Club endorsements that undid their Pro

[me05501]

On 5/21/2021 at 11:19 PM, Ghostwedge said:

Remember seeing that huge orange PowerBilt staff bag all over courses back when, they made top of the line equipment. Their initial lines of game improvement irons weren't any more chunky than Ping and Callaway stuff.

That's on Beck not PowerBilt.

 

We all rewrite our life story to fit the narrative that feels most comfortable to our psyche. 

I like to think that I switched colleges because the first one wasn't a good fit, but the honest truth is that I changed to be closer to my girlfriend who ended up dumping me before the next school year started anyway. So rather than have to admit that to myself over and over again I have just decided that the first school wasn't a good fit for me. 😄

[flip flappy]

3 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

I'd love to hear the episode. Do you know how to find it or the number it is?

It is episode 105. I will post a link but not sure if it will pull up or not on the No Laying Up Podcast. It is long but is worth the time. 

NLU Podcast, Episode 105: Club Pro Guy | Podcasts | No Laying Up

[Vespar]

On 6/6/2021 at 3:42 AM, Righty to Lefty said:

After reading all of these posts...the fitters for these companies should all be fired!! The only goal of these companies should be to make the clubs visually appear to be the retail version.  After that all of the specs should have been tweaked to fit the golfer's needs in regards to total weight, swing weight, etc.  I am 100% confident that any reasonable club can be fit to suit a golfer's needs, especially if they  already have a previous club that was known to work.  The specs of any club can be replicated in another even if they don't look the same visually.  That is just a failure on the gaining company to not fit the golfer's new clubs to what previously worked for them. This is the same with tennis rackets where people really think they are swinging Federer's actual racket that they bought at retail when in actuality his may have the same frame, but is some 75 grams heavier once it it is set up for him.  

 I understand your point, but when you're talking professional athletes they are on an entire different wave length than what most can even comprehend. I have had professional tennis players tell me that a racket I had just strung with a state of art machine was a little two tight or soft- and they have been right. An Olympic female skier, who weighs 120 lbs, on an icey cold slope, standing on a 177 cm ( custom made) Giant slalom skis can feel the thickness of a credit card on the underside of the tail section of one ski.  A couple of years ago, myself witnessed KJ Choi after returning from a 10 minute range session tell the guys in the tour van the head of a driver is 1.5 grams too heavy to his liking.   We weighed it, he was spot on.  

 

Now when it comes to the intangibles like look or feel you can bet these guys have their opinion. And can easily go sideways with the wrong sound, feedback or look. 

 

For the consumer, they are not purchasing the same golf ball, nor the same head and rightfully so. 

 

 

[Ironman_32]

On 6/9/2021 at 7:29 AM, Vespar said:

 

Insiders refer to this as the "curse of nike"  & its not just limited to golf, signing a big contract with such an importance of winning at all costs and body shaping thru weight training often get the best of them WIE, CASEY, definitely Rory, Jason day the list goes on and on.

 

Body shaping they want a particular body shape, there's a reason Patrick reed doesn't have a NIke contract, instead he prefers to wear their close. 

 

I don't know if theres necessary a "curse", or if Nike necessary makes people get in shape to wear their clothes(players get in shape bc they think it will make them better). Patrick Reed lost his sponsorship with them because I believe his contract was up and he presented to many off the course issues. Let's not forget this is the same company that sponsored Carl Petterson and Jason Gore.  They're trying to sell clothes, so its more of a mix of having a diverse stable of players to reach more fans/sell more shirts. It's also about spending their sponsorship dollars wisely, figuring out things such as who will represent the brand best but also bring exposure and will have staying power. I think the story is Nike passed on Jordan Spieth because they felt he didn't hit it far enough and might not have longetivity/fit (guess they were wrong). They also do it in other sports, for example, in the NBA, Nike passed on Derek Rose because they thought his style of game would cause him to get hurt more. 

 

Let's also not forget that Lucas Glover/Stu Cink/Trevor Immelman all won their major when they were with Nike. 

[MUNIGRIT]

6 hours ago, flip flappy said:

It is episode 105. I will post a link but not sure if it will pull up or not on the No Laying Up Podcast. It is long but is worth the time. 

NLU Podcast, Episode 105: Club Pro Guy | Podcasts | No Laying Up

Thank you!

