to discuss the physics - particularly as he often does in golf forums, where curious minds seek to better understand the golf swing motion. Often you find Frozen Divots dispelling common misconceptions, such as those pertaining to gravity and it’s role in the golf swing.

 

However, Frozen Divots has developed extremely practical ways others can apply his understanding - without having his understanding - that are quite unique, personalized and effective. No understanding of physics required on the part of the ‘student.’ There is NO ‘method.’ In fact, there are as many WAYS as there are golfers. Frozen Divots is after the MOST EFFICIENT and CONSISTENT way each individual golfer is capable.

 

Another common statement Frozen Divots makes is that ‘unlearning is harder than learning.’ Setting aside preconceived notions and approaches is easier said than done. Particularly when it comes to the observed form of motion. Trying to ‘manufacture’ complex motion through positional emulation (form) is nearly always futile . . . FORCE DEFORMS.

 

In other words, toward OPs question/comment, the greatest mind I know when it comes to understanding motion (physics) doesn’t require or recommend any golfer ‘think’ about physics when learning and playing golf.

 

OP wrote: “It seems to me that most of the great players who ever lived had no clue about physics. . . yet they were great players.” I would slightly modify by stating, most great golfers - athletes in general - are VERY AWARE of physics, but DO NOT THINK about physics in learning and executing a complex motion.

 

[Krt22]

> @Ri_Redneck said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > **Physics, because feel isnt real.**

> >

> >

> >

> > Do the physics need to be explained on lesson tee? Absolutely not (unless the student prefers/benefits from it), but understanding fundamentally what is really going on just means the teacher will likely be more effective at communicating the appropriate feels/drills/concepts to make measurable changes.

> >

> >

> >

> > The golf swing is already difficult and counter-intuitive enough. Feels that are fundamentally incorrect need to be explained as such, otherwise they are likely just a quick band-aid and could ultimately be detrimental if the student decides to go down the rabbit hole of applying more and more feel.

> I detest this phrase. No, "feel" is not what is actually happening, but "feel" is what every golfer uses to have an idea about what they are doing. **I challenge anyone here to say they are simply going through the physics of the golf swing in their mind when they hit a shot.**

>

> It simply isn't true. We all develop feel for the proper physics when we learn. THAT is how we condition ourselves to be repetitive. That is why it is important to actually know what is happening in your swing so that you can relate that to the feel that you are experiencing.

>

> BT

>

 

Disagree all you want. Going purely by feel is why so many golfers never get better. There is typically a big disconnect between what they feel and what is really happening since there are lot of things that are counter-intuitive if you aren't well informed. Understanding what is going on (or needs to go on) is key such that you can find the feel/thought/motion to get the desired results.

 

You see it every day on here. Someone posts a video, people point out the flaws, give them feels to try, they report back "That feels terrible, cant be right". Now if they understood the basic physics/mechanics of what is going on in the golf swing, they likely would not so quick to discount certain feels, when in reality those odd/uncomfortable feels will produce better results.

[RichieHunt]

What matters in the end is if you can do it with some form of repeatability. There have been countless players that could do without understanding the physics/science behind it. But, from my own experience and observing these players...the issues arise when their mechanics alter for the worse. Then they lose that any semblance of repeatability that they once had and can't figure out what is going wrong. In my case, the worst part was trying to find an instructor that knew what they were talking about because if I didn't understand the physics/science...how would I find a teacher that actually knew the physics/science?

 

My swing has altered quite a bit. Particularly in the past few years. For me, it *feels* the same, for the most part. The differences in the feel of the swing are more subtle. Less throwing my arms and hands at the ball and being more patient with my arms/hands and '_letting the ball get in the way of the swing_'

 

I think my swing is better, the motion feels very much the same when all is said and done. But when I first make changes, the motion feels very odd...obviously. I think that is perhaps where many golfers don't comprehend...initial changes will feel odd, but eventually your mechanics will change and the swing motion will feel like it always did.

 

 

 

 

RH

[AMGolfPro]

Rich

 

Just wanted to say how much I appreciate the manner in which you present yourself on this forum. True professionalism.

[oikos1]

Just curious. To what level of physics are PGA teaching professionals taught/tested on in order to become PGA professionals?

 

I'm guessing not much, but don't really know.

[MelloYello]

As an engineer schooled in Newtonian mechanics I regularly squirm when I listen to lingo from that world tossed around in golf-land. Most people are innocently repeating stuff they've heard. Ok, whatever. To listen to guys who clearly never opened a physics textbook in their life use terms like "angular momentum" and "moment of inertia" is of course kind of appalling but at the same time, they're trying to get an idea across. I can respect that.

 

Now, the guy who's using that lingo to try and sound like he knows something more than he does? F that guy. As Einstein said, if you can't explain something simply, you don't understand it yourself.

