Any new TM drivers in the works?

[PowerCobra98]

Just 1 if you take some pills.

[lakecowboy]

If companies are able to get there w/o factoring in cost, I'd expect the Gen 3 PXG Driver whenever it comes out will be there. Their goal is to be a disruptor. If they could build that driver, I think they would.

[moorebaseball]

It will be interesting to see if anything can beat out my TS3. It has been so money for me this year. Maybe there will be a Taylormade driver in my bag this year, if it looks as good as people are saying. It is Taylormade, so I am sure it will perform. I can't wait to give it a whack!

[Z1ggy16]

Well the Gen 2 XF is the closest driver available right now as far as I can see. Just a matter off finding a way to get the crown even lighter, distributing more mass low and back, without making the driver look or sound weird. Since cost isn't too much of an issue with them, I do agree, if anybody gets there first it would be them. I wonder if PXG will start using uber exotic material like aerogel or specialty graphene.

 

My only issue with clubs like G400MAX and gen2 XF is their size is just not pleasing to look down at. Ideally, OEMs will figure out a way to get 5600+ MOI with a really low CG but in a 440cc head.

[jll62]

This isn't exactly accurate. The CG does move when you change the weight setup; the problem is that it doesn't move all that much. There is only so much mass you can make moveable in a head, and there's only so far that mass can be moved.

Personally, I think the low CG, high MOI area is technically difficult to achieve.

[Valtiel]

I agree, and to address the previous comments about whether or not it has been intentionally avoided, I think it is a combination of a few things that have been mentioned.

First, the traditional driver size and shape that we as golfers tend to demand makes it inherently difficult to achieve. The further you move weight back, the higher it tends to go unless you make changes to your sole design e.g. Cobra Speedback/Speedzone / TM M6 / Cleveland Launcher. Crown shape is also an issue which it looks like Cleveland is trying to address as well in a more subtle way than they did with the HiBore woods.

I do think however that it will take another generation of material tech before we see a truly low CG, high MOI driver. Carbon Fiber was a logical step, but something lighter and stronger will need to be utilized more extensively first because there is just simply too much forward material necessary for structural integrity purposes. I think we will see more and more drivers shaped like the above Cleveland however with less radiused sole shapes and flat portions at the back of the head. Because if we look at all the clubs that have become either legendary or achieved cult followings over the decades, many of them have had both low CG and forgiveness in common.

[Z1ggy16]

But even the F9 and now the new SpeedZone driver is actually less MOI than my current driver, the OG Epic SZ from 2017. I think there has to be a reason to this... are OEMs maybe saying that the ~4-5000 or so MOI in most heads these days is all that is needed? I mean, overall.. MOI is just resistance to twisting. I assume in this sense it means higher MOI helps you keep the ball on line better because the club won't twist open or shut as much... but I'm not sure how that applies to the actual ball speed on those hits. I think off center hit ball speed and MOI are probably only partly related, not mutually exclusive.

[IL2AZ]

If you believe the MOI boost story of the Fujikura Ventus a good way to get into that currently unchartered territory might be to install one in a driver head that is fairly forgiving with a really low CG.

[Valtiel]

Supposedly the SpeedZone Xtreme will be around 5,500 MOI which would put it in the same category as the G400 MAX, which should be interesting, but you are right about the former. With more and more information and testing becoming available, I think manufacturers are now toeing a line more than ever. Players are becoming more educated and specs like MOI and CG location that were previously a mystery are starting to be published. I wouldn't be surprised if companies are "setting the stage" so to speak with new tech and intentionally holding back until the end of the planned line (incoming Taylormade theories tangent). Lets look at the M-series drivers as an example. Neither Twist Face nor Speed Injection are revolutionary ideas. Speed Injection definitely involved some serious tooling, but the idea of more precisely controlling the CT of a driver face is certainly not new, and neither is a modified bulge and roll with a fancy name attached to it. But lets say at the beginning of the M-series that they already had all of these ideas already. They start out with the multi-material tech in both while leaving planned room for MOI increases throughout the range so they can always tout "more forgiveness" with each release followed by the new tech inclusions. They also start seeding tech from the NEXT planned line towards the end of the previous e.g. the evolution of sliding weights from SLDR->R15->M1.

