Rule that needs to be changed...

[jf72286]

Forgive me if this has been previously discussed, but...

 

It's ridiculous that a lost ball - when not on tour with spectators AND ball spotters - should come with a stroke and distance penalty as opposed to letting someone HONESTLY drop a ball with a one stroke penalty as close as possible to where they think their ball was lost. There are so many other rules that rely on the honor system anyway...

 

It would also speed up play...

 

I really think the USGA should change this rule for every day golf. Obviously, the tour pros rarely lose balls for the reasons stated above, so I understand keeping the rule for any tournament where fans/ball spotters are present. The crap the USGA lets pros get away with in terms of free drops (Bryson at every tournament) is comical considering that amateurs, who are far less talented, are being punished when they were watching and just can't find it...it happens!

 

I'm sure some of you will fight with me on this, but it's really something to think about...

[antip]

Nonsense. 

 

Golf requires you to navigate your ball within the boundary of the course from the start to the end of each hole. You lose it because you failed to control the ball, go back, play again and add a penalty. Think carefully about your proposal and you will realize it dumps this core element of the sport, turning the whole general area (ie the entire course minus bunkers, penalty areas and tee and green of the hole you are playing) into a form of penalty area. No thank you.

[Colin L]

The R&A/USGA  beat you to it.     Model Local Rule E-5 which was introduced in 2019 is entitled Alternative to Stroke and Distance for Lost Ball or Ball Out of Bounds and allows you to do pretty well what you are asking for, albeit at a cost of 2 penalty strokes.  One stroke would be ridiculous.

 

The Local Rule is intended for recreational golf. It's long and unnecessarily complicated but essentially what it does is it allow you to play from the fairway not nearer the hole  to where your ball went out of bounds or was lost.  The 2 stroke penalty makes it the equivalent cost to stroke and distance but in a guaranteed good place to play from. 

 

I don't know about elsewhere in the world, but you won't find it being implemented in competitions even at club level in Great Britain and Ireland.

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Colin L

[Halebopp]

2 hours ago, Colin L said:

The R&A/USGA  beat you to it.     Model Local Rule E-5 which was introduced in 2019 is entitled Alternative to Stroke and Distance for Lost Ball or Ball Out of Bounds and allows you to do pretty well what you are asking for, albeit at a cost of 2 penalty strokes.  One stroke would be ridiculous.

 

The Local Rule is intended for recreational golf. It's long and unnecessarily complicated but essentially what it does is it allow you to play from the fairway not nearer the hole  to where your ball went out of bounds or was lost.  The 2 stroke penalty makes it the equivalent cost to stroke and distance but in a guaranteed good place to play from. 

 

I don't know about elsewhere in the world, but you won't find it being implemented in competitions even at club level in Great Britain and Ireland.

 

 

You won't find it implemented even for general play in Finland (excluding one nine-hole course).

[Blonde Line Lizard]

Perhaps if golf courses cut the rough areas just short enough where a person could find their ball, many lost ball problems could be eliminated.

[MtlJeff]

I understand the rule so i'm not going to get on a soapbox about it, i just will say that if you have a course with a lot of OB it can be a real pain to play a stroke play event there. As a foursome even of low ams it can be like 5 hours which sucks. A lot of time looking for balls and hitting provisionals

[jf72286]

11 hours ago, antip said:

Nonsense. 

 

Golf requires you to navigate your ball within the boundary of the course from the start to the end of each hole. You lose it because you failed to control the ball, go back, play again and add a penalty. Think carefully about your proposal and you will realize it dumps this core element of the sport, turning the whole general area (ie the entire course minus bunkers, penalty areas and tee and green of the hole you are playing) into a form of penalty area. No thank you.

Don't get all high and mighty. I understand exactly what we're talking about here, and I still think it's ridiculous considering all the things that golfers (pro and otherwise) get away with that there can't be an adjustment for something like this...there are times when your ball doesn't deserve to be lost, and it's just not found...for whatever reason. 

[Hawkeye77]

9 minutes ago, jf72286 said:

Don't get all high and mighty. I understand exactly what we're talking about here, and I still think it's ridiculous considering all the things that golfers (pro and otherwise) get away with that there can't be an adjustment for something like this...there are times when your ball doesn't deserve to be lost, and it's just not found...for whatever reason. 

It has nothing at all to do with whatever subjective things you think pros "get away with".

