Forged wedges

[Howard_Jones]

11 minutes ago, RogerinNewZealand said:

Howard,thanks for your insight.I love forged but are happy with sm5/6/7 i have bought,this week i dont own a forged wedge,my mp100
Mizuno are the softest set of Mizzys by far.My set of mp63 are great but not as soft.Maxfli were famously soft and Cast! 8620 can be just fine if its a Vokey,we each hear/feel different things at Impact,thats what WRX has taught me.
best regards,Roger

Vokeys is actually "half forged", its not a casting only, and most 8620 is heat treated after casting to make them softer than the metal is if it only cooled down. They are "baked" for some time, (cant recall how long), so Vokey is of the "better" cast wedges out there, but they dont feel like a 5 step forging does.

[Tampajoe3]

1 hour ago, Howard_Jones said:

Who told you that fairytale?, thats what it is, i cant think of any reasons for why grinding should be "better" on cast steel,  can you explain that? PS! im a former Gun smith and have been working with metal my whole life, and grinding of wedges....thats what im doing on my profile photo as a Authorized Scratch grinder and dealer

Its when the wedge is chromed.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Tampajoe3
finished chrome wedge

[jjfcpa]

1 hour ago, RedWings1 said:

My Honma Tw-W4 wedges are forged, feel awesome just like all the Mizuno T series wedges I've gamed.

Where did you buy your Honma wedges?  I'm kind of interested in those.

[Howard_Jones]

35 minutes ago, Tampajoe3 said:

Its when the wedge is chromed.

i still dont get it, it was about grinding of the sole, now you say "its when the wedge is chromed"...it makes no difference for grinding either, both cast and forged steel will be rusting where the chrome plating is grinded off...unless its made of 303 Stainless steel, but thats got nothing to do with cast or forged. The only wedge i recall made from 303 Stainless steel is Bettinardi and those are forged, most others is mild carbon steel, either 1020, 1025 or 8620 as the most common. (the last 2 digits is the amount of carbon) 8620 is a alloy steel, its not really carbon steel like the others.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Howard_Jones

[Tampajoe3]

I may have oversimplified my remark. All it does is mess up the chrome finish.  So in that sense it’s better.  

[Pepperturbo]

I agree with Howard_Jones regarding Forged vs. Cast feel.  From the time I took up the game to 2016, I played forged 1018/1020 forged wedges.  Since 2016 been playing 8620 Vokey wedges and seldom a day passes that I don't feel that difference in my hands.  When I hit the ball, it feels as though the ball comes off the face a tad faster than with forged 620MBs or 620CBs.

 

Lots of people reject their reality, but whether someone can tell the difference between forged vs. cast at impact depends on that persons touch receptors in their hands.  It's comparable to people that can't taste, smell, see or hear very well.  Senses vary per person.  They may even lack attention to details. 

 

As I recall, Mizuno, Miura, Cobra, TM,  Callaway market forged wedges.  Plus online there are 2-4 custom forged Wedge and iron makers too.

[gambit]

Ping Glide Forged

[seth514]

New Level Golf has forged wedges as well. Really starting to enjoy the one I have, although it needs a lighter shaft. It certainly feels better than the current Cally MD4's I also use. There is a noticeable softer feel to the wedge, and this is certainly not just from the sound (I practice with loud music/headphones in). 

[MattM97]

Forged doesn't always mean better especially on wedges. Look at Ping, they have the Glide and the Forged line. If you look at their site it's pretty split between Glide and Forged on what the pros use, if Forged is that much better then they'd all be using them right? 

 

Also the cost, the Forged depending where you live is anywhere from $50-90 more than the Glide depending on the model. That's a lot, that a lesson or two to learn how to play your wedges better. 

[PowderedToastMan]

This Forged vs cast debate just isn’t relevant anymore. PING is exceptional at casting and also used dampening materials to engineer the exact sounds and feels they want. Their entire business has been built on the success of massive investments into casting technology. 
 

It’s not about Forged vs cast anymore. It’s about process. You can’t just lump sum all casts together and all forges together. Lots of forges are better than casts, and lots of casts are better than some forgings. There’s also many more materials now that influence feel in a club besides the type of metal and how it’s mushed together. 

