USGA? Teen DQ'd from Sectional for going to the bathroom before turning in his scorecard

[sui generis]

Anyone who's played ANY level of competitive golf knows to leave the putting green of the final hole and accompany the players with whom he has just played the round to the designated scoring area. It takes seven minutes max to check the 18 numbers in the 18 boxes and apply two signatures to the scorecard. Not doing so is not "promptly." Many kids learn by their mistakes.

[Philomathesq]

@"sui generis", I just noticed the quote in your signature. Is that something you recently added, or has it been there awhile? If it was there before today, how a pro pos!

[bladehunter]

> @Philomathesq said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > R3.3 clearly states "Must certify the hole scores on the scorecard and promptly return it to the Committee . . . ."

> >

> > Children get themselves disqualified often

>

> I have to assume by your name that you are an attorney, for which I apologize. :-) Clearly, you can see that the rule uses the word "promptly" which is ambiguous. 10 minutes, in my opinion, is not prima facie imprompt (unprompt?). To draw a corollary to the law, I just had a huge dispute in federal court regarding the 2015 updates to FRCP 37(e) and penalties for spoliation. The updates basically install a new regime for spoliation: No Harm, No Foul. I'm ok with that. What harm was caused by this kid's bathroom break? If no harm, why the **** does he get DQ'd? It's not as if he tried to cheat.

 

Great points. My guess is that a committee member got a bee in his knickers because they had to “ look for the kid “. Jumped to the conclusion that he’d left and took the card . The official makes mention of the fact that if he had told him that he was ill then “ that’s a horse of a different color “ and that the rules allow for him time to recover. So knowing that it begs the question , why wasn’t the DQ reversed in favor of a time allowance for being ill? Would the player need to state it on bended knee ? Lol ...mother may I ? Or ?

 

I wonder what the penalty is for leaving a deposit beside the scorers table ? Lol. I mean 10 min ? Goodness. That has to be the most on time and aware scoring tent I’ve ever been in. Most times when I finish anything there’s a line to stand in , you could order a sandwich and take a poop and still not be late .

[Nessism]

> @tatertot said:

> > @Nessism said:

> > BS ruling. Typical USGA. Story said he has medicine for headaches so probably migraines. Anyone that suffers that type of headache knows how much discomfort they can cause. It's not like aspirin is "his medicine". The USGA just can't get over themselves sometimes.

>

> I suffer migraines ... 5 minutes isn't going to make a difference on medication. Something is "off" on this story. Why wouldn't he just stop, sign his card and turn it in before taking medication/relieving himself/getting lunch.

 

Because he's 16.

And one man's migraines are not anothers. There are many different manifestations of the illness.

[golfandfishing]

“why the **** does he get DQ'd? It's not as if he tried to cheat.”

 

You don’t have to try to cheat to get DQ’d, that’s silly. If you show up 6 minutes late for your tee time it’s DQ, obviously no intent to cheat there. Tons of situations lead to DQ that don’t imply or require cheating. Cheating at the level of this event is almost unheard of, but DQ happens frequently. It’s the result of rules actually being enforced by a ruling body, not cheating by the players.

[sui generis]

> @Philomathesq said:

> @"sui generis", I just noticed the quote in your signature. Is that something you recently added, or has it been there awhile? If it was there before today, how a pro pos!

 

Do your homework. You'll find my signature has been just that from Day 1.

[Philomathesq]

> @golfandfishing said:

> “why the **** does he get DQ'd? It's not as if he tried to cheat.”

>

> You don’t have to try to cheat to get DQ’d, that’s silly. If you show up 6 minutes late for your tee time it’s DQ, obviously no intent to cheat there. Tons of situations lead to DQ that don’t imply or require cheating. Cheating at the level of this event is almost unheard of, but DQ happens frequently. It’s the result of rules actually being enforced by a ruling body, not cheating by the players.