 

To quote William Muny, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."  That's just a sense of entitlement you have which again, has nothing to do with the rules, let alone lost balls.

 

Speed up play?  No measurable effect whatsoever, IMO.  

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[Abh159]

Seems like this topic gets going almost as much as the "we should get relief from divots" debate.

 

I see no reason the rule as is should be changed, and saying the solution would be to drop where you think the ball should be doesn't really hold water. If the ball is lost then you have no idea where it is. That is the definition of lost....

[rogolf]

There isn't much new offered here regarding this subject - it has been here, there, and everywhere, and is now back here.

There is a link to the history below - note that most of the history and changes were tried before there were any significant professional tours, ie, it was being applied for "ordinary golfers".

If players want the benefits of play that the Tours have, play on the tours.

Lost, Provisional, Out of Bounds (ruleshistory.com)

Edited September 13, 2021 by rogolf

[Augster]

Didn’t E-5 address EXACTLY this for casual play? Why not just use E-5 and get on with it? Is it because it’s TWO strokes instead of 1?

 

There is very little difference between a 94 and a 95. Just take the 2SP and move along. One “extra” penalty stroke once in a while isn’t going to make any difference in your self-worth over time. 
 

I hope it won’t anyway. 
 

Much ado about nothing. 

[antip]

7 hours ago, jf72286 said:

Don't get all high and mighty. I understand exactly what we're talking about here, and I still think it's ridiculous considering all the things that golfers (pro and otherwise) get away with that there can't be an adjustment for something like this...there are times when your ball doesn't deserve to be lost, and it's just not found...for whatever reason. 

Don't get all defensive. You have an opinion about the way you want to change the game. My opinion is this aspect of the game is precisely correct.

[antip]

8 minutes ago, Augster said:

Didn’t E-5 address EXACTLY this for casual play? Why not just use E-5 and get on with it? Is it because it’s TWO strokes instead of 1?

 

There is very little difference between a 94 and a 95. Just take the 2SP and move along. One “extra” penalty stroke once in a while isn’t going to make any difference in your self-worth over time. 
 

I hope it won’t anyway. 
 

Much ado about nothing. 

Who cares about casual play? 

[Augster]

49 minutes ago, antip said:

Who cares about casual play? 

I agree. Do whatever you’d like in casual, daily play. 
 

The OP mentioned, “I think the USGA should change this for every day golf.”

 

It reads, to me, that the OP loses balls in every day casual play and wants a legal way to take 1PS vs the 2PS that E-5 provides. 
 

I’m with you Antip. Do what you like in casual play. 

[dlygrisse]

Rules are like laws. The fewer the better.  Just enforce the ones you already have in place and most of the issues will go away. 

[davep043]

10 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

Rules are like laws. The fewer the better.  Just enforce the ones you already have in place and most of the issues will go away. 

But the rules are stupid, they make me shoot high scores!!  I want lower scores, its critical to change the rules, because I know I'm not going to actually improve my playing ability.

[denkea]

23 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

I understand the rule so i'm not going to get on a soapbox about it, i just will say that if you have a course with a lot of OB it can be a real pain to play a stroke play event there. As a foursome even of low ams it can be like 5 hours which sucks. A lot of time looking for balls and hitting provisionals

I once played in a Golfweek tournament in SW Florida at a Fazio designed GC.  All the fairways were canted to each side for drainage.  Along both sides were palmetto bushes

.  

The 4 in our group were all 5 handicaps.  Before we teed off the committee told us that if there was any possibility that our tee shot may have run off the fairway left or right to play a provisional ball. 

 

In our group we played approx 30 provisionals.  Not much fun.  But the best was that play was only 4 1/2 hours.  And that was for a gross score competition. 

[jf72286]

15 hours ago, Augster said:

I agree. Do whatever you’d like in casual, daily play. 
 

The OP mentioned, “I think the USGA should change this for every day golf.”

 

It reads, to me, that the OP loses balls in every day casual play and wants a legal way to take 1PS vs the 2PS that E-5 provides. 
 

I’m with you Antip. Do what you like in casual play. 

I actually don't lose balls very often...I'm a pretty good player, actually...

[Imp]

On the same line of thought, courses need to clearly their penalty areas/OB.  Have played a few nice courses this year where there were no markers in any areas signifying OB/Penalty Area.

