Disappointing releases from Titleist

[jc88]

Thread slowly becoming a discussion about snowflakes...

[lordemsworth]

But I think that is only true from the supporting launches. The driver / fairway / hybrid release was centred around TS2 and TS3. The supplementary drivers were outliers.

The irons were released when they normally are with the AP1/2/3 CB and MB replacements. To be honest, I’m not sure they needed to move from their numbering scheme, but to each his own. Now the new iron releases - I kind of agree with the T100s criticism. To me - really doesn’t make any sense. And the T400 - they should have been ready with the irons in September.

they have more product out now than they ever did - not really sure it is helping growth of revenue.

[golfguru80]

I think the releases have been ok

[lordemsworth]

Quick question for you - why do you think they are just sitting there? What would make them more appealing?

The pricing on the old stuff isn’t that deeply discounted. They are still over $1200 CAD for a set of AP2. You can get a new set of Srixon or almost cover the cost of a new set of Mizuno. They need to more deeply discounted to move - not sure if that is possible.

But I am curious about why the T series is sitting there.

[GoGoErky]

So the ta1 and ts4 are not mainstream type products. They are for a very small market as are the t400 irons. Titleist still has their main release with ts2/3 and their eventual replacements. The release of ts1/4 is similar to the d4 head that came out. These products are for the 1% of golfers in each demographic they are designed for although t400 may be a bit wider as the golfing population ages.

The t100-s is fit the golfer that wants the t100 but doesn’t have the swing speed to hit them the distance the golfer wants from the their irons or they need a better launch window so they fittings titleist saw the need for a product to fit the gap between t100 and t200. They are still going to be for a smaller section of the golfers out there.

 

[GoGoErky]

Imo anything sitting on the shelves is an inventory control issue by the shop. In today’s world everyone does some sort of custom order whether it’s a different stock shaft or some sort of change to the set. Having product on the shelf that no one buys isn’t necessarily the brands fault.

I was in my local shop the other day and their driver/wood display for all brands was pretty empty.

[rgk5]

You hinted at the problem with the pricing on the previous models. The new ones do not offer significant performance improvements, if any in some cases, over the less expensive sets from Srixon, Mizuno and Wilson Staff. Titleist dug themselves a hole years ago by branding their irons as "serious player" offerings, whatever that was supposed to mean. They virtually ignored the middle to high handicap players who make up over 80% of the market. Their products are good solid perfromers but are matched or surpassed by others. Price still is the main criterion.

[Carolina Golfer 2]

I am one that bought the T300's in December. I had heard rumblings of a T400 coming down the pike and that they would be SGI. In my mind I was thinking they would look something like the TM MCGB from a couple years ago. So I decided to go with the T300. I gotta say when I saw the T400 I was shocked at how nice they looked....to me. I realize some don't like the look, but they are much better looking than I imagined.

But I haven't once flamed on Titleist for my T300 being out of date. They aren't. I'm sure they will be fine, haven't played yet due to weather. And you know what, if I decide I have to have the T400, well I'll gladly put an order in.

I don't find golf clubs any different than automobiles, I bought a 2018 model in September, and when the 2019 models were announced two months later, they had a few new features my 2018 didn't have. But it still get's me where I need to go, and still had my essential features, life goes on.

All this is to say, no matter what or when you buy, you should do so knowing that in most cases, something newer and different is likely to come along soon after. That does't make your's any less effective and still has the features and performance you bought it for.

[Socrates]

I guess Titleist could have held on to the T100s and T400's for another 12 months and then released them in the next product cycle. But by then the critics would have been mad that there were these irons out there in the world that a few special people had and they hadn't been released to the public.

Titleist and other companies know that it is impossible to keep anything secret for very long and there is nothing to be gained from delaying new product by months and not bringing them to market as soon as they can to take advantage of the hype.