 

That illustrates my point. Why have a rule, that has never been enforced at this particular sectional before (per the USGA), that results in a DQ for something that happened after the round has ended? DQ'ing someone who doesn't show up to play the game makes sense. DQ'ing someone who had to grab medicine/take a piss before turning in his scorecard is not a reasonable enforcement of the rule. This is especially true when the USGA representative said that had they been aware of the kids headache he likely wouldn't have been DQ'd.

[Philomathesq]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @Philomathesq said:

> > @"sui generis", I just noticed the quote in your signature. Is that something you recently added, or has it been there awhile? If it was there before today, how a pro pos!

>

> **Do your homework.** You'll find my signature has been just that from Day 1.

 

And how would I do that? Signatures dynamically update. So, if you changed it today, all your prior posts would show the change. And, since I don't have a crystal ball, I can't really go back to the first day you joined the site to see if your signature was the same.

[North Texas]

> @"Mr. Hogan" said:c

> The USGA is disgrace.

 

Yes, it's already obvious that Pebble Beach will be an absolute disaster. Don't know why everyone can't already see that. After all, they have messed up every US Open that has ever been played. Ever.

[golfandfishing]

Is there a place where we can read an accurate account of what happened? Several different versions are already present in the thread. USGA did this, kid did that, kid was dillywhapping at the scoreboard, USGA regrets their error...... Does anyone know what actually happened without disparaging the USGA or kids these days?

 

> @Philomathesq said:

> > @golfandfishing said:

> > “why the **** does he get DQ'd? It's not as if he tried to cheat.”

> >

> > You don’t have to try to cheat to get DQ’d, that’s silly. If you show up 6 minutes late for your tee time it’s DQ, obviously no intent to cheat there. Tons of situations lead to DQ that don’t imply or require cheating. Cheating at the level of this event is almost unheard of, but DQ happens frequently. It’s the result of rules actually being enforced by a ruling body, not cheating by the players.

>

> That illustrates my point. Why have a rule, that has never been enforced at this particular sectional before (per the USGA), that results in a DQ for something that happened after the round has ended? DQ'ing someone who doesn't show up to play the game makes sense. DQ'ing someone who had to grab medicine/take a **** before turning in his scorecard is not a reasonable enforcement of the rule. This is especially true when the USGA representative said that had they been aware of the kids headache he likely wouldn't have been DQ'd.

 

 

[bscinstnct]

USGA rules clearly stipulate...

 

Get a Doctors note if It will be more that 3 minutes to turn in your card

 

A rule is a rule

 

[BiggErn]

> @Philomathesq said:

> > @golfandfishing said:

> > “why the **** does he get DQ'd? It's not as if he tried to cheat.”

> >

> > You don’t have to try to cheat to get DQ’d, that’s silly. If you show up 6 minutes late for your tee time it’s DQ, obviously no intent to cheat there. Tons of situations lead to DQ that don’t imply or require cheating. Cheating at the level of this event is almost unheard of, but DQ happens frequently. It’s the result of rules actually being enforced by a ruling body, not cheating by the players.

>

> That illustrates my point. Why have a rule, that has never been enforced at this particular sectional before (per the USGA), that results in a DQ for something that happened after the round has ended? DQ'ing someone who doesn't show up to play the game makes sense. DQ'ing someone who had to grab medicine/take a **** before turning in his scorecard is not a reasonable enforcement of the rule. This is especially true when the USGA representative said that had they been aware of the kids headache he likely wouldn't have been DQ'd.

 

The official must also be a message board mod.

[sui generis]

> @Philomathesq said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @Philomathesq said:

> > > @"sui generis", I just noticed the quote in your signature. Is that something you recently added, or has it been there awhile? If it was there before today, how a pro pos!

> >

> > **Do your homework.** You'll find my signature has been just that from Day 1.

>

> And how would I do that? Signatures dynamically update. So, if you changed it today, all your prior posts would show the change. And, since I don't have a crystal ball, I can't really go back to the first day you joined the site to see if your signature was the same.

