Reed's Caddy in an "altercation"

[bladehunter]

Not really. Not at all in this case. If you use curse words and a loud voice , that’s pretty much the definition of a verbal assault. Name calling is something like a play on words with someone’s name or saying “ fat fat water rat “ . That’s kids stuff. “ you fucking suck “ isn’t name calling.

 

Dor what its worth I also hate the loose use of the word assault. As in I also don’t believe pushing an idiot and slapping his beers down is assault. If he had speared him to the ground , and water boarded him with his own beers , that’s assault.

 

 

This is assault-

https://youtu.be/bNb_ygfmvIUThis is what this incident likely looked like. Not assault. Just two idiots posturing.

 

[Hackattack1]

i'd love to see the level of disrespect from spectators w/ zero alcohol allowed/two drink max per person. i guarantee this person had been drinking. PGA events have become a private and corporate let's get wasted party event so u now see all this debauchery. The caddie was just an idiot for responding physically (no one is surprised that PReed has an idiot for a caddie) to a goating drunk fool.

[Dpavs]

For these things I kind of lean towards the legal definitions as the final word... so for me there is no "assault" unless there is a threat of harm.. everything else is abuse or name calling if you will. When someone slaps beers out of your hands or shoves you that is a physical touching and is a Battery...at that point we have moved beyond assault.

[buckeyevalley]

All this reaction for a shove and spill of a few beers and calling it an assault. You guys must not get out much. Happens every weekend at most drinking establishments. If you were to visit those places and see how you would react if patrons were to constantly shout obscenities at you.

[oikos1]

Yes, but the difference is most of those posting who don't believe a physical assault by Reed's caddie was warranted also do not condone the behavior of the fan. And that is a big difference.

Those of you who think caddies should be able to physically assault patrons at their own whim are calling for chaos. That is a fantastically hilarious position to take for a supposed "gentleman's game".

[dalehead]

Exactly. Both the fan and the caddie were wrong. But the caddie took it to another level by getting physical. If he had just told the fan “Go eff yourself” no one would be posting about it now. But he responded with what in any jurisdiction in the US would be considered battery. And try using the “he made a nasty remark” defense in court.

[dalehead]

You are correct. It is not an assault, it is battery.

 

1. In criminal law, this is a physical act that results in harmful or offensive contact with another person without that person's consent.

[MtlJeff]

I basically agree. Though I'd bet that within a few years we will start seeing speech integrated more into the legal system as prosecutable. It may be now in some places I dont know US law super well.

I dont think violence is justified...basically almost ever outside of true self defense . But I still dont want people going around calling each other names because that isn't healthy

As a society we are somehow getting angrier and more sensitive. So I think within a relatively short time frame calling someone the F word probably will be a crime. Could see it happening

[Sean2]

Hopefully not...that is a very slippery slope as one has to consider the intent of the speaker, and how the "speakee" interprets it. Given how sensitive some folks are today the courts would get jammed and/or jails would get filled right quick, lol. And don't forget "lookism", i.e., someone looks at you in a way you interpret as being offensive.

[bscinstnct]

I think we were at the same game! Carter got serious hell. You must have been sitting in the bleachers, literally anything used to go in the old Stadium $7 bleacher seats.

 

It's nowhere near close to being acceptable to post on the forum but there was also a song that they used to "sing" in the bleachers to Carter or whoever was playing right field. Brutal.

 

As far PR and his caddie. While being drunk and yelling "you suck" at a player should result in being ejected, there is pretty much no justification for a player or caddie to put his hands on a fan unless the fan himself gets physical or is clearly going to get physical. You have to let security try to handle it. That said, it's easy to understand how he felt he was protecting his player and after constant abuse.

 

I

[Mr. Grumpy]

Well, these types of remarks are prohibited by the PGA. While "smashed potatoes" is annoying it's not really unacceptable behavior as defined by the PGA. However, much of the comments hurled at Reed violated PGA's conduct and etiquette policy and should have beed stopped immediately, but it wasn't. The PGA let it brew to a boiling point and are also to blame for this situation.

 

[MtlJeff]

In sensitivity training in most offices they teach that you have offended someone if that person feels offended. It's kind of ridiculous of course because someone can choose to he offended by almost anything if it's entirely up to them. Most companies dont actually enforce their rules the way they teach them however

I imagine the same would be true of any laws on hate or hurtful speech. I'm just saying it wouldn't shock me if we had them at some point.

 

[dalehead]

It’s already happening. Colleges and universities routinely discipline students for speech the school considers offensive to other students. Those young people are going to be making our laws in a few years.

