2020 Phoenix Area Course Conditions

[Argonne69]

SD is a bit of a hike for regular play, although it would probably be worth the drive given the value.

[Argonne69]

Meh. Dobson is playable, but I wouldn't put it in the Goldilocks category.

[az2au]

From where you’re staying I think Verde River or Legend Trail may be better fits. They’re not the courses that SD is but the commute to SD would grind on you.

[OrangeGravy]

Gonna be in town next weekend, starting the 6th. Staying on W Portland st in Phoenix. Looks like GCU is a couple NW and Aguila is south not too far away. I'll likely target those 2 as it sounds like they're both good value for the course. What is the best approach for getting tee time deals for an out of towner? One of the online golf sites, directly with the course?

[cbbaron]

You can always get decent deals at legend Trail

[Shushwap]

I am in town next week as well and I used Tee off to book most of my times... I did book them well in advance...

They had a 25% off deal for new sign ups... Not sure if its still available

[OspreyCI]

Haha. That’s my other spot. I live exactly in the middle between Kokopelli and Western Skies. Those are my go too’s. Golf is golf. Most ppl on here would laugh, but I play golf all year long instead of ppl that get to play 4 months out of the year. Haha.

[avguy]

I work over near Kokopelli and somewhat near Western Skies - do not like either course at all but would prefer WS of them. I call them bland and affordable - both values in golf that work for me but these two rub me wrong in the look/feel flavor out on them - and they suck for walking with streets and sprawl thru housing layouts.

On the other hand, the two city courses with mirror images that are also of same values work great for me over many years now - Dobson & Ken McDonald. I guess the walking factor is large with me as my rounds feel more at ease not on carts.

I can identify with playing courses often that some on here are way above for taste or player level - but golf is just part of an outdoor mix for me that beats the hell out of a great day inside!

[Argonne69]

I walked both Kokopelli and Western Skies, and didn't find either a difficult walk. WS only has a few streets to cross, and it's not a long walk between holes. Also, most of the holes are laid out side by side, so you don't feel quite as pinched by the housing. I sprayed a couple of drive wide into the adjacent fairway.

Have you played Apache Creek? It's only 15 miles from WS, and there are no homes on the property.

[avguy]

Yah - Apache is a way nicer feel than those other two, agreed. Any walk on pavement with my golf shoes is bad for me....wont walk Koko ever again, maybe WS.....but if one was going to entertain out -of-towners - Apache is a decent desert area course easy on the $ and no weird vibes for me with the surroundings.

The walk ez/hard is all subjective I guess as I get alot of miles on old legs via running (20mi/week) or mtn biking - It is just something in look/layouts I can't get into for those two as much.

I'd probably pick Aguila as my fit for $ and the fun plus look I like in golf - at over 30 miles and many stop lights - it's on my extreme reach tolerance so I only play it 1-2x/year.

[Argonne69]

Anybody attending the WMO today? I'm currently at the range, and I'll be here most of the day.

[fore_life]

Take the new freeway loop to Aguila and you don’t hit any stoplights

[capking]

I found Aguila to be really good especially for the price compared to Papago.

[fore_life]

Papago has priced itself out of consideration for me now, for the asking price now, I’d rather play southern dunes.

playing Aguila again on Thursday if anyone wants to play/get served

[Bonneville85308]

Cave Creek early this morning. The greens were probably in the best shape I've seen them so far this winter, really impressive for a course in this price range. During the past week, the staff has also been cutting out and sodding some areas in the fairway and approaches that were hardpan or usually collected water. The usual goose excrement was absent from #13 and #14 fairways. Course played quite firm with great rollout on drives.

They sent some traveling league of slow old men off the back nine which screwed everything up, we played the front as a foursome in 1:40 and the back in 2:25, waiting on every shot on the back. Starter said the tee sheet was absolutely full until like 3pm. By the time I was headed back to my car, there had to be 12 carts lined up by the first tee waiting to go off. Cars were parked on the rocks, I've never seen that many people there before.

[Argonne69]

Trail Ridge today. Another ho hum Sun City West course. The course describes itself as target golf, but I don't recall hitting less than driver or laying up on any hole. Yes, there's more water than most of the local courses, but it's certainly not target golf. Decent mix of holes. Greens were fairly benign. Conditions were very good. Greens were rolling at a decent 9 to 10. The bunkers could use a little more sand, but were very playable. I'd rate it a 4.

[Argonne69]

A very enjoyable day at the Victory Course at Verrado GC. There was a two hour frost delay this morning, but enough groups canceled that I teed off only 30 minutes late. I played the Founders Course many years ago when it was The Raven, and if I recall correctly the newer Victory course doesn't quite stack up. The front nine is an out and back design with no homes on it. There are nice views of the White Tank Mountains. I can't really complain about the holes, but none really stood out. On the other hand, the back nine has some excellent holes, but the tradeoff is that you get to look at the surrounding homes on the looping nine (except for the wonderful 18th with its 240 yd carry over water from the silver tees). Overall there is a great mix of par 4s from the driveable 14th to the beast 9th. Par 3s were snoozers.

Conditions were top notch. Greens had some fun undulations, and were rolling at ~10. I'd rate it a solid 5.

The par 5 18th (Silver).