 

Let's leave it, as your remarks suggest that you're unfamiliar with competitive golf.

[North Texas]

> @golfandfishing said:

> Is there a place where we can read an accurate account of what happened? Several different versions are already present in the thread. USGA did this, kid did that, kid was dillywhapping at the scoreboard, USGA regrets their error...... Does anyone know what actually happened without disparaging the USGA or kids these days?

>

> > @Philomathesq said:

> > > @golfandfishing said:

> > > “why the **** does he get DQ'd? It's not as if he tried to cheat.”

> > >

> > > You don’t have to try to cheat to get DQ’d, that’s silly. If you show up 6 minutes late for your tee time it’s DQ, obviously no intent to cheat there. Tons of situations lead to DQ that don’t imply or require cheating. Cheating at the level of this event is almost unheard of, but DQ happens frequently. It’s the result of rules actually being enforced by a ruling body, not cheating by the players.

> >

> > That illustrates my point. Why have a rule, that has never been enforced at this particular sectional before (per the USGA), that results in a DQ for something that happened after the round has ended? DQ'ing someone who doesn't show up to play the game makes sense. DQ'ing someone who had to grab medicine/take a **** before turning in his scorecard is not a reasonable enforcement of the rule. This is especially true when the USGA representative said that had they been aware of the kids headache he likely wouldn't have been DQ'd.

>

>

 

An accurate account of what happened absolutly does not matter. The USGA messed up plain and simple. If the facts don't support that, then something has to be made up to support it. The USGA has never and will never do anything right again.

 

 

[Philomathesq]

> @golfandfishing said:

> Is there a place where we can read an accurate account of what happened? Several different versions are already present in the thread. USGA did this, kid did that, kid was dillywhapping at the scoreboard, USGA regrets their error...... Does anyone know what actually happened without disparaging the USGA or kids these days?

 

I don't know that we'll ever get an accurate account of what happened. But, the article linked in the first post seems to be the best we are going to get. The problem is that the DQ'd player, his dad, and swing coach have a different version of events than the USGA.

[North Texas]

> @Philomathesq said:

> > @golfandfishing said:

> > Is there a place where we can read an accurate account of what happened? Several different versions are already present in the thread. USGA did this, kid did that, kid was dillywhapping at the scoreboard, USGA regrets their error...... Does anyone know what actually happened without disparaging the USGA or kids these days?

>

> I don't know that we'll ever get an accurate account of what happened. But, the article linked in the first post seems to be the best we are going to get. The problem is that the DQ'd player, his dad, and swing coach have a different version of events than the USGA.

 

Shocked that there are different versions of events.

[tatertot]

> @Philomathesq said:

> > @golfandfishing said:

> > Is there a place where we can read an accurate account of what happened? Several different versions are already present in the thread. USGA did this, kid did that, kid was dillywhapping at the scoreboard, USGA regrets their error...... Does anyone know what actually happened without disparaging the USGA or kids these days?

>

> I don't know that we'll ever get an accurate account of what happened. But, the article linked in the first post seems to be the best we are going to get. The problem is that the DQ'd player, his dad, and swing coach have a different version of events than the USGA.

 

Of course they do. Like much of society, it's not their fault and they shouldn't be blamed for going outside the rules.

 

The only thing we KNOW ... If the player had stopped and turned in his card LIKE EVERY OTHER PLAYER DID he doesn't get DQ'd.

[Nessism]

> @"North Texas" said:

 

> The USGA messed up plain and simple.

>

 

I'm glad someone gets it! :*

[North Texas]

> @tatertot said:

> > @Philomathesq said:

> > > @golfandfishing said:

> > > Is there a place where we can read an accurate account of what happened? Several different versions are already present in the thread. USGA did this, kid did that, kid was dillywhapping at the scoreboard, USGA regrets their error...... Does anyone know what actually happened without disparaging the USGA or kids these days?