Just to quell the disgruntled few, we haven't even reached the PGA Merchandise Show yet. So in every OEM's mind, everything mentioned since late Sept. up until the 1st day of the Show, is still part of the current cycle. Just because someone couldn't stop themselves from selling their soul to have the latest and greatest before the Show has even happened, knowing full well (or at least should know) that more stuff could be coming, shouldn't be blaming anyone but themselves.

[GoGoErky]

well technically the t400 were announced on the first day of the the show that started yesterday with seminars and today is demo day.

[forrester_fire]

is there really a gap that needs filled between GI and player's iron and, if so, what the heck is the point in the T300? And, really, doesn't the 100s sit between the 100 and 400? Really...a GI iron that sits between another GI and an SGI?

[GoGoErky]

the t300 is the gi offering that somewhat took the place of the ap1. The t200 somewhat took the place of the ap3 in that players distance category ala p790, i500. The t400 per the stiff I’ve read are designed for the golfers who have slow ss especially those whose driver ss is 84 and underdog definitely a market for that. There is a gap between the t100 and t200. The t100 kinda being the ap2 replacement (I use kinda and somewhat because people titleist there is no direct replacement for the ap line in the t series.

just like there was a group of players who wanted to play the ap2 but their ss and/or skill to play them but didn’t want to play the ap1 there’s a group that prefers the players iron in t100 but for the same reasons as ap2/ap1 they don’t want to play t200 and fitters have been bending t100 strong for this segment. With that bending there’s a change in bounce. So titleist takes the feedback uses it to tweak the t100 design by building them 2* and to offset the bounce issue redesign the sole and also move the cg. Now the customer who wants players irons but doesn’t want to go to t200 now have an option and don’t have to worry about bounce/turn interaction

[forrester_fire]

Thanks for the clarification. I was under the (mistaken) impression that the T100 replaced the AP1, the T200 replaced the AP2, and the T300 the AP3. It seems like the T100s fits a similar profile to the Hot Metal Pro/919 Forged/P790/Apex; a players distance iron.

[GoGoErky]

the change in numbering helps make it flow better from players to sgi where with ap it was a little confusing going from ap2 being players and ap1 gi then ap3 in between but numbering didn’t fit in between

[Valtiel]

I agree it was confusing before, but now IMO they made it confusing on the other side. With the 1/2/3/4 numbering scheme, I think they should have lined it up with the woods. But instead it is kinda flipped.

[Stanks]

I'm not mad about what I see. Some of the nicest blades released this year. The number 1 ball in golf. Vokey Wedges are nice. The drivers aren't the top of the chart but, they're very nice. Scotty cameron bringing up the rear with the roller.

I seriously don't know what you want, OP. I think you just need to visit another brand or try your best to understand that it'll all about the marketing and art of pleasing the vast demographic that is golf. THat magical grey area between the 1 - 2x a year duffer and shanker and Justin Thomas. Just relax man. Titleist is doing great.

[mootrail]

Welcome to 2020, where things are not like the good ol' days; millennials are paying $20 for Avocado toast and the Koreans own your favorite brand.

 

[Mahamilto]

Their drivers are absolutely chart toppers. With the right fit, they are easily as good as anything anyone else has to offer, at least in the 2018-2019 cycle (I haven't hit Mavrik/Sim/Speedzone, but I hit EVERY driver from '18 and '19 and nothing could beat the TS3 for overall performance)

The AP to T iron lines renumbering is because the AP3 messed up the system. It was AP1 = GI, AP2 = Player. The AP3 came and was between the two, but would be ridiculous to be called the AP1.5. I think the reason they went 300 as the GI/SGI was to make it easier for everyone to make sense of it... the bigger the number, the bigger the forgiveness/stronger lofts/more distance. Similar to PING, with the G710/G410 and i500/i210.

The T100s is a fantastic idea to be honest. I blend my T-MBs with AP2s, and loft for loft the T-MBs fly about 3 yards further. If you look at my lofts, the T-MBs are also 1* stronger across the board. This means I had to choose to bend the AP2s 2* strong, weaken the T-MBs 2*, or change each set by 1* to meet in the middle. No matter which way you cut it, that leaves me messing with bounce and turf interaction. Will some just go T100s thru the bag? Sure, but I feel the biggest benefit is for someone like me who wanted T-MB/U500/T200 in the 3-6ish spots, with a forged players iron in the 7-PW etc.