 

We're not solving problems in a undergrad classroom. No instructor is actually applying their knowledge of physics as far as I know. I mean, the engineers who write the code for Trackman software are doing some real engineering but the guy using a Trackman is not. He's an operator.

 

That said, why would you not want an operator to be versed in the latest and greatest machinery? I would. An instructor that uses the information Trackman provides (as opposed to say, just watching the swing and the resulting the ball-flight) is simply diagnosing problems in a more thorough way.

 

I've never heard of a guy using a Trackman without also watching the player swing and watching the ball-flight, too.

 

This kind of seems like a strawman type debate but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Atrayn]

___"but don’t try and tell me your hot stripper girlfriend, who has tried to stab you twice, is chill and you have a unicorn"___

But what REALLY matters in the end is that THIS is how I find out she was cheatin...

[TexasTurf]

> @AMGolfPro said:

 

> One of Frozen Divots great statements is that FORCE DEFORMS. He has an uncanny eye for efficiency and inefficiency of motion; he sees the forces behind the form unlike anyone I’ve ever encountered.

>

> The golf swing is very non-intuitive to most. That’s why, in my opinion, focusing on the motion itself is not the best approach to learning and playing golf. Yes, Frozen Divots knows the physics, and is happy to discuss the physics - particularly as he often does in golf forums, where curious minds seek to better understand the golf swing motion. Often you find Frozen Divots dispelling common misconceptions, such as those pertaining to gravity and it’s role in the golf swing.

>

Trying to ‘manufacture’ complex motion through positional emulation (form) is nearly always futile . . . FORCE DEFORMS.

>

 

Could you please elaborate on what you and FD are meaning by "force deforms." Or provide an example or examples of how this applies in the efficient golf swing?

[Atrayn]

"pulling the handle" is a great one....This force applied to the handle disrupts the efficiency of the physics involved in moving the handle and thus the club head within the desired arcs of the swing plane, arm plane and clubhead.

[Ri_Redneck]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @Ri_Redneck said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > **Physics, because feel isnt real.**

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Do the physics need to be explained on lesson tee? Absolutely not (unless the student prefers/benefits from it), but understanding fundamentally what is really going on just means the teacher will likely be more effective at communicating the appropriate feels/drills/concepts to make measurable changes.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The golf swing is already difficult and counter-intuitive enough. Feels that are fundamentally incorrect need to be explained as such, otherwise they are likely just a quick band-aid and could ultimately be detrimental if the student decides to go down the rabbit hole of applying more and more feel.

> > I detest this phrase. No, "feel" is not what is actually happening, but "feel" is what every golfer uses to have an idea about what they are doing. **I challenge anyone here to say they are simply going through the physics of the golf swing in their mind when they hit a shot.**

> >

> > It simply isn't true. We all develop feel for the proper physics when we learn. THAT is how we condition ourselves to be repetitive. That is why it is important to actually know what is happening in your swing so that you can relate that to the feel that you are experiencing.

> >

> > BT

> >

>

> Disagree all you want. Going purely by feel is why so many golfers never get better. There is typically a big disconnect between what they feel and what is really happening since there are lot of things that are counter-intuitive if you aren't well informed. Understanding what is going on (or needs to go on) is key such that you can find the feel/thought/motion to get the desired results.

>

> You see it every day on here. Someone posts a video, people point out the flaws, give them feels to try, they report back "That feels terrible, cant be right". Now if they understood the basic physics/mechanics of what is going on in the golf swing, they likely would not so quick to discount certain feels, when in reality those odd/uncomfortable feels will produce better results.

 

Never said anyone should learn exclusively by feel. Not what I said at all. I simply don't like the phrase because once you have learned the proper feel for the proper physics, then the feel IS real!

 

Learning has to be a correlation of physics and feel in order to teach your body the changes you have to make and, in turn, have your body repeat the motions in a consistent manner. People learn in different ways, but the one consistency is that we all rely on feel to allow us to do what we need to do in the golf swing. The "Feel isn't Real" phrase leads many to think that all they need to do is know the physics and they're good to go. This is not true. You must commit the physics to feelings in order to execute the swing in a consistent manner. Trying to think through the golf swing, while playing, has never worked for anyone. The motions must be ingrained into muscle memory through drills and practice.

 

Now, this tread, I think, is focused on how much of each is needed. Well, the answer is obviously "It depends on the student". Some need a lot of terms and details in order to convince themselves the feels are correct and others may just need to be led trough simple drills that give them the feels they need to get it right because they trust the teacher. The problems arise when the students start trying to pass on info with limited knowledge of what is actually happening. It's important for posters here to admit that they may not know all the physics behind what they are doing. Letting other posters know this will keep things in perspective and lessen the disinformation that is rampant here sometimes.