[Pepperturbo]

57 minutes ago, PowderedToastMan said:

This Forged vs cast debate just isn’t relevant anymore. PING is exceptional at casting and also used dampening materials to engineer the exact sounds and feels they want. Their entire business has been built on the success of massive investments into casting technology. 
 

It’s not about Forged vs cast anymore. It’s about process. You can’t just lump sum all casts together and all forges together. Lots of forges are better than casts, and lots of casts are better than some forgings. There’s also many more materials now that influence feel in a club besides the type of metal and how it’s mushed together. 

 

May be the case for you, but I beg to differ with your conclusion.  I played 1018 forged wedges for many years before switching to Miura then Vokey SM6 since 2016.  Pings Stealth and Glide versions are more like Vokey with 8620.  However, Ping's Glide product line is designed to emulate Forged via cast, stamp forged using 8620 material, a harder material than 1018 or 1020. 

 

Ping has always been known for making durable golf clubs.  Forged isn't nearly as durable as say, Vokey's.  Here's a fact, over 90% of tour events are won by players using forged clubs.  Ping, historically, has only made 3 forged clubs.  Blueprint is one-piece forged, and special because it means today Ping sees how valuable forged clubs are to better golfers.  In other words, it could be said, Ping disagrees with your conclusion even when tour guys tell ping designers they don't care about Cast or forged as long as Cast feels like forged... LOL  

 

Maybe were its not a debate worthy topic is none of us care what people put in their bag, cast or forged.  However, not caring doesn't altogether eliminate which material gets more attention from better golfers.  I am not referring to those paid to play Vokey or...  What amazes me - Blueprint irons have a 2-iron and a lot more expensive than my Titleist 620 per club.

 

If actual forged heads weren't that much better, Ping designers wouldn't attempt to align and label them Glide "forged."  Glide 3.0 focuses on game improve attributes so IMO isn't comparable to forged but Vokey 8620.  My last point is Ping is like Titleist, TM, Cobra and other OEM companies, they have a limited number of tour players playing their equipment.  Some are paid, others not.  How many play a given OEM product depends on revenue stream and desired OEM tour presences.   Anyway having family that was on the PGA and past neighbors still on tours, that's my thoughts.  Have a good day.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Pepperturbo

[sailfishchris]

After reading through this thread.... I'm glad I've only played Vokey's. Ignorance is bliss I guess ?

[Nessism]

1 hour ago, sailfishchris said:

After reading through this thread.... I'm glad I've only played Vokey's. Ignorance is bliss I guess ?

 

Me too.  I'm playing cast stainless steel wedges and love them.  Mind you I've also got some forged irons but I'm smart enough to know that the way they feel when I pure one doesn't mean they are "better" clubs overall.  Feel is just an esoteric thing, not a functional one.

[sailfishchris]

14 minutes ago, Nessism said:

 

Me too.  I'm playing cast stainless steel wedges and love them.  Mind you I've also got some forged irons but I'm smart enough to know that the way they feel when I pure one doesn't mean they are "better" clubs overall.  Feel is just an esoteric thing, not a functional one.

Ness, you've probably forgotten more about clubs then I'll ever know ! LOL!  I just like them if they get close to the pin for me!

[Noodler]

The problem I have with those who state that they feel forged is softer than cast is that they're not actually directly comparing the exact same head design, using the same exact metal, but where one head is forged and the other cast.  I would bet a very large sum of money that almost no one would be able to tell the difference between how the club head was manufactured, if the design and metal are identical, and only the manufacturing process differs. 

[PowderedToastMan]

8 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

 

May be the case for you, but I beg to differ with your conclusion.  I played 1018 forged wedges for many years before switching to Miura then Vokey SM6 since 2016.  Pings Stealth and Glide versions are more like Vokey with 8620.  However, Ping's Glide product line is designed to emulate Forged via cast, stamp forged using 8620 material, a harder material than 1018 or 1020. 

 

Ping has always been known for making durable golf clubs.  Forged isn't nearly as durable as say, Vokey's.  Here's a fact, over 90% of tour events are won by players using forged clubs.  Ping, historically, has only made 3 forged clubs.  Blueprint is one-piece forged, and special because it means today Ping sees how valuable forged clubs are to better golfers.  In other words, it could be said, Ping disagrees with your conclusion even when tour guys tell ping designers they don't care about Cast or forged as long as Cast feels like forged... LOL  

 

Maybe were its not a debate worthy topic is none of us care what people put in their bag, cast or forged.  However, not caring doesn't altogether eliminate which material gets more attention from better golfers.  I am not referring to those paid to play Vokey or...  What amazes me - Blueprint irons have a 2-iron and a lot more expensive than my Titleist 620 per club.