If I were building a 2020 set similar to my current, I could just go U500 20* and 23*, T100s 6-PW, and even could have a T200 6 bent 1* weak and it be no different.

Basically the T100s just offers flexibility for making blended sets.

[mosesgolf]

These new and regular equipment releases are great imo. You have state of the art latest and greatest. The release of a TS4 doesn't diminish you're other Titleist driver which is probably only 2 yards shorter but has better dispersion. :)

The more oems release these high end clubs the more and more they will eventually flood the used club market on Ebay. Buying new clubs is the worst way to spend money on equipment. Just get last years model for less than half. F9's with premium shafts are going for less than $200, M5 M6 TS2 TS3 are less than half of new all day long. Rick Shiels recently tested all SIM drivers and he got better numbers with the M5 & M6.

My AP3's with Tour Modus 120s 4-GW cost $400 with new grips on. NEVER would've paid the ridiculous new price. I got the AP3's with premium shafts for less than 1/3rd of new. Guess what. Pay $500 for a new driver go play a round and it's USED.

You probably could've bought a used TS driver a ts fwy wood and ts hybrid used for the price of a new TS driver at Globalgolf.

$1200 for a new set of T100s no way.

Get a set of 716 AP2s, hybrids, full set of SM7 wedges for less than half. Guarantee the 716's play just like the T100s.

 

[ssfranny]

T100 S will be a huge seller

[SugarPenguin]

Hey I am all for Titleist and I think all the equipment they have brought out is fantastic. I think they are being more innovative than Titleist has ever been from a product perspective.

The release cycle is what I am against. As other have eluded to - it isnt just Titleist, they are just a company that I thought wouldn't repeatedly bring additional products out mid-line. I am confident that if the T100s were brought out at the same time as the rest of the T-series, there would be a 50/50 split in sales. The T100s would fit slower SS golfers who require more distance, players who generate too much launch and spin (granted a small number) and it would also bring in some T200 players. I guarantee there will be some disgruntled golfers that have already been custom fit for the original T100 and T200....

The entire industry needs to get back to helping golfers instead of profiting off them (which I know will never happen).

[WristySwing]

 

Back in my day, milkshakes cost a nickel, schools and water fountains were segregated, and you trusted everything because, by God, it was American. Your first sentence shouldn't be surprising. Why wouldn't the drivers be as good as anything else out there? It would be pretty lame for them to create a driver that was worse than everyone else, for what purpose? To not sell any and tick off the people who did buy one?

T100S is more of a P760/Apex Pro/785/MMC position. The Hot Metal Pro, 919 Forged, P790, and standard Apex would still fall in line more with the T200 with the unsupported face, ball speed tech with the MIT badging, and slightly larger overall profile.

[dupaloop3611]

my question for these T400 irons is

 

how do they expect us to gap from a 38 PW to a 60 lob wedge?

 

 

[GoGoErky]

If someone was properly fit into T100 or 200 then another club coming out isn’t going to make their clubs wrong fit or guarantee the t100-s would be a good fit. The whole purpose of a proper fit is to optimize the setup. If someone bought something not optimized with or without a fitting that’s their fault.

with the number of offerings in irons from every company aren’t they brands helping the golfer while making money? In the case of titleist they have an offering for every category of golfer with their irons.

[GoGoErky]

The same way you would gap from a 38* club to a 60* wedge. One could order the set wedges in t400 or buy non set wedges. The only things different is the number on the bottom of the club. They are designed for the golfer with 84 mph driver swing and that golfer is going to benefit more from hitting wedges than woods/hybrids

[Ram6]

I agree with the first post. I almost ordered a new set of T100 irons bent 1-2 degrees strong to suit my gapping. However I was concerned how bending the irons would affect bounce. Luckily I waited as the T100s will likely be a perfect fit for me. I would not have been happy if I had ordered the T100 irons.