[Vespar]

8 hours ago, Ironman_32 said:

I don't know if theres necessary a "curse", or if Nike necessary makes people get in shape to wear their clothes(players get in shape bc they think it will make them better). Patrick Reed lost his sponsorship with them because I believe his contract was up and he presented to many off the course issues. Let's not forget this is the same company that sponsored Carl Petterson and Jason Gore.  They're trying to sell clothes, so its more of a mix of having a diverse stable of players to reach more fans/sell more shirts. It's also about spending their sponsorship dollars wisely, figuring out things such as who will represent the brand best but also bring exposure and will have staying power. I think the story is Nike passed on Jordan Spieth because they felt he didn't hit it far enough and might not have longetivity/fit (guess they were wrong). They also do it in other sports, for example, in the NBA, Nike passed on Derek Rose because they thought his style of game would cause him to get hurt more. 

 

Let's also not forget that Lucas Glover/Stu Cink/Trevor Immelman all won their major when they were with Nike. 

 

Yes, these guys won with Nike Lucas Glover/Stu Cink/Trevor Immelman. The irons they played with were the same shape  and in many cases the same forging plant that made them for various other manufactures including Titleist TM, wilson and others. Just a Nike stamp on the back side and a grind specific to the player. I recall a brew ha ha specifically Glover who won using a 4 year Nike driver, that was 4 models removed from production. Some manufactures will actually paint an existing previous model head to look like the new one with certain players. ( epic )  

 

Nike in hind site wasn't wrong with passing over Spieth, Under armor signed him, sales increased in the golf division for about 1.5 years, more styles were offered. But since then the UA has slowed down considerably. Their golf apparel is found stuffed on multiple racks in their own  outlets and discounted all over the web. The brand itself across many of its categories from Hunting/fishing to training according to some retailers has been dying on the vine. many no longer bother to carry it. Its never been a strong women's line. Newer brands have taken what market share they had when Spieth was winning against the best.

[Tdsjfb]

On 3/18/2021 at 2:46 AM, Thayneil said:

They make great clubs though

What Rose lost (besides confidence) in prize money, no doubt he made up in a signing bonus. He seems to like the MP-20s, eh?

[mat562]

Rose had dropped the MIzunos and gone back to his eponymous TM blades the last time I saw his bag.

 

[Fairway14]

The most money is paid to players for the hat logo (s), followed by shirt.  Clubs and ball dollars are relatively small, and for some players I think avoiding club-ball contracts is a good decision.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 6/12/2021 at 3:48 AM, Vespar said:

 I understand your point, but when you're talking professional athletes they are on an entire different wave length than what most can even comprehend. I have had professional tennis players tell me that a racket I had just strung with a state of art machine was a little two tight or soft- and they have been right. An Olympic female skier, who weighs 120 lbs, on an icey cold slope, standing on a 177 cm ( custom made) Giant slalom skis can feel the thickness of a credit card on the underside of the tail section of one ski.  A couple of years ago, myself witnessed KJ Choi after returning from a 10 minute range session tell the guys in the tour van the head of a driver is 1.5 grams too heavy to his liking.   We weighed it, he was spot on.  

 

Now when it comes to the intangibles like look or feel you can bet these guys have their opinion. And can easily go sideways with the wrong sound, feedback or look. 

 

For the consumer, they are not purchasing the same golf ball, nor the same head and rightfully so. 

 

 

You just proved my point for me basically because if that where the case then the easiest thing the gaining company could do is simply request to see and analyze the specs of a club that is known to work for that player and then work off of that baseline with the new sticks because the objective is to transfer previous success as seamlessly as possible to the new sticks.  So at a minimum the new sticks should be exact specs of old sticks and then from then onwards see if they can produce a performance gain by refining the specs with your brand.  

 

The KJ Choi story isn't as amazing as it seems if his previous fit had his clubs near the max that he could tolerate and that 1.5 grams became significant.  For example a weightlifter can lift a max of 200 kilos.  The kilogram difference between 100 and 101 is insignificant because it does not approach his max.  In contrast the one kilo between 200 and 201 is of the utmost significance because it is the difference between success and failure.  A golf club is no different in that at a certain point 1 gram will become significant and the golfer will become very sensitive to a small increase.  I found this out when I was fitting my own clubs when I got a lil bit heavy handed with the hotmelt!  I am a high swing weight and total weight player and found that F5 was what I preferred....and when I accidentally put an extra 4 grams in the pitching wedge I could immediately feel a massive difference from just a two swing weight point increase since they approached the limit that I could tolerate. The change from F5 to F7 was more significant than the change from E5 to F5 because a limit was breached. Even bringing the weight lifter reference into tighter focus, there is an exact point where a gram will exceed his/ her limit and a golf club is no different.  It is important to find these limits and then back off them to find your perfect fit so that future clubs must actually be better than what you currently have.   