 

BT

[Pepperturbo]

LOL - Someone that's into physics takes forever to hit a high 10' draw trajectory. They have to map it out in their mind. Better yet analyze a nats azz before committing to a shot, and then analyze more nats to be exact, only then... Yet, when over the ball and executing, it's still a crapshoot where the ball goes. You'd think with all the mental master-bay-tion, results would be more dependable but nay. I say this after having watched many times a very good friend that is a physicist and MD play his version of golf.

 

Then there's me, a feel player that thinks fast assess conditions and quickly decides shot profile gets over the ball and pulls the trigger. Bam, executes the shot plan. So, in answer to the OP's question, physics is fine at home or on the range, but on the golf course, feel makes the game enjoyable and results-oriented, and doesn't take nearly as long to play. B)

[Krt22]

> @Ri_Redneck said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @Ri_Redneck said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > **Physics, because feel isnt real.**

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Do the physics need to be explained on lesson tee? Absolutely not (unless the student prefers/benefits from it), but understanding fundamentally what is really going on just means the teacher will likely be more effective at communicating the appropriate feels/drills/concepts to make measurable changes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The golf swing is already difficult and counter-intuitive enough. Feels that are fundamentally incorrect need to be explained as such, otherwise they are likely just a quick band-aid and could ultimately be detrimental if the student decides to go down the rabbit hole of applying more and more feel.

> > > I detest this phrase. No, "feel" is not what is actually happening, but "feel" is what every golfer uses to have an idea about what they are doing. **I challenge anyone here to say they are simply going through the physics of the golf swing in their mind when they hit a shot.**

> > >

> > > It simply isn't true. We all develop feel for the proper physics when we learn. THAT is how we condition ourselves to be repetitive. That is why it is important to actually know what is happening in your swing so that you can relate that to the feel that you are experiencing.

> > >

> > > BT

> > >

> >

> > Disagree all you want. Going purely by feel is why so many golfers never get better. There is typically a big disconnect between what they feel and what is really happening since there are lot of things that are counter-intuitive if you aren't well informed. Understanding what is going on (or needs to go on) is key such that you can find the feel/thought/motion to get the desired results.

> >

> > You see it every day on here. Someone posts a video, people point out the flaws, give them feels to try, they report back "That feels terrible, cant be right". Now if they understood the basic physics/mechanics of what is going on in the golf swing, they likely would not so quick to discount certain feels, when in reality those odd/uncomfortable feels will produce better results.

>

> Never said anyone should learn exclusively by feel. Not what I said at all. I simply don't like the phrase because once you have learned the proper feel for the proper physics, then the feel IS real!

>

> Learning has to be a correlation of physics and feel in order to teach your body the changes you have to make and, in turn, have your body repeat the motions in a consistent manner. People learn in different ways, but the one consistency is that we all rely on feel to allow us to do what we need to do in the golf swing. **The "Feel isn't Real" phrase leads many to think that all they need to do is know the physics and they're good to go. This is not true. You must commit the physics to feelings in order to execute the swing in a consistent manner. Trying to think through the golf swing, while playing, has never worked for anyone**. The motions must be ingrained into muscle memory through drills and practice.

>

> Now, this tread, I think, is focused on how much of each is needed. Well, the answer is obviously "It depends on the student". Some need a lot of terms and details in order to convince themselves the feels are correct and others may just need to be led trough simple drills that give them the feels they need to get it right because they trust the teacher. The problems arise when the students start trying to pass on info with limited knowledge of what is actually happening. It's important for posters here to admit that they may not know all the physics behind what they are doing. Letting other posters know this will keep things in perspective and lessen the disinformation that is rampant here sometimes.

>

> BT

 

Perhaps this is where the disconnect is. I don't think that saying leads to what you say it does, not even close. Without knowing the basics of what is going on, going by feel alone can be very counter-intuitive and lead many down the wrong path. What many golfers think/feel is right and what is actually right are very often two different things, hence the term feel isnt real.

 

Classic example..someone slices the ball, they see it going right, starts to aim more left, ball goes even more right. Student is stumped, how is that possible? Understanding the basics of the ball flight laws, compression/spin loft, what controls low point, etc can go a long way vs trying to do it all by feel/ball flight. You can easily manufacturer a decent shot with poor mechanics but open yourself up to lots of inconsistency.

[Petethreeput]

IMO, feel trumps physics in golf, though I can’t disagree with anyone bc it is so personal.

If someone asks me how I hit a draw I will tell them how I do it. It is not consistent with new ball flight laws, but is consistent with how it was taught for 50 years or more. But most importantly to me, it consistently produces a draw/ hook.

If I were to ask an instructor how to hit a draw/hook to escape the trees, and they went into a physics lesson about spin axis and clubhead direction and path? I, personally would suffer from analysis paralysis. I think less is more in any athletic endeavor.

 

[Nard_S]

Geometry is way more important than physics to any golfer. You watch the PGA, guys have good geometry, all of them all the time, go to a muni on Saturday, bad body geometry abounds. The physics? Who cares. You use good geometry, you get good physics and good results.