Whether or not they approach it this way I can't say for sure, but I can't imagine they, along with every other company, aren't sitting in a conference room plotting out the next 3-5 driver releases ahead of time with ideas they've come up with upfront. I use Taylormade as an example because their pattern has been super clear from the SLDR until now and we've already seen their next jump with the M6. Everything has been trending towards increasing MOI with a "reset" somewhere along the line where the MOI backs up a bit and CG moves down. This happened between the SLDR 430 and the M1 430 with the introduction of carbon crowns, and now it has happened between the M4 and the M6 with the drastic change in sole shape to lower CG (see image below). Obviously they could have made the M4 like this, but in my opinion this was intentional to setup for the M6 which I think is a setup for the next series of drivers. I could be wrong, but we'll see!

 

[noodle3872]

I think spin is the problem for OEM’s moving into the crazy high MOI territory. Forgiveness is awesome but spin to ensure the ball stays in the air without wild curves matters more I would think.

[Z1ggy16]

Oh, 100%... they are probably not 5 generations ahead (that would be very risky in such a fast moving business environment) but I'd say at least 2, and maybe working on the details for 3. I'm sure they are in a more "agile" environment so they can respond to competitors and alter their designs rapidly without having to totally start over and waste tons of $$. Doing smaller incremental changes also helps save money all around - less NRE because you can use last years design as the base for the next one and you can probably reuse a lot of left over materials and tooling. Most OEMs are releasing a new driver every year so realistically there just isn't enough time to even make huge changes release to release... maybe if they only released once every 3 years then they could.. but then that would likely drive down sales. Yep, also this. The further you move the weight back, the more spin you get. It's a delicate balancing act. That's why I was saying maybe the reason that part of the graph on the very low right isn't filled in is simply because it's just not a good ball flight when you're back there. Something with tons of weight really far back in the head might have super high MOI but produce a really spinny flight... and then if you drop the weight down in the head even more, launch goes up a bunch and you're left with a high launching, high spinning balloon ball. OEMs can probably produce a much more ideal flight - especially for higher speed players - in that 4500-5000 MOI zone. Allows the CG to go low enough but not so far back spin gets out of control, but launch can still be higher.

[taylorx300]

Tested new stuff today and will mention that my M5 9.0 will be replaced with a 10.5 loft in the new head. Get fitted for sure. The size difference in the two versions of 3 fwys is not as noticeable like it was with M5/M6.

[getitdaily]

Why will the m5 get replaced?

[Trav1989]

For you personally is it worth the upgrade because I know it will be person to person basis. But I buy a new driver every year because it’s just fun to have new equipment

[rkelso184]

This guy! So honest haha! A spade is a spade lol FYI I will be doing the same

[taylorx300]

On this small scale testing, if you give a player an extra 5 mph in ball speed, you take it.

[Smitty120]

I just honestly believe that the new TM woods are going to have most wanting to upgrade once they get the chance to test them against current setups. I see some non TM players converting on this new design!

[Valtiel]

Sorry I meant 3-5 models, not generations, hah. You're right in that would be a bit much given how the landscape and the market can change. I just meant that when they released the M1/M2 initially that they likely had the next gen M1/M2, the M3/M5, and the M5/M6 planned in terms of designs and tech. I think they also had this next "SIM" line planned as well given how the M6 looks to have been positioned to transition into a new line.

Regarding spin though, I disagree with some of that. The two mechanisms by which MOI affects spin are dynamic loft influence and vertical gear effects. When we move weight back into "higher" settings in heads, we are theoretically introducing more dynamic loft via head deflecting forward more due to the more rearward CG location's attempt to "catch up" to the shaft line approaching impact. This is the same mechanism that increases launch and spin in "higher launching" shafts and thus can be completely mitigated by lower head loft and/or using a stiffer tipped shaft. There were/are plenty of G400 MAX users on tour and I doubt any of them struggled with ballooning. In terms of the vertical gear effects, we aren't "adding spin" in this case, merely reducing the ability to decrease spin via exploiting the gear effects on higher strikes. This would only negatively impact those that require that spin reduction for their launch conditions and would help on anything below the sweet spot.

