USGA? Teen DQ'd from Sectional for going to the bathroom before turning in his scorecard

[dcmidnight]

When the "16 year old" has played in high level events, has a swing coach and a helicopter golf dad - yes, I make certain assumptions that he is not an "ordinary kid". They didn't pull this kid out of study hall and throw him into golf competition. To some extent - I'd argue a large extent - he knows exactly what is going on. This "kid" didn't play in a USGA qualifier and then magically discover that its expected of you to sign his card after the event. I think there's some presumption of innocence because the kid is 16.

 

Why no mention of the migraine or the medical reason at the time? By every single account - this would have completely changed the story. "Oh hey I am really sorry about that, I had a migraine attack and had to get my medication." All my previous comments aside about how he'd been sick for 1/3 of the round but had no meds with him - even the USGA implied if not outright stated that they would have not DQd him.

 

But the medical "side of the story" - never came out until after the fact and seemingly after the press stories picked up. Thats literally the first time any of his playing partners or USGA officials knew of any medical condition the kid may have had. If it was me and I was sick and had to run off like that and I realized how serious the situation was when I saw the NC next to my name - I'd be screaming my medication story to anyone that would listen.

 

> @davep043 said:

>I find it interesting that people will accuse the USGA of making self-serving statements, even of lying, while accepting everything the player and his father say at face value.

 

Exactly right. All of the players and officials involved have essentially the exact same version of the story.

[North Butte]

> @"North Texas" said:

> Here's the bottom line. The facts are totally immaterial in any story involving the USGA. Why? Because, no matter what the USGA is always wrong! When is everyone going to learn that? It is easily the most inept organization that has ever existed. Just ask golfwrx ;)

 

Sounds about right.

[tiderider]

> @"North Texas" said:

> Here's the bottom line. The facts are totally immaterial in any story involving the USGA. Why? Because, no matter what the USGA is always wrong! When is everyone going to learn that? It is easily the most inept organization that has ever existed. Just ask golfwrx ;)

 

i disagree that the kid was DQ'd, but the usga didn't make that decision ... the local amateur organization did ...

[widow-maker]

It appears that what the dad told the officials and what the dad later told the press were two different things. Hard to discern what really happened and we'll probably never know the true story. That being said, if you break a rule you suffer the consequences. Roberto DeVincenzo lost the Masters because his playing partner wrote the wrong score for a hole on his card. This is not one of those instances where you blame the USGA. You protect the field by evenly enforcing all of the rules. He apparently left without saying anything. Coming back with excuses after you've had time to think about it doesn't cut it.

[BiggErn]

> @"North Texas" said:

> Here's the bottom line. The facts are totally immaterial in any story involving the USGA. Why? Because, no matter what the USGA is always wrong! When is everyone going to learn that? It is easily the most inept organization that has ever existed. Just ask golfwrx ;)

 

When you set the precedent as being inept multiple times while supposedly being the greatest governing body then you deserve all the criticism you get.

[North Texas]

> @tiderider said:

> > @"North Texas" said:

> > Here's the bottom line. The facts are totally immaterial in any story involving the USGA. Why? Because, no matter what the USGA is always wrong! When is everyone going to learn that? It is easily the most inept organization that has ever existed. Just ask golfwrx ;)

>

> i disagree that the kid was DQ'd, but the usga didn't make that decision ... the local amateur organization did ...

 

Doesn't matter who actually made the decision. It's the USGA's fault. Always. Don't believe me. Just read the post above mine.

[GeorgeHWB]

> @"North Texas" said:

> Here's the bottom line. no matter what the USGA is always wrong! It is easily the most inept organization that has ever existed.

 

Agreed!!

 

 

[golfgirlrobin]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > > @caniac6 said:

> > > If Tiger can make it to the scorer's area on a broken leg, this kid can go there before he goes to the bathroom. The correct ruling was applied.

> >

> > Ha! Tigerrrrrrr!

> >

> > Actually, it will be good.

> >

> > This kid will grow up to be on the PGA Tour

> >

> > And rip the USGA every chance he gets ; )

> >

>

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > > @caniac6 said:

> > > If Tiger can make it to the scorer's area on a broken leg, this kid can go there before he goes to the bathroom. The correct ruling was applied.

> >

> > Ha! Tigerrrrrrr!

> >

> > Actually, it will be good.

> >

> > This kid will grow up to be on the PGA Tour

> >

> > And rip the USGA every chance he gets ; )

> >

>

> Yep. I just can’t help myself. This growing the game business is hilarious. A 16 year old playing with mostly grown men. He’s supposed to tell them “ hey guys ( who I’m intimidated by ) I need to go **** .... brb bros ! “. Wow.

>

> We as adults are supposed to teach kids. This was a teaching moment. A good old fashion ( hey boy ) verbal tirade with some public shame Thrown in would have happened 30 years ago and would have resulted in lesson learned. This taught him nothing except how to hate the USga. Period. No way he has a positive opinion of the group going forward. Not if he’s telling the truth and was sick. ( stomach head or both)

 

A USGA Sectional qualifier is not the place for teachable moments. It’s not the job of playing competitors or officials to babysit individuals, this is big business with guys literally playing for their careers. If you can’t communicate with officials on an adult level, you ought to stick with junior events until you get it figured out; that’s where the teachable moments take place. The USGA’s role is to provide an even playing field for all competitors, not to wander around parking lots looking for the only guy not to go straight to the scorer’s tent.