[crucible]

> @Forged4ever said:

> I can only speak of one of the 2-3 Greatest Players to ever plant the peg and he wasn’t kiddin when he said that the golf swing was simple arithmetic and not trigonometry, lol

>

> Neither Sam, nor his Bro Pete, who taught him how to swing as a kid and was the only “Teacher” that he ever had and the only Man that he went to to have his swing looked at his last 28+ years on earth, used any type of physics, biomechanics or trigonometry, lolol, when speaking to or Teaching someone about the golf swing. Did they understand the physics of the golf swing? I’m sure that Pete did only from the standpoint of being able to discuss the swing with some of the idiots that he encountered at their meetings/seminars.

>

> Sam?

>

> I seriously doubt it and the reason that I say this is because while Pete taught me the physical swing and game, and yea, he influenced my mental game from a focus and drive standpoint, however I watched and spoke to Sam for over 25+ years about the mental side and what thoughts that he kept in his head(FWIW, that holdin a bird ? tight enough to hold it but not tight enough to squeeze it was bulls***, even though he did say it, lol. If he gripped your hand like he did a club, and I had him do it myriad times, trust me here Gents, it was tighter than that, lol) and he did not “clutter” his mind with extraneous superfluous and/or irrelevant information and I can’t remember the number of times that he got up from the table when guys were having swing debates and I asked him one time why he didn’t throw his “.02 worth” in and he laughed and replied that he didn’t have enough swing knowledge to fill a shot glass but he could swing a club under pressure AND Teach someone else to swing a club under pressure better than any of the Pros at the old Golf Digest Teachers’ Summit, which was the “Who’s Who” of the Top Teaching Pros in the 70’s & 80’s, so why would he argue with a bunch of “chops in this town,” lolol, referring to Pittsburgh.

>

> One, these were not chops in the literal sense as they were Local Teaching Pros and top Ams, and and secondly, two of the Pros who used to sit at that table and throw that stuff out there are internationally prominent and renowned Teaching Pros today, one who was the tip of the spear regarding introducing/using video for lessons while he was at Oakmont, and no, it wasn’t Bob Ford.

>

> So, bottom line is, at least for me, if the Guy/Gal can help you groove a consistent swing that you can execute under pressure, then they’re your guy/gal.

>

> If not, I’d suggest that ya look for someone else?

>

> Whether or not they use simple jargon to convey their thoughts or combine a golf lesson with a physics/biomechanics class is purely up to you as to what it takes for you to ingrain that swing under pressure.

>

> For me?

>

> KISS

>

> When s*** hit the fan and I was goin sideways, I didn’t want to have to “go deep” to right myself.

>

> Put it this way~

>

> If I needed guidance in the locker room prior to a major match, I’d take a Pete Snead all day every day 7/365 & 24/7 in case there’s any doubt, versus a Sean Foley.

>

> Plus, I’d never lever lay claim to even knowin a lil guy runnin around the course with a **** video recorder strapped to his chest, much less have him as my Teacher?

>

> WTF???

>

> As always, just my .03 worth

>

> Cheers?

> RP

 

Forged, you've referenced Pete Snead several times as the instructor who had the most influenced you. I've done a search on him and basically found an article written about him and his range and how he didn't suffer fools well but got results. Would you share some insight on how he taught that would be helpful. I can relate to him through an old pro who taught at Riverside C.C. in nearby Berea, Ohio many years ago who's name is now forgotten to me.

In regards to physics vs. feel give me the old adage "just knock down the pin laddie, you be thinkin' way too much."

[Nard_S]

> @LASSIEGOHOME said:

> Interesting concept regarding getting good geometry. I was just looking at some old 'videos' relating to another thread that has just been posted regarding ' Wright Balance' . This Dr Wright seems to stress that if you optimise your 'grip/posture/stance width' setup , you get the correct hip alignment , maximise your rotation while keeping in balance. So maybe the correct geometry at setup creates the right conditions to deploy the correct physics.

> https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1594244/dr-wright-wright-balance-technology#latest

> https://www.youtube.com/user/Wrightbalance/videos

>

 

Top tier guys do pay more attention grip posture and setup but It's more than that. They maintain angles and points of pivot throughout the swing and swing freely within that frame work. Watch PGA, their hip rotation is simple efficient and fast. Watch weekend warriors, it's anything but those. Pro's rarely look like they "over swing" because their shoulder rotation is truer in depth and to plane so keeping arms synced up is much easier. Their legs facilitate & counter act forces generated, dynamic balance is held so striking within MM's repeatedly becomes doable. All of it is about using better geometry and holding the body to it. The killer is, to be simple and true to the math, it is very difficult to do. Furyck & Rickie could not be more at odds but they both execute great mechanics and adhere to same principles even when their personal swing map looks so different.