 

If actual forged heads weren't that much better, Ping designers wouldn't attempt to align and label them Glide "forged."  Glide 3.0 focuses on game improve attributes so IMO isn't comparable to forged but Vokey 8620.  My last point is Ping is like Titleist, TM, Cobra and other OEM companies, they have a limited number of tour players playing their equipment.  Some are paid, others not.  How many play a given OEM product depends on revenue stream and desired OEM tour presences.   Anyway having family that was on the PGA and past neighbors still on tours, that's my thoughts.  Have a good day.

I hear what you’re saying, but golf is filled with people who are stuck in tradition, tour pros definitely included, moreso than the average player. Traditionally, Forged is associated with premium and top quality. Cast is not. PING advertises their new drivers as having Forged faces because they know it’s a buzzword that people like to hear. They also know there’s a market of players who will only play Forged wedges and irons. Hence Blueprint and Glide Forged (both of which are tiny sellers for them and tour usage is not in the majority. Most use iBlade/i210 and Glides last I checked). 
 

While I agree that it would be a terrible decision for a company like Titleist or Mizuno to make a cast blade, it’s not because I think it would feel bad. It would be a terrible decision because good players in the market for a Titleist or Mizuno blade would be upset that it’s cast before even hitting it. It’s how so many golfers are. It makes me think of how many players I saw loved the Cleveland blade from years ago, but upon hearing it was cast, suddenly felt it was harder when they hit it after getting the news that it was cast. 

[driveandputtmachine]

5 hours ago, Noodler said:

The problem I have with those who state that they feel forged is softer than cast is that they're not actually directly comparing the exact same head design, using the same exact metal, but where one head is forged and the other cast.  I would bet a very large sum of money that almost no one would be able to tell the difference between how the club head was manufactured, if the design and metal are identical, and only the manufacturing process differs. 

 

Noodler, this test has been done with 8620 and was done with tour players and they could not tell the difference.  I will have to do some deep googling to see if I can find the info, but I remember it plainly.

 

The design of the head, the metal the head is made of, the shaft, the grip and the ball are all contributors, but not the process.  1018 and 1020(most common metals used for forgings) are softer metals than 8620 and all stainless varieties (most common metals used for casting).  This is a fact, not conjecture or opinion, but a scientific fact.  So of course forged heads will feel in general softer, but in a blind test, I guarantee Ping could make a cast head that looks from the top down like a forging and with their badges and what not make it feel like forged.

 

I know manufacturers "expound on the truth" but the SIM irons I am playing now.....I saw the marketing, sound engineer, test with tour players saying it felt forged.....blah, blah, blah.  I have a J40CB, Srixon 765, and I grabbed a couple extra shafts and shafted them all up and took them to the range at my home course.  There is the plain fact that I am a low launch high spin player so these type of iron suit me very well, but considering my last three sets of irons.....two of them were Bridgestone forgings and the other was a Srixon forging, I would say I have a pretty good handle on what a good carbon steel head feels like.  There was little if any difference, considering the SIM irons are some kind of stainless and have all kinds of tech the fact the feeling is so good is just shocking to me.    I got a couple of guys on the range to try them, and there are now three people I know ordering long irons from TM, because in their words, "they feel like a super forgiving forged head."

[evolvingwildes]

It's been mentioned a few times already, but forged vs. cast isn't necessarily going to make the head feel softer. My Cleveland RTX3 wedges (cast) feel slightly "softer" to me than my set of Honma TW-W4 wedges (forged). I chalk this up to the RTX3s being moderately chunkier by design compared to the Honmas. The Honmas do still feel great though.

[Pepperturbo]

On 8/20/2020 at 12:13 AM, PowderedToastMan said:

I hear what you’re saying, but golf is filled with people who are stuck in tradition, tour pros definitely included, moreso than the average player. Traditionally, Forged is associated with premium and top quality. Cast is not. PING advertises their new drivers as having Forged faces because they know it’s a buzzword that people like to hear. They also know there’s a market of players who will only play Forged wedges and irons. Hence Blueprint and Glide Forged (both of which are tiny sellers for them and tour usage is not in the majority. Most use iBlade/i210 and Glides last I checked). 
 