 

It’s not a sin to screw up, and wandering off for whatever reason without notifying officials is a screw up. Learn the lesson and move on.

 

[bladehunter]

> @golfgirlrobin said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @bscinstnct said:

> > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > If Tiger can make it to the scorer's area on a broken leg, this kid can go there before he goes to the bathroom. The correct ruling was applied.

> > >

> > > Ha! Tigerrrrrrr!

> > >

> > > Actually, it will be good.

> > >

> > > This kid will grow up to be on the PGA Tour

> > >

> > > And rip the USGA every chance he gets ; )

> > >

> >

> > > @bscinstnct said:

> > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > If Tiger can make it to the scorer's area on a broken leg, this kid can go there before he goes to the bathroom. The correct ruling was applied.

> > >

> > > Ha! Tigerrrrrrr!

> > >

> > > Actually, it will be good.

> > >

> > > This kid will grow up to be on the PGA Tour

> > >

> > > And rip the USGA every chance he gets ; )

> > >

> >

> > Yep. I just can’t help myself. This growing the game business is hilarious. A 16 year old playing with mostly grown men. He’s supposed to tell them “ hey guys ( who I’m intimidated by ) I need to go **** .... brb bros ! “. Wow.

> >

> > We as adults are supposed to teach kids. This was a teaching moment. A good old fashion ( hey boy ) verbal tirade with some public shame Thrown in would have happened 30 years ago and would have resulted in lesson learned. This taught him nothing except how to hate the USga. Period. No way he has a positive opinion of the group going forward. Not if he’s telling the truth and was sick. ( stomach head or both)

>

> A USGA Sectional qualifier is not the place for teachable moments. It’s not the job of playing competitors or officials to babysit individuals, this is big business with guys literally playing for their careers. If you can’t communicate with officials on an adult level, you ought to stick with junior events until you get it figured out; that’s where the teachable moments take place. The USGA’s role is to provide an even playing field for all competitors, not to wander around parking lots looking for the only guy not to go straight to the scorer’s tent.

>

> It’s not a sin to screw up, and wandering off for whatever reason without notifying officials is a screw up. Learn the lesson and move on.

>

 

So you’d adhere to one rule and ignore the other ?

 

Which I find funny. Adhere to the ambiguous rule and ignore the one that is clear cut ?

 

I did not suggest that anyone make any exception for him. I said that they should have considered all info IF indeed the guy was sick and then apply the rules as they are written. And the rule allows him time to recover before signing the card. The official said just that.

 

Edit - I appreciate your opinion. I just don’t agree. It’s been my experience in life that every second breathing is an opportunity for a teachable moment. The question then becomes .... what method do we use. The DQ teaches a lesson. Sure. I simply said that it taught the lesson of how short sighted a rules official can be. It reinforces the “ us vs them” mentality. Very similar to what a bad cop can do to a city etc. rules are written with a purpose. The purpose in this rule is to keep the pace of order moving. The article states that the group behind them hadn’t came off the green yet when he did turn the card in. So truthfully no order was interrupted. Just a minor hiccup in the process. It’s not a rule that is written to give the officials the power to wield without proper cause. Similar to a speed limit. Cops who sit over a rise and write tickets to drivers who are entering a 55 down to 35 speed zone and are slowing down. They are breaking the spirit of the law in my mind. The law is working if the drivers are adhering to the slow down. He’s simply cashing in on a technicality that the law assumes reasonable cops will understand. I see this as very much similar. The DQ shouldn’t even come into mind until it’s clear the guys gone and not coming back. 10 minutes is not to that point.

[RobS14526]

I’ve read the story a couple of times now and I keep missing the part where the player and/or his father apologize for any inconvenience that he may have caused the fellow players in his group on what was most likely one of the biggest days of their golf season.

 

They come off as incredibly tone deaf and seem to be missing the real “teaching moment”. I’d also be curious to find out how this became a story picked up by the press.

[dcmidnight]

> @bladehunter said:

> I did not suggest that anyone make any exception for him. I said that they **should have considered all info** IF indeed the guy was sick and then apply the rules as they are written. And the rule allows him time to recover before signing the card. The official said just that.

 

I think you're either missing or ignoring one of the main pieces of the story just to make your point. You are right, the USGA official did say that - I have provided the quotes below. But the kid and his dad - **no one told the officials at the time about the "medical reason" for him being missing.** The story clearly states this. He said nothing during the round, after the round or even while he was about to be DQd. The kids statement about a "medical reason" seems to have only appeared after the fact, after this became a big story.

 

What other information would you like the officials to consider, I'm honestly asking. It seems to me they considered every piece of information they were given at the time. In a situation like this with virtually no time between rounds, its not like they can hear this after the fact and change their minds.

 

If the kid truly had a "medical reason", why would he not mention it when questioned? Why wouldnt his dad mention the migraines - especially when it became clear he might be DQd. Neither of them said anything about it - to anyone - either before he took his break or afterwards, when he was about to be DQd. If you had a legitimate "medical reason", why wouldnt you mention it when you were on the firing line?

 

Yet people seem to want the officials to cut the kid a break for a situation that they knew nothing about.

 

Here's the piece of the article from USA Today:

 

======

 

Craig Winter, USGA Senior Director of Rules of Golf and Amateur Status, said Thursday the Woodmont sectional is run by the Middle Atlantic Golf Association, and the rule breach has never happened at that qualifier before.

 

Winter described how the disqualification came about based on what he learned from talking to officials who were on the ground Monday.