[aggiegolfer21]

Would you rather feel weird while making the right swing or feel "right" while making the wrong swing? I've done away with a focus on feel and it has completely changed my game. The movement of the club is all that matters. I think "feel" is very overrated. People have been trying to feel the golf swing for a long time now and this hasn't helped the vast majority. I think this is for a couple of reasons: 1. Feels can change from day to day, a feel that works one day will not work the next and then you have to find the next feel that works (until it doesn't again any more) 2. 99% of the time, the feeling is focused on one or two parts of the swing which leaves the other parts up to chance. I am convinced that golfers will improve much more rapidly by trying to make the correct movements with the club than by trying to perfect "feels". I suppose this puts me on the physics side of this conversation, definitely not the feel side.

[Forged4ever]

How bout feel “right” making the right swing???

 

It’s not an either/or situation and as has been stated above me, it depends on the individual and how they accept information, process it and then integrate it into an acceptable consistent reproducible swing.

 

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters, or at least how I was taught, was the number on the card, scoreboard, etc.

 

Everything else??

 

It’s bulls*** Gents!!

 

There is no be all end all, black/white right or wrong way to teach it, learn it or execute it.

 

Hold on a sec, I was mistaken?.....

 

Whatever method that allows one to maximize their potential and put the lowest numbers on the card IS the “right” way?

 

Have a great week Gents & NEVER stop swingin?

RP

[Ri_Redneck]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @Ri_Redneck said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @Ri_Redneck said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > **Physics, because feel isnt real.**

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Do the physics need to be explained on lesson tee? Absolutely not (unless the student prefers/benefits from it), but understanding fundamentally what is really going on just means the teacher will likely be more effective at communicating the appropriate feels/drills/concepts to make measurable changes.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The golf swing is already difficult and counter-intuitive enough. Feels that are fundamentally incorrect need to be explained as such, otherwise they are likely just a quick band-aid and could ultimately be detrimental if the student decides to go down the rabbit hole of applying more and more feel.

> > > > I detest this phrase. No, "feel" is not what is actually happening, but "feel" is what every golfer uses to have an idea about what they are doing. **I challenge anyone here to say they are simply going through the physics of the golf swing in their mind when they hit a shot.**

> > > >

> > > > It simply isn't true. We all develop feel for the proper physics when we learn. THAT is how we condition ourselves to be repetitive. That is why it is important to actually know what is happening in your swing so that you can relate that to the feel that you are experiencing.

> > > >

> > > > BT

> > > >

> > >

> > > Disagree all you want. Going purely by feel is why so many golfers never get better. There is typically a big disconnect between what they feel and what is really happening since there are lot of things that are counter-intuitive if you aren't well informed. Understanding what is going on (or needs to go on) is key such that you can find the feel/thought/motion to get the desired results.

> > >

> > > You see it every day on here. Someone posts a video, people point out the flaws, give them feels to try, they report back "That feels terrible, cant be right". Now if they understood the basic physics/mechanics of what is going on in the golf swing, they likely would not so quick to discount certain feels, when in reality those odd/uncomfortable feels will produce better results.

> >

> > Never said anyone should learn exclusively by feel. Not what I said at all. I simply don't like the phrase because once you have learned the proper feel for the proper physics, then the feel IS real!

> >

> > Learning has to be a correlation of physics and feel in order to teach your body the changes you have to make and, in turn, have your body repeat the motions in a consistent manner. People learn in different ways, but the one consistency is that we all rely on feel to allow us to do what we need to do in the golf swing. **The "Feel isn't Real" phrase leads many to think that all they need to do is know the physics and they're good to go. This is not true. You must commit the physics to feelings in order to execute the swing in a consistent manner. Trying to think through the golf swing, while playing, has never worked for anyone**. The motions must be ingrained into muscle memory through drills and practice.

> >

> > Now, this tread, I think, is focused on how much of each is needed. Well, the answer is obviously "It depends on the student". Some need a lot of terms and details in order to convince themselves the feels are correct and others may just need to be led trough simple drills that give them the feels they need to get it right because they trust the teacher. The problems arise when the students start trying to pass on info with limited knowledge of what is actually happening. It's important for posters here to admit that they may not know all the physics behind what they are doing. Letting other posters know this will keep things in perspective and lessen the disinformation that is rampant here sometimes.

> >

> > BT

>

> Perhaps this is where the disconnect is. I don't think that saying leads to what you say it does, not even close. Without knowing the basics of what is going on, going by feel alone can be very counter-intuitive and lead many down the wrong path. What many golfers think/feel is right and what is actually right are very often two different things, hence the term feel isnt real.

>

> Classic example..someone slices the ball, they see it going right, starts to aim more left, ball goes even more right. Student is stumped, how is that possible? Understanding the basics of the ball flight laws, compression/spin loft, what controls low point, etc can go a long way vs trying to do it all by feel/ball flight. You can easily manufacturer a decent shot with poor mechanics but open yourself up to lots of inconsistency.