 

Every professional golfer should have been fit to such a limit that yes, they can in fact feel a very small change in the spec of a club, but this is not a special gift...it is simple math that could be replicated in anyone. In my opinion looks and sound should have no relevance to a golf club unless for some reason it severely affects your ability to align it. You shouldn't even be looking at the club head anyway! I say this because feel of the CoG moving around you in conjunction with the total weight and swing weight are everything and the most important factors of a golf club in opinion and research.   The feel of the total weight, swing weight, and feeling the CoG moving in space around you are infinitely more important than a static alignment or visual look or sound of the a club in my opinion and findings. The weighting and CoG cues trigger the mind's eye to execute the task while our actual eyes are very susceptible to error. Just my thoughts and findings from my testing and research Vespar. 

[me05501]

On 6/12/2021 at 11:47 AM, Fairway14 said:

The most money is paid to players for the hat logo (s), followed by shirt.  Clubs and ball dollars are relatively small, and for some players I think avoiding club-ball contracts is a good decision.

There’s the money, and then there’s the support. I assume that staff players get a lot more help/attention from the guys in the equipment van when they need it. I’m not saying the guys in the van won’t help any player using their gear, but when it comes to prioritizing work I’m sure being in staff helps you stay in the front of the line. 

[Stevens24]

As i said above find a guy who is slumping and he has likely changed ball companies in the last 2 years. Rickie took a ton of money from TM and his game has gone to crap since. 

[jons1]

When you're playing at a level as high as these guys are, the margin of error between a good week and a bad one is really small.  Any small difference can be the difference.

 

Just think of the events where folks win by one shot over 72 holes... one shot is nothing.  You have to know EXACTLY how you're equipment is going to perform.

 

Changing golf balls, wedges, putters, and lofts are the most dangerous thing pros can do, but balls are the worst. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by jons1

[jons1]

On 6/15/2021 at 2:14 PM, Stevens24 said:

As i said above find a guy who is slumping and he has likely changed ball companies in the last 2 years. Rickie took a ton of money from TM and his game has gone to crap since. 

 

Rickie threw the kitchen sink at being a major champion and couldn't make it happen, and tried pressing further to get it done, and pressed too far and broke the formula.  Too many swing and life changes, and a new ball didn't help. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by jons1

[grm24]

On 6/12/2021 at 7:51 AM, Tdsjfb said:

What Rose lost (besides confidence) in prize money, no doubt he made up in a signing bonus. He seems to like the MP-20s, eh?

Signing bonus? Rose never signed with Mizuno and is back to playing his Rose TM proto blades.

[Dill Pickleson]

Nick Watney to Nike.

[MattyO1984]

16 minutes ago, Dill Pickleson said:

Nick Watney to Nike.

 

Ooft, he was definitely someone that seemed to fit the mold that he was in - Titleist and Hugo Boss clothes. Nike was a strange fit for him both apparel and club wise. Has never been anywhere near the same player again.

[Righty to Lefty]

4 hours ago, jons1 said:

 

Rickie through the kitchen sink at being a major champion and couldn't make it happen, and tried pressing further to get it done, and pressed too far and broke the formula.  Too many swing and life changes, and a new ball didn't help. 

I tend to agree. It amazes me how easily Pros give up their swing motion that got them to that point.  I get it the quest for better but anyone doing a major swing overhaul at the pro level is likely not making a good decision. 

 

[Vespar]

On 6/15/2021 at 2:14 PM, Stevens24 said:

As i said above find a guy who is slumping and he has likely changed ball companies in the last 2 years. Rickie took a ton of money from TM and his game has gone to crap since. 

Rickys over all game went, lots of blame can go around. But most of it is between his very own ears. His putting, irons, his woods has all disappeared, and whispers have crept in......