 

When the other two players in Fox's group arrived at the scorer's table, they didn't know where Fox was, Winter said. The amateur had been marking one of his partner's scorecards, so the other two pieced together his round on a blank scorecard while a short search began - "although nobody knew what he looked like," Winter said. "He's obviously a young player who hasn't played a lot in that area."

 

_Once Fox arrived at the scorer's table, the committee sought an explanation for what happened. Winter said there was no mention of a headache, and his 'no card' turned into a disqualification._

 

"That would have changed the calculus of what this whole situation looked like significantly," Winter said, referring to Fox's statement that he went to retrieve medicine for a headache. "It's well established in the rule that players, should they become suddenly ill, have time to figure out, recuperate, see if they can continue. And that's no different if you just started your round or you're returning to scoring."

[bscinstnct]

I’m speculating there was an element of ego on both sides.

 

Here is what was said by the USGA and I’m wondering if, based on this initial assumption, they decided to DQ him and then not want to give in or listen further.

 

If he did not go “to lunch”, why is the “manager of championship communications for the USGA” saying this to the press?

 

 

“Brian DePasquale, manager of championship communications for the USGA, confirmed Skyler Fox's disqualification, writing in an email to Golfweek that Fox "went to lunch and did not enter the scoring area until the following group had returned their cards."”

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2019/06/06/us-open-16-year-old-disqualified-medicine-using-bathroom/39550841/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ExTrumpet]

Didn't read every page--sorry--but what did the kid shoot? Was he gonna advance?

 

If not, it now just looks like a publicity stunt to draw attention to how rotten the ruling bodies are. But still, USGA sucks. Just ask Hank.

[bscinstnct]

> @ExTrumpet said:

> Didn't read every page--sorry--but what did the kid shoot? Was he gonna advance?

>

> If not, it now just looks like a publicity stunt to draw attention to how rotten the ruling bodies are. But still, USGA sucks. Just ask Hank.

 

 

USGA rules stipulate that you must read every post

 

Before commenting in a USGA thread

 

You are DQ from this thread. No appeals will be heard.

 

; )

 

 

[bladehunter]

> @bscinstnct said:

> I’m speculating there was an element of ego on both sides.

>

> Here is what was said by the USGA and I’m wondering if, based on this initial assumption, they decided to DQ him and then not want to give in or listen further.

>

> If he did not go “to lunch”, why is the “manager of championship communications for the USGA” saying this to the press?

>

>

> “Brian DePasquale, manager of championship communications for the USGA, confirmed Skyler Fox's disqualification, writing in an email to Golfweek that Fox "went to lunch and did not enter the scoring area until the following group had returned their cards."”

>

> https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2019/06/06/us-open-16-year-old-disqualified-medicine-using-bathroom/39550841/

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

Yes. So we have several points that don’t jive. The official claim that the group behind him had finished and posted their scores before he returned “ from lunch “. The player says that when he arrived back from the bathroom that his playing partners were just finishing their scoring and leaving and that the group behind HADNT REACHED THE 18TH GREEN YET. Which I saw yesterday when I read this. Pretty huge discrepancy. That is the reason it is impossible to take any of it at face value. And yet some just love the hall monitor position.

 

I said over and over that they all failed here. All. Dad coach player and officials. A s*** sandwich is very hard to make by yourself. Generally takes a lot of help.

[bladehunter]

> @dcmidnight said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > I did not suggest that anyone make any exception for him. I said that they **should have considered all info** IF indeed the guy was sick and then apply the rules as they are written. And the rule allows him time to recover before signing the card. The official said just that.

>

> I think you're either missing or ignoring one of the main pieces of the story just to make your point. You are right, the USGA official did say that - I have provided the quotes below. But the kid and his dad - **no one told the officials at the time about the "medical reason" for him being missing.** The story clearly states this. He said nothing during the round, after the round or even while he was about to be DQd. The kids statement about a "medical reason" seems to have only appeared after the fact, after this became a big story.

>

> What other information would you like the officials to consider, I'm honestly asking. It seems to me they considered every piece of information they were given at the time. In a situation like this with virtually no time between rounds, its not like they can hear this after the fact and change their minds.

>

> If the kid truly had a "medical reason", why would he not mention it when questioned? Why wouldnt his dad mention the migraines - especially when it became clear he might be DQd. Neither of them said anything about it - to anyone - either before he took his break or afterwards, when he was about to be DQd. If you had a legitimate "medical reason", why wouldnt you mention it when you were on the firing line?

>

> Yet people seem to want the officials to cut the kid a break for a situation that they knew nothing about.

>

> Here's the piece of the article from USA Today:

>

> ======

>

> Craig Winter, USGA Senior Director of Rules of Golf and Amateur Status, said Thursday the Woodmont sectional is run by the Middle Atlantic Golf Association, and the rule breach has never happened at that qualifier before.

>

> Winter described how the disqualification came about based on what he learned from talking to officials who were on the ground Monday.

>

> When the other two players in Fox's group arrived at the scorer's table, they didn't know where Fox was, Winter said. The amateur had been marking one of his partner's scorecards, so the other two pieced together his round on a blank scorecard while a short search began - "although nobody knew what he looked like," Winter said. "He's obviously a young player who hasn't played a lot in that area."