 

Sorry, but I find it laughable that you insist that "Feel isn't Real" and then agree with me that the proper motions must be committed to feel for one to be a successful golfer.

 

BT

 

[hacker49]

My instructor emphasizes "feel vs real" in his lessons. So he will have you work a drill, say swing a half swing or extending your arms. Then he will call you over to the monitor to show you the video of what you are actually doing. More times than not what you think you are doing isn't what you are doing.

 

That being said while physics dictates how the ball will react to your swing I doubt many people think about the physics while swinging. They think about body rotation, or hand position or some motion. So I would say it has more to do with feel which will in turn, if done right, give us the correct physics to get the ball to do what we want it to do.

[aggiegolfer21]

> @Forged4ever said:

> How bout feel “right” making the right swing???

>

> It’s not an either/or situation and as has been stated above me, it depends on the individual and how they accept information, process it and then integrate it into an acceptable consistent reproducible swing.

>

> At the end of the day, the only thing that matters, or at least how I was taught, was the number on the card, scoreboard, etc.

>

> Everything else??

>

> It’s bulls*** Gents!!

>

> There is no be all end all, black/white right or wrong way to teach it, learn it or execute it.

>

> Hold on a sec, I was mistaken?.....

>

> Whatever method that allows one to maximize their potential and put the lowest numbers on the card IS the “right” way?

>

> Have a great week Gents & NEVER stop swingin?

> RP

 

What I am trying to say is that golfers should focus on making the club move correctly. If the club is moving correctly, they will inevitably have the correct feeling, it just may not be a good feeling, at least not until they get used to it. Feel is less important than the club's movement is the point I am making.

[Krt22]

> @Ri_Redneck said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @Ri_Redneck said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @Ri_Redneck said:

> > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > **Physics, because feel isnt real.**

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do the physics need to be explained on lesson tee? Absolutely not (unless the student prefers/benefits from it), but understanding fundamentally what is really going on just means the teacher will likely be more effective at communicating the appropriate feels/drills/concepts to make measurable changes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The golf swing is already difficult and counter-intuitive enough. Feels that are fundamentally incorrect need to be explained as such, otherwise they are likely just a quick band-aid and could ultimately be detrimental if the student decides to go down the rabbit hole of applying more and more feel.

> > > > > I detest this phrase. No, "feel" is not what is actually happening, but "feel" is what every golfer uses to have an idea about what they are doing. **I challenge anyone here to say they are simply going through the physics of the golf swing in their mind when they hit a shot.**

> > > > >

> > > > > It simply isn't true. We all develop feel for the proper physics when we learn. THAT is how we condition ourselves to be repetitive. That is why it is important to actually know what is happening in your swing so that you can relate that to the feel that you are experiencing.

> > > > >

> > > > > BT

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Disagree all you want. Going purely by feel is why so many golfers never get better. There is typically a big disconnect between what they feel and what is really happening since there are lot of things that are counter-intuitive if you aren't well informed. Understanding what is going on (or needs to go on) is key such that you can find the feel/thought/motion to get the desired results.

> > > >

> > > > You see it every day on here. Someone posts a video, people point out the flaws, give them feels to try, they report back "That feels terrible, cant be right". Now if they understood the basic physics/mechanics of what is going on in the golf swing, they likely would not so quick to discount certain feels, when in reality those odd/uncomfortable feels will produce better results.

> > >

> > > Never said anyone should learn exclusively by feel. Not what I said at all. I simply don't like the phrase because once you have learned the proper feel for the proper physics, then the feel IS real!

> > >

> > > Learning has to be a correlation of physics and feel in order to teach your body the changes you have to make and, in turn, have your body repeat the motions in a consistent manner. People learn in different ways, but the one consistency is that we all rely on feel to allow us to do what we need to do in the golf swing. **The "Feel isn't Real" phrase leads many to think that all they need to do is know the physics and they're good to go. This is not true. You must commit the physics to feelings in order to execute the swing in a consistent manner. Trying to think through the golf swing, while playing, has never worked for anyone**. The motions must be ingrained into muscle memory through drills and practice.

> > >

> > > Now, this tread, I think, is focused on how much of each is needed. Well, the answer is obviously "It depends on the student". Some need a lot of terms and details in order to convince themselves the feels are correct and others may just need to be led trough simple drills that give them the feels they need to get it right because they trust the teacher. The problems arise when the students start trying to pass on info with limited knowledge of what is actually happening. It's important for posters here to admit that they may not know all the physics behind what they are doing. Letting other posters know this will keep things in perspective and lessen the disinformation that is rampant here sometimes.