While I agree that it would be a terrible decision for a company like Titleist or Mizuno to make a cast blade, it’s not because I think it would feel bad. It would be a terrible decision because good players in the market for a Titleist or Mizuno blade would be upset that it’s cast before even hitting it. It’s how so many golfers are. It makes me think of how many players I saw loved the Cleveland blade from years ago, but upon hearing it was cast, suddenly felt it was harder when they hit it after getting the news that it was cast. 

 

Much of what you say is true, and the bold line is true as well.  If someone is used ot playing forged, finding out the next iron set is cast would be seriously disappointing.  Probably the same reason TM began offering forged.  Let me say it this way... I am a Porsche and BMW man.  When I am looking to buy a new car, I am not going to head over to Buick, Toyota or...to test drive. 

 

At one time or another, most good golfers, least at my last two clubs, hit cast demo clubs, including me.  Whether they buy them depends on their game and goals.  As is the case most mornings, I have my Vokey wedges, Miura forged wedges, and my 620MB PW (all configured the same) in my office to practice hitting real balls at a target net down the hall in the door frame of another office.  You could blind fold me after drinking three drams of my favorite single malt, and I'd still know which is the Vokey.  Many people might not identify the differences.  Vokey's are fine tools, been using them since 2016, but not a day passes that when I hit a Vokey wedge, I don't ask myself why am I still playing these when how they feel doesn't impress me, and I love the feel of forged wedges.  One things for sure, now that Vokey has increased their pricing, making them more price competitive with Forged, I may switch back to forged.

[farmer]

On 8/20/2020 at 1:24 AM, Noodler said:

The problem I have with those who state that they feel forged is softer than cast is that they're not actually directly comparing the exact same head design, using the same exact metal, but where one head is forged and the other cast.  I would bet a very large sum of money that almost no one would be able to tell the difference between how the club head was manufactured, if the design and metal are identical, and only the manufacturing process differs. 

Years and years ago, this was done with persimmon heads and laminated woods.  Painted them all black, no ID's, no one could reliably tell the difference and Ray Floyd preferred the laminate feel.

[Jack Pearsall]

He still plays forged wedges like epon, mizuno, macgregor,  but he's come to think it's mostly only noticed on his forged gap wedges that he takes full shoulder turns.

Since he likes familiarity with his short irons, given the similar feel on those shot types, JP likes the durability of cast for sand, chips and lob shots and the grooves last longer. 

The mizuno T7 and others with boron may be 'forged' but they feel less soft than non boron mizzie forged models. they are also more durable, groove wise.

 

the t7 gap feels about the same as his cast sm7 gap....

[bogeypro]

I bought sm8,  but sold them.   They felt like crap.  

 

I then bought HiToe... they are carbon steel with a nickel plating.   Fantastic feel!!

[Stanks]

Callaway Forged MD3 in 50º, I was a lot worse of a player when I had this but, it definitely felt softer than my 56º Callaway MD3. As soft as they were, I didn't notice any difference in durability / grooves wearing. 

Since then, I've grabbed my SM7s in 50 and 54 bent to 55º and have only good things to say about them. My Tommy Armour 60º VCG wedge is "forged" and is performing very well around the greens but, I built an MD5 60.08T and am waiting for that to arrive. 

I'll say this though, I love the look at address of the Ping Glide 3, all Cobra wedges and love the feel of them. Those are the ultimate, in my book. 

[Chuck905]

On 8/20/2020 at 12:24 AM, Noodler said:

The problem I have with those who state that they feel forged is softer than cast is that they're not actually directly comparing the exact same head design, using the same exact metal, but where one head is forged and the other cast.  I would bet a very large sum of money that almost no one would be able to tell the difference between how the club head was manufactured, if the design and metal are identical, and only the manufacturing process differs. 

So if you design a wooden head with the same design profile as the forged wedge, do they both feel the same?

[Noodler]

8 hours ago, Chuck905 said:

So if you design a wooden head with the same design profile as the forged wedge, do they both feel the same?

 

Now let's not get silly...