>

> _Once Fox arrived at the scorer's table, the committee sought an explanation for what happened. Winter said there was no mention of a headache, and his 'no card' turned into a disqualification._

>

> "That would have changed the calculus of what this whole situation looked like significantly," Winter said, referring to Fox's statement that he went to retrieve medicine for a headache. "It's well established in the rule that players, should they become suddenly ill, have time to figure out, recuperate, see if they can continue. And that's no different if you just started your round or you're returning to scoring."

 

Have you read all the conflicting accounts of this ? If so don’t you think the truth maybe somewhere in the middle ? Asking why the kid didn’t say anything to an official who’s just said “ kid you’re dqed for not turning in the cart in time “ is pretty short sighted. Especially since we know he had 2 adults there helping him screw it up. Like I said above. It’s a poop sandwich. But the official helped make it. If for no other reason than he obviously embellished the story. Think timeline. 10 minutes.

 

You think a 3 some is going to hit approaches , walk up and putt out , get to the scorers table and leave in 10 minutes ? bullxxxx. For that reason alone the official is lying about the time one way or another. Think people. Think.

[SNIPERBBB]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > I’m speculating there was an element of ego on both sides.

> >

> > Here is what was said by the USGA and I’m wondering if, based on this initial assumption, they decided to DQ him and then not want to give in or listen further.

> >

> > If he did not go “to lunch”, why is the “manager of championship communications for the USGA” saying this to the press?

> >

> >

> > “Brian DePasquale, manager of championship communications for the USGA, confirmed Skyler Fox's disqualification, writing in an email to Golfweek that Fox "went to lunch and did not enter the scoring area until the following group had returned their cards."”

> >

> > https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2019/06/06/us-open-16-year-old-disqualified-medicine-using-bathroom/39550841/

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Yes. So we have several points that don’t jive. The official claim that the group behind him had finished and posted their scores before he returned “ from lunch “. The player says that when he arrived back from the bathroom that his playing partners were just finishing their scoring and leaving and that the group behind HADNT REACHED THE 18TH GREEN YET. Which I saw yesterday when I read this. Pretty huge discrepancy. That is the reason it is impossible to take any of it at face value. And yet some just love the hall monitor position.

>

> I said over and over that they all failed here. All. Dad coach player and officials. A **** sandwich is very hard to make by yourself. Generally takes a lot of help.

 

Officials arent encouraged to be coaches in pretty much every sport I've ever officiated. In fact it's largely frowned upon. Got a question, we'll answer. We'll give warnings where appropriate but sometimes your better off going straight going to the penalization. We'll explain if we think it would help after you get whacked. But if you want to just complain, we'll just walk away... or send you on the heel'n'toe.

[golfandfishing]

I’m stealing the term @—hole sandwich”.

Indeed - the player ordered it, his dad paid the tab and the committee made it for them just like they asked.

 

> @bladehunter said:

> > @bscinstnct said:

> > I’m speculating there was an element of ego on both sides.

> >

> > Here is what was said by the USGA and I’m wondering if, based on this initial assumption, they decided to DQ him and then not want to give in or listen further.

> >

> > If he did not go “to lunch”, why is the “manager of championship communications for the USGA” saying this to the press?

> >

> >

> > “Brian DePasquale, manager of championship communications for the USGA, confirmed Skyler Fox's disqualification, writing in an email to Golfweek that Fox "went to lunch and did not enter the scoring area until the following group had returned their cards."”

> >

> > https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2019/06/06/us-open-16-year-old-disqualified-medicine-using-bathroom/39550841/

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Yes. So we have several points that don’t jive. The official claim that the group behind him had finished and posted their scores before he returned “ from lunch “. The player says that when he arrived back from the bathroom that his playing partners were just finishing their scoring and leaving and that the group behind HADNT REACHED THE 18TH GREEN YET. Which I saw yesterday when I read this. Pretty huge discrepancy. That is the reason it is impossible to take any of it at face value. And yet some just love the hall monitor position.

>

> I said over and over that they all failed here. All. Dad coach player and officials. A **** sandwich is very hard to make by yourself. Generally takes a lot of help.

 

 

[bscinstnct]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @bscinstnct said:

> > > I’m speculating there was an element of ego on both sides.

> > >

> > > Here is what was said by the USGA and I’m wondering if, based on this initial assumption, they decided to DQ him and then not want to give in or listen further.

> > >

> > > If he did not go “to lunch”, why is the “manager of championship communications for the USGA” saying this to the press?

> > >

> > >

> > > “Brian DePasquale, manager of championship communications for the USGA, confirmed Skyler Fox's disqualification, writing in an email to Golfweek that Fox "went to lunch and did not enter the scoring area until the following group had returned their cards."”

> > >

> > > https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2019/06/06/us-open-16-year-old-disqualified-medicine-using-bathroom/39550841/

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yes. So we have several points that don’t jive. The official claim that the group behind him had finished and posted their scores before he returned “ from lunch “. The player says that when he arrived back from the bathroom that his playing partners were just finishing their scoring and leaving and that the group behind HADNT REACHED THE 18TH GREEN YET. Which I saw yesterday when I read this. Pretty huge discrepancy. That is the reason it is impossible to take any of it at face value. And yet some just love the hall monitor position.

> >

> > I said over and over that they all failed here. All. Dad coach player and officials. A **** sandwich is very hard to make by yourself. Generally takes a lot of help.

>

> Officials arent encouraged to be coaches in pretty much every sport I've ever officiated. In fact it's largely frowned upon. Got a question, we'll answer. We'll give warnings where appropriate but sometimes your better off going straight going to the penalization. We'll explain if we think it would help after you get whacked. But if you want to just complain, we'll just walk away... or send you on the heel'n'toe.