Hit ball over hill. Rolls into brush/stream that intersects the fairway. No markers? Oh, sorry, that's a lost ball. Hit slightly right into brush/marsh. Oh, sorry, that's lost ball. 

 

I'm thinking that they are enacting the model local rule without regard to the penalty associated with it. You can't hit a provisional for a ball that is known or KVC to be in a penalty area, and should really only get a 1 stroke penalty at the boundary/where it went in. 

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, jf72286 said:

I actually don't lose balls very often...I'm a pretty good player, actually...

As a better player you should embrace the rule.  It gives you a competitive advantage.

[jf72286]

21 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

As a better player you should embrace the rule.  It gives you a competitive advantage.

I get what you're saying, but I find the "looking for your ball and having to go back to the original spot" (especially when someone thinks there is no possible chance it's lost) to be a huge pain...

[jf72286]

I also don't mind if this "local rule" applied to every course...in essence, making it just a general rule...that you could take a 2 stroke penalty OR go back to the last spot for 1 stroke. The problem is that not all courses (not even close, as far as a I know) have this rule in place.

Edited September 14, 2021 by jf72286

[Colin L]

57 minutes ago, jf72286 said:

The problem is that not all courses (not even close, as far as a I know) have this rule in place.

 

There might be.a reason for that.

[caniac6]

1 hour ago, jf72286 said:

I get what you're saying, but I find the "looking for your ball and having to go back to the original spot" (especially when someone thinks there is no possible chance it's lost) to be a huge pain...

Usually , you can tell there is a potential for a lost ball when you hit it. Hit a provisional. Sometimes, you lose one in the rough, but that really doesn’t happen too often.

[davep043]

2 hours ago, Imp said:

On the same line of thought, courses need to clearly their penalty areas/OB.  Have played a few nice courses this year where there were no markers in any areas signifying OB/Penalty Area.

Hit ball over hill. Rolls into brush/stream that intersects the fairway. No markers? Oh, sorry, that's a lost ball. Hit slightly right into brush/marsh. Oh, sorry, that's lost ball. 

 

I'm thinking that they are enacting the model local rule without regard to the penalty associated with it. You can't hit a provisional for a ball that is known or KVC to be in a penalty area, and should really only get a 1 stroke penalty at the boundary/where it went in. 

It sounds like you've hit balls into Penalty Areas, as defined under the Rules.  If its a watercourse, its a Penalty Area, even if its not marked.  I agree, its better to have them clearly marked, but its not necessary under the Rules.

[Augster]

5 hours ago, jf72286 said:

I also don't mind if this "local rule" applied to every course...in essence, making it just a general rule...that you could take a 2 stroke penalty OR go back to the last spot for 1 stroke. The problem is that not all courses (not even close, as far as a I know) have this rule in place.

In casual play, your group can work as it’s own committee and use any local rules you see fit. 
 

Do you want to play all white stakes as red? Done. Do you want to play LCP in the fairway? Absolutely. 
 

Every local rule you put into place makes the Game of Golf easier to play, thereby lowering your scores, and your handicaps over time. Play with enough local rules in place, and you’ll definitely be a vanity cap when playing an event and none of the local rules are being used. 
 

We play E5 every single round. Hundreds of rounds since it went into effect. In our men’s club events, which has it’s own committee, they don’t allow E5. 
 

Forming your own committee for daily play allows you to play golf the way you want to play it. And have a valid score to post for handicap. 

[Imp]

3 hours ago, davep043 said:

It sounds like you've hit balls into Penalty Areas, as defined under the Rules.  If its a watercourse, its a Penalty Area, even if its not marked.  I agree, its better to have them clearly marked, but its not necessary under the Rules.

"Any body of water on the course (whether or not marked by the Committee), including a sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open watercourse (even if not containing water)."

Marshland where there's no definable water line, or where there are reeds/fescue/etc... that go from the grass, to the water. Generally stakes would be placed along the leading edge of the reeds. (Not the course in question, but a similar example.)

 

Using the definition of Penalty Area, if unstaked, means it's the water edge and waters edge only (even if not containing water will be a hard sell to say "it's where the taller grass/fescue starts by the retaining wall"). Between the rough and the water is ... crap. Most places used to have the stakes where the reeds/fescue met the grass. Remove them, and you're saying that's now a lost ball? 
 

Where does the penalty area start, when the committee decides to remove the all stakes from a hole like in the picture?

We have MANY non-defined edges for water here in New England. 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Imp