Try to tell me it’s not ego

[Tree Levino]

6 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

You go to the well often with that chestnut.

 

If you consider twice often, then sure. 

[puttingmatt]

Unless it drops your score , or your handicap, all that  distance, is not a game changer, 

[scmgoblue]

I think this is a very fair point to bring out though, it screams of marketing to what sells: distance.  This is just like driver lengths slowly increasing over the years without any obvious advertising to that effect IMO.  A few issues/opinions:

1. A lot of golfers don't go for a full on custom fitting when picking out clubs, even irons. I've seen far more people walk into a store, grab several demo "6 irons" and head out to the range with the small bucket to try out clubs.  I'd love to see a poll of people shopping for clubs that has them guess what the loft of the iron they are hitting is, never-mind the length!
2. Similarly I'm amazed at how many people will buy a set of irons based off a testing session with a single iron from that set, off a mat and not turf, and pull the trigger.
3. Many golfers have no idea what their distances with each club actually are (this gets into the "hot face" or "that one jumped on me" discussion as well), on turf, etc.  I most assuredly was guilty of this for far too long even despite playing competitively through college, it's amazing how much more consistently you can play when you know what a yardage actually calls for and pull the right club out of the bag 
4. The loft makeups of these sets can introduce serious gapping issues throughout a set and not always just at the bottom, people who think they have a five iron and buy a 21 degree hybrid to take the place of a 3/4i are putting nearly the same lofted club in the bag (or in the case of a T400 5 iron, a WEAKER lofted club 😆)

Frankly I'd love to see an industry standard that says a "7 iron" is X loft +/- 2 degrees, etc, and leave this marketing game behind.

Edited January 28, 2021 by scmgoblue
typo

[dbelles1]

6 minutes ago, scmgoblue said:

Frankly I'd love to see an industry standard that says a "7 iron" is X loft +/- 2 degrees, etc, and leave marketing this game behind.

I’m all for this. At least for off the rack sets. It would help the golfer that goes in and tests without a fitting. 

 

What would the loft be is the next question? Modern traditional at 34° or traditional at 36°?

[FatThinShank]

2 hours ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

I think we've kind of gotten off topic anyways. My main concern is not timmy getting dupped by the OEMs. I just think the tech doesn't do anything until maybe a long iron? For all of the fast foam in the world the clubs go the same distance and produce the same speeds at the same loft...

I would imagine if you had an average 15-20 handicap do the same test you did you would start to see more differences. For a scratch golfer hitting a 205 yard 6 iron if you hit the exact same lofted irons and nut both of them they are probably always going to perform pretty similar. For a guy who swings 80 mph and doesn’t hit the center, those numbers probably aren’t going to be the same. 
 

I’m sure there are people out there who want super strong lofted stuff for ego reasons but I think the majority of people just don’t really know that much about the specs. I would bet if you went to an average golf course and asked everyone what loft their 7 iron is most of them wouldn’t know and wouldn’t care, this website is a bubble. 
 

 

[TwistedSister]

17 hours ago, FlyingLaw1 said:

I really wish I could buy a set of irons that had the loft stamped on the bottom instead of the iron #. 

New Hogans are that way.

[5 over]

2 minutes ago, dhacker56 said:

New Hogans are that way.

Not any more, unfortunately. I've been looking at them for quite some time, I believe they stopped marking lofts sometime after the reorganization. The last of the Ft. Worths were marked with club numbers, and the current Icons, PTx PROs, and Edges are all marked with club numbers. The earlier system of every loft from 22-62 is also long gone.

[TwistedSister]

1 minute ago, 5 over said:

Not any more, unfortunately. I've been looking at them for quite some time, I believe they stopped marking lofts sometime after the reorganization. The last of the Ft. Worths were marked with club numbers, and the current Icons, PTx PROs, and Edges are all marked with club numbers. The earlier system of every loft from 22-62 is also long gone.