[ChipNRun]

The TaylorMade/Callaway arms race slowed somewhat in 2014.

As a 2013 Christmas present, TM had flooded the market with four new driver releases on the heels of a hot spring the year before. But... TM's top customer Dick's took a bath when TM supply chain glitches delayed most shipments until early spring. To clear out the TM bounty, Dick's was selling some drivers well below MSRP. In July 2014, Dick's held Termination Tuesday when it fired some 560 in-store PGA golf pros to help stem Dick's-specific golf losses.

Fortunately, Gold Galaxy (owned by Dick's) survived largely intact.

About that time, a veteran Callaway rep told me that Callaway was taking a conservative path for future releases. Marketing and production would coordinate to create a pull vs. a push merchandising scheme. New products would be in development, but would not be released until supplies of the prior model were starting to fall into back-order. Thus, MD5 Jaws wedges were not released until the last MD4 run started to dwindle. At the PGA Sectional fall merchandise sale, MD4 58*/10 lob wedges were plentiful, but other lofts and lies were scarce. I'll give a better MD4 update after the Feb. 7 weekend St. Louis Golf Expo.

But, it seems like Callaway went quick-time on the Rogue irons family. I hit Rogue Pros at the 2018 Expo, but by summer 2019 they were in "sell-out," an 18-month cycle. The Rogue and Rogue X irons held out until New Year's on the main Callaway site, for an actual 2-year cycle.

Now, we have the Mavriks. I need to hit some at Expo, I'm falling behind on my Callaway experience. (I have hit Rogue family irons and the FWs, but I have never hit a Rogue driver!!!)

[WristySwing]

As much as Callaway says they follow this model, they don't. I remember in the spring of 2017 I was invited to go down to Carlsbad and be one of the first 200 selected Callaway "Master Fitters" and do a 3-day, learning intensive crash course run by their Carlsbad fitters and their tour van staff. It was a lot of fun, but I suspect now it was more likely just a hype program for the Epic line of irons, than anything. At any rate, they boasted about this sell out vs. sell off model they had introduced a year or so prior with the Great Big Bertha. Well, since then, they've replaced Epic with Rogue, Rogue with Epic Flash, and Epic Flash with Mavrik almost like clockwork every 12 months. Or sorry, COMPLIMENTED is a better term with the odd-year track/no track releases. Not to mention the quick to die Fusion that was all but forgotten once the Epic was released, despite the confusing release cycle of the Fusion in August or September of 2016. They have a dizzying array of hybrid models that I can't even keep straight anymore all released within the past 12-13 months with Big Bertha, Apex, Epic Flash, Super Hybrid, Mavrik, Mavrik Max, and Mavrik Pro, along with the X-Forged UT that is still kind of current but less thought about. You also still have Rogue and Rogue X on Callaway's website to further confuse things with Price Drop in bolded red under their name. Suspicious considering the mantra and model they have aimed to follow I highlighted above. What makes it very confusing is the Big Bertha and Epic Flash seem to be one and the same, with Flash having the new Flash face and the BB not, while the Super Hybrid appears to be the same as the Flash but they are using crazy expensive materials instead (titanium vs. steel) to boost the price point.

Don't get me started on their irons. Literally the only product seems to follow with this policy is the Apex line of product, because as you said, the Rogue irons disappeared in early/mid summer and nothing. I used to be a big proponent of Callaway, and still will be in the fairway wood department as they just flat out go, but it makes it real hard to support them when even they don't really seem to know what they are doing and seem to be just throwing random releases out to see what sticks and whenever they please.

[MMB1500]

Best comment I've read on here for some time.

[BlkNGld]

Not quite 'unethical'.

They're trying to optimize their development resources and at the same time, keep money coming in at a steady rate rather than having peaks and valleys that one big release can bring.

If I get upset about an OEM bringing out a new club a few months after I buy, it probably means that I chose to buy something that was ill fit to begin with.