 

 

Yes, officials have to be firm. No issue

 

But they still screw up and make bad calls. And some are downright incompetent. Right?

 

And in this case, the director of communications is telling the media that the player “went to lunch”

 

If he didn’t, how do you account for and remedy the incompetence?

[BNGL]

> @golfandfishing said:

> “why the **** does he get DQ'd? It's not as if he tried to cheat.”

>

> You don’t have to try to cheat to get DQ’d, that’s silly. If you show up 6 minutes late for your tee time it’s DQ, obviously no intent to cheat there. Tons of situations lead to DQ that don’t imply or require cheating. Cheating at the level of this event is almost unheard of, but DQ happens frequently. It’s the result of rules actually being enforced by a ruling body, not cheating by the players.

 

Full disclosure I haven’t read the article or the story or anything other than this thread. I wanna try this fire off the hip with no information thing...

 

While I do feel bad for him, or for anyone that was disqualified for that matter, every tournament I have played in you do two things at the end; check your card sign your card. And I have definitely swung by the locker room before, but always after a quick “hey gotta stop in the locker room quick be right back.”

 

I also wonder if there was an incident before this? As in he mouthed off to an official or whatever. Because I have seen that in some junior golf unfortunately even professional events (I’m guilty I mentioned this elsewhere but I torched a marshall at an event one time not my finest moment). I remember one year at the Florida Open playing partner berated an official over a ruling Saturday, he was in good position too, he was late Sunday and he got popped two strokes (it was borderline if he was 5 seconds late I’d be surprised, he was in the group in front and had wanted to hit some extra putts or whatever and sauntered over right at his starting time, and for anyone that’s played FSGA events you know they have the big square digital satellite clocks under the tent)...but guess who the starter was? Mister Official from the day before. Every time I see that particular gentleman he always says you played with Tyler so and so that time didn’t you? It’s unfortunate that officials can’t be impartial but it is human nature to hold a grudge and be more strict with those we don’t care for if that makes sense.

 

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @bscinstnct said:

> > > > I’m speculating there was an element of ego on both sides.

> > > >

> > > > Here is what was said by the USGA and I’m wondering if, based on this initial assumption, they decided to DQ him and then not want to give in or listen further.

> > > >

> > > > If he did not go “to lunch”, why is the “manager of championship communications for the USGA” saying this to the press?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > “Brian DePasquale, manager of championship communications for the USGA, confirmed Skyler Fox's disqualification, writing in an email to Golfweek that Fox "went to lunch and did not enter the scoring area until the following group had returned their cards."”

> > > >

> > > > https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2019/06/06/us-open-16-year-old-disqualified-medicine-using-bathroom/39550841/

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yes. So we have several points that don’t jive. The official claim that the group behind him had finished and posted their scores before he returned “ from lunch “. The player says that when he arrived back from the bathroom that his playing partners were just finishing their scoring and leaving and that the group behind HADNT REACHED THE 18TH GREEN YET. Which I saw yesterday when I read this. Pretty huge discrepancy. That is the reason it is impossible to take any of it at face value. And yet some just love the hall monitor position.

> > >

> > > I said over and over that they all failed here. All. Dad coach player and officials. A **** sandwich is very hard to make by yourself. Generally takes a lot of help.

> >

> > Officials arent encouraged to be coaches in pretty much every sport I've ever officiated. In fact it's largely frowned upon. Got a question, we'll answer. We'll give warnings where appropriate but sometimes your better off going straight going to the penalization. We'll explain if we think it would help after you get whacked. But if you want to just complain, we'll just walk away... or send you on the heel'n'toe.

>

>

> Yes, officials have to be firm. No issue

>

> But they still screw up and make bad calls. And some are downright incompetent. Right?

 

An aside here but sweet picture in your profile!

[SNIPERBBB]

Of course, but we learn from them. Well most of us do anyways.

 

As to this story, I've yet to see where they are wrong here.

[Pepperturbo]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I read and cited that very quote 3 pages ago. And I asked why it wasn’t a good reason to revisit the DQ ? Why does the medical issue have to be reported ahead of the treatment ? Does the rule state this ? Nobody says. Now you cite the quote in support of the USga ? Lol. My questions are still there.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To me, a quick statement to the officials, or even to one of the other players, before running to the head and to get meds is a "reason". To claim a medical emergency after the fact (if a headache he's had for 2 hours or so can be an emergency), or even a bathroom emergency, sounds more like an "excuse". If he indeed made a detour to get a bite to eat, and to take a gander at the scoreboards before he went to turn in his card, that would be unnecessary delay in my book. And based on what I read, neither the player nor his father say that they brought up the pit stop and meds during the discussion with the officials, that came out during interviews with the press.

> > > > > > But I don't know about the potential for a DQ to be overturned. If its a possibility, how do the officials weigh additional stops after the "emergency" issues are taken care of.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well first off. I think “ went to eat lunch “ is as much or more hearsay as any other part of the article. Nobody anywhere says the kid came back eating a corn dog. That was just a flippant comment by the official .... like saying “ he’s out to lunch “ meaning ...gone.