Thanx for the heads up... 

[DaveGoodrich]

Somehow it just seems wrong that a "pitching wedge" is now about 2 clubs stronger than a club anyone would actually "pitch" with.  I've pretty much gotten over needing a gap wedge.  We should have asked "why is there a gap there anyway" a long time ago.   But its just stupid imo to have to have multiple gap wedges.   

 

For slower swingers, it would make more sense to keep the PW at a more traditional loft (you know, so its actually a wedge), and then use 5 degree loft gaps so that the long irons are strong, (i.e. something like 48* PW to 23* 5i).  For moderate swing speeds, that will yield 12ish yard gaps with only 2 or 3 wedges needed above the PW (depending on personal preference), and will leave plenty of spots in the bag for whatever hybrids, fairway woods, etc. are wanted at the long end.   As a slower swinger myself, my "ideal" set would have the 5* loft gaps, and blend seamlessly from GI long irons, to "player's" short irons.   Apparently that is that too much to ask, so I've had to build/bend my sets that way.    

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by DaveGoodrich
typo

[dbelles1]

28 minutes ago, DaveGoodrich said:

Somehow it just seems wrong that a "pitching wedge" is now about 2 clubs stronger than a club anyone would actually "pitch" with.  I've pretty much gotten over needing a gap wedge.  We should have asked "why is there a gap there anyway" a long time ago.   But its just stupid imo to have to have multiple gap wedges.   

 

For slower swingers, it would make more sense to keep the PW at a more traditional loft (you know, so its actually a wedge), and then use 5 degree loft gaps so that the long irons are strong, (i.e. something like 48* PW to 23* 5i).  For moderate swing speeds, that will yield 12ish yard gaps with only 2 or 3 wedges needed above the PW (depending on personal preference), and will leave plenty of spots in the bag for whatever hybrids, fairway woods, etc. are wanted at the long end.   As a slower swinger myself, my "ideal" set would have the 5* loft gaps, and blend seamlessly from GI long irons, to "player's" short irons.   Apparently that is that too much to ask, so I've had to build/bend my sets that way.    

 

How most manufacturers have it is backwards. Slow swing speeds end up having 2-3 clubs that are only 10-20 yards apart and the large gaps at the 8-AW aren’t playable for someone who doesn’t practice on in between shots.

 

 When was the last time someone didn’t like a short iron?

[Titleist_PT23]

29 minutes ago, DaveGoodrich said:

Somehow it just seems wrong that a "pitching wedge" is now about 2 clubs stronger than a club anyone would actually "pitch" with.  I've pretty much gotten over needing a gap wedge.  We should have asked "why is there a gap there anyway" a long time ago.   But its just stupid imo to have to have multiple gap wedges.   

 

I think you are contradicting yourself, although you seem to know that.  My point has always been it doesn't matter either way whether the lofts and associated numbers are weak or strong.  I need matching irons from around 25 degrees to 50 degrees.  It could be a 680 4-PW or T400 7-W2.  I always laugh at the PING G guys (and I play some form of the PING Gs most of the time) who have convinced themselves that a 23 degree 5-iron / 49 degree GW is the "maximum acceptable amount" of jacking.   The T400s are no worse than the PING Gs which are no worse than the 21-47 3-iron-PW, which are stronger than say Tiger's specs.  Hence, I don't understand why two, or even three, GWs is any worse than one (or zero)

 

Further, if I bent a set of Blueprints strong so they have a tad more offset like the 680s, no one would care (I would bend the Blueprint "PW" to 44, and then get to Glide Forged wedges at like 48 and 52).  But do the same with a different class of iron and it's a sin.  Similarly, I could play a Titleist 16.5 degree fairway that is often labeled "3-wood."  Or turn down a PING G425 "5-wood" to 16.5.  I can't imagine anyone would care. 