[Sean2]

Maybe that is what the pro golfer needs to do...when someone shouts out something, the player can say he is offended. :-)

[Hawkeye77]

The guy had a beer in each hand, he wasn’t a threat, just an idiot.

 

It’s always situational no doubt, and he probably did snap - but I chuckle that he went after a guy who wasn’t looking likely to shove back.

[lefty1978]

I was in main level down the right field line. I spent many days in the bleachers though, stuff that was said probably wouldn't fly in 2019.

[Irishman1979]

The caddy should be banned for life.

To shove a fan for heckling your player is not acceptable.

Reed is lucky I am not in charge because guilty by association would grant a suspension on him as well. I would have called Tiger and told him Reed can't play the final day, send a message to the rest of them.

[MtlJeff]

I think most people are lucky that someone who believes in guilty by association isn't in charge!

[Irishman1979]

He's not good for the game anyway and definitely not a role model for the children that watch Golf. No one would miss the guy if they banned his ass.

[BIG STU]

Depends on what state you are in. South Carolina has what is called provocation laws and it is just not limited to racial slurs either.

[bscinstnct]

Smart.... and TW be like,

 

Ok, then I don't play.

 

Then....

 

"You'll have the shortest executive career since that pope that got poisoned."

-Wall Street

 

; )

 

 

 

 

[BIG STU]

Honestly I think the PGA Tour let it go on to create controversy to boost TV viewing and ratings. Sorta like "professional" wrestling used to be and even back in the day NASCAR stooped to the same tactics. Actually NASCAR has done it in recent years I suspect to boost sagging ticket sales and sagging TV viewing. The thing that irks me and I know I am old school and an old coot but golf used to be a gentleman's game both players and fans. People used to also control their behavior when consuming alcohol but no more like other WRXers have pointed out at hockey games etc.

[BIG STU]

I know for a fact it is PGA Tour policy that the player is responsible for the conduct of their caddie. And on every Mini Tour I played on it was the same policy

[oikos1]

CADDIE REGULATIONSPlayers shall be responsible for the conduct and behavior of their caddies at tournaments.14. Caddies shall not engage in conduct unbecoming a professional caddie, as determined in the sole discretion of the PGA TOUR.

2017-2018 Player Handbook and Tournament Regulations

Looks like Reed is on the hook for his Caddies behavior. Have to wait and see what the Tour decides. I wonder if those who support the caddie's actions realize he violated the rules of the PGA Tour?

[caniac6]

I think we are all lucky you are not in charge.

[Johnny Longball]

If the Tour was going to punish Reed, it would have happened at the same time they suspended Karain. They aren't going to sit on it for a few days and then take him out too.

[koleschofield34]

Pretty embarrassing for the Reed camp.

[Hawkeye77]

A guy yelling "you f_____g suck" holding a couple of beers, no matter how loud he is, at a golf cart moving past him, or even stopped in front of his nose, is never going to be held to have incited violence and risen to the level of an "assault" - it just isn't going to happen and isn't the state of the law in this country. Just not the kind of stuff and not directed at the kind of person that any of that would ever justify the caddy jumping off the cart and attacking the guy (here).

 

The suggestion that otherwise protected speech can be expected to become criminalized any time soon (and withstand constitutional challenge in the courts) is unlikely given the long history with which the "fighting words" doctrine has been around and how little at its core it has really changed. The U.S. Supreme Court isn't moving in a direction to limit the First Amendment and it is pretty well guarded historically.

 

There are hate crimes, but so-called "hate speech" still has First Amendment implications. Lots of confusion about that.

 

I don't know why this keeps spiraling into how folks would react to certain words at certain times - not saying right or wrong, just saying if you react like this guy did you are assuming the risks and possible consequences. But nothing in this I've seen so far gets the caddy anywhere at all and won't get any of us anywhere if we react in that way to someone - we run the risk of being charged. Now, would an officer charge it and under what circumstances, would a prosecutor do anything with it and under what circumstances, would a judge or jury excuse it and under what circumstances, no way to rationally predict.

 

It's not some societal big picture thing from a criminal standpoint that really has a lot to do with what happened at the golf tournament.

 

As far as a golf tournament - I will keep repeating - control the booze, be proactive and reactive with the losers on consistently aggressive basis - going to be hard to get this horse back in the barn.

 

 

[Ghost of Snead]

Reed is reaping what he has sown and his entourage is feeling the heat. No one confronted Webb when he was 0-3. Reed's track record & past history will haunt him the rest of his career and you can bet Stricker was taking mental notes in case Reed does not make the top 8 for Whistling Straits and is up for a captain's pick. Personally, I respect his golf but that's where it ends.

[Bushwood Country Club]

And that changes what, exactly? I am glad he stood up for Patrick....