[AzSuperHack76]

@Argonne69 I really enjoy your reviews. It's nice to see someone stack up the courses like you are doing in terms of value courses. I do have a question though. How exactly are you rating these courses? You have Verrado Victory rated as a 5 but the post above you have a mundane Trail Ridge rated as a 4, along with other SCW courses. You even Moon Valley as a 4 or Kokopeli as a 3.5. To me the courses aren't even on the same level as Victory in terms of layout, conditioning etc. etc. You don't think there is a wider separation between these courses? Not meant to offend, just curious what goes into your ratings. Thanks!

[Argonne69]

Good point. Victory is probably more of a 5.5. For me a 6 is a course I'd play a 2nd time, not that I play many courses twice. Victory has a handful of really fun holes, but the remainder are fairly blah. Not bad, but little "wow". I'd certainly recommend it to someone who hasn't played it, but I wouldn't make the trip to play it a 2nd time. Therefore, the courses in the 4 to 5.5 range are ones that I'd recommend, especially if someone is looking for value. Anything less than 4 can be skipped unless one is looking for a 2nd round of the day near a better course. The 6 and above courses are getting into the must play category.

Of course a few good beers could convince me to nudge a course up or down.

As someone who plays a lot of courses only once, I realize that I'm grading the courses based on initial impressions. Courses that offer a lot of eye candy usually don't stack up well for repeated play. I think Quintero is a classic example in this area. First timers love it for the eye candy, but locals generally avoid it as a meh design.

[puttnforthe8]

Same thought - he previously said a 1-10 scale. There is no way on earth Trail Ridge could be a 4 and Victory a 5!!!

[ferrispgm]

I have been enjoying the reviews as well. Though I have to disagree on Victory. The first time I played it I felt very similar to you and I didn't care for some of the blindish tee shots that the course presented. Granted nothing there is truly blind but there are several holes where the fairway looks tiny and it opens up massively once you drive up. I decided to play it a second time a few months later because I had time to kill and I like their driving range....Liked the course a lot more. It's one that I think needs to be played at least two or three times to be appreciated.

[az2au]

I've never minded blind tee shots and thought Victory was a lot of fun. I agree that if you play it a second time it is much easier to appreciate though. I actually think it is a better overall design than Founders.

[teejaywhy]

They are not very good at all if it takes them 5 hours to play.

 

[teejaywhy]

 

I like a course that doesn't reveal itself on the first play. The better courses get better with each play. A little mystery and the joy of discovery makes a course interesting for repeat visits.

Some courses are like pop songs. The catchy hook wears off quickly and pretty soon you are sick of hearing it. (Quintero)

 

[Argonne69]

I think there's something everyone can agree on. When one thinks about the term "Golf Resort", Arizona Golf Resort doesn't quite fit the bill. Oy. The place borders on depressing. Ho hum design. Mediocre conditions. Fairways were mostly playable, but had plenty of thin patches. Greens were thin in spots, but were playable, and rolling at ~9. Off the fairway was the popular combination of dead grass, hard pan, and weeds. At least the bunkers had some sand in them. I'd rate it a generous 2.5.

[Argonne69]

Again, good points. It's tough to rate a course. Is your target audience the traveling golfer who's looking for a one time only experience, or a local looking for regular play? Do you cater to the player who appreciates course management, or someone who favors eye candy?

The 18th at Victory is a good case study. From a design standpoint, it's a lousy hole. It's all risk, and no reward. You either clear the penalty area, or you're reteeing. Unless you can drive it 300+, there's no reaching it in two. In fact, three of the par 5s are not reachable by a player averaging 250 yds.

[OrangeGravy]

My only caveat to this for me is price. If the round is really spendy and the course is full of blind tee shots where you find yourself in the $hit often after a well struck drive, it can be frustrating. I do however like a bit of mystery in a golf course that's affordable enough for me to visit it multiple times and discover new stuff each time. That destination course that you'll only play once due to either price or location has to deliver the first time, for me anyway.

[teejaywhy]

Don't misunderstand. NO ONE likes to hit a good shot and end up in the $hit. A purely blind hazard is not welcome. But a bit of uncertainty that creates discomfort can be a key element of interest. Sometimes the best shot placement is not obvious. A lot different from an unknown do or die. "Make an easy shot look hard and make a hard shot look easy," that sort of thing. The old "Line of Instinct: vs. "Line of Charm" discussion.

True that most tourists and one time players don't want surprises and prefer the "all there in front of you" look and that is why Phoenix is fulled with crappy tourist golf courses with great views, plush conditions and upscale amenities.

 

[az2au]

One thing I always hate is when price is used as a primary factor to rate golf courses (cheap or expensive). I'm certainly good with a value ranking as that makes complete sense but I'd rather see the course rated first, everything covered and then value become a secondary factor. My rationale is that I've already paid what I've paid so now the course is all that I have to deal with and I never want to be thinking about what it cost when I step on the first tee or when reviewing the merits of the actual course. After the round, when I look at the overall merits, I can then use cost as a factor in breaking ties or sorting where it belongs. Same as location in a lot of ways.

Probably makes me weird. I'm OK with that.

[Argonne69]

I don't think price should ever be a primary factor in rating a course, but it's certainly a factor. One's expectations generally go up with price, so two courses that are otherwise the same will be differentiated by value.

We regularly see value used to judge courses in this area due to seasonal pricing. How many courses are basically on the do not play list during the winter due to the jacked prices?