 

I know the traditional (high speed) iron guys say "they don't care" but it does seem like they actually care.  Maybe they just get tired of hearing people say stupid things.  Or maybe they actually do want people to definitively know they they hit their "6-iron" farther than the guys next to them would hit the same club.  I think anyone with half a brain actually knows this but given how many people comment here it does truly seem to bother them that someone claims they are hitting the same (numbered) club as far as them.  As an aside, how do all of these smart, good golfers manage to become buddies (or get paired up) with all of the moron hacks that can't tell a 20 degree "5-iron" from a 28 degree "5-iron?"  This itself may be the most interesting question here.

 

If people want to argue about the modern sets and stupid loft gaps (5-6 degrees in the short irons and 2-3 degrees in the longer irons) I will listen to that.  I actually don't think it's any better or worse that you may have a lot of clubs at 35.5-36.0 length.

[PorkChopExpress]

Love those egos about how far they hit or how low/great their handicap is. 

Win so much money off them it's not even funny

[sniper]

I saw this chart recently on Instagram or here. Can’t remember. 

I’m going on a golf trip with 5 other guys ans our HC’s range from +3 to 14 and our ages range from 21-44. I’m the old man at 44 and the 3rd lowest HC at 5. The +3 and I know all our specs and everything about our equipment, the other guys don’t have a clue. I’m guilty of getting my ego hurt when I’m hitting my 6 or 9 MP-18sc and another guy hits AP3 7 and PW. He puffs out his chest and I want to scream we’re basically hitting the same club. I don’t. 
 

I’m trying Arccos this year and I want to identify if and where my gaps are then adjust my equipment accordingly. 

 

[Aviador Naval]

^^^ do you know the date associated with that chart?  No axe to grind with anyone’s choice of irons or the inevitable march of loft jacking for marketing.  Merely curious...

[sniper]

1 hour ago, Aviador Naval said:

^^^ do you know the date associated with that chart?  No axe to grind with anyone’s choice of irons or the inevitable march of loft jacking for marketing.  Merely curious...

I believe the 1970’s. 
 

And like you no ax to grind, just posting as a point of reference. Obviously technology is much different now. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by sniper

[Radeon962]

Why I went to 5-PW years ago.  5 iron is essentially a 4 iron and I could never hit a 3 iron well enough to add a 4 iron to my set.  Just added another wedge as my GW is what my PW used to be.  Everything just shifted one iron stronger.

[5baytjd]

22 hours ago, FlyingLaw1 said:

I really wish I could buy a set of irons that had the loft stamped on the bottom instead of the iron #. 

Ben Hogan did that a couple years ago, and most folks didn't care for it.  You might be able to find a set of those on the bay.

[bnperrone]

6 hours ago, me05501 said:

 

That's another benefit of almost everyone carrying a distance device to the course. Someone steps to the box, shoots the flag and says "155." Each player knows what that means for them. Much less "What'd you hit on that one?" necessary. 

Oh, definitely. And I carry one myself caddying. In fact, I use the bushnell hybrid so I have basic GPS as well. Some people pride themselves on their memory. I pride myself on being accurate. But it's also a unique environment for recommending the correct play because it's oceanside so a lot of our guests get winds they aren't used to and the course itself is known for being very visually deceptive. It might be 155 but I might be recommending the 100 shot or the 200 shot. Not to get into the minutiae, but keeping the conversation focused on distance is the best thing for 95% of our guests. Cheers. 

[revanant]

Total agreement here. I proved this to myself a year ago, when I had the unique convenience of living in an apartment building with a golf simulator. Basically concluded that GI didn't improve launch, spin, or consistency, but did tend to drop spin on more strikes than my "less forgiving" irons. Long story short, they were just less predictable, which didn't improve my game.  
 