> >

> > I don't know that we'll ever get an accurate account of what happened. But, the article linked in the first post seems to be the best we are going to get. The problem is that the DQ'd player, his dad, and swing coach have a different version of events than the USGA.

>

> Of course they do. Like much of society, it's not their fault and they shouldn't be blamed for going outside the rules.

>

> The only thing we KNOW ... If the player had stopped and turned in his card LIKE EVERY OTHER PLAYER DID he doesn't get DQ'd.

 

Ding, ding, ding. Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner! People need to read this post over and over until it freaking sinks in!

[North Texas]

> @Nessism said:

> > @"North Texas" said:

>

> > The USGA messed up plain and simple.

> >

>

> I'm glad someone gets it! :*

 

Yea, as I said, the USGA never ever gets anything right. Just ask all the experts on golfwrx who are smarter than anyone in a leadership position at the USGA.

[Llortamaisey]

Based on the info we have, I think both parties blew it. The tournament directors blew it in an obvious way but the kid blew it in two ways. He could have easily had his father or swing coach go get the medicine directly after the round and meet him at the scorers table. Someone might have been caddying for him, presumably his father or his swing coach, and could have relayed this info well before the completion of the round so that he had the medicine waiting on him as he putted out on 18. In fact, if his migraine was as bad as he described it, I’m actually surprised he took the course of action that he did.

 

The second way he blew it was by going to the bathroom without telling the scorers table. Takes two seconds to pass by without entering the scorers area to tell them you gotta take a fat dump. Heck, tell your playing partners after you putt out that you gotta take a fat dump and to let the scorers know where you are. That just seems like the logical, considerate thing to do.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Maybe he ran to the bathroom because he had answers to the test hidden in the crapper. :)

[dalehead]

> @caniac6 said:

> This is a real question; How long does it take to turn in a score card? Couldn't he have dropped it off on the way to the bathroom? In qualifiers, do players keep the card of other players? It could have been that they were waiting for him to turn in the score of another player.

 

In competitions where a player keeps the score of another player in the group the cards exchanged at the start of the round and returned back to each player at the end of the round. It is then up to the player to check his score, sign the card, and turn it in.

[JohnnyCashForever]

> @Philomathesq said:

> > @tatertot said:

> > We may not be getting the full story here.

>

> It's hard to imagine what we could be missing when the USGA made a statement that says that kid was DQ'd because he did not promptly turn in his scorecard. There is a dispute as to whether or not he turned his card in 10 or 15 minutes after the round, but that seems to be the only dispute.

>

> Making it worse is that the USGA's "belief" is that the kid took that 15 minutes to get lunch. First, where in the **** did he procure and eat lunch in 15 minutes, and second, three parties (the kid, his dad, and his swing coach) all indicated he had to get medicine and use the head.

 

> @BNGL said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > Article suggests he came back looking at the scoreboard to see where he stacked up. Doesn't sound like the kid gave any thought to his scorecard, and maybe wouldn't have but for relatives engaged in an argument. He messed up, life goes on.

> >

> > "By the time Fox — a junior who has won three Western Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic League championships at Riverside High School — made his way to the scoreboard area to see where he stacked up, he saw an ‘NC’ next to his name, meaning he hadn’t delivered his scorecard. At the scorer’s table, he saw his swing coach, Sean Swidzinski, and father, Joe, arguing with a tournament official."

> >

> >

> There’s always a father...

>

>

>

 

Yes, and he has a swing coach who just happens to be there too.

 

When a 16 year old's entourage is bigger than 0, then something tells me that we're not talking about Pip in Great Expectations. A law suit by the aggrieved party would complete this story magnificently.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @JohnnyCashForever said:

> > @Philomathesq said:

> > > @tatertot said:

> > > We may not be getting the full story here.

> >

> > It's hard to imagine what we could be missing when the USGA made a statement that says that kid was DQ'd because he did not promptly turn in his scorecard. There is a dispute as to whether or not he turned his card in 10 or 15 minutes after the round, but that seems to be the only dispute.