 

I already acknowledged that there can be some very minor differences in feel due to metal type, but not due to the manufacturing process.

[NoTalentLefty]

Don’t  most pros play cast wedges? I’ve had some Cleveland forged but overall my Vokey’s have been my favorite.

[Chuck905]

15 hours ago, Noodler said:

 

Now let's not get silly...

 

I already acknowledged that there can be some very minor differences in feel due to metal type, but not due to the manufacturing process.

The two manufacturing processes itself produces two uniquely physical characteristics under a microscope and NDE.

 

I’m not going to get involved with the physical characteristics that you cannot see with the naked eye such as grain structures, porosity , hardness rating, fatigue and wear etc. My engineering degree qualifies my expert opinion.

 

I play both cast and forged for different reasons.

[Noodler]

9 hours ago, Chuck905 said:

The two manufacturing processes itself produces two uniquely physical characteristics under a microscope and NDE.

 

I’m not going to get involved with the physical characteristics that you cannot see with the naked eye such as grain structures, porosity , hardness rating, fatigue and wear etc. My engineering degree qualifies my expert opinion.

 

I play both cast and forged for different reasons.

 

I specifically stated "differences in feel".  I won't argue structure.  The point of my contention is that in a blind test no golfer is going to be able to determine which is forged or cast if the metal used and the design are identical.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Noodler

[Pepperturbo]

On 8/23/2020 at 6:56 AM, Noodler said:

 

I specifically stated "differences in feel".  I won't argue structure.  The point of my contention is that in a blind test no golfer is going to be able to determine which is forged or cast if the metal used and the design are identical.

 

In just about every category of items where different opinions can bring about controversial beliefs, blind tests have been conducted.  A tour professional from feel perspective is not much different that a single digit handicap when it comes to feel.  It depends on what each person is use to and their level of attention to details.  Like being blindfolded and telling the difference between 105gr shaft vs 115gm shaft and D1 vs D6 or E0 swing weight.  I disagree with your blind fold test assumption, but I don't expect you or anyone else to change their minds. 

 

I've been blindfolded in red wine competitions, whisky vs single malt tasting and Cuban vs. DR and Nicaraguan cigars even some food tests.  Over the years, being in Wine and Whiskey society's and cigar clubs, where it’s important to know your preferences and why found myself in tasting competitions.  Either I was blindfolded on a panel of testers or product identity was completely removed.  What makes the difference in these type tests is who's funding/running the test and who's chosen to take part.  What nobody wants is Marketing/Adv or Product Development funding a blind test because they need the test to confirm their belief.  I am sure a cast OEM wouldn't fund a test where 7 of 10 testers notice cast from forged., because it wouldn't help sales.

 

It's easy to get the desired result in a forged vs cast test too.  Just pick people for the test based on their job, and answers to questions that suggest lack of discerning subtitles or don't have specific demands, strong interests, etc., all of which is easy to preliminarily identify by target questions.  Someone can be a 12 index and have highly sensitive hands, another a +2 and lacks sensitivity.  Remember the goal of that test is NOT to identify difference.

 

For example, a guy that buys cheap wine, lower end whiskey, and cigars, doesn't use any of them regularly, and someone that uses their hands extensively at work, like fireman, plumber, steel worker, construction and shop laborers, etc.  What you're looking for are general people that don't focus on details, and or abuse their hands at work, which leads to reduced sense of touch or sensation, or a partial loss of sensitivity to sensory stimuli, so subtleties of touch are not likely to be picked up.  Yet, to identify cast from forged at impact depends on how the product is made, the shaft, grip and users’ hands, etc.  Even professional golfers can fail at touch sensitively.  Ask someone on the tee after they hit where the ball went based on face impact.  Most people say I haven't a clue. Some people need certain materials to help them feel, swing weight plays into the feel area.  This is also reasoning most surgeon's and specialty MD's that play golf wear two gloves, to start they need touch sensation to tie sutures.  Many surgeons are so skilled they can tell the difference in sutures and surgical instruments put in their hands without looking down at them.  Again, I don't expect anyone to change their minds, but lots of people can tell the difference between cast or forged, Cuban vs Nicaraguan cigars, even what designation and region a single malt is from just by a sip.  Comes down to how serious a person is about their hobbies or interests.   But to each their own perception.

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Pepperturbo