> > > > >

> > > > > But hey. Whatever I guess. Without being there it’s hard to say for sure. The kid May have been a silver spoon cake eater who deserved it for being defiant. I don’t know. But what I do know is that the USga has more instances of things like this than any organization I can name. Grey area rules descriptions that are enforced with an iron fist , and a side of “ if you’d only knocked 3 times and said the magic words we’d have made an exception “. The rule doesn’t stipulate anything except “ prompt “ which is defined as being “ done without delay, immediate “. But yet offers an imaginary exception for medical reasons , which apparently has to be applied for before the emergency. I don’t know about you guys. But when a case of the trots hits I don’t have time to bow and scrape to an official in a tent . I gots to go. The very definition of emergency would lead one to believe there isn’t time for explanation.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again. We don’t know. But we do know that 2 wrongs never make a right.

> > > >

> > > > Couldn't he have told his playing partners walking off the 18th? Can't say I've heard of many emergencies that would have prevented a quick "gotta use the head, be there in 15" short of cardiac arrest or an aneurysm which people may have noticed.

> > >

> > > Anything is possible in either direction. We don’t know the dynamic between players during the round. We don’t know the direction of bathrooms vs the other players and the scoring area. A lot of unknowns. It’s just not a cut and dried situation. At all. And to me in a vague situation with no clear chain of evidence etc 10 minutes isn’t outside of “ prompt”.

> > >

> > > I also find it odd that a. Omnipresent force like a USga official can have the power to DQ after 8-10 minutes and yet be absent the power to reconsider once more info comes in. One would think that a rules stickler would indeed be interested in all rules being adhered to not just the ones that bring that rush of satisfaction that a DQ apparently brings.

> > >

> > > What I’m saying is , if indeed a medical issue existed , isn’t the committee breaking its own rule by not allowing time for recovery , BEFORE card signing ? This is from the officials mouth via quote. I don’t see the time at which The info becomes known to make any difference so long as it came in before the next round.

> >

> > USGA, PGA, and LPGA officials are equivalent to officials in other sports. Once a call has been made on the football field or by the umpire, even later after the video has been reviewed, the call is seldom recanted. It's the nature of the "official" beast. As I stated in my post and in the article, when the boy was asked what he was doing for 15mins, he didn't say anything about being ill. There are specific rules that address being ill during a tournament. As for your ladder statement about the flexibility of time, there has to be a time limit to protect the field. Otherwise, it would be abused. Remember, players, keep each others scorecards and attest. Using your line of thought, the three other playing partners would have to sit and wait for the kid to get to the table. I've played in many amateur events and a few qualifiers and can attest, wouldn't like having to sit around and wait for someone to show up at the scoring tent. I've also been in the scores tent and a party to two guys being DQ'd. It's not enjoyable at times to follow the letter of the rules.

> >

> > It surprises me how many people on Golfwrx argue against rules and consequences.

> >

>

> It’s not that I argue against rules and consequences. It’s that I believe the rule to lend the committee too much leave for interpretation. Why not just put it on a 5 minute clock ? Over and 2 shots. Over 7 DQ. Or similar. No judgment call needed. That’s assuming an official knows when they finish 18. If no official knows this. Then ?? Wth are we even talking about? Lol.

 

"Too much leave for interpretation and minute clock." The rules affect so many different people, leadership is forced to address every possibility. Even then people are not satisfied.

 

Even though I agree with you it's difficult to quantify "how much is too much or not enough" and still do the job. When humans are involved nothing can be exact and suit all involved. When USGA changes a rule, regardless of which way it leans, note how many people have a conniption on this board. Funny, at the venues I frequent, nobody says much. They simply go about playing by the rules.

[bladehunter]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I read and cited that very quote 3 pages ago. And I asked why it wasn’t a good reason to revisit the DQ ? Why does the medical issue have to be reported ahead of the treatment ? Does the rule state this ? Nobody says. Now you cite the quote in support of the USga ? Lol. My questions are still there.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > To me, a quick statement to the officials, or even to one of the other players, before running to the head and to get meds is a "reason". To claim a medical emergency after the fact (if a headache he's had for 2 hours or so can be an emergency), or even a bathroom emergency, sounds more like an "excuse". If he indeed made a detour to get a bite to eat, and to take a gander at the scoreboards before he went to turn in his card, that would be unnecessary delay in my book. And based on what I read, neither the player nor his father say that they brought up the pit stop and meds during the discussion with the officials, that came out during interviews with the press.

> > > > > > > But I don't know about the potential for a DQ to be overturned. If its a possibility, how do the officials weigh additional stops after the "emergency" issues are taken care of.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Well first off. I think “ went to eat lunch “ is as much or more hearsay as any other part of the article. Nobody anywhere says the kid came back eating a corn dog. That was just a flippant comment by the official .... like saying “ he’s out to lunch “ meaning ...gone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But hey. Whatever I guess. Without being there it’s hard to say for sure. The kid May have been a silver spoon cake eater who deserved it for being defiant. I don’t know. But what I do know is that the USga has more instances of things like this than any organization I can name. Grey area rules descriptions that are enforced with an iron fist , and a side of “ if you’d only knocked 3 times and said the magic words we’d have made an exception “. The rule doesn’t stipulate anything except “ prompt “ which is defined as being “ done without delay, immediate “. But yet offers an imaginary exception for medical reasons , which apparently has to be applied for before the emergency. I don’t know about you guys. But when a case of the trots hits I don’t have time to bow and scrape to an official in a tent . I gots to go. The very definition of emergency would lead one to believe there isn’t time for explanation.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again. We don’t know. But we do know that 2 wrongs never make a right.

> > > > >

> > > > > Couldn't he have told his playing partners walking off the 18th? Can't say I've heard of many emergencies that would have prevented a quick "gotta use the head, be there in 15" short of cardiac arrest or an aneurysm which people may have noticed.