Personally, I thought this video kind of highlighted my own experiences on the monitor. I've shared it before, but it can be eye-opening for those that haven't seen it and automatically assume that any irons older than 5 years are functionally obsolete.  🙂
 

 

[joostin]

If someone asks what club you hit, it probably means you're striking well and they admire it a little, so you can choose to see it as a compliment (even a backhand one)!  You can always say "I just hit a nice little 7" if your iron distance wouldn't impress them 😉.  Then I'll add "I didn't get all of it" when it comes up short... lol.

 

Most casual golfers outside wrx probably don't have a clue about equipment specs.  It's just an annoyance we have to live with.  I guess you can say "7 iron 34 degrees" to help bring awareness to the ignorance. 

 

Ego boost, ego hurt, it's part of the game more or less.  Companies want to tap into that ego with distance claims.  As much as I'd like to see industry standard lofts it's not happening.  Since irons aren't on a level loft playing field, but drivers are... when ego is at stake, just make up for it by driving it 50 yards past em!  Or beat them with the complete game.

[Lobber]

Don't quite get all the fuss over this.  I am a 9hcp and distance is not a problem with irons or driver.  Scoring and putting are my downfall.  a 180 yd 7 iron means nothing to me if I shank a chip or miss a putt.

[pgatw]

Why does anyone care already. I write the distances on the back of the shaft below the grip. Soft, normal and ripped. When I get asked what club I hit from say 175 my answer is my 175 club. 

[Tree Levino]

39 minutes ago, revanant said:

Total agreement here. I proved this to myself a year ago, when I had the unique convenience of living in an apartment building with a golf simulator. Basically concluded that GI didn't improve launch, spin, or consistency, but did tend to drop spin on more strikes than my "less forgiving" irons. Long story short, they were just less predictable, which didn't improve my game.  
 

Personally, I thought this video kind of highlighted my own experiences on the monitor. I've shared it before, but it can be eye-opening for those that haven't seen it and automatically assume that any irons older than 5 years are functionally obsolete.  🙂
 

 

 

 

 

I like this one too. Same shaft length. Close to the same loft. Ever so slightly different spin and launch. Interesting that he was tracking the CG a bit too... whole other bag of worms there.

[Sean2]

17 hours ago, morrisminor said:

It's not just about ego or selling a set based on 7 iron distances though, its also about selling the customer extra 'wedges'.

The problem is the traditional set (4-PW) is dying out. Some 5-irons are 21º and the vast majority of amateurs can't hit a 21º club, or even a 24º club, so some might be better served starting their set with a 6, or even 7-iron, along with all those extra wedges you mention...and hybrids. 

 

In any case, it's just a number on the bottom of the club, and I don't really care. However, no longer can you ask what some guy hit on a hole as, for example, his 5-iron might be 21º and yours 27º. 

 

Everyone is obsessed with distance, so that is what the OEM's sell. Someone buys that new set of irons and all of a sudden he is one to two clubs longer, thanks to stronger lofts. For many golfers it is an ego thing. But ultimately the game is about scoring, not distance or what club you hit. So what if I hit a 6-iron and someone else hit an "8-iron"? At the end of the day it's how many, not how far. But given this distance obsession I sometimes wonder, lol. 

[Jakra1234]

23 hours ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

So I’m hitting balls into the net tonight with launch monitor. My dad has his clubs sitting there and has a P790 demo he was trying out so I decided to compare to my backup set. 
 

Club A: P730 6i lofted at 31* 

 

Club B: P790 7i lofted at 30.5*

 

Both clubs within a quarter inch of each other. 
 

Both clubs carrying between 200-205y repeatedly. Ball speed identical. Smash identical. Both are essentially the same loft. One is apparently a tech filled rocket launcher one is pure blade. 
 

Loft for loft, it’s smoke and mirrors - they’re the same. The difference is I’m playing 5-AW in one set or 4-PW in the other. 
 

If it’s not about telling your buddies that you smoothed a 7i 180 I don’t know what else to tell you. 

My batch of 770s (no loft changes), had all the lofts jacked up every which way >2*... could be that, but it also couldn't - I'm just pissed at TM right now

 

[the bishop]

3 hours ago, sniper said:

I saw this chart recently on Instagram or here. Can’t remember. 