 

[Vespar]

On 6/15/2021 at 2:14 PM, Stevens24 said:

As i said above find a guy who is slumping and he has likely changed ball companies in the last 2 years. Rickie took a ton of money from TM and his game has gone to crap since. 

define a ton of money?

[Stevens24]

Couple of million. Dude was #11 in the world and made 3 plus million the season before the switch.  He hasn’t made a million in winning in either season since and is ranked 101 and not even playing in majors without a special invite. 

[MUNIGRIT]

Not Rahm. No issues with the switch with the clubs just tweaking the ball to get the right one.

[Rambler1277]

On 3/31/2021 at 4:05 PM, getair23 said:

He won the Open with Nike irons.  Signing with Scratch is what truly did him in.  Unless it was his deal with Jenny Craig that changed him physically and mentally?

I thought Duvall said rebuilding his swing to try and play a draw ruined his game

[GatorNate11]

On 6/6/2021 at 10:05 AM, SC-TX 88 said:

CPG and US Kids 😅

Truly one of the devastating stories in all of sports. When I think back on "The Streak," I can't help but that what could've been had he not made this change.

[GatorNate11]

I think it really is worth denoting that a correlation between a change and the sudden decline in play doesn't amount to causation of it. A TON of these guys have all had other major life events happen in the time their game suddenly disappeared. I think sometimes rather than wade into the muddy waters of fact, we tend to just blame it on a driver and move on. Are there some guys who sold out for money and paid dearly? I'm completely sure of it. But I'd say there are also as many, if not more, who changed equipment and saw absolutely no change one way or the other.

 

That said, I change a shaft occasionally so I have something other than lack of practice, dedication and talent to blame for why my entire game stinks top to bottom. 

[gioguy21]

I was thinking about this -- 

how much of a players success is ACTUALLY based on the clubs they're playing? is it at all possible that we're only giving them credit or their slump cause and blame the equipment?

I'm not saying equipment doesn't have an effect but, we all know this game is fickle. i have a hard time believing that a tour-level pro would be struggling to the point where they no longer contend b/c of a sponsor switch -- and have equipment be ONLY reason they're not succeeding.

i think we place to much blame/merit to the sponsors and the equipment companies...just a thought?

[PhilsFanDrew]

3 hours ago, gioguy21 said:

I was thinking about this -- 

how much of a players success is ACTUALLY based on the clubs they're playing? is it at all possible that we're only giving them credit or their slump cause and blame the equipment?

I'm not saying equipment doesn't have an effect but, we all know this game is fickle. i have a hard time believing that a tour-level pro would be struggling to the point where they no longer contend b/c of a sponsor switch -- and have equipment be ONLY reason they're not succeeding.

i think we place to much blame/merit to the sponsors and the equipment companies...just a thought?

 

I agree.  Form on the PGA Tour is fleeting for the vast majority of players.  Most simply will not be able to carry the same top echelon form for extended periods of time.  It's easy to point out someone like Justin Rose's struggles after switching manufacturers but does anyone ever bring up Jimmy Walker's struggles since winning the PGA Championship.  He hasn't changed club manufacturers but he fell off.  Keegan Bradley had a stretch of strong form, winning a couple tour events, Ryder cup, PGA Champion.  He's been with Cleveland/Srixon forever and his form fell off.  It's simply not like individual sports like tennis or stock car racing where it's normal to have less than a handful maintain form and dominate for years or even a decade at a time.   

[NetBogey]

On 6/21/2021 at 12:17 AM, Rambler1277 said:

I thought Duvall said rebuilding his swing to try and play a draw ruined his game

 I heard Duvall just talking about this the other day, he said it was when he tried chasing distance that ruined his game. 

[chipa]

I don't think the equipment has a whole lot to do with it I read that while the major club makes may have a player use a certain model it is anything but what is sold to the public. What the player gets is something that is smaller with less offset and if not forged at least 304 ss that can be bent very easily and is soft as many forgings. With some minor touches and grinding at address it's going to look very close to what the pro likes or is accustomed to. As far as the driver goes they are so adjustable anymore I don't know how a pro can't find a good configuration. Plus pros generally can use whatever shaft they like.

[MikeW2]

Looking at the Titleist new releases popped another perspective into my head. Many pros switch up their irons with each release cycle of new clubs. How is this all that different from changing manufacturers? So if a player is putting new irons in the bag every year or so, what would it matter if they are made by one manufacturer or another?