> > > >

> > > > Anything is possible in either direction. We don’t know the dynamic between players during the round. We don’t know the direction of bathrooms vs the other players and the scoring area. A lot of unknowns. It’s just not a cut and dried situation. At all. And to me in a vague situation with no clear chain of evidence etc 10 minutes isn’t outside of “ prompt”.

> > > >

> > > > I also find it odd that a. Omnipresent force like a USga official can have the power to DQ after 8-10 minutes and yet be absent the power to reconsider once more info comes in. One would think that a rules stickler would indeed be interested in all rules being adhered to not just the ones that bring that rush of satisfaction that a DQ apparently brings.

> > > >

> > > > What I’m saying is , if indeed a medical issue existed , isn’t the committee breaking its own rule by not allowing time for recovery , BEFORE card signing ? This is from the officials mouth via quote. I don’t see the time at which The info becomes known to make any difference so long as it came in before the next round.

> > >

> > > USGA, PGA, and LPGA officials are equivalent to officials in other sports. Once a call has been made on the football field or by the umpire, even later after the video has been reviewed, the call is seldom recanted. It's the nature of the "official" beast. As I stated in my post and in the article, when the boy was asked what he was doing for 15mins, he didn't say anything about being ill. There are specific rules that address being ill during a tournament. As for your ladder statement about the flexibility of time, there has to be a time limit to protect the field. Otherwise, it would be abused. Remember, players, keep each others scorecards and attest. Using your line of thought, the three other playing partners would have to sit and wait for the kid to get to the table. I've played in many amateur events and a few qualifiers and can attest, wouldn't like having to sit around and wait for someone to show up at the scoring tent. I've also been in the scores tent and a party to two guys being DQ'd. It's not enjoyable at times to follow the letter of the rules.

> > >

> > > It surprises me how many people on Golfwrx argue against rules and consequences.

> > >

> >

> > It’s not that I argue against rules and consequences. It’s that I believe the rule to lend the committee too much leave for interpretation. Why not just put it on a 5 minute clock ? Over and 2 shots. Over 7 DQ. Or similar. No judgment call needed. That’s assuming an official knows when they finish 18. If no official knows this. Then ?? Wth are we even talking about? Lol.

>

> "Too much leave for interpretation and minute clock." The rules affect so many different people, leadership is forced to address every possibility. Even then people are not satisfied.

>

> Even though I agree with you it's difficult to quantify "how much is too much or not enough" and still do the job. When humans are involved nothing can be exact and suit all involved. When USGA changes a rule, regardless of which way it leans, note how many people have a conniption on this board. Funny, at the venues I frequent, nobody says much. They simply go about playing by the rules.

 

Yea I hear that. But what you have to realize is that half the gripes here are from actual players of these events. You can’t gripe at the event. If so you’re toast. As a player and with the committee.

[bladehunter]

> @golfandfishing said:

> I’m stealing the term @—hole sandwich”.

> Indeed - the player ordered it, his dad paid the tab and the committee made it for them just like they asked.

>

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @bscinstnct said:

> > > I’m speculating there was an element of ego on both sides.

> > >

> > > Here is what was said by the USGA and I’m wondering if, based on this initial assumption, they decided to DQ him and then not want to give in or listen further.

> > >

> > > If he did not go “to lunch”, why is the “manager of championship communications for the USGA” saying this to the press?

> > >

> > >

> > > “Brian DePasquale, manager of championship communications for the USGA, confirmed Skyler Fox's disqualification, writing in an email to Golfweek that Fox "went to lunch and did not enter the scoring area until the following group had returned their cards."”

> > >

> > > https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2019/06/06/us-open-16-year-old-disqualified-medicine-using-bathroom/39550841/

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yes. So we have several points that don’t jive. The official claim that the group behind him had finished and posted their scores before he returned “ from lunch “. The player says that when he arrived back from the bathroom that his playing partners were just finishing their scoring and leaving and that the group behind HADNT REACHED THE 18TH GREEN YET. Which I saw yesterday when I read this. Pretty huge discrepancy. That is the reason it is impossible to take any of it at face value. And yet some just love the hall monitor position.

> >

> > I said over and over that they all failed here. All. Dad coach player and officials. A **** sandwich is very hard to make by yourself. Generally takes a lot of help.

>

>

 

 

Loll feel free.

 

Saying that he shouldn't have been popped isn’t my main point at all. I’m just pointing out how many people including the officials in charge can’t either recount the story accurately or act appropriately during they scenario.

 

Read between he lines and there are several snide jabs from the official. One is the “ out to lunch “ nonsense. Two is the mention that it’s a huge privilege that this lowly amateur be able to play in this event to possibly qualify for the national championship. “ and we don’t take that lightly “. Lol. I can smell his attitude.

 

And dad. What a boob. Come on man. I just hate when a group of adults manage to FuBAr something to this degree. Sure the kid is the root player. And ultimately paid. So you can’t say he didn’t get held accountable. I just see soooo many opportunities to act Better by all even if the penalty stayed the same.

[dcmidnight]

I care less about the timeframe and more about why this mysterious migraine condition was never mentioned at the event itself. The kid and his dad - now - seem to be making this a big part of the story. And yet not one of his playing partners knew about it at the time. He never mentioned it during the round. And after the fact, even when he was called out - he didnt say anything. The USGA clearly implies/says this would - or could, depending on your interpretation of their statement - have made all the difference.