> >

> > Making it worse is that the USGA's "belief" is that the kid took that 15 minutes to get lunch. First, where in the **** did he procure and eat lunch in 15 minutes, and second, three parties (the kid, his dad, and his swing coach) all indicated he had to get medicine and use the head.

>

> > @BNGL said:

> > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > Article suggests he came back looking at the scoreboard to see where he stacked up. Doesn't sound like the kid gave any thought to his scorecard, and maybe wouldn't have but for relatives engaged in an argument. He messed up, life goes on.

> > >

> > > "By the time Fox — a junior who has won three Western Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic League championships at Riverside High School — made his way to the scoreboard area to see where he stacked up, he saw an ‘NC’ next to his name, meaning he hadn’t delivered his scorecard. At the scorer’s table, he saw his swing coach, Sean Swidzinski, and father, Joe, arguing with a tournament official."

> > >

> > >

> > There’s always a father...

> >

> >

> >

>

> Yes, and he has a swing coach who just happens to be there too.

>

> When a 16 year old's entourage is bigger than 0, then something tells me that we're not talking about Pip in Great Expectations. A law suit by the aggrieved party would complete this story magnificently.

 

LOL... Lawsuit is what I was thinking might be next. Some ADA medical issue angle. Sad but that's what I immediately thought of due to this overly litigious society.

 

On the pragmatic side, If he had to go to the bathroom with extreme urgency I could see prioritizing that first. I've had to go so bad I can't even think straight. OK even stopping for medicine should be okay. But stopping to grab food, even a prepared sandwich even if quick, doesn't make for good optics in support of "promptly turn in score card."

 

Anyway in a sport where the rules makers strive for precision I find it odd that "promptly" is not defined. While the kid was not as "prompt" as he could have been, if the guys from his group were still at the scorer's table and the other group hadn't arrived then it can't be that delayed and the committee looks fairly douchey. Perhaps there maybe more of a back story.

[the bishop]

> @Philomathesq said:

> > @golfandfishing said:

> > “why the **** does he get DQ'd? It's not as if he tried to cheat.”

> >

> > You don’t have to try to cheat to get DQ’d, that’s silly. If you show up 6 minutes late for your tee time it’s DQ, obviously no intent to cheat there. Tons of situations lead to DQ that don’t imply or require cheating. Cheating at the level of this event is almost unheard of, but DQ happens frequently. It’s the result of rules actually being enforced by a ruling body, not cheating by the players.

>

> That illustrates my point. Why have a rule, that has never been enforced at this particular sectional before (per the USGA), that results in a DQ for something that happened after the round has ended? DQ'ing someone who doesn't show up to play the game makes sense. DQ'ing someone who had to grab medicine/take a **** before turning in his scorecard is not a reasonable enforcement of the rule. This is especially true when the USGA representative said that had they been aware of the kids headache he likely wouldn't have been DQ'd.

 

A tournament round hasn't officially "ended" till the scorecard is signed and turned in. It's not the end of the world for the kid. He'll learn from it and move on. This type of DQ doesn't typically happen at the pro level bacause at some point in their junior or college careers I'll be a fairly large percentage of these players have been DQ'd for similar infractions. They learned their lessons as well and generally don't repeat them.

[Glaze22]

Way to go USGA!!!!! Growing the game one KID at a time.....

[OldTomMorris]

It's too easy to pile on the USGA (often they deserve it) but the neutral parties here, the two other players in the grouping, had no idea of the player's whereabouts. The article states he was suffering during the round so why not inform his fellow competitors when they finished that he wasn't going to go directly to the scoring area. All seems a little weird to me.

[MtlJeff]

These stories are all just hearsay...but I don't think local USGA folks are the same pompous guys as the top execs, and it seems weird that if there was a medical issue it wouldn't get mentioned when arguing with officials to be reinstated

 

 

[Sixcat]

I blame Joe Willie Namath!