Regarding CG location, lowering it can only ever lower spin, all other things being equal. It increases the area that reduces spin and decreases the area that increases it. Take the G400 MAX and bring the CG all the way down to the neutral axis and you have your next big driver.

[getitdaily]

Mind giving m5 ballspeed, launch, and spin numbers andthen the same with SIM? Also, what's your handicap?

[Z1ggy16]

Yes, what you say is true w.r.t. to the low CG placement with your MAX example. I think you're right, that's why we are seeing design changes in shape like M6, F9, etc with that low box-y looking structure. I mean, all it would take is some 50g+ mega dense plug in that little flat rear port area combined with a mega light/strong crown and face and you've got your high MOI, uber low and rear CG driver head. I'm positive it can be done but it just comes down to at what cost... and in what market. If TM is selling these incremental driver upgrades like hot cakes, what motive do they have to release a "game changer" unless they think they could put another OEM out of business (or effectively out of their market) and absorb all those sales? If anybody tries a move like that I would guess it would be Cobra because they need to catch up the most and it would solidly plant them as one of the Big Dawgs. TM and Callaway can probably just keep on doing what they do and still be #1 and #2 in driver sales year after year.

Totally off topic but I also wonder if any of these OEMs will team up with a shaft OEM and start thinking about really different and outside of the box shaft geometries. In the hockey world, you have Bauer and CCM starting to come up with really unique shaft designs. No more are hockey sticks just square boxes along the shaft geometry... you've got multiple different shapes and contours going on which specifically alter the way it bends and releases energy. I know the games are vastly different but at the end of the day it's still a stick being swung at a thing and helping transmit energy to it.

[Valtiel]

I think the technical problem is that crowns really aren't that heavy. We have the M5 and M6 which are almost completely carbon on top and neither is a particularly low CG driver. The weight savings has to come from somewhere else and unfortunately the biggest contributors are the face and associated weld joints, and the hosel area and it's reinforcements. That combined with our need for somewhat "traditional" aesthetics and that is why I think it will take some sort of next gen material advancement.

[Z1ggy16]

Yeah true, they [crowns] can't weigh more than what... 5-10g? Even if you halfed it, that's still peanuts compared to the weight of the whole head. Also, do you know what kind of welding they do? Is it laser welding where they just "melt" the two materials into one another, or are they physically adding weld compound into a joint, then grinding off?

Welp, Im not a mat sci nerd but I do know graphene is basically the strongest material as far as weight to strength ratio goes. I'm sure once that becomes more financially viable, we will see it incorporated in ways such that it also becomes part of the bottom and maybe even a majority of the structure other than the face. Looks like Cobra with that internal T system is kind of trying to figure out how to do this in a different way than simply just gluing a crown on top, which is cool to see. Wonder if we'll ever see more square looking designs come back into style?? Ugly as sin but with modern computer design programs they could maybe get it to look a little better.

Man, thinking about all this stuff is so much more fun than my own job. Would love to go work on solving these issues instead of herding cats all day.

[Gary Gutful]

I tested it and it was no good. I lost 5mph ball speed compared to my M6.

[taylorx300]

As stated in previous posts, fitting is a requirement. I know a shaft that “played well” in the 16 M series did not work so good in M3/4. Was it CG, MOI, twist face? Not sure but with my testing today which was a small sample, using the gamer shaft in my M5 and the new head, I saw a difference. I did try the other stock offering shafts and results were mixed.

further testing is needed for sure.

[Trav1989]

I am excited to hear more after you test more

[TheMoneyShot]

That’s a bold statement!

[USMgolfer1]

Saw all the new products today and honestly was not very impressed with the shape or feel of the new drivers and fairway woods I’ll definitely be keeping my M5 Tour in the bag. Along with that the new putters are pretty horrendous.

[TheMoneyShot]

I heard the new SIM Ti fairway is money. Did you hit that by chance?

[GDTBATH]

I feel like TM has been reeling since they’ve been bought out. Everything they’ve come out with since has been underwhelming. The drivers have been rollovers and the irons, meh. This year feels like an important release cycle. Can they bring something top notch to market? We’ll see.

[TheMoneyShot]

P790s and P7TW irons underwhelming??? Man, this is a tough crowd...