I’m going on a golf trip with 5 other guys ans our HC’s range from +3 to 14 and our ages range from 21-44. I’m the old man at 44 and the 3rd lowest HC at 5. The +3 and I know all our specs and everything about our equipment, the other guys don’t have a clue. I’m guilty of getting my ego hurt when I’m hitting my 6 or 9 MP-18sc and another guy hits AP3 7 and PW. He puffs out his chest and I want to scream we’re basically hitting the same club. I don’t. 
 

I’m trying Arccos this year and I want to identify if and where my gaps are then adjust my equipment accordingly. 

 

Look at MacGregor, those rebels with their 49* PW

[Gsea]

Years ago when the Rouges were released Callaway had a demo day at my course. So I played in the morning and then had my appt. So I'm warmed up and actually striking the ball well that day. So the rep looks in my bag and sorta looks over and doesn't say anything. I have Eye2s in the bag. So he has me hit a few of my 8 irons and like I said hitting well for me, little 145 yd draw. So he hands me the Rouge 8 iron and I'm crushing(for me) with a little draw 165 yds. after the 3rd or 4th shot I turn and say I don't hit an 8 iron that far. The other rep there heard me and said you do now. I replied no I don't I'll just hit my 6 iron that distance. That was the end of the session 🙂

[revanant]

47 minutes ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

 

 

 

I like this one too. Same shaft length. Close to the same loft. Ever so slightly different spin and launch. Interesting that he was tracking the CG a bit too... whole other bag of worms there.

Thanks--that was a good video, and the Apex MB has some direct relevance to my bag. 🙂

 

I remember doing the math a while back and realizing that the only difference between my AP1 7 iron and MP-4 6 iron was a quarter inch in length. 
 

On the cg side, I've generally found I do better with a lower cg iron, but the Apex MB is a bit of an oddball. On paper, maltby has the cg at around .9, but I find the iron is basically indistinguishable from my MP-4s or old Hogans, which have CGs in the .7 range. Plus, Mark Crossfield was striking the MB pretty low to get his results, so I'm inclined to think it's an iron that actually has a lower cg than reported. 
 

Ultimately, all things being equal, I don't think I'd want a "7 iron" that spins at 4300 rpm on a good strike, if I can avoid it. 

[DaveGoodrich]

6 hours ago, agolf1 said:

Hence, I don't understand why two, or even three, GWs is any worse than one (or zero)

 

Obviously, you can call a 46* club anything you want. From a performance perspective, it makes no difference if that is a 9i, a PW, or GW2. 

 

But club names used to have meaning. Wedges were named for their purpose (pitching, sand, lob), and the numbered irons were for specific approach distances. 

 

But there is no actual need for a "gap" at all, let alone a gap big enough that it takes two or three clubs to fill.  We have now had to invent a new set of names for clubs that already had perfectly good numbers.  It's nonsensical and inelegant.

 

 

[Titleist_PT23]

2 hours ago, DaveGoodrich said:

 

Obviously, you can call a 46* club anything you want. From a performance perspective, it makes no difference if that is a 9i, a PW, or GW2. 

 

But club names used to have meaning. Wedges were named for their purpose (pitching, sand, lob), and the numbered irons were for specific approach distances. 

 

But there is no actual need for a "gap" at all, let alone a gap big enough that it takes two or three clubs to fill.  We have now had to invent a new set of names for clubs that already had perfectly good numbers.  It's nonsensical and inelegant.

 

 

But why then have you "gotten over" needing a GW?  Because it (the naming convention) truly doesn't matter.  The fact that you have a continuous progression of lofts that works means there is "no gap."  Instead, if it did matter, I would expect to see you grind off the current numbers on your clubs, re-chrome them, and label them "correctly."  If you aren't doing this, if have just proved that it really doesn't matter.