> > >

> > > BT

> >

> > Perhaps this is where the disconnect is. I don't think that saying leads to what you say it does, not even close. Without knowing the basics of what is going on, going by feel alone can be very counter-intuitive and lead many down the wrong path. What many golfers think/feel is right and what is actually right are very often two different things, hence the term feel isnt real.

> >

> > Classic example..someone slices the ball, they see it going right, starts to aim more left, ball goes even more right. Student is stumped, how is that possible? Understanding the basics of the ball flight laws, compression/spin loft, what controls low point, etc can go a long way vs trying to do it all by feel/ball flight. You can easily manufacturer a decent shot with poor mechanics but open yourself up to lots of inconsistency.

>

> Sorry, but I find it laughable that you insist that "Feel isn't Real" and then agree with me that the proper motions must be committed to feel for one to be a successful golfer.

>

> BT

>

 

Because sometimes what you feel to get the desired outcome simply isnt what is really going on, I'm not sure why that is so hard to comprehend. Your chances of being a successful golfer go up quite a bit if what you can understand this inherent disconnect.

 

I struggle with my pivot and getting too shallow. When I make a proper pivot/extension, I feel like I'm way steep and if I don't consciously fight that feeling my old pattern will show it's face and I will get into too much right side bend and hook it off the planet. What I feel in that case simply isnt real. I'm not too steep, instead I'm in a much more powerful position to deliver the club with better face control. When I fight the feeling and instead try to keep my left shoulder down longer, the ball goes a club further, launches lower, and has much less curve.

[Atrayn]

The spine is going to do what it's going to do to seek the required alignments for efficient speed. Something gets out of alignment, then the drum will not drum loud or easy....Picture the silohuette instead of the spine, arms or elbow individually. Your mission is to put the club in the best position you can to seek "optimal alignments" given YOUR physical characteristics. If, you happen raise the right elbow at the top of the swing, what happens in the silhoutte? What then needs to happen to seek realignment? An additional counter-feel needs to happen. It is also makes the swing require an additional effort or force, if you will, to redirect the club back on the "optimal" path.

 

[bladehunter]

> @Shilgy said:

> I would say that it certainly does not hurt for the teacher to know the physics piece but it is not absolutely necessary either. The ability to communicate the desired change in a way that penetrates my mind and gets to the body and the swing is what I need to improve.

>

>

>

> The question reminds me of a few years ago when the new "ball flight laws" were just starting to be taught and discussed. The number of guys that gleefully posted their vast knowledge of these laws and how Jack and company had no clue.

>

>

>

> Give me a feel for how to make the ball do what I want, one that I know if I do it properly the ball will act accordingly and I am set.

 

Exactly. You can show me on trackman. But can you move it high and low in both directions ? If not I’m not listening. Info is good. But feel is what you can trust in battle.

 

18 majors says jack has a clue. Lol.

[Ri_Redneck]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @Ri_Redneck said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @Ri_Redneck said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > @Ri_Redneck said:

> > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > **Physics, because feel isnt real.**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Do the physics need to be explained on lesson tee? Absolutely not (unless the student prefers/benefits from it), but understanding fundamentally what is really going on just means the teacher will likely be more effective at communicating the appropriate feels/drills/concepts to make measurable changes.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The golf swing is already difficult and counter-intuitive enough. Feels that are fundamentally incorrect need to be explained as such, otherwise they are likely just a quick band-aid and could ultimately be detrimental if the student decides to go down the rabbit hole of applying more and more feel.

> > > > > > I detest this phrase. No, "feel" is not what is actually happening, but "feel" is what every golfer uses to have an idea about what they are doing. **I challenge anyone here to say they are simply going through the physics of the golf swing in their mind when they hit a shot.**

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It simply isn't true. We all develop feel for the proper physics when we learn. THAT is how we condition ourselves to be repetitive. That is why it is important to actually know what is happening in your swing so that you can relate that to the feel that you are experiencing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > BT

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Disagree all you want. Going purely by feel is why so many golfers never get better. There is typically a big disconnect between what they feel and what is really happening since there are lot of things that are counter-intuitive if you aren't well informed. Understanding what is going on (or needs to go on) is key such that you can find the feel/thought/motion to get the desired results.

> > > > >

> > > > > You see it every day on here. Someone posts a video, people point out the flaws, give them feels to try, they report back "That feels terrible, cant be right". Now if they understood the basic physics/mechanics of what is going on in the golf swing, they likely would not so quick to discount certain feels, when in reality those odd/uncomfortable feels will produce better results.

> > > >

> > > > Never said anyone should learn exclusively by feel. Not what I said at all. I simply don't like the phrase because once you have learned the proper feel for the proper physics, then the feel IS real!