 

Why wouldnt he just tell them exactly what happened? He wasnt off doing anything illegal, he was just grabbing some meds. "Hey kid where were you? Oh you had a migraine? Man, that sucks. OK well lets talk about that, you really should have been quicker getting back but you have a medical condition so thats probably fine." If its me and I realized I made a horrible mistake, I wouldnt shutup about what exactly had happened.

 

I'm honestly to the point that I feel bad for the kid but I'm so curious as to why he didnt say anything about this.

 

People want to project their irritation with the USGA onto this issue is nonsense too. They had nothing to do with it. This was being run by the Mid Atlantic Golf Association.

 

Like I said, I'm less interested in the timeframe and whether it was ten or fifteen minutes - either is too long. He finished his round, said nothing to his playing partners and in some order - went to his car to get his medication, went into the clubhouse to use the bathroom, went back outside to check the scoreboard where he then saw the NC on the board and *then* walked back to the scoring table - in some semblance of that order - before he thought about signing his card. There are conflicting reports about whether or not he also had lunch in that timeframe too.

 

Thats on him.

[bscinstnct]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> Of course, but we learn from them. Well most of us do anyways.

>

> As to this story, I've yet to see where they are wrong here.

 

 

Well, lets start with this,

 

“Brian DePasquale, manager of championship communications for the USGA, confirmed Skyler Fox's disqualification, writing in an email to Golfweek that Fox "went to lunch and did not enter the scoring area until the following group had returned their cards."”

 

 

So, if he did not go to lunch

Why is the “manager of championship communications for the USGA” making a written communication to Golfweek that he did?

 

The statement is either

 

Correct or not correct.

 

If it is not correct, then it is a

 

False statement made by a USGA communications manager? A false statement, not necessarily intentional, but quite an error for a communication manager.

 

 

Why was it made? Why hasn’t it been retracted?

 

 

 

 

 

[lenman73]

I am no fan of the USGA but in this case, them or whoever the ruling body was is in the clear. As a father myself, I could see emotions running high and wanting a different outcome for my child, but in life I am honest to a fault and do my best to teach my child to be within the rules. If a rule is broke, there will be consequences in golf and also in life. Next time say something or go sign the dam card. Seems a little more simple than 5 pages on here makes it out to be.

[Philomathesq]

> @ExTrumpet said:

> Didn't read every page--sorry--but what did the kid shoot? Was he gonna advance?

>

> If not, it now just looks like a publicity stunt to draw attention to how rotten the ruling bodies are. But still, USGA sucks. Just ask Hank.

 

It looks like he would have been T12. He likely would not have qualified, but he wasn't completely out of it, either.

[Philomathesq]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > Of course, but we learn from them. Well most of us do anyways.

> >

> > As to this story, I've yet to see where they are wrong here.

>

>

> Well, lets start with this,

>

> “Brian DePasquale, manager of championship communications for the USGA, confirmed Skyler Fox's disqualification, writing in an email to Golfweek that Fox "went to lunch and did not enter the scoring area until the following group had returned their cards."”

>

>

> So, if he did not go to lunch

> Why is the “manager of championship communications for the USGA” making a written communication to Golfweek that he did?

>

> The statement is either

>

> Correct or not correct.

>

> If it is not correct, then it is a

>

> False statement made by a USGA communications manager? A false statement, not necessarily intentional, but quite an error for a communication manager.

>

>

> Why was it made? Why hasn’t it been retracted?

 

Well, let's also keep in mind this great quote from the USGA communications manager: “nobody knew what he looked like.” I'd like someone to explain how this statement is true. We know that he played with two other people, both of whom would have presumably known what he looked like. Apparently, the player's dad and swing coach were in the vicinity of the scorer's table, and they likely know what he looks like.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that there a bunch of facts that don't add up, and I see no reason to give the benefit of the doubt to the USGA when they have not earned that right; in fact, they have shown that they make false statements and then have to retract them.

 

I'm not saying the kid is completely blameless, because he is not. However, this situation could have been handled much differently and in a way that didn't leave the USGA open to attack.

[dcmidnight]

> @Philomathesq said:

> I'm not saying the kid is completely blameless, because he is not. However, this situation could have been handled much differently and in a way that didn't leave the USGA open to attack.

 

Explain how. Honestly, I would like to know what people would have liked done here in a case where no one on site was told about his medical excuse and this only came out in press reports after the fact. It seems like the only thing that would make people happy would be the kid getting a complete pass because to me that is the only thing "differently" that could have been done.

 

The only way I'm giving the kid a pass is if it was some kid off the street who was completely new to golf tournaments and knew nothing about how high level golf events worked. Its just silly to try and think that is the case here. There is almost no realistic argument that could be made that the "kid" didnt know about the importance of signing your card after the event. You can define "promptly" however you want. But you combine his complete lack of communication to his playing partners and in some order he went to his car, into the clubhouse to use the bathroom, back outside to look at the scoreboard - and then decided to sign his card. And he may or may not have grabbed lunch.

 

And the whole time - his playing partners are standing in the scorers area just twiddling their thumbs wondering where the heck he was. And BTW, its extremely disrespectful if you are the player he was marking for whos then standing around, wondering wtf is going on and waiting to get his card signed off on.

 

Again - it seems like people with blinding hatred for the USGA want to project that onto the actions taken by onsite personnel. Which makes no sense since the USGA had nothing to do with the onsite event or actions.