> > > >

> > > > Learning has to be a correlation of physics and feel in order to teach your body the changes you have to make and, in turn, have your body repeat the motions in a consistent manner. People learn in different ways, but the one consistency is that we all rely on feel to allow us to do what we need to do in the golf swing. **The "Feel isn't Real" phrase leads many to think that all they need to do is know the physics and they're good to go. This is not true. You must commit the physics to feelings in order to execute the swing in a consistent manner. Trying to think through the golf swing, while playing, has never worked for anyone**. The motions must be ingrained into muscle memory through drills and practice.

> > > >

> > > > Now, this tread, I think, is focused on how much of each is needed. Well, the answer is obviously "It depends on the student". Some need a lot of terms and details in order to convince themselves the feels are correct and others may just need to be led trough simple drills that give them the feels they need to get it right because they trust the teacher. The problems arise when the students start trying to pass on info with limited knowledge of what is actually happening. It's important for posters here to admit that they may not know all the physics behind what they are doing. Letting other posters know this will keep things in perspective and lessen the disinformation that is rampant here sometimes.

> > > >

> > > > BT

> > >

> > > Perhaps this is where the disconnect is. I don't think that saying leads to what you say it does, not even close. Without knowing the basics of what is going on, going by feel alone can be very counter-intuitive and lead many down the wrong path. What many golfers think/feel is right and what is actually right are very often two different things, hence the term feel isnt real.

> > >

> > > Classic example..someone slices the ball, they see it going right, starts to aim more left, ball goes even more right. Student is stumped, how is that possible? Understanding the basics of the ball flight laws, compression/spin loft, what controls low point, etc can go a long way vs trying to do it all by feel/ball flight. You can easily manufacturer a decent shot with poor mechanics but open yourself up to lots of inconsistency.

> >

> > Sorry, but I find it laughable that you insist that "Feel isn't Real" and then agree with me that the proper motions must be committed to feel for one to be a successful golfer.

> >

> > BT

> >

>

> **Because sometimes what you feel to get the desired outcome simply isnt what is really going on, I'm not sure why that is so hard to comprehend. **Your chances of being a successful golfer go up quite a bit if what you can understand this inherent disconnect.

>

> I struggle with my pivot and getting too shallow. When I make a proper pivot/extension, I feel like I'm way steep and if I don't consciously fight that feeling my old pattern will show it's face and I will get into too much right side bend and hook it off the planet. What I feel in that case simply isnt real. I'm not too steep, instead I'm in a much more powerful position to deliver the club with better face control. When I fight the feeling and instead try to keep my left shoulder down longer, the ball goes a club further, launches lower, and has much less curve.

 

Exactly! But the key word is SOMETIMES. When one has a swing fault, at that point, the feel isn't real. I am simply saying that proper training should include "feel education" to where you feel the correct motions and relate that feel to memory to replace the feel that was wrong. That way you can distinguish the proper feel with the proper motion. Once you're there, the feel is real. Your proper swing should never feel wrong. if it does, then a flaw has crept in and should be assessed immediately.

 

I think we just learn in dissimilar ways. I have used video extensively for over 30 years to train my feel. If my swing feels wrong or results are not what I'm looking for, I go straight to the video to see what I'm doing wrong.

 

BT

[JAMH03]

After a day to think on this what really matters are the students and teachers levels of satisfaction. The ideal way to get there is actually a different question.

[BB28403]

No one understands physics except PHD graduates and even they only do after 40 years of working . And even then they have doubts.

Physics are just theories. Theories that are thought to be correct. No one knows if they are 100% correct. Based on the facts we have now , this is what we know as the human race.

For a Golf player, Coach, anyone other than a PHD , and even a PHD to say they TOTALLY understand physics , well that’s hogwash.

No one does. Einstein got as close to understanding reality (yes I know not physics) and quantum mechanics than anyone ever. And he still didn’t even crack the surface .

 

So no, tell this coach to suck an egg. No one knows, and so swing your swing buddy.

[Mike Divot]

I'm just a lowly midcapper trying to bogey my way through this cockamamie world with a par here and an occasional birdie there, but if there is one thing I've learned, it is that golf instruction and physics do not mix.

Nearly every time physics is brought in to the realm of golf instruction, the "science" is flat out WRONG and the instructor or advocate is talking through their hat.

(Try bringing up centrifugal force here on wrx, as an example.)

But by gum, they can sound convincing!

It takes a rare instructor to understand the physics behind the swing (or just physics generally!), and who can constrain themselves from inflicting on the student said knowledge. Does the student violin player need to know the difference between equal temperament and just temperament? If the teacher knows, it may help their teaching, but it doesn't follow that the student needs to know.

Gravity, forces, momentum, radius, even the humble vector, are oft spoken about with as much understanding as I have about the 1st synod of Tyre in 355 AD. But with much more conviction.

If they can manage to pull it off, more power to them. (Ultimately, the criterion must be, is the student playing better golf?) But, paradoxically, the use of physics in golf instruction seems to be regarded by some as a kind of magic talisman, a secret formula which will guarantee scratch. But by now, we should all realize, there is no secret formula.